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MrNexx
2007-01-08, 12:19 AM
What's the result of using the various intelligence-boosting magics upon an animal?

Pretend for a moment that I have no care for money... I'm a DM making a weird encounter for my characters. I get a Druid's animal companion (a monkey, a wolf, pretty much anything), and give it an intelligence-boosting item... a circlet of intelligence +6. I then stick a helm of comprehend languages on it, and shove a Tome of Clear thought +5 under its nose.

It now has an intelligence of 13 (7 without the circlet).

So, it's no longer an animal, because nothing with higher than a 2 can be an animal, but does it become a magical beast?

What happens if, instead of using all this high-dollar stuff, we just slapped a Circlet of Intelligence on it, or an Ioun Stone? It's inteliigence is now higher than 3, though non-permanently...

Munchy
2007-01-08, 03:08 AM
I would say that the rule stating that nothing with an Int higher than 2 can be an animal is just poorly worded. It would probably be better to state it as "to be considered an animal the creature's maximum intelligence achievable by natural means is 2".

As for what to call it, I think the term "magically enhanced animal" captures it perfectly. After all, a human with the same Int boosting treatment would not be a magical human, but a magically enhanced human.

Pegasos989
2007-01-08, 03:08 AM
I don't know but because of you, my next character has to be a wizard, just so I can take ability enchancer -feat (ability enchancing magics are +2 higher than normal, so fox's cunning is +6) and cast that spell on a monkey, so I can tell the min/maxed fighter "This monkey is as intelligent as you. No, really."


I hate you, Nexx. I truly do.

cupkeyk
2007-01-08, 03:40 AM
an anthropomorphic animal in savage species are still animals right? but they get the 3d6 mental stats as normal. I played a monkey pirate once, in a joke campaign.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-08, 01:07 PM
I believe Anthropos are "Monstrous Humanoid".

Isn't there the Awaken spell giving them some Int(at cost of like 150 xp to the caster), thereby allowing you to "elevate" Fluffy to sentience, and thus getting a valuable new cohort? Awakened Tiger Knight riding Construct Horses anyone? :P

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-08, 01:25 PM
My first thought was to use the rules for an awakened animal whatever they are.

MrNexx
2007-01-08, 03:16 PM
Yes, but the rules for Awaken are (somewhat) clear... they actually become a Magical Beast, with the attendant jump in BAB, etc. I'm interested in someone doing this the hard way. ;-)

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-08, 03:20 PM
I can see making them magical beasts if the increases are permanent but then they would have to level up in magical beast to gain HD skills etc. sort of like multi classing for animals.

Gamebird
2007-01-08, 03:23 PM
Animals in my game range up to INT 6, so...

I've always thought the INT 2 was silly, especially given that animals can clearly learn more than 6 tricks. Also, as long as the MM persists in describing INT 3-6 creatures as being so stupid as to be unable to plan ambushes, work together, build things, or gauge enemy strength, then animals are (or at least should be) smarter than INT 2. Many animals - MOST animals - are capable of those things, especially the predators.

But really I only have dogs and pigs at INT 3, and one genetically engineered breed of super-warhorse at INT 4-6.

It's an intriguing idea though.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-08, 03:26 PM
I usually scrap the whole 'Int must be 2 or 1' thing for animals as well.

Usually I just don't give them a maximum; whales shouldn't have an Intelligence less than 10, after all, and they have the animal type.

I've even considered merging humanoid and animal into one type, but I'm lazy...

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 03:28 PM
Intelligence increases do not give the ability to read or understand languages (well, they do, but not instantaneously if you want to keep any sort of concept approaching realism). What you have is a very bright animal who can't communicate without being taught.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-08, 03:42 PM
Intelligence increases do not give the ability to read or understand languages (well, they do, but not instantaneously if you want to keep any sort of concept approaching realism). What you have is a very bright animal who can't communicate without being taught.

Helm of Comprehend Languages, my friend.

Pegasos989
2007-01-08, 03:43 PM
Intelligence increases do not give the ability to read or understand languages (well, they do, but not instantaneously if you want to keep any sort of concept approaching realism). What you have is a very bright animal who can't communicate without being taught.

Add item bestowing Tongues upon wearer.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 03:47 PM
Well yeah, okay. At that point...you've got an intelligent cat. It's still an animal, though, not a magical beast.

Gamebird
2007-01-08, 04:32 PM
And at that point, to drive your DM truly insane, insist that he role play a conversation between your character and the cat.

Missing Shoe
2007-01-08, 04:35 PM
Well yeah, okay. At that point...you've got an intelligent cat. It's still an animal, though, not a magical beast.
My question is then, what is a magical beast? What requirements need to be met before you go beast style?

The srd says:
Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) or extraordinary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities) abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 04:56 PM
A talking cat is bizarre in neither appearance nor habit; it merely talks.

Tibor
2007-01-08, 05:15 PM
On a point of curiosity what book is the Ability Enhancer Feat from?

Jack_Simth
2007-01-08, 05:32 PM
While for maintaining versimilitude for many people, you'll need to teach the cat to understand a language, RAW, it comes with one:

Intelligence: A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).(Emphasis added, specifically copied from This Website (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/monsters.html#abilities))

RAW, when you boost an animal's intelligence to 3 or higher, it suddenly understands Common, because no language is specified in the animal's entry.

If you need a rational for the RAW (houseruling it otherwise perfectly fine, but it would also be RAW to say that you can't bring the critter's Int above 2 without first changing it's type) the spell boosts intelligence partially by pulling required information from the astral (or the God of Knoweledge, or from professor flutesnout's head, or wherever; why else would a 2nd level spell be able to let a Wizard know something he didn't preiously - as happens with Knoweledge checks).

MrNexx
2007-01-08, 05:38 PM
And, of course, the assumption in 3.x is that if it understands a language, it can read said language, unless it specifically has the Illiteracy trait...

Pegasos989
2007-01-08, 05:41 PM
On a point of curiosity what book is the Ability Enhancer Feat from?

A dragon magazine actually (but well, it is 100% official DnD content).

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ability_Enhancer,


It is really a rather weak feat, concidering how few spells give enchantment bonus to abilities. Clerics would propably not waste a feat for it (though it would not suck for them)...

I think the optimal use would be for that PHB2 spell giving +2 to all physical stats, as it would now be +4.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 05:41 PM
While for maintaining versimilitude for many people, you'll need to teach the cat to understand a language, RAW, it comes with one:
(Emphasis added, specifically copied from This Website (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/monsters.html#abilities))

RAW, when you boost an animal's intelligence to 3 or higher, it suddenly understands Common, because no language is specified in the animal's entry.

If you need a rational for the RAW (houseruling it otherwise perfectly fine, but it would also be RAW to say that you can't bring the critter's Int above 2 without first changing it's type) the spell boosts intelligence partially by pulling required information from the astral (or the God of Knoweledge, or from professor flutesnout's head, or wherever; why else would a 2nd level spell be able to let a Wizard know something he didn't preiously - as happens with Knoweledge checks).

Remind me to never purchase Speak Language again, and instead grab potions of Fox's Cunning. That's two languages.

Awetugiw
2007-01-08, 05:45 PM
And, of course, the assumption in 3.x is that if it understands a language, it can read said language, unless it specifically has the Illiteracy trait...

Isn't that true only for class levels?

I can't find where it specificly states the literacy thing right now.

Tibor
2007-01-08, 06:11 PM
A dragon magazine actually (but well, it is 100% official DnD content).

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ability_Enhancer,


It is really a rather weak feat, concidering how few spells give enchantment bonus to abilities. Clerics would propably not waste a feat for it (though it would not suck for them)...

I think the optimal use would be for that PHB2 spell giving +2 to all physical stats, as it would now be +4.


The feat does seem to be a touch weak, especially compared to some of the metamagic options available. But still...it seems interesting.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 06:13 PM
Hey, hey, don't forget about Chasing Perfection. With the feat (and if memory serves) it'd be +8 to all stats.

Samiam303
2007-01-08, 06:23 PM
Remind me to never purchase Speak Language again, and instead grab potions of Fox's Cunning. That's two languages.

I'm pretty sure languages are calcualted based on the BASE ability score, not bonuses... no?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 06:25 PM
Then what they're talking about doing here (Headband of Intellect) doesn't work either.

MrNexx
2007-01-08, 07:04 PM
Don't forget the initial option... the inherent bonuses via Tomes (or, heck, even via a single Wish)

Jack_Simth
2007-01-08, 07:27 PM
Remind me to never purchase Speak Language again, and instead grab potions of Fox's Cunning. That's two languages.Doesn't work; other than the monster entry for common unless otherwise specified, there's basically just:

Action: Not applicable.
Try Again: Not applicable. There are no Speak Language checks to fail.
The Speak Language skill doesn’t work like other skills. Languages work as follows.
You start at 1st level knowing one or two languages (based on your race), plus an additional number of languages equal to your starting Intelligence bonus.
You can purchase Speak Language just like any other skill, but instead of buying a rank in it, you choose a new language that you can speak.
You don’t make Speak Language checks. You either know a language or you don’t.
A literate character (anyone but a barbarian who has not spent skill points to become literate) can read and write any language she speaks. Each language has an alphabet, though sometimes several spoken languages share a single alphabet.
(Emphasis added, table omitted, specificially copied from Here (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/skillsAll.html#speak-language)). The potion doesnt affect your starting intelligence bonus, so you don't get new languages when it's increased for whatever reason. The monster entry is a specific case; you don't have -1 languages when you play a human with an Int of 7 (one language for being human, -2 languages for having a -2 Int modifier), for example (at least, not under most DM's).

Then what they're talking about doing here (Headband of Intellect) doesn't work either.
It's silly, don't get me wrong. But then, so is a guy in robes squeezing a little bat guano and sulfer together and producing a fire that routinely roasts people alive. Part of the reason I specified versimilitude, rather than realism, and mentioned it's different for different people.

But RAW, something turned into a human by Polymorph Any Object knows Common (as it gains an Int score of 10).

But then, the spell does odd things with Knoweledge checks, too:

Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.(Emphasis added, specific text copied from Here (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/skillsAll.html#knowledge))

So if you cast Fox's Cunning on yourself, and make your knoweledge check, RAW, you're 10% more likely to have learned it in the first place (and thereafter need no roll for that bit of trivia).

Consider someone taking 10 on a Knoweledge check (well within RAW) to answer a question within their field of study. Suppose they have a +9 modifier (Int-14, 4th level character with the appropriet Knoweledge skill as a class skill, and max ranks, for example) before magical effects, and the question has a DC of 20. If the character makes the non-roll without Fox's Cunning, RAW, the character will have "never learned in the first place" and will be completely unable to later know it (even if subjected to Fox's Cunning afterwords). On the other hand, if the same character is under the effects of a Fox's Cunning spell when making the non-roll to have the same bit of trivia the first time, the character will have learned it previously, and will continue to know it forever thereafter (despite it being due to a temporary spell effect that wears off). With the text of the Knoweledge skill, it's clearly very silly that casting Fox's Cunning on someone before they have to answer a question actually helps. But RAW, it does; how many DM's would deny the temporary enhancement bonus from a Fox's Cunning spell to a player making a Knoweledge check (before reading the above discussion, anyway)?

[i]Fox's Cunning already breaks versimilitude if you think about it too much for people that are sensitive to that kind of thing. RAW, Fox's Cunning gives you a chance to gain knoweledge you otherwise wouldn't have. RAW, Fox's Cunning potentially grants an actual fox the ability to understand Common (potentially as the type could be ruled to prevent the Int from going over 2 despite the spell). Fundamentally, both are a case of a spell granting knoweledge that shouldn't be there. It's just more pronounced in the case of the fox.

Missing Shoe
2007-01-08, 08:10 PM
A talking cat is bizarre in neither appearance nor habit; it merely talks.
So unless it looks funny it can't be a magical beast? That doesn't seem logical (not saying that everything in DnD was). The way I interrupt the description from SRD is that once they go past 2 INT it becomes magical. It shouldnt have to change the way it looks or pick up some weird habit to turn into a magical beast.

Also you didnt really answer my question (and this pertains to anyone)...what do you qualify as a magical beast? What separates cats with boosted INT scores and other magical beasts? They way they look?

I hope not....although it would provoke some interesting conversations:
Designer: Here is the design for the new magical beast sir!
Manager: Hmm, yes. It is smart enough, but it looks to....normal. Give it a couple more limbs and a funny hat. Oh! And add a strange habit, say, at the start of combat it breaks into dance for the first 1d4 rnds. The PCs will never see that coming!

Bobbis
2007-01-08, 08:33 PM
I think I'll just throw in some epic humor here. Empowered Awaken (maximize and double) causes a tree to have 36 int, wis, and chr or an animal to have 36 int, and +6 chr.

Diggorian
2007-01-08, 08:52 PM
Unless magic is a part of it's form, this animal is simply under magical effects but not a magical beast IMHO.

I dont think it will inherently know Common or any language save the communication cues of it's species. The comprehend Helm will make anything clear though. Tongues could give it 2-way talking.

The first thing it may say is, "Please, turn me back.

"Nobody takes me seriously. I know too many treats'll make me sick. My bretheren lead pointless lives. I dont have thumbs. Everyone can see my junk."

:smallbiggrin:

Tibor
2007-01-08, 09:17 PM
Hey, hey, don't forget about Chasing Perfection. With the feat (and if memory serves) it'd be +8 to all stats.

Now I'm feeling like a Noob again...I haven't heard of this one either. Is it another Dragon Magazine feat?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 09:23 PM
Chasing Perfection is a spell from the PHB-II. Clr/Drd/Sor/Wiz 6, 1 min/lvl, +4 to all stats. With the Ability Enhancer feat, it'd be +6 to all stats.

Pretty much all-around awesome.

Tibor
2007-01-08, 09:26 PM
Indeed. That is pretty great. Saves the party having to buy all those belts and gloves and headbands.

Also combined with cleric persistant divine meta-magic cheese...ick.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 09:28 PM
Reach/Chain it, and it'll take a 9th level slot, but you can hit everyone in your party with it with one go.

Tibor
2007-01-08, 10:04 PM
At that point in time though you're spending 6 feats

Extend
divine metamagic persist
Spell focus Transmutation
Ability Enhancer
Extra turning
Reach Spell

Unless you use a rod for Reach spell.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 10:07 PM
True. So? It allows your party to spend their money on other things, and use their equipment slots for other gear.

Hyrael
2007-01-08, 11:32 PM
I usually scrap the whole 'Int must be 2 or 1' thing for animals as well.

Usually I just don't give them a maximum; whales shouldn't have an Intelligence less than 10, after all, and they have the animal type.

I've even considered merging humanoid and animal into one type, but I'm lazy...
The D&D creature types are not a genetic classification system. And much of it is rather arbitrary. A monkey is much more closely related to a human than a lizardfolk, yet the human and the lizard man are the ones who share creature types.

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-09, 12:44 AM
I'd call it a magical creature. It is a magically augmented creature, right?

Mewtarthio
2007-01-09, 12:45 PM
I think I'll just throw in some epic humor here. Empowered Awaken (maximize and double) causes a tree to have 36 int, wis, and chr or an animal to have 36 int, and +6 chr.

I believe you're thinking of Intesified Awaken.

Rockphed
2007-01-09, 02:41 PM
I'd call it a Magical Beast[Augmented Animal]. And in my opinion, the cat would just look at you funny, and go to sleep.

Pegasos989
2007-01-09, 05:10 PM
At that point in time though you're spending 6 feats

Extend
divine metamagic persist
Spell focus Transmutation
Ability Enhancer
Extra turning
Reach Spell

Unless you use a rod for Reach spell.


True. So? It allows your party to spend their money on other things, and use their equipment slots for other gear.

Also, if you are a cleric and the divine metamagic persist cheese is allowed, the feats extend spell (which can be gotten from planning domain, btw), divine metamagic and persistant spell are far from wasted - they are optimal. So you only waste spell focus, extra turning (can be avoided with nightsticks fron libris mortis) and ability enchancer (whis is also okay feat). I think reach spell could be pretty useful too. So it is not spending or wasting feats, just choosing certain ones that are mostly decent or better.

Gamebird
2007-01-09, 05:25 PM
Let's go back to the original post's topic. Casting Fox's Cunning or giving it a headband won't give it a language. But the Helm grants the ability to read anything before you and the headband presumably makes the animal intelligent enough to realize that reading the book might be useful. It reads it. It's smarter. Do you get language slots from an inherent bonus?

If so, then you now have a talking, intelligent animal. If not, you have an animal that's smarter than the average dog, but doesn't have a language.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-09, 05:35 PM
I would venture to say no. Despite being a permanent alteration of your base ability score, an inherent bonus is still simply a bonus, and pcs don't gain languages from bonuses.

EDIT: For that matter, they don't get skill points either.

Gamebird
2007-01-09, 05:54 PM
Hm. You could circumvent the issue by using the helm and headband to get it to read the book, then giving it an amulet or other wondrous item that bestows Tongues on it. So then you'd have a talking, intelligent animal who doesn't know any languages.

Theoretically at least, it could take class levels, because no one could argue that with an INT of 6-13 it wouldn't be smart enough. It would still be a RAW-legal target for being made into a familiar or animal companion, as well as animal-only buff spells like Animal Growth. Unless the DM rules that such augmentation no longer makes it an animal - and is essentially just an expensive way of casting Awaken on it.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-10, 02:43 AM
I would venture to say no. Despite being a permanent alteration of your base ability score, an inherent bonus is still simply a bonus, and pcs don't gain languages from bonuses.

EDIT: For that matter, they don't get skill points either.


Wha-? I know it wouldn't count towards retroactive skill point gain, but if you went from 17-18 Intelligence from either levelling or a Wish spell, I would expect your next Level up to grant you 1 more skill point than the previous one(assuming the same skill points per level from being same class or a class that grants such).

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 12:33 PM
But temporary bonuses do not provide additional skill points. Otherwise, every wizard would plaster Fox's Cunning all over his friends just before leveling.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-11, 12:04 AM
I thought FC provided an enhancement bonus(thus, not stacking with the headband), whereas you were talking about "inherent bonus", which I naturally presumed refers to Wish-granted ability scores, which tend to be "permanent". O_o

Thrawn183
2007-01-11, 06:36 PM
Chasing Perfection is a spell from the PHB-II. Clr/Drd/Sor/Wiz 6, 1 min/lvl, +4 to all stats. With the Ability Enhancer feat, it'd be +6 to all stats.

Pretty much all-around awesome.

What book is the Ability Enhancer feat from?
Pwease? :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-01-11, 06:44 PM
A dragon magazine actually (but well, it is 100% official DnD content).

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ability_Enhancer,


It is really a rather weak feat, concidering how few spells give enchantment bonus to abilities. Clerics would propably not waste a feat for it (though it would not suck for them)...

I think the optimal use would be for that PHB2 spell giving +2 to all physical stats, as it would now be +4.

This would be where Ability Enhancer appears: Dragon Magazine.