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LordErebus12
2013-11-06, 10:54 AM
The Gentleman (or Lady)
http://i.imgur.com/pPTkm35.jpg

"If the gentleman has ability, he is magnanimous, generous, tolerant, and straightforward, through which he opens the way to instruct others."
-Xun Zi

"A gentleman is simply a patient wolf."
-Lana Turner


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Requirements
To qualify to become a Gentleman/Lady, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.


Alignment
Any, Generally Lawful

Skills
Diplomacy 8 ranks, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) 4 ranks

Feats
Combat Expertise, Persuasive.

Special

Show a fair amount of respect, kindness and courtesy to others.
Hold oneself to certain moral standards to which the character, group or society values as important.
One's words and promises should carry meaning and should be kept and honored whenever possible.
Abstain from greed and gluttony while conducting oneself in all things.
Consider yourself secondary in important situations involving others.
Attempt to offer aid whenever possible.



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Hit Die
d8.

Class Skills
The Gentleman's/Lady’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (All Skills, Taken Individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at Each Level
6 + Int modifier.

{table=head] Level |BAB |Fort Save |Ref Save |Will Save |Special
1st|+1|+0|+2|+2|After You, Reputation
2nd|+2|+0|+2|+2|Insightful Reflexes, Poise
3rd|+3|+0|+3|+3|Bonus Feat, Diplomat
4th|+4|+1|+3|+3|Deceptive Strike
5th|+5|+1|+4|+4|Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge
6th|+6|+1|+4|+4|Evasion, Renown
7th|+7|+2|+5|+5|Bonus Feat, Helpful Hand
8th|+8|+2|+5|+5|Improved Deceptive Strike
9th|+9|+2|+6|+6|Bonus Feat,
10th|+10|+3|+6|+6|
[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the Gentleman/Lady prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A Gentleman/Lady gains no new armor proficiencies, but gains proficiency in all simple weapons, plus the bladed fan, rapier, swordstick, and whip. If firearms are allowed, they also gain proficiency in those, by the DM's discretion.

1st - After You (Ex):
Politeness and patience has its advantages. If he/she so chooses to, the Gentleman/Lady can automatically go last in the initiative order of combat. If he/she does, the Gentleman/Lady is not flat-footed on the surprise round and can make a full round action in that round, instead of the normal standard action. In addition, the Gentleman/Lady automatically gains 1 reputation point at the beginning of combat.

2nd - Insightful Reflexes (Ex):
When not wearing armor or using a shield, a Gentleman/Lady may choose to add his/her Intelligence modifier instead of his/her Dexterity modifier as a bonus to Reflex saves.

2nd - Poise (Ex):
When not wearing armor or using a shield, a Gentleman/Lady adds his Charisma bonus (if any) as a dodge bonus to modify his/her Armor Class. If a Gentleman/Lady is caught flat-footed, loses all reputation points or otherwise denied his/her Dexterity bonus, he/she also loses this bonus.

3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th - Bonus Feat (Ex):
The gentleman/Lady gains a bonus feat. All prerequisites of this bonus feat must still be met.

3rd - Diplomat (Ex):
Being polite and persuasive is what a Gentleman/Lady is best at. A Gentleman/Lady can now roll twice on diplomacy skill checks, taking the higher of two rolls.

4th - Deceptive Strike (Ex):
As a standard action, a Gentleman/Lady may make an elaborate feinting attack, striking in such a way as to trick and catch the opponent off guard. When making a deceptive strike, a gentleman/lady must attack with a weapon that qualifies for the weapon finesse feat.

The Gentleman/Lady makes a bluff check opposed by the opponent's sense motive check before rolling the attack roll. If successful on the feint attempt, the opponent is denied their dexterity modifier to their AC for the deceptive strike. If not, the opponent keeps his dexterity to AC for the attack. Whether successful or not on the feint, the Gentleman/Lady adds their Dexterity modifier (if any) to their damage roll on the attack.

5th - Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
A Gentleman/Lady retains his/her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he/she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he/she still loses his/her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a Gentleman/Lady already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he/she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see spoiler below) instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
A Gentleman/Lady can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the Gentleman/Lady by flanking him/her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has Gentleman/Lady levels.

If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

6th - Evasion (Ex):
A Gentleman/Lady can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he/she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he/she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Gentleman/Lady is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Gentleman/Lady does not gain the benefit of evasion. If a Gentleman/Lady already has evasion from a different class, he/she automatically gains improved evasion (see spoiler below) instead.

Improved Evasion (Ex):
This ability works like evasion, except that while the Gentleman/Lady still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks. Henceforth, he/she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Gentleman/Lady does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

6th - Renown (Ex): Borrowed from Grod_The_Giant's Myth.
Your reputation preceeds itself. When meeting new NPCs, their initial attitudes are one step more extreme than normal; unfriendly NPCs become hostile, and friendly characters become helpful. Indifferent NPCs become either friendly or unfriendly.

In addition, the Gentleman/Lady gains a bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks equal to one-half his/her level, but takes an equal penalty to Disguise checks and Bluff checks made to conceal his/her identity.

7th - Helping Hand (Ex):
When you successfully perform an Aid Another action, you grant a +4 bonus, rather than the normal +2 bonus. This applies to both the combat and skill versions of this action.

8th - Improved Deceptive Strike (Ex):
The Gentleman/Lady can now use his/her deceptive strike ability as part of a full attack action, rather than just single attack as a standard action.




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Reputation

Reputation Maximum: Charisma Modifier + Total Character Level

Reputation is vitally important to a Gentleman/Lady. Without it, they are no different from any other person. They quickly become lost without it, reaching almost depraved levels of fear and loathing to get it back. Its a slippery slope, with each use of their abilities, they put their reputation on the line, risking everything for that big payout.

While they can slowly gain it back over time from following their code of conduct, their are faster methods of gaining it. Good or noble deeds can increase their reputation just as quickly as bad or foolish deeds can decrease it. With reputation, life is a gamble, and some are just trying to keep their heads above the waters.

When drained of reputation, a Gentleman/Lady becomes shaken and loses all benefit from all class special features (with the exception of bonus feats) but abilities that grant reputation still function for that purpose. Their reputation can be restored, but until they do, they suffer from the consequences.

Certain actions innately drain reputation. Murdering innocent people or stealing someone else's items cuts their reputation points in half. Extreme rudeness or selfish behavior lowers their points by two for each time they behave that way. While a certain amount of rudeness and selfishness is acceptable with any individual, a Gentleman/Lady must actively refrain from such behavior.

A varying number of points can be spent to activate several abilities or bonuses, most of which function as a swift action. Once activated, these last for 1d4 rounds.


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New Hidden Weapons

Many cities have laws against carrying arms, and even where this is not the case, certain institutions disallow weapons within their halls. The items described below may get around such restrictions (and are illegal in many communities).

In addition to standard attributes, the hidden weapons listed below include a Search DC. Anyone who fails this check, or who does not specifically search the bearer, does not recognize these items as weapons.

Masterwork versions of these weapons, in addition to adding the normal benefits, also increase the Search DC by 5.

{table=head]Martial Weapon|Cost|Dmg (S)|Dmg (M)|Critical|Range Increment|Weight|Type|Size|Search DC
Swordstick (Blade)|50 gp|1d4|1d6|18-20x2|---|2 lbs.|Piercing|One-Handed|---
Swordstick Sheath (Cane)|10 gp|1d4|1d6|20x2|---|1 lb.|Bludgeoning|Light|25
Swordstick Sheath (Umbrella)|50 gp|1d3|1d4|20x2|---|2 lbs.|Bludgeoning*|Light|30

Bladed Fan (Gunsen)|45 gp|1d3|1d4|19-20x2|10 ft.|1 lb.|Bludgeoning or Slashing|Light|20
{colsp=10}*Deals nonlethal damage.
[/Table]


Swordstick:
This is the classic "rapier hidden in a cane or umbrella." Although it is considered one weapon, each part of the weapon (Blade and Sheath) can be enchanted and used separately. Depending on which sheath you use (Cane or Umbrella), you get a different benefit.

With the cane sheath, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC. This stacks with any feat that offers a shield bonus for wielding two weapons, such as two weapon defense. With the umbrella sheath, you gain a +2 bonus to bluff checks when feinting in combat.

Bladed Fan:
Also commonly called the Gunsen, the bladed fan is made of tipped metal spokes with either thin sheets of razor-sharp metal or silk for webbing. Although they are often decorated with silks and other fabrics to disguise them further, most are quite plain, since these delicate materials often become ruined after being used in battle.

The bladed fan grants you a +2 bonus on disarm checks. If two are used together, you also gain a +2 bonus to bluff checks when feinting in combat.


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New Feats

Martial Thug [Fighter Bonus Feat, General]

Your background on the streets have taught to you seize every opportunity possible to achieve your goals. Even now that base method of thinking reflects itself in your training and combat style.

Prerequisite:
Proficiency with all martial weapons, Sneak Attack +1d6

Benefit:
Your fighter and rogue levels stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack damage and your trap sense modifier. Your fighter and rogue levels also stack for the purpose of qualifying for feats that require a minimum fighter level, such as Greater Weapon Focus.

For example, a 5th-level fighter/1st-level rogue with this feat could deal +3d6 damage on a successful sneak attack, would have a +2 on their trap sense ability and would treat themselves as a 6th level fighter for feat prerequisites.

Special:
A fighter can select Martial Thug as one of his fighter bonus feats (PH 38).

JoshuaZ
2013-11-06, 11:20 AM
The requirements to enter the PrC are heavily social focused, but the PrC gives no social benefits. This is unfortunate. It should have some social benefits also.

LordErebus12
2013-11-06, 11:42 AM
The requirements to enter the PrC are heavily social focused, but the PrC gives no social benefits. This is unfortunate. It should have some social benefits also.

True, besides an ethics code and lots of skill points, not much is offered in that department. While this does affect social interactions, it was meant to be vague so the character has some room to work with.

suggestions?

I could see some social abilities at 2nd and 4th levels.

RedWarlock
2013-11-06, 12:04 PM
I'd say some social skills boosts..

I'd almost like to see your Special line under the prereq's as a CoC (even though I know most people hate CoCs..). Perhaps with short-term penalties (or losses of abilities) like the PH2 Knight, rather than longterm losses like the Paladin.

Maybe with some of the abilities (like, all the original ones) listed as, 'While the Gentleman/Lady has their Reputation..', with an ability called 'Saving Face' that would allow it to recover. (After You would be an automatic face-save..)

I'd be tempted to roll it into some kind of points-system that spent Rep pts to do extra stuff like deal damage or get social-check boosts (like a subset-limited Factotum) but could regain them as well though reputable actions. (This way, they'd be an ongoing fluctuating resource rather than per-encounter.) More to it than a 5-level PrC at that point, though.

LordErebus12
2013-11-06, 12:32 PM
I'd say some social skills boosts..

I'd almost like to see your Special line under the prereq's as a CoC (even though I know most people hate CoCs..). Perhaps with short-term penalties (or losses of abilities) like the PH2 Knight, rather than longterm losses like the Paladin.

Maybe with some of the abilities (like, all the original ones) listed as, 'While the Gentleman/Lady has their Reputation..', with an ability called 'Saving Face' that would allow it to recover. (After You would be an automatic face-save..)

I'd be tempted to roll it into some kind of points-system that spent Rep pts to do extra stuff like deal damage or get social-check boosts (like a subset-limited Factotum) but could regain them as well though reputable actions. (This way, they'd be an ongoing fluctuating resource rather than per-encounter.) More to it than a 5-level PrC at that point, though.

Well, I could see a tenth level class evolving. The reason with the 5 level PrC is because I couldn't come up with enough to fill 10 levels. If you can come up with something, I would love to do more to expand and refine it.

LordErebus12
2013-11-06, 02:24 PM
Expanding it to a 10 level class, with a specialized class ability, dealing with reputation. Any ideas or concepts anyone has will be extremely helpful and welcome.

CinuzIta
2013-11-06, 02:53 PM
gentlemen, or ladies, are supposed to be charming figures..so what about an ability like fascinate (or was it suggestion? Anyway, I'm talking about the bard's ability)? It could use those Reputation Points you guys were talking about..

Another possibilty could be the Skill Trick "Social Recovery", by letting the character use it whenever he/she wants by expending one Reputation Point instead of 1/encounter like other skill tricks. You wanted an ability that lets the character "save his face", right?

Another (low level) ability could be a scaling bonus on Diplomacy, Gather Information and Perform (Seduct) checks made on a character of the opposite sex equal to his class level..

For the moment, this is all..maybe later I'll find other ideas..

LordErebus12
2013-11-06, 05:45 PM
gentlemen, or ladies, are supposed to be charming figures..so what about an ability like fascinate (or was it suggestion? Anyway, I'm talking about the bard's ability)? It could use those Reputation Points you guys were talking about..

Another possibilty could be the Skill Trick "Social Recovery", by letting the character use it whenever he/she wants by expending one Reputation Point instead of 1/encounter like other skill tricks. You wanted an ability that lets the character "save his face", right?

Another (low level) ability could be a scaling bonus on Diplomacy, Gather Information and Perform (Seduct) checks made on a character of the opposite sex equal to his class level..

For the moment, this is all..maybe later I'll find other ideas..

Great suggestions, anyone else have anything to contribute? I want to get several opinions before I finish posting anything.

CinuzIta
2013-11-06, 06:17 PM
also, while this is not a great suggestion per se, for the Reputation Points I'd go for something like this:

Rp = Class Level+Charisma modifier

As long as the character has 1rp left, he gains a bonus of +2 on all his Will saves.

While I was writing, other ideas came to my mind. Here they are:

Gentleman/Lady Agreement (Ex): by expending 2rp, while single-fighting an enemy, the character can attempt to establish an agreement with his opponent. If this one fails a Will saving throw (Dc 10+Lvl+Cha) then he is forced to fight only with the character, ignoring other opponents. The character is exalted by this duel and gain a bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls and ac equal to half his class level and a bonus on Tumble and Feint checks equal to his Charisma modifier. The opponent must be an intelligent creature who share at least one language with the character. If any creature enter the fight with the opponent or the character then the agreement is broken and the character lose all of his bonuses.

Important Links (Ex): If the character is in a city, he can expend 1rp to gain a bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information and Intimidate checks for 1 minutes per class level

Edit- oh look, another idea crossed my mind..this class is really an easy-writing..:)

Gentleman Style (Ex): if wielding a rapier or a swordstick, the character is considered in posses of both Accurate Weapon and Weapon Focus feats for those weapons. He also gain a bonus on damage rolls with those weapons equal to his Charisma modifier (maximum +4)

LordErebus12
2013-11-06, 06:25 PM
As a penalty for having no Reputation points, you are shaken and lose all Gentlemen/Lady class features (with the exception of the ability to regain them through various deeds)

CinuzIta
2013-11-06, 06:31 PM
As a penalty for having no Reputation points, you are shaken and lose all Gentlemen/Lady class features (with the exception of the ability to regain them through various deeds)

Looks nice! For the deeds, you could look at PF Gunslinger deeds to regain Grit Points and then vary some thing. This character could regain Rp by winning Diplomacy checks, scoring Critical Hits or, don't know, something else..

LordErebus12
2013-11-07, 12:34 PM
Reputation Maximum: Charisma Modifier + Total Character Level

Reputation is vitally important to a Gentleman/Lady. Without it, they are no different from any other person. They quickly become lost without it, reaching almost depraved levels of fear and loathing to get it back. Its a slippery slope, with each use of their abilities, they put their reputation on the line, risking everything for that big payout.

While they can slowly gain it back over time from following their code of conduct, their are faster methods of gaining it. Good or noble deeds can increase their reputation just as quickly as bad or foolish deeds can decrease it. With reputation, life is a gamble, and some are just trying to keep their heads above the waters.

When drained of reputation, a Gentleman/Lady becomes shaken and loses all benefit from all class special features (with the exception of bonus feats) but abilities that grant reputation still function for that purpose. Their reputation can be restored, but until they do, they suffer from the consequences.

Certain actions innately drain reputation. Murdering innocent people or stealing someone else's items cuts their reputation points in half. Extreme rudeness or selfish behavior lowers their points by two for each time they behave that way. While a certain amount of rudeness and selfishness is acceptable with any individual, a Gentleman/Lady must actively refrain from such behavior.

~Corvus~
2013-11-07, 01:04 PM
Maybe give Improved evasion at 10th?

JeenLeen
2013-11-07, 01:09 PM
I recommend removing the following from the Code of Conduct:
•Attempt to offer aid whenever possible.

With that, it makes them essentially have to be good. While this makes sense as a good PrC, I could also see it working as an evil noble who manipulates others but still acts good, avoiding excess, greed, gluttony, etc. as beneath himself while still accumulating power and favor.

LordErebus12
2013-11-07, 01:09 PM
Maybe give Improved evasion at 10th?

that im not too sure about. most builds will already have evasion upon entering this class, meaning it is rather worthless to take that last level if it is just gonna give you something you already have.

LordErebus12
2013-11-07, 01:10 PM
I recommend removing the following from the Code of Conduct:

With that, it makes them essentially have to be good. While this makes sense as a good PrC, I could also see it working as an evil noble who manipulates others but still acts good, avoiding excess, greed, gluttony, etc. as beneath himself while still accumulating power and favor.

hmm. makes sense. the problem is the last two both hit then. You wouldn't be able to be all manipulative if you considered yourself secondary in such situations. with your example, i could see him offering aid more than thinking of himself less. the manipulation is stemming from greed, after all.

Gnorman
2013-11-07, 07:52 PM
After You is ambiguously worded - does the Gentleman gain a reputation point every time he delays his initiative count, or just the once?

Deceptive Strike is a worse version of Sneak Attack (Dex mod instead of 1d6 / 2 levels) + Improved Feint that costs resources. I'd recommend removing the reputation point cost, or at least scaling the damage to a more respectable level.

Canny Defense is a concept that, in my mind, isn't worth an ability slot. At best, it is equal to Has A +1 Chain Shirt. Given that the Gentleman highly values Dexterity and Charisma, I don't know how practical even that is.

Bonus Feats. This might be a personal thing, but Bonus Feats instead of class abilities makes me sad.

I have three issues with the class in general: (1) It's basically a slightly sturdier rogue with no sneak attack, which lessens its ability to contribute in combat, (2) No source of bonus damage beyond Dexterity mod (and no ability to use iterative attacks on Deceptive Strike) means it will be outpaced very quickly in melee, and (3) It also suffers from MAD - Dex for damage/attack, Int for defense, and Cha for social skills.

I'd like to see more of a focus on expanding the uses of social skills. Perhaps an ability to charm foes using an in-combat Diplomacy check and direct their attacks, or perhaps an ability to force foes to make a Will save to attack them.

LordErebus12
2013-11-07, 09:25 PM
After You is ambiguously worded - does the Gentleman gain a reputation point every time he delays his initiative count, or just the once?

I will answer this with another question... How often do you set initiative in combat? If you chose to go last in initiative, you go last throughout the entire combat. Therefore, you would only benefit from this ability once per encounter.

Deceptive Strike is a worse version of Sneak Attack (Dex mod instead of 1d6 / 2 levels) + Improved Feint that costs resources. I'd recommend removing the reputation point cost, or at least scaling the damage to a more respectable level.

Except you are a bit off on that assumption. Deceptive strike is a single attack combined with a FREE feint attempt. Even Improved Feint is a move action and costs a few feats to obtain. Yeah, it adds Dex to damage, in addition to str but its not meant to replace or even replicate sneak attack. It is however a way of triggering sneak attack damage from another class. I did remove to reputation cost, though.

Canny Defense is a concept that, in my mind, isn't worth an ability slot. At best, it is equal to Has A +1 Chain Shirt. Given that the Gentleman highly values Dexterity and Charisma, I don't know how practical even that is.

Changed the ability to Poise, which grants a dodge bonus equal to the character's charisma modifier.

Bonus Feats. This might be a personal thing, but Bonus Feats instead of class abilities makes me sad.

I have three issues with the class in general: (1) It's basically a slightly sturdier rogue with no sneak attack, which lessens its ability to contribute in combat, (2) No source of bonus damage beyond Dexterity mod (and no ability to use iterative attacks on Deceptive Strike) means it will be outpaced very quickly in melee, and (3) It also suffers from MAD - Dex for damage/attack, Int for defense, and Cha for social skills.

I'd like to see more of a focus on expanding the uses of social skills. Perhaps an ability to charm foes using an in-combat Diplomacy check and direct their attacks, or perhaps an ability to force foes to make a Will save to attack them.

Working on it. I have a lot on my plate so this has to come in the free moments.

Deceptive Strike will be slightly upgraded at a later level, allowing it to be used as part of a full round action, but I can't get right to writing it at the moment.

I'm gonna try to do somethings tonight, but I still don't have it all figured out.

Gnorman
2013-11-07, 09:47 PM
Sorry, I didn't get across what I meant to with After You.

I read it as:


The Gentleman gets the delayed initiative ability.

AND


As a completely separate ability, he also gets one single reputation point when he takes this level. This is a one-time event.

You've still answered my question, albeit not in the way I was attempting to convey.


Changed the ability to Poise, which grants a dodge bonus equal to the character's charisma modifier.

This is slightly better (if only because it no longer scales and reduces MAD somewhat), but it's still just Has A +1 Chain Shirt.

A character with Poise, 20 Charisma, and 16 Dexterity: armor class of 18 (10 + 5 + 3). It took him seven levels to get here.

A character with: A +1 mithral chain shirt and 16 dexterity: armor class of 18 (10 + 5 + 3). He can afford it by level 3, according to WBL (2,100 gp). Also, the chain shirt can be enchanted further, he can still use a shield, and he's not restricted to melee. He also gets to spread those extra Charisma points around too - say to Intelligence, or Constitution.

My point is that "Adding a Stat to Armor Class But You Can't Wear Armor" abilities are rarely worth it. In most cases, you're actually worse off. That's not what we, as designers, should want out of class abilities.

LordErebus12
2013-11-07, 10:01 PM
This is slightly better (if only because it no longer scales and reduces MAD somewhat), but it's still just Has A +1 Chain Shirt.

Well, since this is basically an unarmored Fighter/Rogue PrC and one that cannot wear armor at that, its probably best that it has some extra built-in armor. Although, I'd scarcely call it a '+1 Chain Shirt'.

Sure, it probably won't reach above +4 or +5 at the beginning, but without a maximum dex modifier and armor check penalties, its a little bit better than a +1 chain shirt.

It also applies to touch attacks since its a dodge bonus, which makes it remarkably better against casters. Flat footed still bones it, though. :smallsmile:


My point is that "Adding a Stat to Armor Class But You Can't Wear Armor" abilities are rarely worth it. In most cases, you're actually worse off. That's not what we, as designers, should want out of class abilities.

Depends on how you look at it. Gentlemen/Ladies cannot walk around in armor all the time, like some guard or soldier do.

On a side note, lets not assume something like that from all designers. Personally I don't have a problem with "Adding a Stat to Armor Class But You Can't Wear Armor" abilities. Its free armor that you would be otherwise without, following the theme of the class.

Gnorman
2013-11-07, 10:06 PM
Well, since this is basically an unarmored Fighter/Rogue PrC and one that cannot wear armor at that, its prolly best that it has some extra built-in armor. Although, I'd scarcely call it a '+1 Chain Shirt'.

Sure, it probably won't reach above +4 or +5 at the beginning, but without a maximum dex modifier and armor check penalties, its a little bit better than a +1 chain shirt.

It also applies to touch attacks, which makes it remarkably better against casters. Flat footed still bones it, though. :smallsmile:

Eventually, yes, with Gloves of Dexterity +6 and a Cloak of Charisma +6 and 16 levels worth of stat boosts, you might have a Dexterity of 22 (+6) and a Charisma of 28 (+9), for a total AC boost of +15. That certainly beats out the guy with a +1 chain shirt, who only gets +11 (+1 mithral chain shirt has an armor class of 5, max dex of 6, and no armor check penalties).

By this time you are also fighting Cornugons, who with an attack bonus of +25 will hit both of you on anything but a one.

I do concede the point on touch attacks, however.

LordErebus12
2013-11-07, 10:11 PM
Eventually, yes, with Gloves of Dexterity +6 and a Cloak of Charisma +6 and 16 levels worth of stat boosts, you might have a Dexterity of 22 (+6) and a Charisma of 28 (+9), for a total AC boost of +15. That certainly beats out the guy with a +1 chain shirt, who only gets +11 (+1 mithral chain shirt has an armor class of 5, max dex of 6, and no armor check penalties).

By this time you are also fighting Cornugons, who with an attack bonus of +25 will hit both of you on anything but a one.

True, but you are assuming that everything you are fighting at that level is like that. Sure, some things are gonna hit you always; I'm not trying to make it godlike in defense, just better off than without it.

The big thing is what it is protecting you from. that +15 to AC also applies to Touch attacks, while the +1 chain shirt guy is thoroughly boned in that department.

Gnorman
2013-11-07, 10:12 PM
True, but you are assuming that everything you are fighting at that level is like that. Sure, some things are gonna hit you always; I'm not trying to make it godlike in defense, just better off than without it.

Whereas I am saying that, for the better part of his career, the Gentleman is probably better off completely ignoring Poise and just wearing armor. When a 100gp piece of equipment is outpacing your class feature, that's a bit of a problem.

LordErebus12
2013-11-07, 10:19 PM
Whereas I am saying that, for the better part of his career, the Gentleman is probably better off completely ignoring Poise and just wearing armor. When a 100gp piece of equipment is outpacing your class feature, that's a bit of a problem.

Well, that is up to the character/player. I'm not trying to build a tank or anything. its meant to be an unarmored fighter/rogue PrC with some social tricks and useful abilities to keep it out of danger.

LordErebus12
2013-11-07, 10:23 PM
Added in improved deceptive strike and renown. moved diplomat down a bit in levels and some other tweaks. got to head to work, will check back in on this in the morning and will start on it again after noon.

Fighter 5/Rogue1/Gentleman8 (ECL 14) looks fun. if you took the new feat, you have about 3d6 sneak attack and can generally make full attack actions with sneak attacks each round without having to flank.

Fighter3/Rogue3/Gentleman8 looks fun too if you took the penetrating strike ACF from dungeonscape. sneak attacks all around.

Pyromancer999
2013-11-07, 11:23 PM
Hmm....not 100% sure on the quality of the PrC, although I will say it does look like it needs a capstone for sure before it can be judged in full, but the other material provided looks pretty solid. The swordstick and bladed fan are not only cool concept weapons, but appear to be actually viable weapons. I also like the Martial Thug feat.

LordErebus12
2013-11-08, 08:00 AM
Hmm....not 100% sure on the quality of the PrC, although I will say it does look like it needs a capstone for sure before it can be judged in full, but the other material provided looks pretty solid. The swordstick and bladed fan are not only cool concept weapons, but appear to be actually viable weapons. I also like the Martial Thug feat.

Yeah, both weapons are in fact based on real life ones.

Not sure on the capstone. the prestige class is a work in progress.

Yeah, im frustrated that complete scoundrel didn't have such a feat.