How upset would you be?

[JBarca]

Those of you in my campaign (Caedia vs Demons, party including the Half-Minotaur, the Blind Seer, the 2.0 Bard, and the Rocky Dwarf) should probably leave now.


That being said.
Greetings Playground. I've got an idea that I think I'm going to try to implement in my next session as DM (this Saturday). The characters are nearing the final encounters of the adventure arc, including the fight with the BBEG. Now, as of this point they have next to no knowledge of the nature of this BBEG (very unfortunate d% rolls on their divinations). I would like to give them a history of this character in a fun way.

My plan is this:
When they encounter the BBEG, he will cast a spell that he has created. The effects of the spell are supposed to be the complete deletion of all memories and abilities contained within a person's mind. Basically a SoD, but with some different flavor. The BBEG's DCs are... high, to say the least, so the players are not likely to pass. Barring a Nat20, they will likely be affected.

If this is the case, the spell will not function as intended by the BBEG. It will instead connect the memories of the caster and the targets. The BBEG will gain insight into the histories of the characters, and the character will gain insight into his history as well.

I'd like to play this out in a unique manner. I think I'm going to roll up 6 or so low-level characters of the same race (ish) as the BBEG, and have him statted up at a low level as well. I'll then run the players through a series of events from his early life that explain what is happening now. The idea is that the PCs will be viewing these events, not influencing them, but that the players will be influencing them slightly. They will thus gain knowledge without sitting through a monologue.

(Just to be thorough, if the players succeed on their saves, they will still be in the "present" world, and can fight the BBEG (protected by wards and minions, of course). Everything that happens could cause tremors in the memory-world, though the memory world will progress much more quickly (days or weeks per round))

Now. If you were playing in a campaign in which this happened, would this bother you? Would you be upset at losing a character you'd been playing, even incredibly temporarily? Would you be bored with playing rather run-of-the-mill, low-level characters in place of the early-teens, unique people you've created for a session?
And most importantly, is this a good idea? If not (or so), how can I improve upon it?
If you have any questions about this, I'd be happy to explain more.

Thank y'all very much!

[Segev]

This sounds quite reasonable, actually. It is a non-permanent "loss" of the character that isn't even really a loss. It's really just a temporary alteration to their stats and the plot they're pursuing.

It should be fine, I think.

[Psyren]

Rather than a researched spell, I would have it be a ritual/incantation version that more or less functions like Microcosm. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm)

I wouldn't use a save at all, because it sounds like you want the players to succumb to this so they can view the (interactive) cutscene. Or if you use a save at all, have the effects be will partial - on a failed save, the boss learns all of that player's abilities and weaknesses, whereas on a successful save he doesn't and has to rely on observing them during the fight. Then, have the boss or his minions, while they are trapped, set up defenses/abilities of some kind tailored to those weaknesses he was able to discover. For example, if there was an archer in the party, he could have some wind walls get placed in the room.

It might be faster, rather than rolling up low-level versions of their characters, to just apply an arbitrary number of unremovable negative levels to them while they are trapped in the simulation. That way they have many of their abilities, just out of reach and still feel imperiled - and when they get out you can simply restore them to normal. You can also have the participate in various combats within the sim while debuffed in this way, and learn about the BBEG through playing.

[ngilop]

SO if i save i have to sit out of the adventure for several sessions so the ones who failed can play a D&D within D&D


that would be ground for me calling you up and saying " ya know.. the idea was cool but not being able to play D&D foir the last month becuase you wantrd to create a whole new campaing instead of just taking 3 minutes to describe everything is boring. I quit, not like much my character can do anywya he made the save. let me know when the mini game and the overall campaign is over and I'll be happy to join the next one.. provided I actually get to ya know.. play"

[Kurald Galain]

I like the idea.

But, I don't think it's good if some PCs save against this and others don't; it would be better if everybody gets to play the flashback.

Also important is that the players should be able to influence the flashback in some way, so that they're not just watching the scripted events. Doing so would make the BBEG stronger or weaker in the present.

[Psyren]

The Protip here is: If you want the players to all fail or all succeed at something, don't even bother rolling for it. Or do like I said, and have the failure or success mean something other than avoiding the simulation.

[NichG]

I'm not sure there's really much point in playing through the flashback, especially if you're going to have things like fights in it.

Instead, I'd try to focus on information over gameplay and keep it short. It could be especially interesting if certain things don't work the way one would expect a memory-exchange spell to work - like if the players can get information that the BBEG himself didn't actually know by asking different questions of the people in that time than the BBEG would have, but that leads down a surreal path of 'we have to figure out what was with that spell!' that I know I'd enjoy but might distract from what you're trying to do.

[hymer]

Not likely isn't quite good enough. If there's five PCs, there's something like 23% chance that one of them rolls a 20. Psyren's got it right.

As for whether I'd be upset? No, probably not. But there's some worry I'd be bored out of my skull. Here I thought I was going to be playing my own character, which I really like, having made them and played them so long. But it turns out I'll be playing some NPC, in a super-railroad one-shot? Boo-ooring.

It's a cute idea. But for the whole pantheon's sake, keep it short if your players are anything like me.

[Composer99]

The notion of an extended sequence of flashbacks - including having the players control the younger BBEG & its associates - seems interesting. (I'm reminded of flashback sequences in various Final Fantasy games.) If I was a player I would find definitely be into it.

I would suggest getting buy-in from the players on implementing the flashbacks as you have suggested in the OP.

If they are not sufficiently interested in a long interlude in which they gain insight into the BBEG by running other characters, you may simply have to engage in some exposition. Or schedule a "cliffhanger" break (for a meal or snack, or what have you) and hand out a brief written summary to each player to read.

However, if you implement this flashback sequence, as others have said I would strongly recommend against making it so that players only participate in the flashbacks if they fail the save.

Rather, it would be better for the saves to alter the course of the battle after the flashbacks are over:
- you could set, say, a default "global" state if everyone fails, and modify it (in the PCs' favour) for each succesful save.
- alternately, succeeding at the save means PCs who do get some special insight against the BBEG, giving them some kind of bonus once the flashbacks end.

[Marlowe]

I think it's clever and I did something like this once. But don't roll for the save. It just happens. Otherwise, the entire plan's going to be derailed because somebody will get a 20, as plenty of people have said.

Also, make sure they get lots of xp for this. The experience of playing another person ought to be worth a lot.

[Yawgmoth]

Rule 1: Never roll for anything unless all outcomes are interesting.

Rule 2: Never take away player agency unless the player(s) is/are okay with it ahead of time. Yes, that might mean in this instance that a little bit of your big reveal is spoiled. But it sure beats the pants off having a part of your table get up and leave because they aren't having fun.

Rule 3: If your players can't influence it, it probably shouldn't be there. This ties in with 1 and 2 quite a bit.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It depends on your players. If they're the type who generally follow the plot without arguing, then yeah, go for it! It sounds like a really cool idea for a session. (Though I agree with those saying "don't allow saving throws")

If you have players who like to assert their independence/trash the plot just because they can... then you might have a bit of an issue with a session of limited input.

Two ideas to make it go a little more smoothly, one for each type of group:

For the first group, have them play as the BBEG's lieutenants, back in the day. That gives everyone a bit more freedom. It also lets you tell your players to roll up a level 6 (race), which means less work for you and no-one whining about not getting a character they liked.
For the second group, have their actions inside the "flashback" literally change the BBEG's memories. Give them the chance to reform him, drive him mad, or-- if they screw up-- become even worse. This requires you to forfeit future encounters with the dude, though.

[JBarca]

Thanks for all of the advice!

I'm now in agreement... The saving throw will be dropped (or modified to ensure no lack of participation).

My idea was to have them play Lieutenants, actually, so that's good.

I doubt the players will try overmuch to "mess" with the plot... They're a very RP/plot centric lot, willing to do a lot just for the story, rather than benefits for their characters.

I'm probably going to stay away from the Negative levels concept. The idea is that the characters are witnessing actual memories of the BBEG, not being Christmas Carol-esque "viewers."

Again, thank you all for the advice. I feel as if the overall view is a positive one, so I feel more comfortable utilizing this tactic (modified as per the general consensus here, of course).

[Trasilor]

I know I am coming a bit late but...I would hate this, unless I believed my actions had an impact.

I am reminded of a game where the DM talked for an hour describing the unfolding cut scene. It was horrible...

Understand that free time is very precious to me due to work, kids, responsibilities (etc). Spending a few hours a every 2 weeks to play is about all I can get. I created a character that I would be interested in playing. I have invested my time and energy into that character. If the DM said, "here's this other character that I made for you to play so you can help me unfold this cut scene so you can 'learn' about the BBEG past", I would hate it.

Now, if I am allowed to change the memories (i.e. my character can influence the scene) in such a way that actually helps my character's cause (defeat BBEG) then I would be less annoyed

But to be honest, this sounds too much like railroading.

[Captnq]

Don't.

Why?

I doubt you'll pull it off.

What you are talking about is a one shot. And one shots can be fun, but the players want to play PCs that they made, not PCs that you made. They can get powers or XPs or crap out of this, but it's railroading and it's a one shot.

Yes, This concept is explored time and time again. Look at all the best DM/GM/ST guides and they all talk about this sort of thing. How it's amazing. Blah Blah Blah.

I suspect that the advice was given by those who did not use it themselves.

but it sounds like you want to push ahead. Here's my advice. Ask yourself: Do you read over your notes and marvel at how amazing you are? How this is the perfect solution to what you have been building up to? How this makes everything fall together?

Do you LOVE this idea?

If the answer is yes, you REALLY need to step back.

In my personal experience, and the experience of other DMs/GMs/STs that I have talked to over the years, all the truely horrible gaming sessions began with an idea that the DM/GM/ST LOVED. Loving an idea blinds you to the truth.

A DM should never love his work more then the players he hopes to entertain. He should be prepared to destroy everything he has built on a moment's notice. Tear everything down and start from scratch without hesitation. If there is something that you HAVE to have, If there is an idea that you just GOT to run, then you really, REALLY need to look at that idea super close, get an expert to review your notes, run it past your players, and most likely, shelve the whole thing.

But, if you are going to push ahead, ask your players first. Seriously. I don't care if it ruins the surprise. Ask them. "Hi. I'd like to run a one shot. It'll be kinda scripted. You will get some benefit for your PC afterwords. Are you cool with that?"

Maybe it'll work. Maybe they'll be okay with it. Its a big universe. Many possibilities out there.

[Chronos]

Don't do it. If you allow the players to influence what happens in the dream-story, then they will twist it beyond all recognition, and probably render the "real" BBEG completely nonsensical. And if you don't allow them to influence it, then it ceases to be a game, and becomes the DM's own private story time, which is not how these guys want to spend their Friday evenings. There is no good outcome.

[TuggyNE]

Ask yourself: Do you read over your notes and marvel at how amazing you are? How this is the perfect solution to what you have been building up to? How this makes everything fall together?

Do you LOVE this idea?

If the answer is yes, you REALLY need to step back.

In my personal experience, and the experience of other DMs/GMs/STs that I have talked to over the years, all the truely horrible gaming sessions began with an idea that the DM/GM/ST LOVED. Loving an idea blinds you to the truth.

A DM should never love his work more then the players he hopes to entertain. He should be prepared to destroy everything he has built on a moment's notice. Tear everything down and start from scratch without hesitation. If there is something that you HAVE to have, If there is an idea that you just GOT to run, then you really, REALLY need to look at that idea super close, get an expert to review your notes, run it past your players, and most likely, shelve the whole thing.

This is excellent advice, and similar to that given to writers: "Kill your babies". If there's one passage or concept or plot contrivance or character you just love to death and that is super-awesome and wonderful… throw it away and rewrite those parts from the ground up.

[Twilightwyrm]

I wouldn't have much of a problem with it, indeed, I think it would be rather fun. As others have noted, however, make it a lengthy ritual type deal, with no, or partial, save. That way you don't have to go out of your way to buff the BBEG's DCs, and players that somehow make the save (one of them most likely will). If your players are particularly nervous about it, I don't think the meta-gaming involved would be harmful enough to the campaign that you couldn't just reassure them that this (most likely) is a temporary thing, without any negative repercussions.

[Phelix-Mu]

It pretty much depends on the length of the series of flashbacks, in my mind. If it all comes to a couple of hours worth of mildly interactive vignettes, then I bet the players can handle it and it won't turn into "the hours that ruined the whole campaign."

If it's running a full session or more as the flashbacks, then it is starting to kill the main story. While knowing about the past is useful and interesting, it often fails to be more interesting than just playing the game as normal.

Now, I think there is the core of a good idea here, but it would require much more work to make it into something both dynamic and interesting. Essentially, I'd consider the possibility of

1.) BBEG unleashes his ritual of badass plot device on the players. This resolves somehow, possibly after a nice big fight with minions and minibosses to attempt to stop the ritual. The session ends with the ritual taking effect.

2.) Start of false time/imaginary world. The party exists in a microcosm, and can interact with each other and the world, hoping to find a way out, but essentially stuck. Investigation and role play; perhaps set in a kind of demi-plane or shade of the real world...maybe this is some kind of dreamscape set in the realm of the BBEG's consciousness. I can see a number of ways to go with this.

3.) Have the players start new characters for a one-shot intermission from the campaign. It starts out seeming to be totally unrelated, but eventually they meet a younger version of the BBEG and get to interact/befriend/attempt to kill him/her/it.

4.) The one-shot party has a chance to leave messages of some sort for the original party to find while they are trapped. Perhaps they find some sort of weakness or the like, or are witness to some part of the BBEG's evil plan that sheds light on the plight of the original party.

I may try to incorporate some part of this concept into a time-travel bit that has been knocking around in my brain for a while.

[NichG]

Personally for this kind of thing if you're up for the surreal, I like the idea that things changed in the past in specific ways actually stay changed, but specifically with regards to the BBEG.

That is to say, if you convince the BBEG to have a change of heart in the past, the spell manipulates his timeline in such a way that he has that change of heart back in the present. It can be ambiguous whether this is because he 'remembers' it that way, or because time has actually changed. I would probably change everyone's memories - even those not involved in the spell - but not the physical world, with the explanation that the spell causes 'interference in the akashic record'.

This also makes the ritual make more sense, so its not just all 'the BBEG screwed up and was ineffectual'. Maybe the BBEG is also trying to do something by manipulating people's memories of the past and the PCs arriving give them the chance to interfere. It would be nice if the PCs had some way of confirming that changes actually do matter (perhaps it alters their own memories immediately when they enact a change).

If doing that, I would suggest to as best possible allow your characters to keep their personalities and style. Make it more like they're spirits possessing bodies in that present with full awareness of themselves, so they can directly try to make changes and see what happens.

Also prepare for someone going 'if we change the timeline enough, the spell will break'.

[3Power]

I would say there's no reason to make new characters for them. You're sending them into someone's mind, so just have the BBEG within the mind be delusional and have him see the characters as people from his past. If things happened a certain way then let the dream warp reality to make up for it. If the wizard fireballs a group of bad guys that were supposed to be stabbed, have the dream change the charred corpses to the proper state. If he fireballs someone that never died, have the dream revive him as he stands. You can also add defenses into the dream, things like shadow creatures that represent the brain fighting the foreign influences off. You can even have it as a goal that they need to make things in the memory happen like they were supposed to, otherwise it loops or spawns dream monsters.

[ahenobarbi]

[I] probably wouldn't like it. Because it no longer sounds like the game I agreed to play. Now if you managed to keep game somewhat more gamey... I wouldn't mind. For example describe a short scene, with PCs acting as persons from BBEG past. Then have them realize who they really are & let them beat surprised/weakened BBEG. And have it influence present (XP, extra knowledge, visibly weakened BBEG, ...).

[Enguebert]

Seems you really want that the players learns more about the BBEG story

If you want your players having fun :
1) they must participate
2) what they do must have an impact on final fight


=> That means no saving on being trapped in the "mind story".
=> Have each episode of BBEG life have effect on final fight

Let say they arrive against the BBEG. He is there with 6 lieutenants and some minor minions.
Make them save against the special spell. Those who make the save have 1 round of surprise against the minions (and only the minions) because everyone expect to see them be out of combat. Then then fall to the mind story (basically making the save just delay the effect, giving them a small advantage)

Then in the mind story, have 3 or 4 chapter. In each chapter, they have predefined char that face the BBEG and one of his lieutenants.
If they succeed the chapter, the lieutenant is out for the final fight (or replaced by a simple monster or a weakest opponent).
Ex1 : BBEG try to recruit a dark knight to be chief of his army.
If BBEG succeed, he has the dark knight for lieutenant. If he fails, he has a fighter with CR-2 than the dark knight

Ex2 : BBEG want a pet. He want a dire lion. He succeed, he has the lion. He fails, he has nothing

So you describe all opponent BEFORE the spell, and after each chapter, you describe the new final scene (removing one lieutenant, or replacing by a weaker figure).

Ideally, the initial scene should looks like it will be a pure TPK and first story would be easy so players quickly knows that the "mind story" will be a way to reduce difficulty of final fight

[Angelalex242]

This almost sounds like an old 2E Ravenloft adventure called 'roots of evil'. Azalin the Archlich sends the PCS into the bodies of random soldiers in the distant past, and they use a 'word of banishment' on a yugoloth to prevent Strahd from making a deal with him.

[molten_dragon]

Those of you in my campaign (Caedia vs Demons, party including the Half-Minotaur, the Blind Seer, the 2.0 Bard, and the Rocky Dwarf) should probably leave now.


That being said.
Greetings Playground. I've got an idea that I think I'm going to try to implement in my next session as DM (this Saturday). The characters are nearing the final encounters of the adventure arc, including the fight with the BBEG. Now, as of this point they have next to no knowledge of the nature of this BBEG (very unfortunate d% rolls on their divinations). I would like to give them a history of this character in a fun way.

My plan is this:
When they encounter the BBEG, he will cast a spell that he has created. The effects of the spell are supposed to be the complete deletion of all memories and abilities contained within a person's mind. Basically a SoD, but with some different flavor. The BBEG's DCs are... high, to say the least, so the players are not likely to pass. Barring a Nat20, they will likely be affected.

If this is the case, the spell will not function as intended by the BBEG. It will instead connect the memories of the caster and the targets. The BBEG will gain insight into the histories of the characters, and the character will gain insight into his history as well.

I'd like to play this out in a unique manner. I think I'm going to roll up 6 or so low-level characters of the same race (ish) as the BBEG, and have him statted up at a low level as well. I'll then run the players through a series of events from his early life that explain what is happening now. The idea is that the PCs will be viewing these events, not influencing them, but that the players will be influencing them slightly. They will thus gain knowledge without sitting through a monologue.

(Just to be thorough, if the players succeed on their saves, they will still be in the "present" world, and can fight the BBEG (protected by wards and minions, of course). Everything that happens could cause tremors in the memory-world, though the memory world will progress much more quickly (days or weeks per round))

Now. If you were playing in a campaign in which this happened, would this bother you? Would you be upset at losing a character you'd been playing, even incredibly temporarily? Would you be bored with playing rather run-of-the-mill, low-level characters in place of the early-teens, unique people you've created for a session?
And most importantly, is this a good idea? If not (or so), how can I improve upon it?
If you have any questions about this, I'd be happy to explain more.

Thank y'all very much!

As everyone else has said, don't give them a save against it. If some save and the other's don't, you're going to have part of the group trying to fight the BBEG alone and probably not doing well. Just have everyone affected with no save.

And make sure you keep it short. People could get bored if it drags on for a long time.

Other than that it sounds like an interesting idea.

I'd also maybe have the BBEG affected and along for the ride too, and if they players are successful in 'changing' something in the memories, maybe have him slightly debuffed for the final fight (shaken would be a good choice, and is thematically appropriate).

[QuixTen]

In my personal experience, and the experience of other DMs/GMs/STs that I have talked to over the years, all the truely horrible gaming sessions began with an idea that the DM/GM/ST LOVED. Loving an idea blinds you to the truth.

A DM should never love his work more then the players he hopes to entertain. He should be prepared to destroy everything he has built on a moment's notice. Tear everything down and start from scratch without hesitation. If there is something that you HAVE to have, If there is an idea that you just GOT to run, then you really, REALLY need to look at that idea super close, get an expert to review your notes, run it past your players, and most likely, shelve the whole thing.

This was fantastically worded. I'd love to use it in my sig, but, ya know, it's too long :smallfrown: