Building for the sake of Building: The ultimate dipping build.

[Kerim]

So...

I have just been wondering: If you were to only be capable of taking 1 level per class (including 1 LA, and 1 Racial Hit Die.), what would be the best build you could get for yourself? (Prestige Classes, of course, are allowed.)

Let's say level 20, and allow LA buyoff, for a character with 20 levels, and 1 LA. What would you build for such a character? It can be with any intent: Versatility, plain power, some sort of exploit you can manage with such a build.

Stats: all 14's, one 18.

[dysprosium]

I love dipping threads!

Here is a casting dipper that I would like to play one day:

Beguiler 1/Conjurer 1/Master Specialist 1/Rogue 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Visionary Seeker 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 1/Geometer 1/Mindbender 1/Unseen Seer 1/Fatespinner 1/Wayfarer Guide 1/Incantrix 1/Arcane Trickster 1/Arcane Devotee 1/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Divine Oracle 1/Loremaster 1/Elemental Savant 1/Archmage 1

Spell Progression and Caster Level Wizard 17
Spell Progression and Caster Level Beguiler 2

Assuming Human (with no flaws) Feat Progression
1: Spell Focus (conjuration), Versatile Spellcaster
2: Scribe Scroll (B)
3: Enlarge Spell, Skill Focus (spellcraft) (B)
6: Cooperative Spell
9: Mindsight
12: Iron Will
13: Quicken Spell
15: Skill Focus (knowledge [religion])
18: Energy Substitution (to taste), Spell Focus (transmutation)


at Level 20: BAB +0, Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +36

[Zombulian]

I love dipping threads!

Here is a casting dipper that I would like to play one day:

Beguiler 1/Conjurer 1/Master Specialist 1/Rogue 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Visionary Seeker 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 1/Geometer 1/Mindbender 1/Unseen Seer 1/Fatespinner 1/Wayfarer Guide 1/Incantrix 1/Arcane Trickster 1/Arcane Devotee 1/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Divine Oracle 1/Loremaster 1/Elemental Savant 1/Archmage 1

Spell Progression and Caster Level Wizard 17
Spell Progression and Caster Level Beguiler 2

Assuming Human (with no flaws) Feat Progression
1: Spell Focus (conjuration), Versatile Spellcaster
2: Scribe Scroll (B)
3: Enlarge Spell, Skill Focus (spellcraft) (B)
6: Cooperative Spell
9: Mindsight
12: Iron Will
13: Quicken Spell
15: Skill Focus (knowledge [religion])
18: Energy Substitution (to taste), Spell Focus (transmutation)


at Level 20: BAB +0, Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +36

Those stats. Oh my goodness haha.

[Slipperychicken]

I believe plzbreakmycampaign's original CoDZilla build was made up almost entirely of dips.

[jaybird]

That Will save.

[Zombulian]

That Will save.

Dipping always makes saves really crazy. I was never sure if I was doing it right.

[Coidzor]

So it needs 1 RHD and 1 LA, though the LA may be bought off? Tricky. Either that means one has to find something that has 1 RHD and can't trade it for their first class level or else allow something with 2 RHD to trade one of them for their first class level. Some kind of lycanthrope or emantothrope would work, were it not for their having LA+2 or LA+3...

So... Something with 2 RHD and LA+1 (since, IIRC, you're not going to find a creature with 2+ RHD but LA +0)...

Hmm... Lizardfolk are the first thing that come to mind for me.

[Zombulian]

So it needs 1 RHD and 1 LA, though the LA may be bought off? Tricky. Either that means one has to find something that has 1 RHD and can't trade it for their first class level or else allow something with 2 RHD to trade one of them for their first class level. Some kind of lycanthrope or emantothrope would work, were it not for their having LA+2 or LA+3...

So... Something with 2 RHD and LA+1 (since, IIRC, you're not going to find a creature with 2+ RHD but LA +0)...

Hmm... Lizardfolk are the first thing that come to mind for me.

It doesn't need that. He was just saying that was allowed.

[JaronK]

First rule of super dip builds: take Bloodlines, and throw some Martial Adepts in there! The way bloodlines work, single non initiator levels grant +2 initiator level if you have a major bloodline, and levels in the Martial Adept class grant +4. Thus, a Ranger 1/Swashbuckler 1/Duskblade 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/etc at level 12 with a Major Bloodline who then takes a single level of Warblade has an initiator level of 28.

Also, with Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage + Dragonblood Sorcerer 7 (that's a single level, just level 7, thank you sneaky Dragon/Dragonblood tricks), you should be able to start taking PrCs very quickly, due to having effectively 3rd level Sorcerer casting, BAB +3, and a +5 will save. The same trick with Drragonblood Cleric grants +6 BAB in one level. Note that you can't do this at level 1, but it does mean with some clever work you can get full 20 levels of Sorcerer casting on a build that has no more than one level of each class.

JaronK

[Zombulian]

First rule of super dip builds: take Bloodlines, and throw some Martial Adepts in there! The way bloodlines work, single non initiator levels grant +2 initiator level if you have a major bloodline, and levels in the Martial Adept class grant +4. Thus, a Ranger 1/Swashbuckler 1/Duskblade 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/etc at level 12 with a Major Bloodline who then takes a single level of Warblade has an initiator level of 28.

Also, with Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage + Dragonblood Sorcerer 7 (that's a single level, just level 7, thank you sneaky Dragon/Dragonblood tricks), you should be able to start taking PrCs very quickly, due to having effectively 3rd level Sorcerer casting, BAB +3, and a +5 will save. The same trick with Drragonblood Cleric grants +6 BAB in one level. Note that you can't do this at level 1, but it does mean with some clever work you can get full 20 levels of Sorcerer casting on a build that has no more than one level of each class.

JaronK

Couldn't you use Bloodline cheese and Hellfire Warlock with PrC's that advance past class abilities (I'm only aware of Legacy Champ and Uncanny Trickster) for effectively 4 levels of HW per class?

[Coidzor]

First rule of super dip builds: take Bloodlines, and throw some Martial Adepts in there! The way bloodlines work, single non initiator levels grant +2 initiator level if you have a major bloodline, and levels in the Martial Adept class grant +4. Thus, a Ranger 1/Swashbuckler 1/Duskblade 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/etc at level 12 with a Major Bloodline who then takes a single level of Warblade has an initiator level of 28.

How again? Sorry. Is this covered in that one bloodline handbook by PlzbrkmyCpmgn or however one shortens Please Break My Campaign?


It doesn't need that. He was just saying that was allowed.

Ah, that simplifies things then.


Also, with Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage + Dragonblood Sorcerer 7 (that's a single level, just level 7, thank you sneaky Dragon/Dragonblood tricks), you should be able to start taking PrCs very quickly, due to having effectively 3rd level Sorcerer casting, BAB +3, and a +5 will save. The same trick with Drragonblood Cleric grants +6 BAB in one level. Note that you can't do this at level 1, but it does mean with some clever work you can get full 20 levels of Sorcerer casting on a build that has no more than one level of each class.

Ahh, Dragonblood fun times. :3

[JaronK]

Couldn't you use Bloodline cheese and Hellfire Warlock with PrC's that advance past class abilities (I'm only aware of Legacy Champ and Uncanny Trickster) for effectively 4 levels of HW per class?

Can you qualify for Hellfire Warlock with just one Warlock level? I don't think you can.

@Coidzor: Bloodlines increase your class level in ALL classes by your number of bloodline levels for purposes of things that only relate to class level. Your initiator level = 1/2 your class level in all non initiator classes + your martial adept level. So a one level dip in Swashbuckler (1/2 initiator level) with a major bloodline (+1.5 initiator levels, due to adding three levels) grants a total of +2 to initiator level. This makes it easy to grab 9th level maneuvers in all schools if you want (you'll of course need Master of Nine and such just to get the raw number of maneuvers required for this.

JaronK

[Kerim]

I don't really understand Bloodlines, myself.

Also, I don't believe you can take Sorcerer 7 without first taking 6 other levels of Sorcerer beforehand. Even if you are casting as a 6th level sorcerer.

[Ezekiul]

Doesn't BAB take into account partials? For example 20 classes levels in 20 different 1/2 BAB classes would add up to +10/+5 correct? or 2 classes with 3/4 BAB + 1 class with 1/2 BAB would be a +2 BAB?

[JaronK]

Also, I don't believe you can take Sorcerer 7 without first taking 6 other levels of Sorcerer beforehand. Even if you are casting as a 6th level sorcerer.

That's backwards. Here's how it works.

1) Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype, which ignores all other prerequisites. You just qualify. Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons.

2) Taking Dragonblood Sorcerer level 7 requires being Dragonblooded and having 6 Sorcerer levels. Because of rule 1, Dragons can just take this level.

3) Taking Dragonblood Sorcerer 7 without the 6 levels before it doesn't make you cast as a 7th level Sorcerer. Your Sorcerer casting is actually in the text based on the number of Sorcerer levels you have. So a Sorcerer 7 with this trick still casts just like a 1st level Sorcerer. Of course, Loredrake boosts this by 2 and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage boosts it by 1 more.

4) Base Attack Bonus and Saves are a look up table, so you do get those.

So taking Dragonblood Sorcerer 7 without the other Sorcerer levels makes you cast as a Sorcerer 1, but without a Familiar, and you get a BAB of +3 and some nicer saves (+1/+1/+5). Add in Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and now you're casting like a Sorcerer 4.

Note: this is cheesy silliness, but this thread is silly anyway.

And partial BAB is a variant rule. It's a good one, of course, but still a variant.

JaronK

[Karnith]

Can you qualify for Hellfire Warlock with just one Warlock level? I don't think you can.
Sort of; you'd need to take a level of Warlock, and then progress your Warlock invocations (etc.) with PrCs that advance arcane casting. This might involve progressing invocations with classes that aren't meant for Warlocks.

Doesn't BAB take into account partials?
That's a variant rule. It's extremely common, because not using it frequently leads to silly results, but it's not the default.

[Kerim]

Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype, which ignores all other prerequisites.

Where does it say it ignores all other prerequisites? In practice, what stands in the RotD book just means that they count as Dragonblood for classes and feats.

But it might be better to take this to another thread or PMs.

[JaronK]

Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype, which ignores all other prerequisites.

Where does it say it ignores all other prerequisites? In practice, what stands in the RotD book just means that they count as Dragonblood for classes and feats.

But it might be better to take this to another thread or PMs.

It says it in Races of the Dragon. It decidedly doesn't say they count as Dragonblood. Here's what it says: "Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype."

Instead of clogging the thread further, I'll just refer you here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4804.0;wap2

JaronK