Using Barbarian as baseline for tier 4

[Lans]

I often use the damage a standard barbarian can deal as a benchmark for whether something should be in tier 4 or not.

I figured if the class in question can deal about as much damage, give or take depending on reliability of the damage in question its tier 4.

However the diffence between the warrior and the barbarian is only +2 to hit and +3 to damage.

This means to me that the other abilities of the barbarian has to be in play, as minor as they. Is it mainly its combat defensive abilities or its extra skill points that makes up the difference?

Unless, a hypothetical Rage Warrior would be tier 4.


Does this sound about right?

[Vaz]

Is damage the sole purpose of Tier 4?

[Big Fau]

Tier 4 means one of two things:


You can do a lot in a lot of different situations, but not well enough to be meaningful all of the time (Can find traps, can scout ahead, and can talk to people, but can't endure much and can easily be dispatched or outright ignored).
You excel at one area, and without that you are rather screwed. Said specialty can usually be shut down fairly easily by common encounter factors (Mindless enemies for Diplomancers, difficult terrain for Charger builds, enemies 2 or more sizes larger than you/under the effects of Freedom of Movement for Grapplers).
Achieving one of these two criteria does not require much optimization or system mastery.


The Barbarian, as a class, excels in damage due to sheer splatbook support. Several excellent PrCs, feats, and ACFs were designed for the class that turn it into a veritable cannon. These options are easily shut down at time, or worse turned against the party (Frenzied Berserker especially), and the Barbarian doesn't have good defenses.

Rage is a nice bonus, but is largely only used for meeting the prereqs to the things that make a Barbarian a good Tier 4 class (which is why there's a few "How do I get Rage without being Chaotic-aligned" threads for Paladin players, as this feature opens up a lot of options for optimization). They also get fastest access to Pounce, something that dramatically improves a non-caster's ability to contribute to a combat encounter.

The Warrior, contrast, has none of this. It is no better than Monstrous Humanoid Racial Hit Dice. While it can be optimized to do similar amounts of damage to a Barbarian, those same options are unambiguously better on a Barbarian of equal level.

[Lans]

Tier 4 means one of two things:



You excel at one area, and without that you are rather screwed. Said specialty can usually be shut down fairly easily by common encounter factors (Mindless enemies for Diplomancers, difficult terrain for Charger builds, enemies 2 or more sizes larger than you/under the effects of Freedom of Movement for Grapplers).
Achieving one of these two criteria does not require much optimization or system mastery.
o
This is where I think the barbarian is, and as far as optimization is concerned, the more optimized the character is, the less the class matters in respect to what it does.


The Barbarian, as a class, excels in damage due to sheer splatbook support. Several excellent PrCs, feats, and ACFs were designed for the class that turn it into a veritable cannon. These options are easily shut down at time, or worse turned against the party (Frenzied Berserker especially),



and the Barbarian doesn't have good defenses.
Its higher hp pool, fort and will saves, damage reduction, and uncanny dodge give it better than a lot of classes


Rage is a nice bonus, but is largely only used for meeting the prereqs to the things that make a Barbarian a good Tier 4 class (which is why there's a few "How do I get Rage without being Chaotic-aligned" threads for Paladin players, as this feature opens up a lot of options for optimization). They also get fastest access to Pounce, something that dramatically improves a non-caster's ability to contribute to a combat encounter.

A barbarians ACFs and Prcs don't mean a whole lot imho, the tier list makes no distinction on a barbarians tier in regards to ACFs in its listing so in should be able to stand on its own with out them, and with out them they get a minor damage and speed boost, along with some defensive abilities.


The Warrior, contrast, has none of this. It is no better than Monstrous Humanoid Racial Hit Dice. While it can be optimized to do similar amounts of damage to a Barbarian, those same options are unambiguously better on a Barbarian of equal level.

True, but just because one class is unambiguously better doesn't change the tier that its in by itself. For example Warrior and Samurai.




Is damage the sole purpose of Tier 4?

No, but it is one, and its very easily quantifiable.