T1 mundane, or T1 fighter-type? (Idea) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Jormengand

2013-11-06, 02:58 PM

Here's a challenge for you. What do all of these characters have in common?

Just about every "swordsman" character (Lloyd or Asbel, for instance) in any Tales of... game.
The Amazon and Assassin from Diablo II and Diablo II: Lord of Destruction.
The Dragonborn from Skyrim, specialising in anything other than magic.
A melee Runescape character with an Abyssal Vine Whip and Dragonfire Shield, with points in the Prayer skill.
Most Soul Reapers from Bleach, especially the ones who use their Zanpaku-to a lot more than Kido.
All of the named, non-psyker DOWII characters, and DOWII characters from The Last Stand.
Most League of Legends characters who fight in melee, such as Kayle, Garen and Riven, most AD carries, like Ashe, and a few others such as Teemo.

If your answer was "They're all fighter-types" then you're correct. However, there is another point to this: Every last one of them uses some form of magic. Lloyd and Asbel have anything from Demon Fang up to the ability to call lightning bolts down on their foes. The Diablo II, Dawn of War II and League of Legends characters all have abilities of at very least questionable mundane-ness (Like Cyrus becoming completely invisible by "Hiding" - which uses up his "energy," *Cough* Mana *Cough*) and others have abilities of absolutely no mundane-ness (magic arrows, psychic hammers, the ability to heal, the ability to create this big-ass arrow out of nowhere...). Even the LoL character Garen, who is so mundane that he doesn't even have a mana bar, can still make this massive sword come out of nowhere and kill you dead. The dragonborn kills people by shouting "Fus ro da!" in their faces. RS characters' "Special attacks" may be forgivable as they are weapon functions, but the prayer skill is some serious divine magic. And don't get me started on the soul reapers.

However, we don't generally think of most of these characters as being magical - maybe Kayle and the soul reapers are a bit iffy, but you quite clearly see the distinction between fighter-types, caster-types and gish-types in Tales of... games, you don't question why sergeant Cyrus' squad can hide in front of an eldar's nose, and you barely even stop to consider your Protection From Magic as you rush in to fight an enemy spellcaster, or your ability to throw people off a mountain by shouting at them. Even with the Amazon and Assassin, you take the ability to have explosive arrows and teleport-kicks in stride. The Assassin still has a melee feel to it.

Garen is again an obvious point here: He spins at utterly impossible speeds while moving forwards at his normal pace, is able to stop you from using your own abilities, summons a literal shield (or three) to float around him blocking your attacks, and he drops a giant sword on you, all the while seeming like a perfect exemplar of a "Fighter."

Even the Soul Reapers seem to be able to maintain some semblance of being a fighter type, even as they use magic and magic weapons to level entire city blocks as they battle.

My point here is that, especially in such a high-power world as Dungeons and Dragons, no player character should really be expecting to walk around being "Mundane," and furthermore that it is wholly possible to be a fighter-type, with the feel of being a fighter-type, without actually being firmly grounded in reality.

Therefore, should the next fighter fix have some magic-esque, (Sp) or (Su) abilities?

Tome of battle is mundane, although it encompasses things which don't really make sense as mundane. It acts more like the Diablo II Barbarian: Give something fairly realistic-I-guess abilities and then throw on a few which aren't really realistic but oh well, and then present it as a fun mundane class.

And almost nobody liked playing the Diablo II barbarian.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-06, 03:05 PM

They should not have spell-like abilities, which can be dispelled and blocked by SR or anti-magic field or magic-immune foes. That's silly. That's clearly magic, whatever you label it.

Supernatural abilities are better, in that they are less like magic, but they are still blocked by an antimagic field. Still magic, which is no good-- if I want to play a character who doesn't use magic, I should be able to do such a thing.

What your "fighter" should have, though, are (Ex) abilities which break the laws of physics. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307285)

Just to Browse

2013-11-06, 03:10 PM

Nitpick: Garen doesn't summon a sword anymore, he just smites them with the power of Demacia (whatever that means). Also, when they did the cinematic for him, they removed his crazy spin-to-win and replaced it with a flourish because it wasn't realistic.

Not that this isn't a good argument, it's just that some things don't translate all that well from video games --> cinematics/RPGs.

Jormengand

2013-11-06, 03:23 PM

What your "fighter" should have, though, are (Ex) abilities which break the laws of physics. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307285)

But the entire point of an Ex ability is that it obeys the laws of physics, or the laws of nature - hence why it is not supernatural (above nature) but extraordinary (out of the ordinary).

They should not have spell-like abilities, which can be dispelled and blocked by SR or anti-magic field or magic-immune foes. That's silly. That's clearly magic, whatever you label it.

Supernatural abilities are better, in that they are less like magic, but they are still blocked by an antimagic field. Still magic, which is no good-- if I want to play a character who doesn't use magic, I should be able to do such a thing.

While I might feel happy for a couple of Garen-esque things to happen in an AMF, I would not be best pleased if Asbel ran in and started chucking lightning bolts at someone or an Assassin teleported in to kick the poor caster in the face, and I'd be a little suspicious of the invisible scouts and possible explosive mushrooms (TEEEEMOOOO!!!!)

Ex abilities which break the laws of physics are also magic: that's how they can break the laws of physics. If you want to use the D&D system to play a mundane, and you don't like the idea of anyone with any magic whatsoever, you probably don't want someone who can tell reality to sit in the naughty corner as easily as any wizard could manage. In an antimagic field.

Your "mundane" is no more mundane for having (Ex) written after its class feature titles.

Nitpick: Garen doesn't summon a sword anymore, he just smites them with the power of Demacia (whatever that means). Also, when they did the cinematic for him, they removed his crazy spin-to-win and replaced it with a flourish because it wasn't realistic.

Not that this isn't a good argument, it's just that some things don't translate all that well from video games --> cinematics/RPGs.

I haven't played LoL in ages, but even the fact that Garen used to do these things and was still the epitome of what it means to be a fighter proves my point to some degree. And dammit, I loved the spin-to-win!

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-06, 03:57 PM

But the entire point of an Ex ability is that it obeys the laws of physics, or the laws of nature - hence why it is not supernatural (above nature) but extraordinary (out of the ordinary).

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.
(emphasis mine).

While I might feel happy for a couple of Garen-esque things to happen in an AMF, I would not be best pleased if Asbel ran in and started chucking lightning bolts at someone or an Assassin teleported in to kick the poor caster in the face, and I'd be a little suspicious of the invisible scouts and possible explosive mushrooms (TEEEEMOOOO!!!!)
That's funny, I'd be unhappy if I said "I want to play a warrior, not a caster" and someone hands me a guy who shoots lightning bolts and teleports.

If high-level casters start turning into gods, high-level noncasters need to start turning into superheroes. Making everyone cast spells is not a solution.

Jormengand

2013-11-06, 04:10 PM

That's funny, I'd be unhappy if I said "I want to play a warrior, not a caster" and someone hands me a guy who shoots lightning bolts and teleports.

If high-level casters start turning into gods, high-level noncasters need to start turning into superheroes. Making everyone cast spells is not a solution.

Did you read any of my examples, or did you just come in here to advertise your homebrew and ignore the entire point of my thread?

My point is that a fighter-type does not need to be mundane. He doesn't need to cast spells either - they can have (Su) class features. That's why the ToB was unpopular, because it tried to give them mundane spellcasting.

Having things which go well with fighting but aren't mundane (like teleporting up to someone you want to attack, having a Thor's hammer type ability, firing exploding arrows, spinning to win, sending a wave of energy along the ground by swinging your sword, dodging people by shouting and having a flaming telekinetic sword) is what a large number of main characters in games do. It's more realistic to have "Fighter-esque T1" than "Realistic T1" as a design goal, not least due to the AMF abuse potential with Arcane Archers and Myths, for example.

The Myth is literally the same concept as my ones, only with an (Ex) tag instead of a (Su). If I wanted a mundane who just-so-happened to break the laws of physics, I could give him the extraordinary ability to teleport - the fact that teleportation is clearly impossible is irrelevant: it can still be (Ex).

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-06, 05:10 PM

Did you read any of my examples, or did you just come in here to advertise your homebrew and ignore the entire point of my thread?
I did read your post, in which you seem to be arguing that these various video-game characters, who do things like shooting lightning bolts and summoning giant magic swords out of nowhere should be our models for how to make high-level fighters.

I don't dispute that "warrior plus supernatural powers" is a valid character concept. I don't dispute that you can make a very effective class by doing so.

However, I do think there is a sizable portion of players, myself included, that want a character who does not use magic-- or at least not obvious magic. If I wanted to shoot lightning bolts at things, or summon giant animated weapons, I'd play a wizard. (Or at least a gish). If I pick up a fighter... I don't. I want to play a character who depends on their own strong body and mind.

In which case, there is a difference between "nonmagical" and "supernatural," and it's subtler than just slapping (Ex) on things that would otherwise be (Su) or (Sp). The "superhero" fighter I referred to doesn't manifest any abilities a normal member of his race can't... he just dials them up to 111. Don't give me random flight. Give me the ability to leap huge distances and because I'm Just That Strong. (I can jump in real life, but not fly. Jumping for miles Hulk-style is just a development of that).

Felyndiira

2013-11-06, 05:34 PM

That's why the ToB was unpopular, because it tried to give them mundane spellcasting.

I don't think this is the reason why ToB was "unpopular". Rather, from my observations, people shunned ToB for completely different reasons, including:

It's more powerful than 3.5 core mundanes (and thus must be broken to inexperienced DMs).
Weeaboo Fightan Magic
It's a new, drastically different system that not everyone wants to learn.
It was printed at the very tail end of 3.5, so people have less time to get used to it.
Martial classes seem very powerful at first level when they can one-shot stuff with ease.
Weeaboo Fightan Magic

ToB did have a lot of supernatural maneuvers. Devoted Spirit for crusaders all had a divine theme, while Desert Wind and Shadow Hand were pretty blatantly supernatural with (Ex) tags. A lot of people actually disliked it because of this, comparing it to basically anime sword magic and giving the book that (admittedly pretty funny) nickname.

So yeah, I don't know if giving melee (Su) abilities will be any more popular than ToB is.

Network

2013-11-06, 05:40 PM

To its core, all a class needs to be tier 1 is a list of options that covers every possible situation, and the capacity to switch easily between option. While it is easy for spellcasters to do it because FYIM, giving magic to fighter-type characters will not necessarily solve the issue. Also, a T1 fighter-type is most likely quite different from a T1 mundane. The Myth class is a good example of the former, but it's status as a mundane class may be argued over. Conversely, there are plenty of media examples of the latter, but they do not necessarily qualify as fighter-type.

Rebonack

2013-11-06, 06:46 PM

We've got a T1 Fighter. It's called a Cleric with Persistent Divine Power.

The problem with trying to make a martial class into a T1 is.. well... the stuff that a T1 can do is kind of silly. I would go so far as to say that T1 is just plain bad kit design since they can do anything while overshadowing other classes that specialize in doing that thing they just effortlessly replicated.

Ideally the Fighter should be THE BEST at his particular brand of monster-bopping while still being useful when his preferred brand of monster-bopping isn't an option. Give him Expert style class skills and skills per level so he has things to do aside from monster-bopping, give him class features that improve his mobility and allow him to shrug off effects that prevent him from monster-bopping monsters. Make it so shutting him down isn't trivial for a lot of high level encounters. That would potentially allow him to work well with other functional classes.

But unless the Fighter can somehow create his own personal pocket universe made of chocolate fondue or nuke someone he doesn't like from a different plane of existence or decide to build the Death Star whilst funding his work with salt cows or mail Explosive Rune bombs to people and then switch up his game-breaking combo on a day to day basis then he isn't ever going to be T1.

Personally? I think not being T1 is a good thing.

Angelalex242

2013-11-06, 08:51 PM

I suppose a fighter with Final Fantasy class limit breaks could do Teir 1 stuff. Omnislash could outdamage most things a wizard can do. Limits like Great Gospel can make most clerics jealous.

Rizban

2013-11-07, 11:07 AM

I definitely like the ideas of high tier fighter types. But, really, to hit tier 1 as a mundane, you need to be able to punch reality hard enough to rewrite history a la Superboy or at least fracture it enough to stop time or create your own demiplane...

Also, please don't reproduce this:
http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1365/65/1365653216587.jpg

kestrel404

2013-11-07, 11:38 AM

I see these threads come up every once in a while, and I've yet to be satisfied by a 'tier 1' fighter. At best, they end up as tier 2 - and usually it's tier 3 or lower, because they're pretty much always lacking in the one thing that defines tier 1.

Tier 1 is all about versatility. It's not a power thing - you can become godly-powerful as a tier 4, and still be tier 4 because you only have godly power when confronted with a combat situation, or a leadership challenge, or a social situation. Even if you can manage all 3 at once, that's only tier 2 at best.

To be Tier 1, you need to be able to say that for every possible challenge that the DM can throw at you, you have CHOICES as to how to overcome, by yourself and with no help beyond the resources listed on your character sheet.

You need to be able to say:
Combat against a Demon - I have 3 abilities that will end this encounter in one round, and 2 others that will make it so the combat doesn't have to happen at all.
Combat against a horde of Orcs - Same as above, but more choices.
The King wants you to rescue his daughter - An ability that lets you do it while standing in the throne room, and another one that takes you straight to where she is AND which makes both of you invulnerable for the rest of the day.
A serial killer is getting into locked houses at night and his next victim is one of three important NPCs - You can either identify the guy from what you know by interrogating summoned archangels, or you can set traps in all the locations he might strike, or you can just create bodyguards for all the NPCs out of thin air.

And on, and on.

That is an example of the Tier 1s in the game now. Most of them are significantly more powerful and versatile than the examples listed above, once you include splatbooks.

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 11:49 AM

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 11:53 AM

I see these threads come up every once in a while, and I've yet to be satisfied by a 'tier 1' fighter. At best, they end up as tier 2 - and usually it's tier 3 or lower, because they're pretty much always lacking in the one thing that defines tier 1.

Tier 1 is all about versatility. It's not a power thing - you can become godly-powerful as a tier 4, and still be tier 4 because you only have godly power when confronted with a combat situation, or a leadership challenge, or a social situation. Even if you can manage all 3 at once, that's only tier 2 at best.

This here is the exact reason why I'm not seeing a T1 mundane ever working. You can, however, possibly have something which feels like a fighter-type and still goes around telling reality to sit in a corner while he creates seven of himself and knows everything. I could quite easily write the Diablo II assassin up as a T2 without really thinking too hard about it, and it could quite possibly be made a T1. It could still feel like a mundane assassin, just without being one.

How are Tales characters not well-represented by Tome of Battle, but rather this hypothetical not-Tome of Battle Fighter?

Because Tales swordsmen feel like fighters who happen to use magic, ToB characters feel like spellcasters who use "Weaboo Fightin' Magic" as others put it, and are trying to pretend they're fighter-types. ToB feels like a mage who happens to use a sword; Asbel and Lloyd feel like swordsmen who happen to use magic.

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 12:01 PM

To you, maybe. If you were to put a Tales Swordsman next to Aragorn, I would certainly call the former a Wizard. What makes the Tales Swordsman feel relatively non-magical is the abundance and grandiose nature of the magic around him.

Heck, a Tales swordsman next to someone focusing solely on Iron Heart, Stone Dragon and White Raven would still feel considerably more magical.

That feels like a very hypocritical statement when Tales Swordsmen frequently carry moves like First Aid, Healing Wind, Guardian Field, and Eruption - this includes Kratos/Zelos, Asch, Flynn, and others.

Rizban

2013-11-07, 12:01 PM

How are Tales characters not well-represented by Tome of Battle, but rather this hypothetical not-Tome of Battle Fighter?

Tales swordsmen can frequently shoot shockwaves across the ground, hover and spin in mid-air, strike with 30+ stabs in 4 seconds, vertical leap four times their height slashing on their way up AND down, and punch someone so hard that a Lion comes out.

But they also mix this in with ordinary sword slashes and thrusts and parries.

Not to mention, Tome of Battle is VERY popular. It's just polarizing.

I have 2 problems with ToB.

It effectively invalidated the majority of what came before.
There are effectively no limits to your abilities. Almost everything is is limited to uses per day, including spells. Maneuvers are not.

ToB should have been more along the lines of Complete Scoundrel, offering new systems and options to existing classes rather than creating a new set of classes that are just inherently better.

My personal houserules for ToB, when we use it, are:
ToB base classes are banned.
Initiator Level = Base Attack Bonus
There are no limits to the number of maneuvers/stances you can gain from feats.
Nonspellcasters gain 1 maneuver from any school each time they gain an iterative attack.
ToB PrC entry requirements are usually a bit relaxed.

This incorporates ToB into the existing material without supplanting it, gives a nice little boost to noncasters, and it makes Fighter typically the best Initiator due to bonus feats.

My feeling is that if you're going to try to bring mundanes up in power, it needs to take a similar approach. Don't make an all new class that invalidates earlier classes. Make something previously published classes can use to become better.

To touch on my second point, spellcasters in my games are generally pretty limited, because I don't allow 5 minute adventuring days. If spellcasters in my games blow all their spells, they end up hiding a lot later in the day. Magic was supposedly "balanced" around this point. While it doesn't really balance things, it helps a lot at mid levels.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-07, 12:03 PM

ToB feels like a mage who happens to use a sword; Asbel and Lloyd feel like swordsmen who happen to use magic.

To stave off the next million posts and the death spiral of this thread, I'll summarize those million posts.

[Name Here] thinks Tome of Battle feels like Fighters pretending to be mages. [Other Name Here] thinks this is fine/isn't the case/is something else entirely. Nobody has any tangible arguments to convince everyone else, as it's almost entirely about how the classes "feel" to different people.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 12:04 PM

That feels like a very hypocritical statement when Tales Swordsmen frequently carry moves like First Aid, Healing Wind, and Eruption - this includes Kratos/Zelos, Asch, Flynn, and others.

You're confusing "Swordsman" (Lloyd) with "Magic Swordsman" (Kratos/Zelos). Magic Swordsman is a gish. Swordsman isn't, but that doesn't stop them using magic.

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 12:07 PM

That's certainly a better way of integrating Tome of Battle into the normal system, but I make no secret of the fact that I consider the normal system to be pretty bad. As a DM, I frequently banned all PHB classes except for Bard and Rogue and ran XPH and ToB instead. They're better designed systems (IMO, of course).

I am fine with people not liking ToB because it supplants the normal system. I'm objecting to the idea that somehow ToB feels like "mages with swords" when you're using Lloyd Irving (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccT0B2WLz14) as a headliner for mundane swordsmen.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 12:09 PM

To stave off the next million posts and the death spiral of this thread, I'll summarize those million posts.

[Name Here] thinks Tome of Battle feels like Fighters pretending to be mages. [Other Name Here] thinks this is fine/isn't the case/is something else entirely. Nobody has any tangible arguments to convince everyone else, as it's almost entirely about how the classes "feel" to different people.

Repeat ad infinitum.

My point is that a lot of people aren't happy about the current state of ToB, hence the seven million and four fighter fixes out there. The fact that some people are is fine - they can use ToB if they want to. The rest of us (which seems to be a majority) can use something else if we don't like the way ToB works. Invalidating an entire concept because only half of people like it doesn't make sense - I'm sure the majority of people don't play 3.0e, myself included: that doesn't mean that 3e is objectively bad, only that 3.5 changed some things that some people didn't like so some people could have something new.

mundane
Okay, trying to make you understand the purpose of this thread is a lost cause, isn't it?

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 12:11 PM

To stave off the next million posts and the death spiral of this thread, I'll summarize those million posts.

[Name Here] thinks Tome of Battle feels like Fighters pretending to be mages. [Other Name Here] thinks this is fine/isn't the case/is something else entirely. Nobody has any tangible arguments to convince everyone else, as it's almost entirely about how the classes "feel" to different people.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Hey Djinn. Been a while. :)

You're confusing "Swordsman" (Lloyd) with "Magic Swordsman" (Kratos/Zelos). Magic Swordsman is a gish. Swordsman isn't, but that doesn't stop them using magic.

Guy is clearly just a flat-out Swordsman, and you're saying that this isn't magic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZPu7AdeHgg)?

I'm pretty sure that Severing Wind (http://youtu.be/uiJBGO6MP08?t=45s) should count, not to mention the psuedo-infinite Self-FOF he gets with Dragon Tempest there, too.

EDIT: I'm aware of how your opening post begins. You should identify specific things that ToB doesn't do that your hypothetical not-ToB should do to address this issue.

Rizban

2013-11-07, 12:15 PM

My point is that a lot of people aren't happy about the current state of ToB, hence the seven million and four fighter fixes out there. The fact that some people are is fine - they can use ToB if they want to. The rest of us (which seems to be a majority) can use something else if we don't like the way ToB works. Invalidating an entire concept because only half of people like it doesn't make sense - I'm sure the majority of people don't play 3.0e, myself included: that doesn't mean that 3e is objectively bad, only that 3.5 changed some things that some people didn't like so some people could have something new.

Okay, trying to make you understand the purpose of this thread is a lost cause, isn't it?

My point in discussing ToB is as I said above. Throwing out the system entirely and supplanting it with something new isn't the same as revising existing material up to 3.5. I'd prefer to see a supplemental system that is then incorporated into previous material.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-07, 12:19 PM

Invalidating an entire concept because only half of people like it doesn't make sense.

What if that concept is inherently broken?

It's fairly well known that D&D is an extremely unbalanced system. And, as such, there are times when it is easier to scrap something and replace it then it is to patch it. ToB basically does that, if you want your game brought up to a Tier 3+ enviroment.

But, further, it doesn't invalidate the Fighter, because, regardless of your opinion on Tome of Battle, nobody is making you use it.

Back on the Thread Topic: I understand the reason behind the thread though, and it's a good question to ask. I think, however, that (Su) abilities are basically mandatory for a T1-2 Fighter type.

The issue is that D&D has such a huge spread of levels and power ranges. We don't have myths about 20th level Fighters to reference. The closest we have is stories about characters like Sun Wukong, Hercules (although I'd consider him far below 20th level), and so forth: characters with divine or supernatural abilities, immense martial skill, and a strange combination of mundane and the supernatural.

It's hard to make something that we don't have a conceptual reference for: our closest approximation is probably the sort of stuff Exalted, video games, and comic books have at their height of "martial" power, and that stuff seems to make many people recoil due to "fightan magicks."

I don't think there's a solution that will appease anything more than a small fraction of D&D's fanbase, unfortunately. Short of rewriting the entire mechanics of the system to make physical combat a more rewarding prospect.

Hey Djinn. Been a while. :)

Hey-o! And yes. Yes it has.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 12:20 PM

and you're saying that this isn't magic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZPu7AdeHgg)?

"Swordsman isn't, but that doesn't stop them using magic."
"but that doesn't stop them using magic."
"doesn't stop them using magic."
"using magic."

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keYYxlpckmA) (Apart from Kratos' grave spell) is an acceptable level of magic for my purposes; IHS'ing the plane of fire is not. Lloyd is swinging his sword and doing things with it: Asbel is a bit further out on the magic level but manages to make throwing down lightning bolts feel like a fighter attack. That's what I want to achieve. ToB, as it stands, reads as spellcasting which happens to work in an AMF.

kestrel404

2013-11-07, 12:21 PM

This here is the exact reason why I'm not seeing a T1 mundane ever working. You can, however, possibly have something which feels like a fighter-type and still goes around telling reality to sit in a corner while he creates seven of himself and knows everything. I could quite easily write the Diablo II assassin up as a T2 without really thinking too hard about it, and it could quite possibly be made a T1. It could still feel like a mundane assassin, just without being one.

Oh, I'm sure a T1 'Mundane' is entirely possible - it's just that you're going off on the wrong trail. You don't want a Fighter - the Fighter is trained and disciplined in a particular style, even multi-school fighters tend to be all about combining a limited number of specific arts or honing all arts into one path, and most importantly they specialize in combat and tend to ignore the other things

In order to get T1 versatility, you need to be able to handle all kinds of challenges with equal capabilities. You're not talking about warrior or a fighter, then - they're too focused on the fight. What you need to consider is the SOLDIER - the modern day version, who's job includes scouting terrain, dealing with civilians, planning the allocation of resources and field repair of complicated technical equipment - and that's the common ground pounder - specialists and special forces tend to be MORE versatile, rather than less.

If you want to make a T1 'fighter', focus on what can be accomplished through extensive military training, including specialist and officer training.

And for a T1 mundane, look towards 'mad scientists' - really, in a lot of ways you could easily re-fluff the Artificer as a T1 mundane without much in the way of changes. They already get most of their versatility through feats and skills, with their 'spell list' being mostly means of doing 'quick and dirty' what they could otherwise normally do with time and materials.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 12:26 PM

You're confusing "Swordsman" (Lloyd) with "Magic Swordsman" (Kratos/Zelos). Magic Swordsman is a gish. Swordsman isn't, but that doesn't stop them using magic.
You keep saying that "magic swordsman =/= swordsman who uses magic," but I fail to see any distinction between the two. All of your examples look like gish to me.

You're complaining that ToB is "too magic," and proposing that it be replaced by a system where fighters are explicitly magic-users in some capacity or another. Do you see the contradiction there?

Zaydos

2013-11-07, 12:26 PM

See I'm going to second what Djinn said.

I'm also going to question: The problem with ToB seems to be that the maneuvers feel like spells in their mechanical implementation, i.e. I activate ability X as opposed to "I make a three attacks allowing me to make my ultimate combo move" or something mechanically dissimilar/at-will?

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-07, 12:27 PM

IHS'ing the plane of fire is not.

Using the ability that almost everyone will agree is one of D&D's best examples of rules confusion, bad mechanical writing, and poor implementation as an example is probably something we should avoid.

Asbel is a bit further out on the magic level but manages to make throwing down lightning bolts feel like a fighter attack. That's what I want to achieve.

What in Tome of Battle doesn't feel like it could be a fighter attack to you? Assuming throwing down lighting bolts CAN feel like a fighter attack, which this post seems to imply is the case.

Edit: This isn't meant to be a "You should like Tome of Battle" post/comment. I'm actually trying to find out where you issue with it lies in more detail, so we can discuss what other approaches could work.

I'm also going to question: The problem with ToB seems to be that the maneuvers feel like spells in their mechanical implementation, i.e. I activate ability X as opposed to "I make a three attacks allowing me to make my ultimate combo move" or something mechanically dissimilar/at-will?

In my experience, Zaydos has hit the nail on the head. Is it the structure, mechanics, and use of the maneuvers that's causing the issue?

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 12:28 PM

"Swordsman isn't, but that doesn't stop them using magic."
"but that doesn't stop them using magic."
"doesn't stop them using magic."
"using magic."

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keYYxlpckmA) (Apart from Kratos' grave spell) is an acceptable level of magic for my purposes; IHS'ing the plane of fire is not. Lloyd is swinging his sword and doing things with it: Asbel is a bit further out on the magic level but manages to make throwing down lightning bolts feel like a fighter attack. That's what I want to achieve. ToB, as it stands, reads as spellcasting which happens to work in an AMF.

Why does it read as spellcasting which happens to work in an AMF? You are aware that the overwhelming majority of ToB maneuvers involve a weapon strike, yes? Even Desert Wind?

What in Tome of Battle doesn't feel like it could be a fighter attack to you? Assuming throwing down lighting bolts CAN feel like a fighter attack, which this post seems to imply is the case.

The specific move he's talking about - which is most famously used by Kratos/Zelos, the Magic Swordsmen - involves spearing someone with your sword while lightning hits them from above.

This seems very similar to most Desert Wind maneuvers to me. There are exceptions, yes... like the swordsmen firing shockwaves (Demon Fang, Azure Edge), healing themselves (Center), focusing their power (Steel), creating a defensive energy field (Guardian)...

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-07, 12:33 PM

This seems very similar to most Desert Wind maneuvers to me.

I mean, I would agree. But I'm a firm Tome of Battle advocate (although I think some parts could have been better executed), and I strongly believe that basically every school fits the D&D world well, and only Shadow Hand and Desert Wind are anything close to being the odd men out.

But I'm not in this thread to argue my point to hell and back, which is why I'm interested to see what specifically Jormengand takes umbrage with in ToB, and then what, if anything, I can think of that might manage to get us more versatile fighters without having to embrace anything that he finds unacceptable in a fighter.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 12:35 PM

You're complaining that ToB is "too magic,"

No. No I'm not. I'm saying that ToB feels too much like spellcasting, and then aiming to create someone who uses attacks which happen to be magical.

I'm also going to question: The problem with ToB seems to be that the maneuvers feel like spells in their mechanical implementation, i.e. I activate ability X as opposed to "I make a three attacks allowing me to make my ultimate combo move" or something mechanically dissimilar/at-will?

Essentially, yes. If you refluffed the wizard's spells, made a slight change in the way their spell slots worked, changed their HD, BAB and proficiencies and shoved a longsword in their hands, you would get something which looked very similar to ToB.

The specific move he's talking about - which is most famously used by Kratos/Zelos, the Magic Swordsmen - involves spearing someone with your sword while lightning hits them from above.
Nope. That's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about Asbel's B artes, which admittedly have a tendency to feel slightly (but only slightly) more like spells than the A artes. In fact, you should probably forget I even mentioned that because it's just going to confuse you more.

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 12:35 PM

I'm actually quite for that, since I agree with the basic premise of the thread: a mundane fighter simply has no place in a world that is far from it, at least for a balanced party. His choice of objection struck me as more of a handwave, and it's something that should be addressed in order to actually have the thread go somewhere.

No. No I'm not. I'm saying that ToB feels too much like spellcasting, and then aiming to create someone who uses attacks which happen to be magical.

Tome of battle is mundane, although it encompasses things which don't really make sense as mundane. It acts more like the Diablo II Barbarian: Give something fairly realistic-I-guess abilities and then throw on a few which aren't really realistic but oh well, and then present it as a fun mundane class.

And almost nobody liked playing the Diablo II barbarian.

These are incredibly different objections, I think most people would say.

Or am I just confused? :smallamused:

Rizban

2013-11-07, 12:37 PM

I think his complaint about ToB can be summed up like this: "Non-casters should not be Vancian."

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 12:38 PM

I think his complaint about ToB can be summed up like this: "Non-casters should not be Vancian."

Also "People who have magical abilities should not pretend that they aren't magic for the purposes of looking as though they're mundane."

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 12:39 PM

I think his complaint about ToB can be summed up like this: "Non-casters should not be Vancian."

That's perfectly fine and comprehensible. There's a lot of merit in that position. It's also not consistent with the section he opened up with, which makes him getting snide on getting called about it... not particularly cute.

Rizban

2013-11-07, 12:42 PM

That's perfectly fine and comprehensible. There's a lot of merit in that position. It's also not consistent with the section he opened up with, which makes him getting snide on getting called about it... not particularly cute.

I have mixed feelings about the statement. I want to say that they should have their own system, but there can be a lot said for having a unified mechanic. Personally, I'm not against having different unique systems, but some people won't want to learn lots of different rules they might never use.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-07, 12:42 PM

No. No I'm not. I'm saying that ToB feels too much like spellcasting, and then aiming to create someone who uses attacks which happen to be magical.

Essentially, yes. If you refluffed the wizard's spells, made a slight change in the way their spell slots worked, changed their HD, BAB and proficiencies and shoved a longsword in their hands, you would get something which looked very similar to ToB.

And here is where I find the issue.

D&D has a limited number of mechanics. Spells, due to their ever-present and ever-growing nature, have eventually touched on basically ever mechanic to exist in D&D. If a class feature, feat, racial ability, extraordinary ability, supernatural ability, and so on lets you do X, Y, or Z, chances are a spell can come close to replicating that effect. Which ultimately means that finding things that don't feel like spells can be difficult, especially if we have, in effect, a list of choices.

Which leads me to the implementation of how you use those abilities. I feel that Tome of Battle went for simplicity, perhaps at the expense of making things to spell-like. What would you suggest in place of the current mechanics?

I'm curious to see what direction you'd like to see things take, Jormengard, if you had your way.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 12:43 PM

These are incredibly different objections, I think most people would say.

Or am I just confused? :smallamused:

Let's have an example of why this makes no sense: I dislike my German teacher because she can't speak German and always acts as though she's superior to everyone else. These are incredibly different objections. They're also both reasons I object to her. They also both make sense.

Similarly, I think that ToB is pretending not to be magic and should honestly just own up and use (Su) abilities instead of trying to justify being (Ex), but without copying the spellcasting system.

Essentially, ToB is trying not to step outside reality, but failing, and also copies the spellcasting system. These two objections are not mutually exclusive.

I'm curious to see what direction you'd like to see things take, Jormengard, if you had your way.

That was the entire point of this thread until people started talking about ToB, which I knew (mundane divination, you see) was going to happen. I wanted suggestions on how this could actually be achieved, not "Use Tome of Battle." What if I don't want to use freaking Tome of Battle?

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-07, 12:50 PM

That was the entire point of this thread until people started talking about ToB, which I knew (mundane divination, you see) was going to happen. I wanted suggestions on how this could actually be achieved, not "Use Tome of Battle." What if I don't want to use freaking Tome of Battle?

The reason I asked is that I'm still not sure what you want to achieve, short of not using Tome of Battle.

When I ask what you'd like to see, I don't mean in terms of raw mechanics. I mean in terms of gameplay feel, and at-table play. I want to find out what parts of Tome of Battle cause it to feel magical, so we can avoid them. I also want to know what sort of things you don't think would feel overly magical: for example, if I can summon lightning strikes on my foes in combat, but I have to land a sword combo before I can (something out of, say, Devil May Cry), is that overly magical?. Should I have any psuedo-magic? If so, should it be expressly tied to martial combat strikes at all times?

In short, we need analysis before we can discuss implementation. That way we can better direct our design efforts. Currently I get that you think Tome of Battle is to spell-like, but I don't truly understand why you feel it's to spell-like.

Does that make sense?

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 12:51 PM

I have mixed feelings about the statement. I want to say that they should have their own system, but there can be a lot said for having a unified mechanic. Personally, I'm not against having different unique systems, but some people won't want to learn lots of different rules they might never use.

I personally prefer keeping the systems simple, which is why I limit my own games to XPH, ToB, Bard and Rogue. I don't even want to touch Binder; I think they're perfectly fine, mechanically, but I don't like having that extra book to reference constantly.

I'm not against people developing their own system, and I have felt at times with ToB that they could have tried a little harder to alter the core framework than they already did, it's just not something I typically want to incorporate into a game I'm running.

Let's have an example of why this makes no sense: I dislike my German teacher because she can't speak German and always acts as though she's superior to everyone else. These are incredibly different objections. They're also both reasons I object to her. They also both make sense.

Similarly, I think that ToB is pretending not to be magic and should honestly just own up and use (Su) abilities instead of trying to justify being (Ex), but without copying the spellcasting system.

Essentially, ToB is trying not to step outside reality, but failing, and also copies the spellcasting system. These two objections are not mutually exclusive.

You're allowed to hold both positions, but you opened up the thread as though that were your only objection.

That said:
1) Many of the ToB maneuvers which most grossly violate reality are already labeled as Supernatural.
2) Extraordinary abilities have long contained a set of abilities which outright violate physics. Evasion allows you to completely avoid a fireball that surrounds you on all sides with no cover. Na/Ex/Su/Sp/Psi are differentiations primarily for the purpose of seeing what feats interact with them, and how they interact with anti-magic fields. This gets more blatant with Epic, but it's true even with core:

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

In other words, they are listed as Extraordinary precisely because they should be. Extraordinary, in D&D terms, does not require "mundane."

If the latter is a principal concern, it really should not be. Whether there is an (Ex) or a (Su) next to an ability will do very little to affect people's opinions of the overall feel.

LordErebus12

2013-11-07, 01:02 PM

I've never really had a problem with ToB. While its not all Supernatural tagged, some of it is clearly supernatural. Desert Wind and Shadow Hand CLEARLY state that some of their abilities draw from supernatural sources. Hell, the whole chapter is called Blade Magic...

DESERT WIND
Speed and mobility are the hallmarks of the Desert Wind discipline. Desert Wind maneuvers often involve blinding flurries of blows, quick charges, and agile footwork. Some maneuvers from this school, however, draw power from the supernatural essence of the desert and allow an adept practitioner to scour his foes with fire.

The key skill for Desert Wind maneuvers is Tumble. Weapons associated with Desert Wind include the scimitar, light mace, light pick, falchion, and spear.

DEVOTED SPIRIT
Faith, piety, and purity of body and mind are the wellsprings of a warrior’s true power. Devoted Spirit maneuvers harness a practitioner’s spiritual strength and her zealous devotion to a cause. This discipline includes energies baneful to a creature opposed to the Devoted Spirit student’s cause, abilities
that can keep an adept fighting long after a more mundane warrior would fall to his enemies, and strikes infused with vengeful, fanatical power.

Intimidate is the key skill for Devoted Spirit. Devoted Spirit associated weapons include the falchion, greatclub, longsword, and maul.

SHADOW HAND
Never show an adversary what he expects to see. The Shadow Hand discipline emphasizes deception, misdirection, and surprise. The most effective blow is one struck against an enemy who does not even know he is in danger. Because the study of deceit as a philosophy often leads into darker practices, some Shadow Hand maneuvers employ the supernatural cold and darkness of pure shadow.

The key skill for the Shadow Hand discipline is Hide. Shadow Hand associated weapons include the dagger, short sword, sai, siangham, unarmed strike, and spiked chain.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 01:05 PM

The reason I asked is that I'm still not sure what you want to achieve, short of not using Tome of Battle.

When I ask what you'd like to see, I don't mean in terms of raw mechanics. I mean in terms of gameplay feel, and at-table play. I want to find out what parts of Tome of Battle cause it to feel magical, so we can avoid them.

In short, we need analysis before we can discuss implementation. That way we can better direct our design efforts. Currently I get that you think Tome of Battle is to spell-like, but I don't truly understand why you feel it's to spell-like.

Does that make sense?

I don't want something which is a rip-off of the casting system,
I don't want something which tries to justify itself as "mundane,"
I don't want anything which you can't imagine at least a few of the characters I listed at the start of the thread doing. If IHS functioned as intended, it would potentially be something I could see Lloyd doing, but I'd rather it wasn't just "You move, and end this effect" because I just don't see anyone beyond the Tales characters and maybe the assassin doing that.

I do want something that you can imagine someone doing through the act of hitting someone with a sword - a lot of ToB seems to be "You hit someone with a sword. Also, you do [Effect]" and I would prefer "You do [Effect] by hitting someone with a sword." An artificial re-fluff isn't good enough here; it should make sense.
I do want something that reads as someone who uses magic with his fighting, not magic as or alongside his fighting. The PF Magus did this a little with the channeling touch spells with your weapon, for example.

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 01:09 PM

So... I'm not sure. Do you want fighter-types to just hit stuff with magic strikes and own up to using magic, or do you want them to call lightning upon their foes while simultaneously not using spells and also not using something that rips off the casting system? Or some unholy combination of both? I don't understand.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-07, 01:11 PM

I don't want something which is a rip-off of the casting system

Would like more clarification here as to why Tome of Battle feels like a rip-off of the casting system.

I don't want something which tries to justify itself as "mundane"

So our default assumption is that fighters are magical? Just want to clarify.

I don't want anything which you can't imagine at least a few of the characters I listed at the start of the thread doing.

I guess this is where we might differ: I see a lot of the fancier "mundane" moves being just part and parcel of the standard attack/defend routine. But I also tend to gives bonuses for good cinematic RP at my table, so our rounds are usually more than "I attack him." Other tables may do things differently.

Still, we can work with this. The question I'll ask is this...what's your pinnacle example of a 20th level martial character? If you had to pick, say, 2 examples.

...Also, you do [Effect]" and I would prefer "You do [Effect] by hitting someone with a sword." An artificial re-fluff isn't good enough here; it should make sense.

How does "You hit with your sword. As a result, you also do X" fit with your perceptions?

I do want something that reads as someone who uses magic with his fighting, not magic as or alongside his fighting. The PF Magus did this a little with the channeling touch spells with your weapon, for example.

So you want the magical effects to be inherently tied to the martial combat, yet still dependent on the martial combat, correct? So we're looking at less Final Fantasy mage/warrior style, and more along the lines of, say, God of War's Kratos or Devil May Cry's Dante, right? A fluid blend of martial and magic into a single combat style?

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 01:14 PM

I don't want something which is a rip-off of the casting system,
I don't want something which tries to justify itself as "mundane,"
I don't want anything which you can't imagine at least a few of the characters I listed at the start of the thread doing. If IHS functioned as intended, it would potentially be something I could see Lloyd doing, but I'd rather it wasn't just "You move, and end this effect" because I just don't see anyone beyond the Tales characters and maybe the assassin doing that.

I do want something that you can imagine someone doing through the act of hitting someone with a sword - a lot of ToB seems to be "You hit someone with a sword. Also, you do [Effect]" and I would prefer "You do [Effect] by hitting someone with a sword." An artificial re-fluff isn't good enough here; it should make sense.
I do want something that reads as someone who uses magic with his fighting, not magic as or alongside his fighting. The PF Magus did this a little with the channeling touch spells with your weapon, for example.

Again, I don't quite get this distinction you're making, because out of your other examples which I recognize - the Dragonborn is clearly using magic alongside her axeplay. As someone who has extensively modded the game, in fact, shouts are pretty blatantly designed as spells. The only difference is that they're better in every respect but the shared CD.

The only times they're integrated are when you use a shout for a self-buff, really, like Elemental Fury. As far as Bleach goes, I'll focus entirely on Ichigo, since even of non-kido types, I think several of the Shinigami are practically spellcasting. (El Blind Man comes to mind.)

Can you show us more specific maneuvers from Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Tiger's Claw, Stone Dragon, and Setting Sun which fall in this category? I think we can all pretty much agree that Devoted Spirit, Desert Wind and Shadow Hand have examples of this behavior.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 01:22 PM

Could you give us an example or two of what you would consider an appropriate move for a "fighter-who-uses-magic-but-isn't-a-spellcaster?" Something like:

Lightning Blade-- You make a single lightning-fast thrust, catching your target totally unaware. As a swift action, make a melee attack against your foe's flat-footed AC.

or

Lightning Blade-- After striking a foe, you channel your chi to call down a ferocious lightning bolt. As a standard action, make a melee attack. If it hits, in addition to dealing normal damage, the foe must make a Reflex save (with a DC equal to the damage dealt) or take 6d6 electricity damage.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 01:47 PM

Again, I don't quite get this distinction you're making, because out of your other examples which I recognize - the Dragonborn is clearly using magic alongside her axeplay. As someone who has extensively modded the game, in fact, shouts are pretty blatantly designed as spells. The only difference is that they're better in every respect but the shared CD.

The only times they're integrated are when you use a shout for a self-buff, really, like Elemental Fury. As far as Bleach goes, I'll focus entirely on Ichigo, since even of non-kido types, I think several of the Shinigami are practically spellcasting. (El Blind Man comes to mind.)

I'll admit, the Dragonborn and some (note: not all) don't fit these definitions particularly well, but these design goals are not really designed with those characters in mind so much as Tales or D II characters.

That said, things like Whirlwhind Dash and even Unrelenting Force, as well as things like the Sai kido, can be very helpful to aid you in the use of melee attacks, so a class which had some abilities like that would be acceptable.

Could you give us an example or two of what you would consider an appropriate move for a "fighter-who-uses-magic-but-isn't-a-spellcaster?" Something like:

Lightning Blade-- You make a single lightning-fast thrust, catching your target totally unaware. As a swift action, make a melee attack against your foe's flat-footed AC.

or

Lightning Blade-- After striking a foe, you channel your chi to call down a ferocious lightning bolt. As a standard action, make a melee attack. If it hits, in addition to dealing normal damage, the foe must make a Reflex save (with a DC equal to the damage dealt) or take 6d6 electricity damage.

Either would be a perfectly good move: for example - as we seem to be using Lloyd as our basis for the type of character - some of his moves are mundane or nearly mundane (Sword Rain is just a lot of stabbing things, Tempest lets you jump over your enemy and swing your sword in a vertical circle) and others are not. Although neither of your examples would exactly make you T1, I get the feeling that wasn't your point.

Rebonack

2013-11-07, 01:47 PM

Maybe we can get a little clarity here.

By 'ripping off a magic system' are we basically saying that a hypothetical Fighter fix shouldn't use abilities that are somehow resource limited? Because that's what 'ripping off magic' seems to amount to, at least in the arguments that I'm seeing.

'Maneuvers are a resource that can be expended (like spells) and are therefore bad.'

Is that what we're trying to avoid?

Because from a kit-design standpoint tying a class' strongest features to some kind of resource frees up a lot of power to improve the potency and versatility of said features. The player has to make intelligent choices regarding how they expend their resources rather than just going 'I hit it with my sword', or 'I charge and hit it with my sword.'

Mechanically what are we trying to accomplish here?

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 01:50 PM

Either would be a perfectly good move: for example - as we seem to be using Lloyd as our basis for the type of character - some of his moves are mundane or nearly mundane (Sword Rain is just a lot of stabbing things, Tempest lets you jump over your enemy and swing your sword in a vertical circle) and others are not. Although neither of your examples would exactly make you T1, I get the feeling that wasn't your point.

But... That's exactly how most Tome of Battle maneuvers work. :smallconfused:

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 02:22 PM

But... That's exactly how most Tome of Battle maneuvers work. :smallconfused:

Of course it is. It's also how a lot of Su abilities and no small number of spells work. However, what I want to do doesn't necessarily require changing the ability itself so much as changing how the ability is used. ToB characters are essentially using the spell system but with swords. I want a character who uses a system designed to be used with swords, with swords. I'm sure that even the likes of Fireball would feel more fighter-ish if they weren't just a "I stand there and cast spells" ability, and an "I swing my sword and cast spells" ability is little more than a glorified touch spell, but if it were integrated into a different system, it might work.

To do that, we're gonna have to make a new system. And we're gonna have to design that system to be used with swords, rather than designing it for spellcasters and using it with swordsmen.

Although, I did once have a pretty awesome idea involving truenaming, but using attack rolls instead of truespeak checks...

Yakk

2013-11-07, 02:30 PM

An approach that I think might work (bringing the supernatural or super hero into the mundane classes) is to start with a true mundane class.

At level 1, the Fighter is only moderately outpaced by a Wizard, and by many measures is superior.

Push that Fighter to the limits of mundane (and a tad beyond) over the next 5 to 10 levels. This probably means amping up the Fighter as they stand.

Fighter: 10 level class.

Physical Paragon:
Each odd level gains a cumulative +1 inherit bonus to str, dex and con

Each even level gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus to str, dex and con

Trained Perfection:
Gains a +2 enhancement bonus per Fighter level to any Fighter class skill they have trained. This cannot exceed twice the number of skill points they have in the skill.

Heroic Talents:
(Ex) abiliteis that the character can just use. Ideally most of them should have both an in-combat and out-of-combat use.

etc. Basically a super-charged mundane chasis.

Example: Heroic Leap talent would grant:
1: You gain a +1 bonus to your jump check for every 5' running start in the action where you start the jump. You do not provoke OoAs for jumping movement in the air.
3: The bonus for a running start is now +2 per 5'.
5: DCs for vertical jumps equals feet of distance *2.
7: Your jumping distance is no longer limited by your speed. You finish the jump on the action where you jump. You may do standard actions while jumping, and finish afterwards.
9: DCs for vertical jumps are the same as for horizontal jumps.
10: The bonus for a running start is now +5 per 5'.

After 10 levels of this, you are done. From there on out, you pick PrCs.

You have 30 strength (18+2+10 class), a +43 Jump check (13+10 attribute+20 class), and some Heroic Talents. You are doing things that Xena of Hercules or Buffy might do on TV, or other action movie heroes do.

These PrCs are often far above mundane. They require +10 BaB to enter them, high attributes (including any non-magical inherit and enhancement bonuses) for a soft gate, or particular Heroic Talents for a hard gate, plus some plot event.

The plot event can be something like: Drink the heartblood of a dragon, be chosen as the prophesied king of legend reborn, slay a demon or devil, etc.

That plot event provides the (Su) excuse for your abilities, while the 10 level Mundane class provides the mechanical "gateway" to entering the super-powered class.

Breathing fire and being immune to same, jumping 100s of feet, catching swords with your hands, smashing through spells, seeing the unseen, you and your actions being immune to divination spells, magic washing off you like water: all are things that are relatively easy to justify for a hero who drank the heart blood of a dragon, but harder to justify for a "pure mundane".

(As an aside, divination spell immunity to you and your actions actually provides a way to track you. Look for events that do not line up with what divination says. A scry spell on a door that you smash down would show it as intact, until you got the report that it was smashed down through non-divination means... but once you did get that report, you'd know that someone divination-immune had smashed it down!)

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 02:31 PM

Of course it is. It's also how a lot of Su abilities and no small number of spells work. However, what I want to do doesn't necessarily require changing the ability itself so much as changing how the ability is used. ToB characters are essentially using the spell system but with swords. I want a character who uses a system designed to be used with swords, with swords. I'm sure that even the likes of Fireball would feel more fighter-ish if they weren't just a "I stand there and cast spells" ability, and an "I swing my sword and cast spells" ability is little more than a glorified touch spell, but if it were integrated into a different system, it might work.

To do that, we're gonna have to make a new system. And we're gonna have to design that system to be used with swords, rather than designing it for spellcasters and using it with swordsmen.

Although, I did once have a pretty awesome idea involving truenaming, but using attack rolls instead of truespeak checks...

I do want something that you can imagine someone doing through the act of hitting someone with a sword - a lot of ToB seems to be "You hit someone with a sword. Also, you do [Effect]" and I would prefer "You do [Effect] by hitting someone with a sword." An artificial re-fluff isn't good enough here; it should make sense.

The only way I can read the latter comment is if you didn't mean that to be a general criticism of Tome of Battle, but picking out a relatively small subset in it.

Really, I think the only criticism which is clear and persistent is the Vancian 9-level maneuver system. Which is a fair angle of attack. Focusing on these other angles, even if there is a distinction, won't serve to win over the not-a-fan-of-ToB crowd.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 02:31 PM

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-07, 02:31 PM

To do that, we're gonna have to make a new system. And we're gonna have to design that system to be used with swords, rather than designing it for spellcasters and using it with swordsmen.

Fair enough. I would suggest that the D&D system isn't the system to do this in though...there's not enough mechanical difference between "spell" and "non-spell" to really make the distinction clear.

For example: the difference between fireball, a Dragon's breath weapon, an alchemical explosion, an actual explosion, a Desert Wind martial maneuver, and a roaring inferno is, effectively, minimal. A few alterations of shape, damage value, and what sort of save is allowed. Yet some are magic, some are natural, and some are man-made. The difference between feats and class features is also minimal, and sometimes they actually are the same thing.

Spells, Vestige Powers, Invocations, Maneuvers, Infusions, Mysteries, True-naming powers...all these read almost exactly the same, with minor mechanical differences to distinguish them. Classes without these subsystems tend to be non-versatile and thus low Tier. So I'm not sure what sort of "unique" subsystem you want, but I'm not sure D&D can really provide it.

We can tie the effects to attacks or whatever but, in the end, you're still reading a block of mechanics that, in the end, does X, Y, and Z, possibly with damage/other effects, possibly with a saving throw. It'll end up reading like a spell or class feature at the end of the day.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 02:32 PM

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 02:51 PM

ToB characters are essentially using the spell system but with swords. I want a character who uses a system designed to be used with swords, with swords. I'm sure that even the likes of Fireball would feel more fighter-ish if they weren't just a "I stand there and cast spells" ability, and an "I swing my sword and cast spells" ability is little more than a glorified touch spell, but if it were integrated into a different system, it might work.

Your argument against Tome of Battle not working to create exactly the style of play you want doesn't have a leg to stand on. If you just want versatile fighter-types without using Tome of Battle because you just don't want Tome of Battle, that's fine, just say so, but stop arguing that Tome of Battle doesn't mechanically do what you want. Because it absolutely does.

Yakk

2013-11-07, 03:00 PM

I would never, ever want to play a class which just added numbers to my stats and skills.
The chassis, the +attributes and +skill bonuses, are just there to provide a solid backbone. Magical characters can gain the same bonuses via magic (from making their own magic items, through spells like Jump or Knock).

But that isn't what that one Talent (Heroic Leap) I wrote up did. It changed the Jump rules quite substantially.

If you are gaining 1-3 such Talents per level, you end up with a character with *lots* of options. And for the first 10 levels, that kind of boost might be more than enough to keep up with tier 1-2 spellcasters.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 03:14 PM

No, really. Before you go about designing an entirely new subsystem, read the existing one. Play an encounter. While maneuvers superficially look like spells, what with the 9 levels and different schools and such, in play it really doesn't feel like casting-- at least no more than any other "I use X ability this turn" system does.

I have actually used ToB before... and it felt like spellcasting. With swords! And if I wanted to do spellcasting, with swords! I'd play a god-damned magus. I want to do magic. With swords! but not actual spellcasting. With swords! Because D&D is an inherently magical setting, but it doesn't have to be one where the only way to win is by casting spells. It doesn't matter if you prepare spells (wizard, cleric, magus, inquisitor, paladin I think) have a spells known list and X spells of each level (sorcerer, bard, oracle) have a totally-not-spells known list and use points to totally-not-cast them (all psionics), roll skill checks to cast them (Truenamer) have them determined randomly (Crusader) or rip off one of these systems and pretend you didn't (Most of ToB), you're doing the same thing.

Your argument against Tome of Battle not working to create exactly the style of play you want doesn't have a leg to stand on. If you just want versatile fighter-types without using Tome of Battle because you just don't want Tome of Battle, that's fine, just say so, but stop arguing that Tome of Battle doesn't mechanically do what you want. Because it absolutely does.

Except for the part where it doesn't...

The point is, can people shut up about the stupid Tome of Battle! If I want to cast spells I'll be a bloody wizard, or a sorcerer, or whatever, and if I don't then I'm not going to hold a sword, cast spells and pretend to be a mundane. What I want is a class which doesn't cast spells in anything remotely similar to a conventional way, and which feels like a melee class, and which can actually stand up to a wizard in both power and versatility. ToB fails at all of these. If you want to talk about the Tome of Weaboo Fightan' magic, fine, but get your own thread. Anyone who threadjacks to say "Use the ToB," is henceforth going to be ignored, because I honestly can't be bothered to put up with you any more. Good day.

The chassis, the +attributes and +skill bonuses, are just there to provide a solid backbone. Magical characters can gain the same bonuses via magic (from making their own magic items, through spells like Jump or Knock).

But that isn't what that one Talent (Heroic Leap) I wrote up did. It changed the Jump rules quite substantially.

If you are gaining 1-3 such Talents per level, you end up with a character with *lots* of options. And for the first 10 levels, that kind of boost might be more than enough to keep up with tier 1-2 spellcasters.
Thanks for not talking about ToB. :p

The trouble with your jump thing, is that the progression doesn't give you much in the way of new stuff:
1: Increases numbers under certain circumstances, stops enemies doing one thing.
3: Increases numbers under certain circumstances.
5: Decreases numbers under certain circumstances.
7: Removes numbers under certain circumstances; allows you to do something that would work perfectly well as a feat.
9: Decreases numbers under certain circumstances.
10: Increases numbers under certain circumstances.

The basic idea behind this would make an interesting class (indeed, I have begun making such a class) if you provided new uses for the skills rather than modifying the old ones. Increasing numbers is the domain of a relatively small number of spells, and the ones that matter are usually things which do something that can't be achieved by changing numbers (I suppose that technically, Hold Person reduces your numbers of actions per round and teleport changes your co-ordinates, but you know what I mean).

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 03:19 PM

I'm sorry, but I can't tell what you want. All I'm getting is magic, but not that kind of magic. I'd like to be able to help you, but I don't understand what you're asking for.

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 03:44 PM

It doesn't matter if you prepare spells (wizard, cleric, magus, inquisitor, paladin I think) have a spells known list and X spells of each level (sorcerer, bard, oracle) have a totally-not-spells known list and use points to totally-not-cast them (all psionics), roll skill checks to cast them (Truenamer) have them determined randomly (Crusader) or rip off one of these systems and pretend you didn't (Most of ToB), you're doing the same thing.

Okay, now we're into WTF territory. You're including Truenaming as a subsystem that rips off spellcasting now? What the hell are we supposed to design that both utilizes overtly magical effects and yet doesn't ping on your radar as spellcasting if, in your eyes, Truenaming/Manevuers = spellcasting? I just don't get it. You want magic that's not spells. You want options that aren't powers. You want fighting with swords that shoot lightning bolts that uses some perfect homebrew system that doesn't exist and you're not giving anyone any idea of how you think something like that could be designed except by saying, "**** Tome of Battle and **** you."

You are not helping yourself.

What I want is a class which doesn't cast spells in anything remotely similar to a conventional way, and which feels like a melee class, and which can actually stand up to a wizard in both power and versatility. ToB fails at all of these.

Tome of Battle fails at... one of those. Maybe one and a half. But guess what, pal, standing up to a Wizard in both power and versatility has been attempted numerous times before. Without spells, it's impossible to do because the sheer amount of design work that is required to pull it off would literally rival the amount of design, and required number of designers, needed to create a completely functioning new game system.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 03:54 PM

You're including Truenaming as a subsystem that rips off spellcasting now?
It's a sorcerer with skill checks. That's literally what it is. Apart from the specifics of the spell list(s), number of spells known, and the other class features (like how the truenamer doesn't have a familiar, and the sorcerer doesn't have SMNaIaT) there aren't a lot of differences between a truenamer and a sorcerer who uses the truespeak DCs (or a modified version thereof so that the numerical values made sense) instead of spells/day. It's quite a well-concealed rip-off of spellcasting, but it's a rip-off of spellcasting. The exact same is true of ToB.

I'm sorry, but I can't tell what you want. All I'm getting is magic, but not that kind of magic.

Basically, yes. Magic which isn't spellcasting. Magic which actually works well with the D&D system to recreate the feeling of being Lloyd, or the assassin, or Garen, rather than literally being "I take the wizard, do X, Y and Z to his method of spellcasting, stick him in a fighter and cast spells at people. With swords!"

Think of the assassin: her fighting method is based on "Charge up" skills which have more effect the more times you hit someone with them, and then "Finishing moves" which allow you to expend your charges to use the extra effect. They're not spammable so you don't need a daily limit on them, so you don't need to use the normal spellcasting system. Because it's based around hitting things (With swor... uh, claws!) it makes it feel slightly more fighter-y, and the part where you hit things seems a little less incidental, and because it can potentially be used to apply holding effects, save or dies (though if you have a decent critical mod, holding effect are basically save or die spells anyway) it may be possible to take the concept of the Diablo II assassin to Tier one.

For example, let's take Cobra Strike and Dragon Flight. Cobra Strike steals a percentage of the opponent's heath on the first hit. The second also restores mana (though this needn't be transferred to the D&D version). The third doubles the effect. When you use a finishing move, you steal even more health and mana and have a bonus chance to hit.

Dragon's flight teleports you to an enemy, and then attacks them. It is a finishing move.

So, the assassin is hitting things to build up power, and releasing this power later. Cobra Strike is a good example because it adds a percentage of your damage as life steal, making how good you are at hurting things actually important, rather than just your ability to make sure you hit. If we based our hypothetical class on that, then we would have a new system which would actually make a character who uses magic in a way which makes them feel (and be) melee. That, my friends, is progress.

That is roughly what I'm looking for. To recap:
- Abilities which don't work in the same sort of way as spellcasting, psionics, Truenaming, ToB, etc. especially where their arbitrary uses/day or psi points or laws of resistance, each a more blatant way of preserving balance at the cost of immersion, are used. Having "Energy" which represents how much a character can do in a short space of time to prevent otherwise-spammable abilities, or having cooldown times measured in rounds, might be acceptable.
- Fighting should be an integral part of the system - attacking an opponent and doing [Effect] if you hit is very much like a touch spell. With swords! That said, it can be used as part of an assassin's charge-up system because it brings with it the implication that your weapon is doing something more interesting than just being used to hit someone with a spell.
- It should be tier 1. Duh.

Rebonack

2013-11-07, 03:57 PM

Got no reply to my inquiry, so I'm kinda flying blind here. From what I understand the following are taboo as a mechanical way to link a class feature to a resource.

Bad: Class features that are prepared and restored after 8 hours.
Bad: Class features that are prepared and restored after 5 minutes.

Okay, so those are out? What kind of resource should be used? Are some resources okay? Or does this hypothetical Fighter fix need to be resourceless?

And if you really want Fighters to be a T1 class then I'll offer the following with a completely straight face.

Fighter Bonus Feat
Punch the Universe
Prerequisite: Fighter level 12
Benefit: You may punch the universe as a standard action. Make an attack roll against AC (15 plus the Encounter's Challenge Rating). If you beat the AC you win the encounter.

This feat is an Extraordinary Special Attack.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 04:00 PM

OK, so you're looking for something along the lines of soup-up tactical feats, yes? A sort of maneuver chain, with increasing effects as you work further down the chain?

EDIT: To expand on what Ziegander said... tier 1 means out-of-combat abilities that are waaaay better than anything we can imagine. The spells that let wizards mindrape enemies, create their own planes, explode the WBL system into infinite gold pieces, and generally act like gods. It's ludicrously hard to do without giving up and saying "**** it, have spells," looks broken when you try for it, and... well, I don't think it'll go well with the kind of combo system you seem to be describing.

Tier 3 may be achievable, although tying everything to swordplay might make things difficult.

EDIT:
Fighter Bonus Feat
Punch the Universe
Prerequisite: Fighter level 12
Benefit: You may punch the universe as a standard action. Make an attack roll against AC (15 plus the Encounter's Challenge Rating). If you beat the AC you win the encounter.

This feat is an Extraordinary Special Attack.
Still only T4, since you still can't contribute out of combat. :smalltongue:

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 04:02 PM

That is roughly what I'm looking for. To recap:
- Abilities which don't work in the same sort of way as spellcasting, psionics, Truenaming, ToB, etc. especially where their arbitrary uses/day or psi points or laws of resistance, each a more blatant way of preserving balance at the cost of immersion, are used. Having "Energy" which represents how much a character can do in a short space of time to prevent otherwise-spammable abilities, or having cooldown times measured in rounds, might be acceptable.
- Fighting should be an integral part of the system - attacking an opponent and doing [Effect] if you hit is very much like a touch spell. With swords! That said, it can be used as part of an assassin's charge-up system because it brings with it the implication that your weapon is doing something more interesting than just being used to hit someone with a spell.
- It should be tier 1. Duh.

You can't have all of these things. It is impossible. Not with 10,000 men could you do this. It is folly.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 04:07 PM

Bad: Class features that are prepared and restored after 8 hours.
Bad: Class features that are prepared and restored after 5 minutes.

What is fine, however, are class features which are known, and restored after, say, 3 rounds, just to stop you spamming them - perhaps in my assassin I was building up there, I would stop you using Dragon's Flight more than once every two or three rounds just to stop you teleporting around and ignoring the charge-up skills. Alternatively, an energy system where you got some back every round might work (so like psi points that come back) but I wouldn't be in its favour.

OK, so you're looking for something along the lines of soup-up tactical feats, yes? A sort of maneuver chain, with increasing effects as you work further down the chain?
Or a sort of (Su) ability chain, with increasing effects as you work down the chain, yes. :smallamused: This doesn't need to be tacked onto ToB, it can literally be added as a set of Su abilities just as easily as (or more easily than) manoeuvres. It also means that people who don't own (or don't want to use) ToB (Like, say, me) can enjoy my efforts.

That said, I suppose you could use the ToB rules if you wanted. I dunno, if/when I make this I'd be grateful if you converted it to ToB for people who'd rather use those rules.

You can't have all of these things. It is impossible. Not with 10,000 men could you do this. It is folly.
Well, I guess we'll have to use the scientist's method to find out. To the brewing lab!

(In other words, Challenge Accepted!)

Angelalex242

2013-11-07, 04:08 PM

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 04:25 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264580

Convert these 12 swords into stances a fighter can use.

That ougghta do it for Teir 1 Fighter. As a nod to balance, say they can only use one of these stances at a time till high level, when they can attempt to 'dual wield', but it requires a pretty big will save.

It would probably be T3 or maybe T2, because it only does 12 things. The fact that it does those things really, really well (Can become immune to everything except unarmed strikes and sunder everything, can heal someone to perfect health, can get everyone within 1000 feet to serve you unless they pass a high-DC save of increasing difficulty, and so forth) just makes you a broken T3, not a T1.

In any case, I'm kind of liking this assassin-style idea, so I'm gonna use that. Now, where to start...

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 04:27 PM

Or a sort of (Su) ability chain, with increasing effects as you work down the chain, yes. :smallamused: This doesn't need to be tacked onto ToB, it can literally be added as a set of Su abilities just as easily as (or more easily than) manoeuvres. It also means that people who don't own (or don't want to use) ToB (Like, say, me) can enjoy my efforts.
OK, sure. It'd be easy enough to build your own, using ToB for inspiration. Now we have a general idea of what we're doing.

But... how do you plan to make it T1? I don't mean in terms of raw combat power, I mean in terms of raw versatile power. How are you going to handle long-range travel? Planar travel? Tactical teleportation? Minionmancy? WBL-busting? Social encounters? Divinations?

Rebonack

2013-11-07, 04:33 PM

OK, so you're looking for something along the lines of soup-up tactical feats, yes? A sort of maneuver chain, with increasing effects as you work further down the chain?

EDIT:
Still only T4, since you still can't contribute out of combat. :smalltongue:

Nah, an Encounter can be, strictly speaking, most anything if you really dig into the rules. Traps are an encounter with a CR, too. Technically you could even consider most NPC interactions as encounters if you're willing to consider the CR of the NPC in question.

Mostly my point is trying to give a feel for just how silly the very concept of the Tier One classes is by putting it into terms that would be applicable to the Fighter.

What is fine, however, are class features which are known, and restored after, say, 3 rounds, just to stop you spamming them - perhaps in my assassin I was building up there, I would stop you using Dragon's Flight more than once every two or three rounds just to stop you teleporting around and ignoring the charge-up skills.

Ah! So cooldown effects ARE okay then?

Alright. After you pop a class feature it goes into a cooldown. That cooldown might end at the beginning of your next turn to prevent you from spamming it on a Full Attack. Or it might take a certain number of rounds before you can use it again for more powerful class features.

Alternately: After you pop a class feature it becomes unavailable. When you hit an opponent with an unaugmented attack one class feature becomes available again.

Alternately: After you pop a class feature it becomes unavailable. When you block or avoid an enemy attack one class feature becomes available again.

Alternately: Each time you hit a foe or avoid an attack you gain two Weapon Focus Points. Each time you miss a foe or get hit you gain one Weapon Focus Point. You may use your Weapon Focus Points to fuel and augment your class features.

Do Note: just giving the Fighter more things they can do in combat will bump them up to a T3 or T4 depending on how it is handled. Making a Fighter into a T1 requires that they be able to do anything and switch it up at will.

That means the Fighter must be able to do things such as, but not limited to: beat tough monsters in a dozen ways that place him in no danger, be sneaky, allow his party to avoid encounters, disable traps, get NPCs to do what he wants, travel to anywhere at a moment's notice, be immune to death, know anything, create anything, make a ton of copies of himself, convince NPCs that they are actually a yellow-footed rock wallaby, transform NPCs into a yellow-footed rock wallaby, create game-save points, be a walrus, convince the Storm Troopers that these aren't the droids they're looking for, create endless armies of minions, ect.

zlefin

2013-11-07, 04:35 PM

differing opinions on how the tier system works, especially with respect to tier 1's; and differing opinions on what constitutes magic.

I don't see how establishing parameters on the next fighter fix does much; just let them pile on whether they want to use magic or not.
Also, don't aim for tier 1, but for tier 3.

Was there a request in this thread for a t1 mundane-ish, or is this just the usual rehashing of arguments?

edit: thanks responder below.
Man, I wish people would think more about the tier system; and view it not as prescriptive but descriptive.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 04:37 PM

It started with "should fighter fixes use magic," spiralled into a quick ToB argument, and now it seems to be brainstorming for a new class to be made by Jormengand.

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 04:46 PM

In any case, I'm kind of liking this assassin-style idea, so I'm gonna use that. Now, where to start...

I won't tell you not to do it, but "combo-magic" using a mechanism of charging up special attacks by swording enemies is not going to reach Tier 1. Ever. At best it'll be a powerful Tier 4. This is why I tried to tell you that what you want really is impossible.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 04:48 PM

OK, sure. It'd be easy enough to build your own, using ToB for inspiration. Now we have a general idea of what we're doing.

But... how do you plan to make it T1? I don't mean in terms of raw combat power, I mean in terms of raw versatile power. How are you going to handle long-range travel? Planar travel? Tactical teleportation? Minionmancy? WBL-busting? Social encounters? Divinations?

Well, let's see:

long-range travel? Planar travel?

Turn Dragon's Flight into a charge-up at high levels, and make the finishing move able to take you a long distance or even to another plane if you have enough charges.

Tactical teleportation?

That's what Dragon's Flight already does. It combines whack in the face, finishing move and short-ranged teleport, probably all in a standard action's work.

Minionmancy?

Turn the assassin's Mind Blast into a charge-up attack which, say, causes enemies to be less effective, and then have the finishing move turn people to your side.

WBL-busting?

A charge-up which starts breaking people's weapons and armour when you charge it up and makes a save-or-turn-into-gold attack when you release it.

Or ladders.

Social encounters?

Punch people until they agree with you.

Divinations?

A charge-up ability which does things like confuse the target, but when you finish it, releasing one charge might steal some information from the target, two might steal memories from the target and three might mind rape the target.

That means the Fighter must be able to do things such as, but not limited to: beat tough monsters in a dozen ways that place him in no danger, be sneaky, allow his party to avoid encounters, disable traps, get NPCs to do what he wants, travel to anywhere at a moment's notice, be immune to death, know anything, create anything, make a ton of copies of himself, convince NPCs that they are actually a yellow-footed rock wallaby, transform NPCs into a yellow-footed rock wallaby, create game-save points, be a walrus, convince the Storm Troopers that these aren't the droids they're looking for, create endless armies of minions, ect.

beat tough monsters in a dozen ways that place him in no danger

That's what this class does.

be sneaky, allow his party to avoid encounters

Cheat and steal the assassin's Cloak of Shadows.

disable traps

Does standing on them and making my save count?

be immune to death

With the combination of healing when you hit things, probably a way to increase AC, saves and things you can be at the very least highly resistant to death.

make a ton of copies of himself

Perhaps stealing Shadow Warrior/Master from the Assassin's skill tree wouldn't be a bad idea here.

...

Okay, we can do this forever. A T1 character doesn't quite need all of these things - even in core, the cleric, druid and wizard are undeniably T1. So let's not get on to all the things that they can't do in core, hmm?

I won't tell you not to do it, but "combo-magic" using a mechanism of charging up special attacks by swording enemies is not going to reach Tier 1. Ever. At best it'll be a powerful Tier 4. This is why I tried to tell you that what you want really is impossible.

Even if it replicates T1 abilities?

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 05:02 PM

How are you going to charge things up out of combat? The ol' bag-of-rats trick?

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 05:03 PM

Does standing on them and making my save count?

No.

Okay, we can do this forever. A T1 character doesn't quite need all of these things - even in core, the cleric, druid and wizard are undeniably T1. So let's not get on to all the things that they can't do in core, hmm?

In core a Cleric, Druid, and Wizard can all do all of those things. And many more things besides. No, one character may not, necessarily, do all of those things in one day, but, yes, that's what being Tier 1 means. You can just do anything and everything. And usually you're really, really good at it.

Even if it replicates T1 abilities?

Even then. If you want to be Tier 1, you need to replicate ALL things that another Tier 1 class can do. Not just some of them, some of the time, if you hit with a few melee attacks.

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 05:04 PM

I would implement a fatigue system of some kind, whereby a trick can be done repeatedly but at greater and greater expense if used in succession, such as major attack and save penalties, or a Stamina Point resource (an encounter-based Stamina Point source with augments is would be similar to what I did in my version of Avatar d20 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36548716/Avatar-the-Last-d20-Supplement-MAIN-SOURCE), though that was based on skill check penalties and, in hindsight, was too complicated for quick play). In order to keep mechanics simple, as many things as possible should follow the same cooldown period/fatigue penalty system.

But there is no way you can get to Tier 1 in power with the constraints you've mentioned - nor, in my opinion, should you ever aim to. You've mentioned that you want these abilities to be thematically tied to being melee - well, what sword ability logically would replicate Rope Trick (a very powerful tactic at low levels?)

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 05:14 PM

Even then. If you want to be Tier 1, you need to replicate ALL things that another Tier 1 class can do. Not just some of them, some of the time, if you hit with a few melee attacks.
well, what sword ability logically would replicate Rope Trick?

Anything, A.N.Y.T.H.I.N.G. that a Tier 1 can do, I can describe using this chain of combos and finishing moves. For Rope Trick, I cut a hole in the universe to put stuff in with the finishing move. Maybe I attack some[one/thing], and if I hit and they fail or forego their save, they are put in an extradimensional space for a while.

Of course, I don't necessarily have to have the same game-breaking abilities as the core cleric/wizard/druid anyway.

Morty

2013-11-07, 05:15 PM

Somewhere along the line, people seem to have lost the idea that Tier 1 is not a thing you should strive for.

Seerow

2013-11-07, 05:15 PM

I would implement a fatigue system of some kind, whereby a trick can be done repeatedly but at greater and greater expense if used in succession, such as major attack and save penalties, or a Stamina Point resource. In order to keep mechanics simple, as many things as possible should follow the same cooldown period/fatigue penalty system.

This is where I would go with it as well. (Except also include penalties for abilities that are not attacks. ie teleporting isn't something you really want to be spammed generally. Using a teleport maneuver in rapid succession should get slapped with penalties of longer action times or shorter range or whatever). But yeah, I'd go with a stamina pool + a mechanic that encourages you to shake up ability usage.

I'd also personally go with having multiple fighting styles that can be swapped between at will (possibly also with a stamina penalty). Each style is made up of 1-5 abilities picked by the player. These styles can be switched between either as a full round action, or as a swift action with a stamina cost and incurring the penalties for using abilities in succession. A character can have an unlimited number of styles, but gains 0-2 abilities per level (depending on class), which he then decides to place into a style he already has or create a new one. A character can spend time and/or money in-game to acquire more abilities.

The idea here would be to separate abilities into discrete chunks that are easier for the player to parse. The base number of abilities is low enough to be managed by an average player, while a player more familiar with the rules can eventually have dozens of styles making up every ability in the book. Because getting access to literally everything is the hallmark of a t2 vs t1, but getting that without being completely overwhelming in a way that still feels mundane is probably the biggest struggle of any t1 mundane attempt.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 05:17 PM

Somewhere along the line, people seem to have lost the idea that Tier 1 is not a thing you should strive for.

Oh, I know that. It's just that some people like playing T1 games, and also like being fightery. We should play to that type of player's interests as much as the "Golden T3."

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 05:20 PM

Anything, A.N.Y.T.H.I.N.G. that a Tier 1 can do, I can describe using this chain of combos and finishing moves.

Okay. If you did pull off a miracle of endurance design and actually wrote up combo-chains that replicated every single spell in the PHB, then you'll still be Tier 2 at best.

What??? How?!

Because you still rely on hitting enemies with a combo of melee (or ranged, whatever) attacks to do anything.

Of course, I don't necessarily have to have the same game-breaking abilities as the core cleric/wizard/druid anyway.

If you want to be Tier 1 you do.

And how does any of this not feel like spells again?

Angelalex242

2013-11-07, 05:22 PM

It would probably be T3 or maybe T2, because it only does 12 things. The fact that it does those things really, really well (Can become immune to everything except unarmed strikes and sunder everything, can heal someone to perfect health, can get everyone within 1000 feet to serve you unless they pass a high-DC save of increasing difficulty, and so forth) just makes you a broken T3, not a T1.

In any case, I'm kind of liking this assassin-style idea, so I'm gonna use that. Now, where to start...

To which I say:Don't underestimate Coinspinner stance. What's that you say? You needed to go to Level 352 of the Abyss? As luck would have it, you trip over a rock, triggering an ancient circle that just happens to create a Gate that goes exactly where you needed to go. And I do mean exactly...it'll take you where you're going, not within 500 miles, but EXACTLY. Luckily, it just happened to send you there.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 05:23 PM

And how does any of this not feel like spells again?

Because it actually uses such novelties as your attack damage to work out the effect of your attack, rather than being "I have a sword, but hey, I still cast spells. With swords!"

To which I say:Don't underestimate Coinspinner stance. What's that you say? You needed to go to Level 352 of the Abyss? As luck would have it, you trip over a rock, triggering an ancient circle that just happens to create a Gate that goes exactly where you needed to go. And I do mean exactly...it'll take you where you're going, not within 500 miles, but EXACTLY. Luckily, it just happened to send you there.

But that's not being a fighter-type... that's "Just so happening" to win everything ever rather than swinging swords to win everything ever.

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 05:27 PM

Because it actually uses such novelties as your attack damage to work out the effect of your attack, rather than being "I have a sword, but hey, I still cast spells. With swords!"

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I personally guarantee you this is never getting off the ground.

Morty

2013-11-07, 05:31 PM

Oh, I know that. It's just that some people like playing T1 games, and also like being fightery. We should play to that type of player's interests as much as the "Golden T3."

No, I don't think we should. The level of power T1 classes get is a system error. It's not a terribly good idea to duplicate system errors.

Brickroad

2013-11-07, 05:32 PM

Fighter Bonus Feat
Punch the Universe
Prerequisite: Fighter level 12
Benefit: You may punch the universe as a standard action. Make an attack roll against AC (15 plus the Encounter's Challenge Rating). If you beat the AC you win the encounter.

This feat is an Extraordinary Special Attack.
Ah! You beat me to the punch! Literally! However, I think this is more along the lines of T1 if my understanding is correct.

You Should Have Payed the Fine
Prerequisite: Fighter level 12th
Benefit: At will, any creature or object you point your weapon at is utterly destroyed and may not be returned to life or repaired by any means you dictate at the time of use.

Special: This feat may only be used while all classes you possess levels in do not grant any extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities at any level.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 05:33 PM

No, I don't think we should. The level of power T1 classes get is a system error. It's not a terribly good idea to duplicate system errors.

It may be a system error, but it's a fun system error in some people's eyes.

Ah! You beat me to the punch! Literally! However, I think this is more along the lines of T1 if my understanding is correct.

Tier 4. It does one thing really, really well, but has no versatility.

kestrel404

2013-11-07, 05:33 PM

I'm working on expanding this into a full class with balanced/not unreasonable mechanics. But if you want to see what a Tier 1 Mundane Fighter looks like, here's the basics:

Class: Soldier
Hit Dice: d10
Skill Points: 4+int
BAB: Full
Saves: Good Fort, Will

Weapons & Armor: All Simple and Martial weapons, Light and Medium Armor, Shields that aren't tower

Basic Training (Ex): At first level, a Soldier goes through basic training. Their lowest physical ability score is increased by 4. If two or more ability scores are tied for lowest, they gain +2 to two of them instead.
Rank (Ex): Every soldier has a rank. Higher rank soldiers have soldiers under their command. A 1st level soldier is a Private. At every odd level, your rank increases. (Private->Corporal->Sergeant->Lieutenant->Captain->Major->Lieutenant Colonel->Colonel->Brigadier General->Major General). A Soldier may not take the Leadership feat.
Voice of Command (Ex): A second level Soldier knows how to take orders and begins to learn how to give them. Add your ranks above Private as a bonus to all charisma based skill checks. In addition, you may emulate the effects of the Suggestion spell, with a save DC equal to 10+1/2 soldier level + charisma modifier, except that you may make suggestions that could lead to the target being harmed, at a -2 penalty to the save DC. You may do this any number of times per day, but once a creature makes its will save it is immune to this effect for 24 hours. Anyone with higher Rank than you gets a +5 bonus to their will save, and creatures that do not have a Rank score automatically count as having the rank of Lieutenant.
Rank hath its Privilege (Ex): A 2nd level soldier may requisition basic equipment. The value of equipment and the number of times they may use this ability depends on their rank.
Cross Training (Ex): A 3rd level soldier learns that just being a warrior is not enough, they must also have other skills. Choose one new skill to become a class skill, and choose an additional skill to become a class skill whenever your rank increases.
Specialist Training (Ex): A 4th level soldier begins getting training as a specialist. Choose another class. They gain the 1st level class features of that class. If that class gets more skill points per level, the specialist gains 2 skill points. If that class gets a good reflex save, the specialist gains +2 to their base reflex save permanently. If that class gets better than a d10 hit die, the specialist gets Improved Toughness as a bonus feat. The specialist is treated as having 1 level of that class for the purposes of meeting prerequisites, but not for multiclassing. If the specialist has or later gains class levels in the chosen class, they their specialist level and actual level stack for the purpose of determining what class features they have, and for calculating other benefits based on class level (such as effective caster level).
At 8th level and every 4 levels afterwards, the specialist may choose another class, or one previously chosen, and gain all of the benefits mentioned previously.
Command Training (Ex): At 5th level, you are given specialized training at a prestegious school. Gain a bonus feat. Gain another bonus feat at 10th, 15th and 20th levels.
Command Authority (Ex): As a Sergeant, you are expected to be a leader of men. You get a squad of 5 soldiers to command. Four of them are level 1 Privates, and one is a 3rd level Corporal. Their attributes are Elite Array, unless that is better than your attributes, in which case they get they get the same base attribute scores as you, arranged as you choose. Whenever you advance in level, they do as well. For all other purposes, including replacement, treat them as Animal Companions.
Civilian Advisors: A 13th level soldier is important enough that they begin requiring support that other soldiers cannot provide, regardless of numbers. They gain a Cohort, as though they had the leadership feat, and a number of additional underlings whose total level is less than or equal to their intelligence score, none of whom may be higher than 6th level. These underlings may be fired and replaced at will, but replacing them takes 1 week per class level of the new underling.
Great Leader: A 17th level soldier is now a General, and as such all within his goverment will listen when he speaks. Once per week, the General may perform one of the following actions:
- Begin a new government project: The General is given funds and authority to perform some major task on behalf of the government. Examples of this include the construction of a new keep, hunting down an artifact believed to be within the kingdom's borders, or
- Change the law: The General brings his influence to bear and changes the law of the land. This change must be reasonable, and fit within the existing themes and overall alignment of the land (So a lawful good kingdom will not permit slavery, but might consider allowing goblinoid races to become indentured servants in exchange for eventual citizenship so long as oversight is ensured).
- To War: The General may act upon some slight from another location and get a formal declaration of war passed. If the target location is an ally or there has been a long period of peace, then instead tensions increase between the two lands such that the next use of this ability will incite war. Requires some obvious slight against the general's government, or a successful bluff check against the government's leaders - be careful, a failed bluff check may result in serious trouble.
- Misc. Other: The General can attempt to do many other things, up to GM discretion.

zlefin

2013-11-07, 05:33 PM

This reminds me of my design for an overpowered mundane; I think it only reached low tier 2 though, or high 3; depending on how you count tiers.

Ziegander, it feels to me like you're hating a little too much.

Jorm, your idea sounds cool; I look forward to seeing what it ends up as.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 05:36 PM

I'm working on expanding this into a full class with balanced/not unreasonable mechanics. But if you want to see what a Tier 1 Mundane Fighter looks like, here's the basics:

Well, I would comment on this if it were formatted in such a way that it wasn't a strain to read. :smallsmile:

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 05:39 PM

Ziegander, it feels to me like you're hating a little too much.

I'm not hating. I'm being bluntly honest. Something I feel most people need, and definitely Jormengand here. If by some act of god he does manage to design a few spell combos that incorporate "novelties" like damage rolled, critical hits, etc to shape effects like how enlarged an enlarged person gets or planar travel, then it'll still be Tier 3. Maybe Tier 2 if he manages to go exceedingly far with it.

I agree with his initial goals that magic fighters should exist with much more support, and I would be all for a supernaturally-focused warrior type that is all about overtly magical effects that doesn't rely on spellcasting. But the restrictions he's imposed on how to get there, and his goal to make it Tier 1, that's just not something that can be done. End of story.

EDIT: In fact, if anyone's hating, it's Jormengand himself. He's the one being dismissive, even rude to multiple people in the thread. And he very obviously has a hate-on for the Tome of Battle.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 05:40 PM

I'm working on expanding this into a full class with balanced/not unreasonable mechanics. But if you want to see what a Tier 1 Mundane Fighter looks like, here's the basics:
Not even slightly. It looks like a solid mundane minionmancy class, but it's not going to do any of the things that a caster can. (Unless you're getting caster cohorts, but then it's them doing the work, not you).

Brickroad

2013-11-07, 05:41 PM

(Unless you're getting caster cohorts, but then it's them doing the work, not you).Semantics!:smalltongue:

I'm not hating. I'm being bluntly honest.Semantics!:smallyuk:

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 05:45 PM

EDIT: In fact, if anyone's hating, it's Jormengand himself. He's the one being dismissive, even rude to multiple people in the thread. And he very obviously has a hate-on for the Tome of Battle.

I'm not the one who turned up just to go "This won't work! Use this thing which doesn't work instead!"

I don't hate the ToB any more than I hate the truenamer (hint: I love the truenamer). It's just that it doesn't do what it was meant to do, and I'm trying to do what it was meant to do, so it doesn't do what I'm trying to do, so I'm not using it.

ScrambledBrains

2013-11-07, 05:50 PM

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 05:51 PM

I'm not the one who turned up just to go "This won't work! Use this thing which doesn't work instead!"

I don't hate the ToB any more than I hate the truenamer (hint: I love the truenamer). It's just that it doesn't do what it was meant to do, and I'm trying to do what it was meant to do, so it doesn't do what I'm trying to do, so I'm not using it.

I don't believe anyone told you to use Tome of Battle, and I certainly didn't. We criticized your lack of clarity in what you didn't like about it. I rather enjoy ToB, but I have better things to do than to try to convince someone that they like something which they do not; I do, however, have an interest in getting people to be more precise with their dislikes, especially if they're trying to homebrew.

Anything, A.N.Y.T.H.I.N.G. that a Tier 1 can do, I can describe using this chain of combos and finishing moves. For Rope Trick, I cut a hole in the universe to put stuff in with the finishing move. Maybe I attack some[one/thing], and if I hit and they fail or forego their save, they are put in an extradimensional space for a while.

Of course, I don't necessarily have to have the same game-breaking abilities as the core cleric/wizard/druid anyway.

Rope Trick isn't used as storage (primarily) in its incredibly broken form, it's used as an extra-dimensional escape that lasts for hours.

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 05:52 PM

I'm not the one who turned up just to go "This won't work! Use this thing which doesn't work instead!"

Actually, I turned up to try and figure out what you wanted. You ignored my first post.

And then you went on to talk about why Tome of Battle doesn't do what you want, then said that something that worked literally exactly like a Tome of Battle maneuver was totally what you were looking for, then I said stop saying Tome of Battle doesn't do what you want, because it does. Because you all but said so yourself.

Later, when I realized exactly what you wanted, I told you that it won't work. And that's because it won't work. Maybe you should look up what the word hate actually means. I have none for you or your desires. Maybe a little disdain in that I don't think your plan is worthy of any effort (which is only because I know it cannot be accomplished, so why waste that effort). Maybe some pity, even. But not hate.

Angelalex242

2013-11-07, 05:55 PM

I didn't say the 12 Swords Fighter would necessarily use swords to win everything, I just said a 12 Swords fighter would in fact be able to use his 12stances to win absolutely everything.

And it's not the swords of God Mode (Shieldbreaker, Doomgiver, Mindsword) that make it happen...it's the utility swords...Coinspinner, Wayfinder, and maybe even Sightblinder...that make it possible to go Teir 1 with it.

And never mind Farslayer's 'no save, just die' effect, with the only catch being that the friends and family of the dude you just killed can return it to Sender...point first.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 06:01 PM

I didn't say the 12 Swords Fighter would necessarily use swords to win everything,

I know. I did.

The whole purpose of this entire thought exercise is to create a tier 1 character who hits things, and is tier 1 because he hits things. It is not to tell me I would be better off using such-and-such a system; it is not to ask me why I am not using a system which I don't feel fits my character concept. It is to create a new system which reads as a martial class and still manages to function in one of the top two tiers.

Your 12 swords fighter doesn't actually use his weapon that much at all. It may as well be a holy symbol or focus for all the chance he'll ever hit anyone with it. And he's still only T1 because of his ridiculous luck ability.

Rope Trick isn't used as storage (primarily) in its incredibly broken form, it's used as an extra-dimensional escape that lasts for hours.

Your finishing move does no damage and you can forego your save. Give yerself a good ol' stabbing, and you'll be in hyperspace in no time.

You ignored my first post.

...Because you all but said so yourself.

I'm sorry, I'm trying to deal with three other people telling me I'm wrong. Your call is very important to us. Please wait for a response. *Annoying tune plays in background.*

The key words being "All but." Causing an explosion and casting fireball are all but the same thing - the key difference is activation, not effect.

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 06:08 PM

Your finishing move does no damage and you can forego your save. Give yerself a good ol' stabbing, and you'll be in hyperspace in no time.

:smallconfused:

I... guess that works, but I personally feel like replicating the T1 out-of-combat abilities in this manner essentially would make your hypothetical swordsman feel exactly like a Wizard outside of battle, with a sword as their wand. "I cast Dimensional Sword for the night." Yes, there's a flavorful slashy bit, but there are flavorful descriptions of casting and components which are often skipped in non-dramatic moments at many tables.

Which, okay, yeah - you can do that. But I think in that case you'd need to focus more on the Bleach end of the spectrum and less on the Skyrim or Tales sides, as far as inspiration goes, and I'm not sure you would succeed in gaining much interest in those who did not like Tome of Battle.

Brickroad

2013-11-07, 06:09 PM

Well, I think ToB was just the precursor to 4e in general, where the mundane v. spellcaster case was resolved peacefully by giving everyone hotbars with cooldown abilities.

But we aren't talking about 4e, so why would we humor ToB?

Ah! You beat me to the punch! Literally! However, I think this is more along the lines of T1 if my understanding is correct.
Tier 4. It does one thing really, really well, but has no versatility.
I disagree. Tell me what, if anything, is the end goal of versatility and I bet you it breaks down into Build a Monument to Me, Rule the World, Destroy My Enemies. And really, the first two are pointless if you can do the third.

EDIT: Presuming you don't care about rules or laws or morals, of course.

Power. Power equals power. Crazy, huh?

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 06:13 PM

Well, I think ToB was just the precursor to 4e in general, where the mundane v. spellcaster case was resolved peacefully by giving everyone hotbars with cooldown abilities.

But we aren't talking about 4e, so why would we humor ToB?

I disagree. Tell me what, if anything, is the end goal of versatility and I bet you it breaks down into Build a Monument to Me, Rule the World, Destroy My Enemies. And really, the first two are pointless if you can do the third.

There's a list of things a T1 character should be able to do. Be a good boy and read it for me, would you?

:smallconfused:

I... guess that works, but I personally feel like replicating the T1 out-of-combat abilities in this manner essentially would make your hypothetical swordsman feel exactly like a Wizard outside of battle, with a sword as their wand. "I cast Dimensional Sword for the night." Yes, there's a flavorful slashy bit, but there are flavorful descriptions of casting and components which are often skipped in non-dramatic moments at many tables.

I personally like the idea of striking an enemy several times and finishing off by stabbing myself to disappear into thin air, but maybe that's just me. :p

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 06:16 PM

The whole purpose of this entire thought exercise is to create a tier 1 character who hits things, and is tier 1 because he hits things.

That might, technically, be possible. Hypothetically here, I know this isn't what you want, I just want to gauge the power level of something that would have similar results if not a similar feel (at all): Imagine a class with vancian spell slots that it uses to cast spells from any spell list. It learns them the same way a Wizard does and records them in a spell book. It can cast any spell it knows at any time, but only after building "momentum points" gained by hitting creatures and/or objects with weapon attacks (including unarmed strikes/natural weapons). Each time he casts a spell he must also be able to expend one momentum.

The resulting class would likely be Tier 1. It can just go pound on a door a few times to build up momentum, and it can cast a massively versatile suite of spells. So, you can probably achieve a similar power level if you can come up with hundreds of not-spells, at least dozens of which produce unique supernatural effects, and allow your class to learn a potentially unlimited number of these effects with relative ease.

The very difficult part will be to ensure that it not only reads like a martial class, but plays like one. Going around attacking walls and then charming, teleporting, and raising the dead... really doesn't seem martial to me.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 06:19 PM

I disagree. Tell me what, if anything, is the end goal of versatility and I bet you it breaks down into Build a Monument to Me, Rule the World, Destroy My Enemies. And really, the first two are pointless if you can do the third.
In this game? It boils down to "always having an effective way to contribute to the scene." I never want to be forced to sit on the sidelines because my character doesn't have a way to be useful.

Also, Jormengand... the more you talk about this, the sillier it sounds. I mean, a tier 1 without spells is never going to not be silly, but... I dunno, "I stab myself and wind up in another dimension just makes me do this little "lolwhut?" snort.

The game breaks down at two tiers of difference, if I remember correctly. In other words, you can have a character with the power to stand at a wizard's side without having to be a swordwizard himself.

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 06:22 PM

I personally like the idea of striking an enemy several times and finishing off by stabbing myself to disappear into thin air, but maybe that's just me. :p

That is actually pretty cool, I will grant - but that's not what's going to happen. You're going to have the Bag o' Rats solution pop up by the third time the party needs an extradimensional space to rest in.

:thog: funny bone man coming to get us!
:vaarsuvius: I hate to admit it, but the half-orc has a point. At this level, we cannot hope to withstand even a brief encounter with the Lich.
:miko: OOC: Okay, you still got that bag of rats?
:roy: OOC: Yeah. Glad it was good for something.
:miko: OOC: I use Dimensional Sword Gate. Slashy slashy slashy!

To rival T1, you need to be able to use these abilities out of combat and pre-emptively. Again, that is fine, unleashes in Bleach are not limited to combat by any means. But it's on a different plane than a lot of your other examples.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 06:22 PM

That might, technically, be possible. Hypothetically here, I know this isn't what you want, I just want to gauge the power level of something that would have similar results if not a similar feel (at all): Imagine a class with vancian spell slots that it uses to cast spells from any spell list. It learns them the same way a Wizard does and records them in a spell book. It can cast any spell it knows at any time, but only after building "momentum points" gained by hitting creatures and/or objects with weapon attacks (including unarmed strikes/natural weapons). Each time he casts a spell he must also be able to expend one momentum.

The resulting class would likely be Tier 1. It can just go pound on a door a few times to build up momentum, and it can cast a massively versatile suite of spells. So, you can probably achieve a similar power level if you can come up with hundreds of not-spells, at least dozens of which produce unique supernatural effects, and allow your class to learn a potentially unlimited number of these effects with relative ease.

The very difficult part will be to ensure that it not only reads like a martial class, but plays like one. Going around attacking walls and then charming, teleporting, and raising the dead... really doesn't seem martial to me.

Yeah, this is quite similar to my basic idea, using the "Not-spells" as you put it. Instead of Momentum, I'm using charge, and the "Not-spells" are the finishing moves, but their actual effect is determined by the charge-up ability.

The trouble, of course, is making 100-odd Not-spells, but we've got, what, ten people who've responded to the thread? If everyone came up with a few charge-up abilities each, we could actually potentially pull this off.

Now that is exciting.

The game breaks down at two tiers of difference, if I remember correctly. In other words, you can have a character with the power to stand at a wizard's side without having to be a swordwizard himself.

Eh, then I guess I can be a swordsorcerer instead, to borrow your terminology. :p

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 06:24 PM

The trouble, of course, is making 100-odd Not-spells, but we've got, what, ten people who've responded to the thread? If everyone came up with a few charge-up abilities each, we could actually potentially pull this off.
The trouble is using charge-up abilities out of combat without resorting to the bag-of-rats.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 06:25 PM

The trouble is using charge-up abilities out of combat without resorting to the bag-of-rats.
That is actually pretty cool, I will grant - but that's not what's going to happen. You're going to have the Bag o' Rats solution pop up by the third time the party needs an extradimensional space to rest in.

I may have some kind of caveat on what is actually eligible to provide charges, though having a way to cast out of combat might also be useful. Maybe "So long as he is neither in combat nor immediate danger, the [Class] counts as being at the maximum charge level for all charge-up abilities, except where noted in their description."

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 06:29 PM

Honestly, the trouble is making it feel and play like a fighter-type. Which we're deviating further and further and further from.

I may have some kind of caveat on what is actually eligible to provide charges, though having a way to cast out of combat might also be useful. Maybe "So long as he is neither in combat nor immediate danger, the [Class] counts as being at the maximum charge level for all charge-up abilities, except where noted in their description."

So you would grant it Wizard-like access to at-will out of combat utilities? Well, it'll be Tier 1, no question about it, but it'll be the most broken thing ever. And if you restrict what's eligible to provide charges, then you just cause it to fall further and further away from Tier 1 or Tier 2.

Brickroad

2013-11-07, 06:33 PM

There's a list of things a T1 character should be able to do. Be a good boy and read it for me, would you?Ye hath failed thy Diplomacy check.

Tier 1
Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.If "being capable of" includes forcing others to help you under threat of utter anihilation, it is Tier 1. I concede it wouldn't fit all definitions.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 06:35 PM

Ye hath failed thy Diplomacy check.

If "being capable of" includes forcing others to help you under threat of utter anihilation, it is Tier 1. I concede it wouldn't fit all definitions.

Greater people than you and I have concluded that Greater Kill Everything is T4. And it's not the point.

Honestly, the trouble is making it feel and play like a fighter-type. Which we're deviating further and further and further from.

So you would grant it Wizard-like access to at-will out of combat utilities? Well, it'll be Tier 1, no question about it, but it'll be the most broken thing ever. And if you restrict what's eligible to provide charges, then you just cause it to fall further and further away from Tier 1 or Tier 2.

The thing is, I'm keeping it like a fighter type in combat, but you're not going to get out-of-combat fighting because fighting is concept. Out-of-combat by very definition has to move out of the theme of fighting.

Hmm... much though I dislike the idea, I could put a per-day limit on each charge-up ability, or make it so that you can only do so at all once per hour. Or perhaps have it so that you have to go into combat at least once to reset the ability to do things out of it...

AstralFire

2013-11-07, 06:36 PM

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 06:43 PM

It could potentially work, if you restricted what it was getting by the rough equivalent of about a spell level or two less than the Wizard was getting. (e.g. when the Wizard is getting Gate, you're able to Control Weather, Reverse Gravity, maybe Discern Location at will.)

This is essentially the balancing principle of the Mystic Theurge: Yes, very many more spells. You don't have Spells Per Day as a practical limiting resource in many regards. On the flipside, however, you lack the raw power per single action.

Yeah, maybe. The trouble is, that runs head first into our other design goal: Tier 1. If we limit its abilities, then it's losing a tier, maybe even two.

Perhaps making it go back into combat at least once before it can do the at-will full-charge finishing move again is the way forwards?

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 06:44 PM

Hmm... much though I dislike the idea, I could put a per-day limit on each charge-up ability, or make it so that you can only do so at all once per hour. Or perhaps have it so that you have to go into combat at least once to reset the ability to do things out of it...

I had a thought. It'd be more of a Barbarian-type flavor, but the idea was that in combat, whenever you hit, or are hit by, an enemy creature with HD no less than 1/2 your HD or your HD -4 ( whichever is greater), you generate 1 Heat. You lose generated Heat at the rate of 1 per minute (or hour) during any situation in which you would ordinarily be able to Take 10 on a skill check (unless that situation is combat). Heat can be expended to "use special power," which includes things like decapitating ones enemies as well as plane shifting.

Even if I only got something like this to Tier 3 status it sounds like a fun mechanism.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 06:46 PM

I had a thought. It'd be more of a Barbarian-type flavor, but the idea was that in combat, whenever you hit, or are hit by, an enemy creature with HD no less than 1/2 your HD or your HD -4 ( whichever is greater), you generate 1 Heat. You lose generated Heat at the rate of 1 per minute (or hour) during any situation in which you would ordinarily be able to Take 10 on a skill check (unless that situation is combat). Heat can be expended to "use special power," which includes things like decapitating ones enemies as well as plane shifting.

I'm going to steal this ability and use it in the class now. :D

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 06:54 PM

I'm going to steal this ability and use it in the class now. :D

Well, there you go, everyone's happy. ;)

EDIT: Good luck, by the way.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 06:56 PM

Well, there you go, everyone's happy. ;)

EDIT: Good luck, by the way.

Happy. :D

I'll need it. :p Thanks though. It's gonna be a long ride...

Brickroad

2013-11-07, 06:58 PM

Out of combat 'fighting' would include logistics and maintenance. What strategy is to tactics.

Not exactly exciting stuff, but it ties in to mechanics like encumerance, item hitpoints, sleeping in armor, land speed (measured in miles), long distance travel, horse drawn carts, feeding, caring for, and breeding mounts, managing estates.

Food for thought.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 07:19 PM

All right, how's this for a class feature?

Energy:

A [Class] uses energy for some of her abilities. The [Class] has a maximum energy equal to her level+5, times 10, meaning that [Class]es start with 60 energy and have 250 by twentieth level. At the end of each of her rounds, she regains energy equal to her level plus her constitution and strength modifiers, up to her maximum.

Charge-up Attacks and Finishing Moves (Su):

A [Class] has the ability to use charge-up attacks and finishing moves. A charge-up attack functions like a basic attack, except that each successful hit made in serious combat* adds a charge level to you but costs an amount of energy specified in the description. Each charge level grants an effect to the [Class]'s attack or other abilities - it might add damage, slow an enemy, or add to your own speed. Once you have reached the maximum charge levels, each successive attack does not add charge levels but instead functions at the highest charge level. Using a new Charge-up attack causes you to lose the charge levels and the effects thereof on the old one.

If you do not attack for three consecutive rounds, you lose a charge level.

A finishing move has its own special effects and energy costs (with the exception of a normal attack, which functions as normal) save that it releases charge levels. Each charge level, along with its normal function when it is attained, may also have an unleash function, which takes effect when a finishing move hits. Hitting with (not just using) a finishing move causes you to lose all charge levels, and activates the unleash effect. The finishing move then goes on cooldown, preventing you from using it again within a time given in its description.

You may use full attacks and even two-weapon fighting to charge an attack, and even switch which charge-up attack you are using or switch to a finishing move (including a basic attack) during a single action, potentially allowing you to charge up a skill, finish it, charge up another and finish that one too - possibly even charging and finishing a third in the same action, albeit to limited effect.

A charge-up attack has the following format:
Name:
Minimum level:
Energy Cost:
Special:
Charge levels:
1:
2:
3:
Unleash:
1:
2:
3:

Name: The charge-up ability's name
Minimum level: You must be at least this level to use this charge-up ability.
Energy Cost: When you strike an opponent with this ability, you must pay this cost. If you cannot, you cannot use this ability any more.
Special: Any special effect of the ability, such as being (Ex) instead of (Su)
Charge levels: The effects of the charge levels when they are attained.
1: The effect of all attacks made with this charge-up ability
2: The effect of the second and subsequent attacks made with this charge-up ability
3: The effect of the third and subsequent attacks made with this charge-up ability
Unleash: The effects of using a finishing move.
1: The effects of using a finishing move at charge level one.
2: The effects of using a finishing move with exactly two charges.
3: The effects of using a finishing move at full charge.

(Note that a charge-up ability may have more than three levels. It may also be impossible to unleash below a certain charge level.)

Name:
Minimum level:
Cost:
Cooldown:
Effect:

Heat: At fifth level, the [Class] may acquire heat points by attacking and being attacked. Any damage taken or dealt during serious combat,* generates heat, unless it was extra damage from unleashing charge. The [Class] cannot have more heat than half her maximum energy

Heat may be used in place of energy to fill up charge levels, with one exception: it is a free action and no attacks are made during the proceedings. If the [Class] wished to increase a charge-up skill to charge level 4, and it cost 5 energy per attack, she would pay 20 heat as a free action. This has two uses: the first is to allow a multitude of finishing moves without having to charge (potentially causing a full attack action consisting solely of finishing moves.

The latter use for the ability is to unleash charge outside of combat. Heat lasts one hour, plus three minutes per level, after the combat where it was acquired. Thus, it is possible to unleash charge out of combat. Whichever finishing move the [class] uses for this purpose uses energy as normal.

*A combat is serious if the foes provide a significant threat to the [Class] or something for which she is fighting - that is, there must be both a notable risk of, and a notable penalty for, failure. Most combats orchestrated by the DM will be serious. Note that the acquisition of Charge Levels and Heat should not be usable to gauge an enemy's combat ability.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anything which can make this shorter and easier to understand would be helpful, as well as comments on the mechanical aspects.

Just to Browse

2013-11-07, 07:38 PM

Your charge-up and finishing moves look like spell entries, and your energy points look like power points.

My comment on the mechanical aspect is that you have not written abilities, and thus further comment is pretty much useless.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-07, 07:41 PM

I'll be honest...save for the means of acquiring points, this seems like another class that would have, in effect, a Tome of Battle or Spell style of "ability." I don't see how this doesn't end up feeling like another spell caster with a "cool new resource mechanic," which is what you wanted to avoid.

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 07:49 PM

Your charge-up and finishing moves look like spell entries, and your energy points look like power points.

Obviously, they're going to share some similarity - each one has an effect, each one requires a certain level, each one has a name. However, if we take a random spell as an example, (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Create_Water) that's about where the similarity ends. You can't charge and unleash a spell, and a finishing move has no components. You don't cast a charge-up ability, you add it as a buff to your basic attacks.

Energy does act a bit like psi points, but it's not a way to limit how much you can use something per day; it's literally to stop you spamming your high-level abilities throughout a long encounter.

I'll be honest...save for the means of acquiring points, this seems like another class that would have, in effect, a Tome of Battle or Spell style of "ability." I don't see how this doesn't end up feeling like another spell caster with a "cool new resource mechanic," which is what you wanted to avoid.

It uses its basic attacks to charge up the abilities. It's actually using its attacks for something other than delivering jumped-up touch spells. That's exactly what I wanted to have. I don't as much care what abilities you're using (save that they need to make you T1) as how you're using them, and if you need to make a modified basic attack combo to use them? Mission accomplished.

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 07:51 PM

At the end of each of her rounds, she regains energy equal to her level plus her constitution and strength modifiers, up to her maximum.

With this rule a character of this class would basically always be at full energy when out of combat, since a round is six seconds, after 1 minute, a 20th level [Class] (Con 20, Str 10) would have regained 250 Energy, and is maxed out.

This is similar to how a Tome of Battle character regains its maneuvers after a short rest (5 minutes) or how a Factotum regains its Inspiration points after a minute.

Heat: At fifth level, the [Class] may acquire heat points by attacking and being attacked. Any damage taken or dealt during serious combat,* generates heat, unless it was extra damage from unleashing charge. The [Class] cannot have more heat than half her maximum energy.

The main reason I suggested the "Heat" mechanic was to solve the problem of out-of-combat versatility in a manner that still revolved around fighting. The character would still need to fight in order to use its not-spells, but it would neither be crippled nor god when out-of-combat.

With your mechanic for recharging Energy you've obviated both the need and the point of the Heat mechanic. Essentially you're back to at-will out-of-combat powers (and actually, seemingly at-will in-combat powers too, but that's another issue).

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 07:55 PM

With this rule a character of this class would basically always be at full energy when out of combat, since a round is six seconds, after 1 minute, a 20th level [Class] (Con 20, Str 10) would have regained 250 Energy, and is maxed out.

This is similar to how a Tome of Battle character regains its maneuvers after a short rest (5 minutes) or how a Factotum regains its Inspiration points after a minute.
Yes. Also, my character has hit points. This is similar to how a wizard has hit points. This does not make my character a wizard.

Energy is to stop you spamming stuff in combat, not to limit your daily potential.

With your mechanic for recharging Energy you've obviated both the need and the point of the Heat mechanic. Essentially you're back to at-will out-of-combat powers (and actually, seemingly at-will in-combat powers too, but that's another point).

No, because you can't use energy to charge up abilities unless you are in a "Serious combat," and attacking an enemy.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 08:09 PM

Honestly, it seems redundant to have both Heat and Energy. Heck, having both Heat and charge-up abilities seems kind of redundant. You really only need one limiting mechanism, one charge-up mechanism. If you insist on trying for Tier 1, I'd suggest breaking things down into:

Techniques-- your standard combat options. Each technique has three levels; you have to use the level 1 option before you can progress to the level 2, and the level 2 before you can use level 3. To get more detailed, I'd suggest that level 1 be a mundane attack ("attack for extra damage"), level 2 be an over-the-top-mundane attack ("trip anything and ignore size modifiers"), and level 3 be supernatural ("hit the ground and make earth spikes shoot up and damage everything").
Powers-- these are your spell-like options, powered up by gaining Heat in battle. Here's where you'd add your goofy tier 1 things like plane shifting and WBL-mancy.

So you'd wind up with a fairly video game-y playstyle, I think: use big, flashy combos while your special meter fills up, then empty it to do some massive encounter-ending flourish. (With "encounter" here meaning "any problem the DM presents for you to solve")

Jormengand

2013-11-07, 08:14 PM

Ziegander

2013-11-07, 08:15 PM

Yes. Also, my character has hit points. This is similar to how a wizard has hit points. This does not make my character a wizard.

Must you make people want you to fail by continuing to be so condescending and taunting with every other post?

No, because you can't use energy to charge up abilities unless you are in a "Serious combat," and attacking an enemy.

Ah, well it was confusing. That'll happen when a class uses three different resources, that all ostensibly fuel the same mechanics, two of which are accumulated in combat, one of which is only ever reduced in combat and quickly regenerates out of combat.

What I'm saying is that using Energy, Charges, and Heat, all at once, is very clunky. And, as shown above, potentially confusing. Just use Heat. At least, that's what I'd do. Heat would be directly spent to use the special abilities, and the ones most suited to in-combat use would mostly be free action to activate and either modify an attack, produce a buff, or produce some personal range radius effect. Some would use swift/immediate actions. Maybe a few would use a standard action. Other, more out-of-combat suited abilities, would use full-round actions, or even a minute, to activate.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-11-07, 08:21 PM

Hmm... something like that might work, I guess, but the powers sound suspiciously spellcastery to me.
...yes? You're not going to get "a limited amount of magical abilities which can be used at the drop of a hat" without sounding spellcastery, but that's what you need to be T1.

Anyway, telling the [Class] that heat and energy is redundant is like telling the blood caster that blood points are redundant when you have spell slots - they're a different way of paying for the same thing and are acquired (and in the [Class]'s case, used) differently.
It's more like using both power points and spell slots for the same casting mechanic. If you have three things regulating your abilities, your class is going to be clunky at best, and utterly incoherent at worst.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-07, 11:32 PM

Anyway, telling the [Class] that heat and energy is redundant is like telling the blood caster that blood points are redundant when you have spell slots - they're a different way of paying for the same thing and are acquired (and in the [Class]'s case, used) differently.

I'd say a blood point/spell slot caster has some redundancy as well, unless the mechanics are very carefully tuned.

In general, good mechanical design is about creating the simplest implementation that accurately allows a certain idea to see actual gameplay. Having three resources that relate to a single function is not strong design. I would seriously recommend taking a step back, analyzing your mechanics with your end result in mind, and narrowing the class resources to Charge Levels and a single resource for move generation.

It uses its basic attacks to charge up the abilities. It's actually using its attacks for something other than delivering jumped-up touch spells. That's exactly what I wanted to have. I don't as much care what abilities you're using (save that they need to make you T1) as how you're using them, and if you need to make a modified basic attack combo to use them? Mission accomplished.

That may be your perception. I know to me this reads almost exactly as spell-like as Tome of Battle. Instead of "make an attack and get X effect" this is "make X attacks with X, Y, and Z effects, then make X attack with a big effect." The difference is minimal, except this version seems both more complex (multiple moving pieces in the mechanics, which means more bookkeeping), less flexible (as you're forced to either use the same technique multiple times or burn through a limited resource), and also less elegant (due to the complexity, as well as due to the inability to get off effect X reliably when it is needed...your powerful effects have a chance of arriving to late, or not at all).

Obviously, they're going to share some similarity - each one has an effect, each one requires a certain level, each one has a name. However, if we take a random spell as an example, (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Create_Water) that's about where the similarity ends. You can't charge and unleash a spell, and a finishing move has no components. You don't cast a charge-up ability, you add it as a buff to your basic attacks.

You can't reverse a spell, but you can reverse a Truename Utterance. You can't "cast" a Vestige ability. You can't "cast" a Martial Stance. Invocations have no components. Nor do Mysteries. You can't get extra effects or customization out of spells, but you can out of Psionic powers.

All of these were considered to spell-like by you, yet many of them are about as spell-like as what you've suggested here: their implementation is just a little simpler (which makes them more flexible, and generally more useful).

In the end it's your class and your creation, but I think you'll find most people who have a problem with Tome of Battle will have a similar issue with your suggested mechanics.

Energy does act a bit like psi points, but it's not a way to limit how much you can use something per day; it's literally to stop you spamming your high-level abilities throughout a long encounter.

Almost like a slightly less elegant version of Tome of Battle's refreshing mechanic...:smalltongue:

^That comment is mostly in jest, but the point is still there.

It uses its basic attacks to charge up the abilities. It's actually using its attacks for something other than delivering jumped-up touch spells. That's exactly what I wanted to have. I don't as much care what abilities you're using (save that they need to make you T1) as how you're using them, and if you need to make a modified basic attack combo to use them? Mission accomplished.

These bolded elements will keep you from being Tier 1. You have a warm-up period before reaching full power: other Tier 1s can nova from round 1 and mop you up before your abilities come online.

Secondly, many things are impossible to hit with basic attacks. If you can't hit it, you lose the bulk of your abilities. That fact alone drops you down to probably Tier 3 at best.

---------------------------------

Overall Thoughts and Opinions
With some refinement, this could be a pretty cool Tier 3 class concept: a supernatural fighter whose abilities are based on a combo mechanic like the one in (once again) Devil May Cry combined with a Limit Break style mechanic for powerful finishing moves. I actually quite like the basic premise of that, but I think you're severely burdening the idea with resource systems and the desire to hit Tier 1.

I also feel you may need to take a closer look at some of the basic tenants of good mechanical design, as you're throwing aside a very well conceived system (Tome of Battle) [yes, I understand you don't like it, and that's fine. But it is a very elegant system nonetheless] for one that accomplishes almost the same thing (albeit with a different feel...again, that's fine), yet does so in a clunkier, more complicated way that comes with a bundle of bookkeeping and a triple resource mechanic. That's a step backwards on almost all counts.

Unfortunately, I'm rather unfamiliar with your existing homebrew (if you have any...I believe you became active in this forum towards the end or even after my heyday), or I'd be better able to lend a hand. Either way, I'm happy to stick around as a resource should you find yourself in need of someone to find flaws and/or strengths in your mechanical designs. :smallsmile:

...although that makes me wonder how many of the people who frequent this forum can still vouch for my ability as a homebrew designer, critique-giver, and generally knowledgeable person (on game design and mechanical balance). It has been a while...

Just to Browse

2013-11-08, 12:00 AM

It would be a whole lot easier to vouch for your ability if you had an extended sig...

Just sayin', though.

AstralFire

2013-11-08, 12:12 AM

I require no extended signature to vouch for Djinn in Tonic. I have been gone a long time, but there are few names I missed seeing more, Homebrew-wise, than his.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136589 That's one...

Zaydos

2013-11-08, 12:31 AM

I haven't read most of his homebrew, but whenever I've seen Djinn give advice or critique it has been sagacious and useful.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-11-08, 12:53 AM

It would be a whole lot easier to vouch for your ability if you had an extended sig...

The problem is that mine is already pushing the maximum length, and I do love it so...

I require no extended signature to vouch for Djinn in Tonic. I have been gone a long time, but there are few names I missed seeing more, Homebrew-wise, than his.

I haven't read most of his homebrew, but whenever I've seen Djinn give advice or critique it has been sagacious and useful.

:smalleek: That was more a retorical statement of "man, it has been a while than a request for confirmation of my abilities!

But...well...thanks. I'm always touched that people remember me and enjoy my creations/appreciate my input. :smallredface:

That said, I don't want to derail the thread. Back to homebrew! :smallbiggrin:

Network

2013-11-08, 11:43 PM

I think I got an interesting mechanic. Basically, it goes as follow :

1- You have charges. No other resource. Your maximum amount is determined by your level. When you hit an enemy, you gain an amount of charges equal to the enemy's HD. If you deliver a fatal strike, you gain double that amount. You lose charge continuously (every round), so you need to recover them (by fighting) constantly.
2- All special abilities have a minimum amount of charges to use them, so the longer you fight, the better you are at fighting. Some special abilities require that you spend a certain amount of charges or all of your charges; however, these special abilities let you recover charges just as well as ordinary attacks (the cost of an ability is paid before the ability is used. If it is successful, you get a return on investment). ''Finishing moves'' are not different from any other special ability.
3- You get passive benefits if you have at least a specific amount of charges. For example, if you have 100 charges, you gain a +10 ft. bonus to your speed and are immune to fatigue.

This is pretty much a rip-off of the fighting mechanic of Armed With Wings: Culmination, but to my humble knowledge, this is the basic mechanic for most (if not all) fighting combo games.

The final class may not be tier 1, because the character must keep having a high amount of charges constantly. It will however fulfill all other expectations of Jorm. To hit tier 1, one could add the clause that if the character rests for 8 hours, he gains the maximum amount of charges and doesn't start losing them until he uses them for the first time in the day. That way, the character is at peak efficiency on his first fight of the day just like everyone else, is good at chaining up encounters (something rare), and doesn't have unlimited resources, either.