Do we need a Pagan class for 3.5?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I would love to see a Pagan class, sorta like the Witch from Pathfinder but something more balanced for 3.5. What would you add to a Pagan class to make it feel unique and special?

Would you tie it to the Wizard? Would you tie it to the Druid?
Would you make her own unique spell list that composes of spells from both Arcane and Divine spells from those two?

Would you add a hex invocation system like Pathfinder did for their witch?

Looking for honest opinions. The fluff is interesting for someone who is a worshiper of a more reclusive style of religion. The worship of the earth and the spirits, the old gods and what not.

[SiuiS]

I would love to see a Pagan class, sorta like the Witch from Pathfinder but something more balanced for 3.5. What would you add to a Pagan class to make it feel unique and special?

Would you tie it to the Wizard? Would you tie it to the Druid?
Would you make her own unique spell list that composes of spells from both Arcane and Divine spells from those two?

Would you add a hex invocation system like Pathfinder did for their witch?

Looking for honest opinions. The fluff is interesting for someone who is a worshiper of a more reclusive style of religion. The worship of the earth and the spirits, the old gods and what not.

You're describing the Druid class. I'm not sure what more you want? The spirit shaman is maybe a better variant. Or possibly the sha-ir if you want 'gets magic from spirits' in a more literal sense.

But every D&D religion is a pagan mystery cult, really. That's the problem; they don't register as such because they're so open and codified like we expect from the more mainstream religions.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I was thinking more like a Wiccan style. I do understand the Druid is meant to be the more 'primitive' religions and the whole spirits aspect. But they all draw from the Druid as a primary base and while that's not horrible it is very much the issue for example the Druid cannot wear metal armor, why would a pagan such as a wiccan care about wearing metal armor or anything like that.

But I understand, so same answer as always

[Grinner]

But every D&D religion is a pagan mystery cult, really. That's the problem; they don't register as such because they're so open and codified like we expect from the more mainstream religions.

That and they tend to operate out of cathedrals (or cathedral-like buildings, at any rate).

I'm not sure the druid really fits the description though. In fact, I don't think the tenets of druidism, or a lack thereof, in generic D&D were ever really detailed. I gathered that they were a bunch of tree loving hippies who met in secret clubhouses in the middle of the woods and talked in their own secret language about secret stuff. They even went so far as to ostracize anyone who taught anyone else their secret language.

Theology isn't one of WotC's strong suits.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

My idea was more something not quite the tree hugger design of the druids, which yes while I am playing a Spirit Shaman soon still has a strong smell or tree hugger which is why I made him Deathtouched to cover that smell :P

But I mean a proper witch-like or at least pagan style class who does a mix of all of that the spirit conjuring for divination like spells, the use of hexes and curses for offensive powers and maybe ointments for healing or potions proper for healing abilities.

A book of shadows for the witch who can learn spells like a wizard in that they must write them down but maybe change it up so that they can only recall a specific number for each level per day but they can consult their book to rearrange their spells when they have used up those spell slots.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I was thinking of a class idea for a wizard like design that uses schools of magic, kinda.

Rituals
Incantations
Charms
Curses
Hexes

Make a spell list composed of each of those and of course they do what you think do that they are specialize schools of magic.

Rituals do things like divination and things that requires a long time to do to get a good powerful effect like reviving the dead, reincarnation and stuff like that.

Incantations are more for utility effects and the like, specialized actions like Knock or something.

Charms are buffs

Curses are debuffs and inflictions.

Hexes are direct damage effects and inflictions that don't suit debuffs.

Maybe have this class work with a book of shadows spell book but maybe function more like a Spirit Shaman with the ability to every day converse with their book and add new spells to their memorized spells for that day.

[Hyena]

Eh... How about cleric?

[GoblinGilmartin]

Pagan doesn't mean anything besides "Non-Christian". I know what you mean when you say it though. D&D already has those. They're called Druids.

[GoblinGilmartin]

The people who were "pagan" did not consider themselves such. It was the Christians who labeled them thusly. What UmpteenthDoctor is asking about is closer to Neo-Paganism, which didn't exist as we know it until 1960's in America and the UK.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Oh so like "Bob you're acting pretty pagan today, something wrong?"

No Pagan is a religion just not a singular defined one as Pagan is also a title encompassing many of the old religions such as the worship of the Greek or Roman gods.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pagan

So thank you for belittling a good portion of the growing population of Pagans around the world which yes does include neo pagans or Wicca groups.

I did think I was posting in the Homebrew Design section but clearly not as I am not ASKING TO PLAY a Druid or another established Class. But to get insights on a different style.

Druid is not a pagan class, it worships GODS that are worshiped also by Clerics the difference is they are hippies and tree huggers and that is basically it.

Edit: You do realize half the Christian religious holidays are rooted firmly in these nonexistence pagan practices right? But yes Pagan was a term used by the bigger cults of the one god to name them, they had different names but Pagan is a term that most have embraced as a statement that they do in fact stand apart.

And honestly I was more asking for something closer to the Witch idea then a Warlock or Wizard idea.

[GoblinGilmartin]

I didn't mean that. I just mean that a lot of what we think of as "pagan" as a society today are very...watered down. The (real) Druids never wrote anything down before they were wiped out, so we lost a lot of insight there.

Again. It WAS a label put on them by the Christians. I'm sure they would have labeled themselves as Jovians or something similar, based on individual religious preference. I doubt if a satanist and a jovian walked into a bar, they'd both be comfortable being called the same thing.

EDIT: you do realize that half of the definitions on the page you just linked me to have negative connotations, right?:

a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, gentile; idolator; nonbeliever.
3.
an irreligious or hedonistic person.
4.
a person deemed savage or uncivilized and morally deficient.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Satanist are part of the Christianity aspect not of the other orders.

Other groups don't believe in the devil or the single god.

Many worshiped the pantheons we know of today from myth and legends such as Zeus, Hera, Apollo, etc

Edit: Yes I am aware, they list what the word was used for. Pagan became from the word for commoner as in not a soldier of god as listed on the link.

[Rebonack]

Why not just convert the Pathfinder Witch over to 3.5 rules if you don't like the flavor of the Cleric or the Druid?

It wouldn't be particularly difficult.

[GoblinGilmartin]

Satanist are part of the Christianity aspect not of the other orders.

Other groups don't believe in the devil or the single god.

Many worshiped the pantheons we know of today from myth and legends such as Zeus, Hera, Apollo, etc

Edit: Yes I am aware, they list what the word was used for. Pagan became from the word for commoner as in not a soldier of god as listed on the link.

So did the word "villain". It was the power groups looking down on the "uneducated masses".

EXTRA: The wiki page for neo-pagan has this to say:

"Pagan" as a self-designation appeared in 1964 and 1965, in the publications of the Witchcraft Research Association; at that time, the term was in use by "revivalist Witches" in the United States and the United Kingdom, but unconnected to the broader, counter-culture Pagan movement. The modern popularisation of the terms "pagan" and "neopagan", as they are currently understood, is largely traced to Oberon Zell-Ravenheart, co-founder of "the 1st Neo-Pagan Church of All Worlds" who, beginning in 1967 with the early issues of Green Egg, used both terms for the growing movement. This usage has been common since the pagan revival in the 1970s.[9]

[UmpteenthDoctor]

....I am aware of all that.

Anything productive?

EDIT:
If your only reply is gonna be "Play X" don't post its not gonna be helpful.

No established class uses anything I wanted from this not even the PF version of a Witch which is why I didn't want to use the name witch because I knew someone would say that.

[BRC]

Well we have no idea what you DO want, all you've done is given us the name "Pagan", which as has been noted tells us nothing, and that it should be "sorta like the Witch from Pathfinder but something more balanced for 3.5"
Plus a list of terms with descriptions that are not very useful.
"rituals" "charms" 'hexes" are all just types of Spells. Are you thinking of a Wizard with some sort of split Spellcasting? "You get X Hexes per day, X Charms per day, X incantations per day" ect.


Forget about the name. What do you want the class to do mechanically speaking? You clearly have an archetype in mind, but it's not telling us anything besides "No, not like that".

[Pluto!]

What would you add to a Pagan class to make it feel unique and special?
Add another vote to "isn't this every D&D character anyway?"

[GoblinGilmartin]

....I am aware of all that.

Anything productive?

EDIT:
If your only reply is gonna be "Play X" don't post its not gonna be helpful.

No established class uses anything I wanted from this not even the PF version of a Witch which is why I didn't want to use the name witch because I knew someone would say that.

Okay, well, I DO want to help you here, but what you're asking for, flavor-wise, is really vague. Heck, the codifier of wizardlyness, Merlin, was technically a druid, so tying it into either arcane or clerical magic is gonna be a little tough.

Hexes and curses imply evil, real "bad luck upon your livestock" type stuff.

I see what you mean, but I've always thought the 3.5 version of a witch (which exists, by the way, it's in the DMG as an example) seemed really limited. I've never really liked the thought of any class with "it's own" spell list, because those lists are usually severely truncated Wizard or Druid lists.

Making your own class for this CAN be done, but my honest advice is I think the rest might be right, and simply re-flavoring an existing class might just be the easiest option, but I know it isn't what you're looking for. One more time, would you mind restating your intent?

[Closet_Skeleton]

The problem with designing new classes is that really wizard and cleric are versatile to do anything with their spell lists, so in practice specialists just tend to have crappy class features that don't make up for spells or have unnecessary new mechanics that may be better than standard D&D magic (because it isn't hard) but are the definition of unnecessary.

'Pagan' isn't constructive. What do you want apart from 'not-tree hugging'. What kind of spells? What kind of religion? A pantheon where the caster doesn't dedicate themselves to one god? Abstract personifications of nature? Something like Hinduism or Hellenic Paganism (Zeus, Ares etc) or something more like Taoism?


why would a pagan such as a wiccan care about wearing metal armor or anything like that.


Wiccans prefer to cast spells naked, so that's even more extreme than a druid.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Ok here it is in completion then.

I want a class that cast spells of neither Arcane or Divine nature, just casting spells this means that no one can copy their spells or use their magic items but them.

They would have a book of shadows that magically records all spells they learn inside, even if the book itself is destroyed when they get a new one it inscribes all the spells magically but originally the BoS is a family heirloom.

They cast different schools of magic
Rituals spells
Hexes
Curses
Charms
And Incantations.

Some of these types of magic are shorter then others. Incantations are the shortest where as the Ritual spells are the longest to use and prepare.

They cast spells based on a spell point system much like a psionic would use their powers. But since each school of magic has a specific style the rituals take multiple rounds to perform. A Curse or Hex might take a full round action or just a standard action to use. Charms and Incantations are much faster with Incantations being utility spells mostly and unlikely to see use inside combat.

The hexes are not just Fireball or something but anything from that to miasma that clouds the field in a toxic smoke.

Curses inflict debuffs by reducing things like speed per round, inflicting paralysis or something.

Charms work as buffs and can give the caster or the party +s to things like Attacks, Damage, Skill Checks, etc.

Maybe have a UPD system for them as well, where you can only use so many Unique Spells per Day for each of those types. So you can only use X amount of rituals but that X does not infringe on your X amount of hexes that day.

[GoblinGilmartin]

Okay, some queries:

1. Where do they get their magic then?

2. The "book of shadows" sounds like a magic item, not a class feature.

3. Rituals vs shorter spells already exist in 4e, and I also hear in the Theive's World 3rd Party 3.5 setting, try looking there.

You're essentially talking about a completely different magic system rather than just a class, and one that would not play well with the others already in 3.5.

[Grinner]

Taking "pagan" to mean "Wiccan", probably the most iconic example, I would recommend that you take a page from their book.

First, your class is probably specializes in group spellcasting, given how prominent the concept of covens are in Wicca. Second, it probably also focuses on more subtle magic, leaving out Fireball and company. Wards, curses, conjurations, blessings, and perhaps illusions are in. Third, attention must also be paid to the accoutrements of its work. There's probably some herbalism there as well as the crafting of magical trinkets. Most important is the spellbook, which according to Wikipedia, is supposed to be different for each practitioner, being a sort of religious diary.

It's also worth asking yourself how their magic really works. Do they invoke spirits to act on their behalf? Do they channel the power of the earth? Do they bind themselves to spirits? Is it different for each practitioner? Your answer will set up how the class is perceived.

[GoblinGilmartin]

It's also worth asking yourself how their magic really works. Do they invoke spirits to act on their behalf? Do they channel the power of the earth? Do they bind themselves to spirits? Is it different for each practitioner? Your answer will set up how the class is perceived.

This is what I was referring to. The magic has to come from somewhere. and they should probably at least be classified as either religious or arcane, whether or not you think they are.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

No no I meant their spells do not classify as either Arcane or Divine according to magical items such as scrolls.

They would likely be Arcane casters just people like a Wizard could not copy it. Erudite might be able to.

[GoblinGilmartin]

No no I meant their spells do not classify as either Arcane or Divine according to magical items such as scrolls.

They would likely be Arcane casters just people like a Wizard could not copy it. Erudite might be able to.

That doesn't make a ton of sense, but go on. Where does it come from?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

It comes from within themselves, their own innate magic. Their personal magic is what makes them witches. Like a Sorcerer they have innate magical energies flowing inside them but they do not harness them the way a Sorcerer does.

I always felt the Sorcerer should have been a different system and spell list to a Wizard since the two would never know the same spells.

[GoblinGilmartin]

It comes from within themselves, their own innate magic. Their personal magic is what makes them witches. Like a Sorcerer they have innate magical energies flowing inside them but they do not harness them the way a Sorcerer does.

I always felt the Sorcerer should have been a different system and spell list to a Wizard since the two would never know the same spells.

Arcane and divine are classified by their sources, not how they are used. That's arcane magic.

[Shpadoinkle]

It comes from within themselves, their own innate magic. Their personal magic is what makes them witches. Like a Sorcerer they have innate magical energies flowing inside them but they do not harness them the way a Sorcerer does.

I always felt the Sorcerer should have been a different system and spell list to a Wizard since the two would never know the same spells.

Sounds like you want a psion then.

[Grinner]

It comes from within themselves, their own innate magic. Their personal magic is what makes them witches. Like a Sorcerer they have innate magical energies flowing inside them but they do not harness them the way a Sorcerer does.

So why do they venerate the old gods if those gods are totally irrelevant to their theology?

[Glimbur]

Alternate answer: check out the Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic. They're like magic but different, which is one of the goals.

They might need some tweaking, but it's a place to start.

[urkthegurk]

No, it sounds like you want a souped-up Adept.

They cast spells from their own spell list, which counts as 'divine', but you could just as easily have it be 'untyped'. It would be pretty cool to make it Psionics, though.

What I'd do is give them a lot of spell-like abilities they can choose from, as well as the ability to use a ritual to get any spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list once per day... stuff like that.

Check out the Fool base class in this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300931) It might have some good ideas for you to start with.

[Red Bear]

Just FYI there is a "Witch" class in the DMG page 175. this is her spell list.

Witch Spell List
0 Level: arcane mark, cure minor wounds, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, flare, ghost sound, light, mending, read magic, resist- ance, virtue.
1st Level: cause fear, change self, charm person, command, com- prehend languages, cure light wounds, doom, endure elements, hypnotism, identify, silent image, sleep, speak with animals, ventriloquism.
2nd Level: alter self, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, cure moder- ate wounds, delay poison, detect thoughts, enthrall, invisibility, locate object, minor image, scare, whispering wind.
3rd Level: bestow curse, clairvoyance/clairaudience, contagion, create food and water, dispel magic, Leomund’s tiny hut, magic circle against chaos/law/evil/good*, major image, rage, remove blindness/deafness, suggestion, tongues.
4th Level: charm monster, crushing despair, discern lies, divination, fear, giant vermin, good hope, locate creature, minor creation, neutralize poison, polymorph, remove curse, scrying.
5th Level: baleful polymorph, dream, false vision, feeblemind, greater command, magic jar, major creation, mirage arcana, nightmare, seeming, sending.
6th Level: animate objects, control weather, eyebite, find the path, geas/quest, greater scrying, heroes’ feast, legend lore, mass suggestion, mis- lead, repulsion, shadow image, Tenser’s transformation, true seeing.
7th Level: creeping doom, finger of death, insanity, liveoak, repel wood, transport via plants.
8th Level: antipathy, demand, discern location, horrid wilting, poly- morph any object, sympathy, trap the soul.
9th Level: earthquake, foresight, refuge, shapechange, wail of the ban- shee, weird.
*When she becomes able to cast 3rd-level spells, the witch chooses to have one of the four magic circle spells on her spell list. Whichever spell she chooses, she cannot cast it as a spell of an alignment opposed to her own.

[Xuldarinar]

Just FYI there is a "Witch" class in the DMG page 175. this is her spell list.

Witch Spell List
0 Level: arcane mark, cure minor wounds, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, flare, ghost sound, light, mending, read magic, resist- ance, virtue.
1st Level: cause fear, change self, charm person, command, com- prehend languages, cure light wounds, doom, endure elements, hypnotism, identify, silent image, sleep, speak with animals, ventriloquism.
2nd Level: alter self, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, cure moder- ate wounds, delay poison, detect thoughts, enthrall, invisibility, locate object, minor image, scare, whispering wind.
3rd Level: bestow curse, clairvoyance/clairaudience, contagion, create food and water, dispel magic, Leomund’s tiny hut, magic circle against chaos/law/evil/good*, major image, rage, remove blindness/deafness, suggestion, tongues.
4th Level: charm monster, crushing despair, discern lies, divination, fear, giant vermin, good hope, locate creature, minor creation, neutralize poison, polymorph, remove curse, scrying.
5th Level: baleful polymorph, dream, false vision, feeblemind, greater command, magic jar, major creation, mirage arcana, nightmare, seeming, sending.
6th Level: animate objects, control weather, eyebite, find the path, geas/quest, greater scrying, heroes’ feast, legend lore, mass suggestion, mis- lead, repulsion, shadow image, Tenser’s transformation, true seeing.
7th Level: creeping doom, finger of death, insanity, liveoak, repel wood, transport via plants.
8th Level: antipathy, demand, discern location, horrid wilting, poly- morph any object, sympathy, trap the soul.
9th Level: earthquake, foresight, refuge, shapechange, wail of the ban- shee, weird.
*When she becomes able to cast 3rd-level spells, the witch chooses to have one of the four magic circle spells on her spell list. Whichever spell she chooses, she cannot cast it as a spell of an alignment opposed to her own.

When I saw this thread, I was going to bring that up.

As a side note, it also includes Gold Dwarves (pg. 171), Half-Human elves (same page), the Cantor (pg 175) and the Undead Stalker (same page).

[LordErebus12]

Check the DMG. there is a Witch variant class.

Edit: or look at the post above. :smallbiggrin:

[SiuiS]

I was thinking more like a Wiccan style. I do understand the Druid is meant to be the more 'primitive' religions and the whole spirits aspect. But they all draw from the Druid as a primary base and while that's not horrible it is very much the issue for example the Druid cannot wear metal armor, why would a pagan such as a wiccan care about wearing metal armor or anything like that.

But I understand, so same answer as always

There are Druids who can wear metal. The answer is flavor.

What you want is not a class but a background. You can have a pagan wizard, a pagan sorcerer, a pagan monk, a pagan cleric, a pagan Druid.

I had a classic evil necromancer sha'ir whose spirit familiar was an evil spell book, which searched psychically through the collective knowledge of the underworld for his spells. He dabbled in geotic magic, curses, undeath, divination.

He was still just the sha'ir class, though, even if no one I played with could tell.

Seriously. Just have your spirit shaman invoke the guardians of the watchtowers and you're done.


That and they tend to operate out of cathedrals (or cathedral-like buildings, at any rate).

I'm not sure the druid really fits the description though. In fact, I don't think the tenets of druidism, or a lack thereof, in generic D&D were ever really detailed. I gathered that they were a bunch of tree loving hippies who met in secret clubhouses in the middle of the woods and talked in their own secret language about secret stuff. They even went so far as to ostracize anyone who taught anyone else their secret language.

Theology isn't one of WotC's strong suits.

That's actually not a strictly cleric thing, it just sort of is assumed by players. It's entirely by the book to have the "church" be a bunch of wandering hobos, with no actual gathering points. You could just say "guaranteed to have at least one in every major port and city" and be done.

There's a lot of implicit setting material in old D&D, the Druids there are much richer than current "shapeshifting divine person".


Oh so like "Bob you're acting pretty pagan today, something wrong?"

No Pagan is a religion just not a singular defined one as Pagan is also a title encompassing many of the old religions such as the worship of the Greek or Roman gods.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pagan

So thank you for belittling a good portion of the growing population of Pagans around the world which yes does include neo pagans or Wicca groups.

1. That definition does not say what you think it says, and it does say what he said; "a pagan is someone not Christian, someone of one of many other religions". There is no religion called Paganism.
2. Misusing a term in a sentence does not make a point.
3. There was no belittling, you shouldn't take that personally. I'm pagan and I understood just fine what he said.
4. Discussing real world religion is against forum rules. This thread will be locked. We should not do that.


I did think I was posting in the Homebrew Design section but clearly not as I am not ASKING TO PLAY a Druid or another established Class. But to get insights on a different style.

You are asking for mechanics for a purpose that is too broad to define, because you cannot tell us what "pagan" is in this context. In order to help we are telling you what current classes meet your criteria and how to make them work. You'll have to be far, far more specific or work with us.


Druid is not a pagan class, it worships GODS that are worshiped also by Clerics the difference is they are hippies and tree huggers and that is basically it.

Uh, no? Because 1. You can have a pagan cleric; pagans have gods, 2. Druid class does not need to worship any god and never has, 3. You grossly misunderstand both Druid and hippy as terms.


Satanist are part of the Christianity aspect not of the other orders.

Please do not discuss real world religion. This much detail is too much.

You're getting evangelical and responding acidly because you feel we aren't educated enough about your religion. That's understandable, but we CANNOT actually bring your religion into it. Not without getting banned.

Give us a bullet list of clear and direct criteria that meet your needs and we will help. But path of least resistance is "there is already a class with mechanics that support what you've discussed about paganism as an in-game thing".

[Xuldarinar]

Please do not discuss real world religion. This much detail is too much.


But this whole thing is taking upon the label of a 'set' of religions. While the literal definition is anything not Christian, that said all classes in D&D are 'pagan' unless you include that particular religion within the confines of the game which is something I'd find fascinating to include but isn't something that can be discussed in depth in these forums due to a rule of unfortunate necessity. Defiants (Planar Handbook) could be considered an exception, as their beliefs are monotheistic in nature and they deny the existence of all other deities, at least as anything more than powerful mortals.

That said, and as said earlier, the druid class fits the concept quite well, as does the Pathfinder Witch class in of itself which is compatible, as well as the 3.5 witch. Binders could also suit this quite well as well. Again, this is all presuming a particular image conjured up by the word pagan and not its true definition. It is really a matter of fluff, which is incredibly flexible, more than true crunch, although there is fluffy crunch.

[GoblinGilmartin]

Check the DMG. there is a Witch variant class.

Edit: or look at the post above. :smallbiggrin:

Did no one actually READ the thread? You and the last three people to point this out missed the bit where I said it days ago. It's just annoying now.

[Xuldarinar]

Did no one actually READ the thread? You and the last three people to point this out missed the bit where I said it days ago. It's just annoying now.

I fail to see the source of the annoyance. It was information worth repeating anyways. While I had read through, I hadnt noticed that mention previously, but I had noticed it was mentioned, so I merely expanded upon it.

[Coidzor]

Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)are covered in Unearthed Arcana, so giving them bonuses to use them and expanding the number available would be one path to meet that requirement. Possibly expanding the number available and making some that require particular aspects of the class in order to complete.

Rituals would probably blend some with Incantations, though there's also the ritual feats that allow scaling benefits based upon a skill check, and those can definitely be magical. So some list of rituals they can choose between every couple of levels seems doable.

Hexes, Curses, and Charms seem like you'd just borrow the idea of hexes from the witch and then have a buffing and debuffing and enchantment focused spell list. Beguiler meets PF Witch, maybe.

Seems like you'd want to break your conceptualization of Pagan into several sub-components and divvy them up accordingly. The idea of one that worships various smaller deities instead of one great big one or a pantheon of the same as is standard seems like you'd want to make a variant cleric or archivist, though adjusting the Spirit Shaman or Shaman[OA] could satisfy that aspect readily enough without having to muck about with making an entirely new spell list out of wholecloth, since adding and subtracting some spells is a lot less work.

Then for the more scholarly one, archivist tweaked with a focus on rituals and incantations seems like bob's your uncle, really.

Or maybe have the base and then various archetypes/PrCs to modify it. Or make it a PrC any spellcaster can enter into.

[~Corvus~]

I was thinking more like a Wiccan style. I do understand the Druid is meant to be the more 'primitive' religions and the whole spirits aspect. But they all draw from the Druid as a primary base and while that's not horrible it is very much the issue for example the Druid cannot wear metal armor, why would a pagan such as a wiccan care about wearing metal armor or anything like that.

Show me a picture--untouched by photo-editing and the like--of a wiccan that wasn't wearing (Edit: comfortable, easy-to-wear and) loose-fitting clothing and I'll eat my shoes.

[SiuiS]

But this whole thing is taking upon the label of a 'set' of religions. While the literal definition is anything not Christian, that said all classes in D&D are 'pagan' unless you include that particular religion within the confines of the game which is something I'd find fascinating to include but isn't something that can be discussed in depth in these forums due to a rule of unfortunate necessity. Defiants (Planar Handbook) could be considered an exception, as their beliefs are monotheistic in nature and they deny the existence of all other deities, at least as anything more than powerful mortals.

That said, and as said earlier, the druid class fits the concept quite well, as does the Pathfinder Witch class in of itself which is compatible, as well as the 3.5 witch. Binders could also suit this quite well as well. Again, this is all presuming a particular image conjured up by the word pagan and not its true definition. It is really a matter of fluff, which is incredibly flexible, more than true crunch, although there is fluffy crunch.

Discussing a definition of a word and discussing the particulars of a religion are entirely separate endeavors.

[Ra_Va]

You might want to look at the 3rd Edition Open License 'Thieves World' books.

[Perseus]

I would love to see a Pagan class, sorta like the Witch from Pathfinder but something more balanced for 3.5. What would you add to a Pagan class to make it feel unique and special?

Would you tie it to the Wizard? Would you tie it to the Druid?
Would you make her own unique spell list that composes of spells from both Arcane and Divine spells from those two?

Would you add a hex invocation system like Pathfinder did for their witch?

Looking for honest opinions. The fluff is interesting for someone who is a worshiper of a more reclusive style of religion. The worship of the earth and the spirits, the old gods and what not.

By fluff the Binder is the pagan/witch of the D&D world, they even get burned at the stake and such.

They pray (summon/deal) to "other" entities that the mainstream doesn't like to call gods and they make bonds with multiple ones instead of just having a patron god and a pantheon.

[AuraTwilight]

Actually, that's an extremely good point, as it's common in pagan rituals for conductors to adopt the personas of deities for symbolic purposes and will-working.

Binders are literally neopagans basically.

[LordErebus12]

Show me a picture--untouched by photo-editing and the like--of a wiccan that wasn't wearing (Edit: comfortable, easy-to-wear and) loose-fitting clothing and I'll eat my shoes.

does skyclad count? otherwise, you WILL be eating shoes. :smalltongue: