Can Skeletons do anything? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Toliudar

2013-11-06, 06:01 PM

Skeletons have no skill points, IIRC, but if directed to do so they can attempt any skill check that can be done untrained.

Of course, you're free to houserule away any of the more absurd possibilities (Gather Information comes to mind). But in the case of aid another craft checks, in the sense of having a second pair of hands to hold things, hand the primary skill-user objects, etc, I don't see any particular problem with this. If you have twenty individuals (skeletal or otherwise) all aiding a skill check, the DM might well rule a limit.

Jack_Simth

2013-11-06, 06:03 PM

Can skeletons (or any mindless undead) perform tasks?

I recall reading a blog/post somewhere that had player use a group of skeletons to run their ship as well as another blog where skeletons were used 'aid another' to craft things very quickly.

Can this be done?

Given that skeletons do not have an intelligence score, can they perform skill related tasks?

If so, where does it say they can?

It is poorly defined. If you look at the Skeleton Entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm), you can see "A skeleton does only what it is ordered to do. It can draw no conclusions of its own and takes no initiative. Because of this limitation, its instructions must always be simple." If you look at the Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities) section, you get similar stuff: "A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions."

What counts as 'simple' in regards to instructions is left up to the DM.

Can they row your boat for you? Under *most* DMs, this *probably* won't be an issue (it's a simple repetitive task requiring little, if any, decision making ... until you order them to turn, anyway, and even then you can probably just get away with telling them to stop turning the correct oar). Craft a greatsword? Likely not. However, what they can and cannot do is not well defined, so the person you need to check with is the DM.

prufock

2013-11-06, 06:03 PM

A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions.
It can follow your instructions. Profession (sailor) is wis-based, so int score doesn't really matter. Basic tasks have a DC of 10, so it can take 10 and succeed at basic stuff. Profession sailor is trained-only though, so it wouldn't make any money doing so, and would only be of any use in good weather. Presumably they could do any other tasks required on a ship that aren't trained-only.

Ravens_cry

2013-11-06, 06:04 PM

It can follow your instructions. Profession (sailor) is wis-based, so int score doesn't really matter. Basic tasks have a DC of 10, so it can take 10 and succeed at basic stuff. Profession sailor is trained-only though, so it wouldn't make any money doing so, and would only be of any use in good weather. Presumably they could do any other tasks required on a ship that aren't trained-only.
Yeah, but it would be a real skeleton crew.:smalltongue:

Trasilor

2013-11-06, 06:14 PM

So, if I have the skill craft (weaponsmithing) I could in theory show the skeletons how to perform one specific aspect of the construction process - like an assembly line...sweet

CyberThread

2013-11-06, 06:15 PM

Politicians can form complex sentences, so that should give you something to compare with, in what a mindless thing can do.

lunar2

2013-11-06, 06:20 PM

Politicians can form complex sentences, so that should give you something to compare with, in what a mindless thing can do.

MUST.... HAVE..... LIKE BUTTON!!

ShurikVch

2013-11-06, 06:24 PM

Feat "Graveborn Expert" allow to give to a skeleton a single rank in Str- or Dex-related skill.

Also, there are sentient skeletons from Eberron (Karnathi Skeleton), Krynn (Skeletal Warrior), Guardian Skeleton (KotDT #72), and spell Awaken Undead

Jack_Simth

2013-11-06, 06:26 PM

So, if I have the skill craft (weaponsmithing) I could in theory show the skeletons how to perform one specific aspect of the construction process - like an assembly line...sweet
As mentioned: It is not clearly specified in RAW, so up to the DM.

Ravens_cry

2013-11-06, 06:34 PM

Also, there are sentient skeletons from Eberron (Karnathi Skeleton), Krynn (Skeletal Warrior), Guardian Skeleton (KotDT #72), and spell Awaken Undead
I always loved the moral implications of Awaken Undead. Let's say someone is killed and then turned into a skeleton. Next, they cast Awaken Undead. Now, while that skeleton is technically evil for detection purposes, there is nothing stopping it from being as good a person as any. After all, it's a person now, doesn't have a need or compulsion to feed upon sentients like a vampire or ghoul, nor has it committed any act of depravity to attain this state like a lich.
It's rare but possible.
Later though, the family and friends of the former owner of that body want their buddy back.
Do you you kill this person to get someone back who is already dead?

Captnq

2013-11-06, 06:36 PM

Take away everything but the skull, spine and one arm. Install it on the top of a door. One half of the skull on one side, one half on the other. Nail it down well so it doesn't accidentally kill someone. - Automatic door opener.

Install it in a plushie, like a stuffed teddy bear. Sell it to little kids with the orders to dance a little jig when ever anyone says , "Poo Poo"

Put the legs under a cart, flintstone style. Now you have a horseless carrage.

Get a big vat of soapy water. Make the skeletons put on your clothes and shake vigorously in the water. Then they rinse in clean water, then do back flips until dry.

Take Bone. Flesh to stone. Stone Shape into gears and axles. Stone to flesh. You have a perpetual motion machine. Use it to grind flour. Raise and lower elevators. Pump water out of mines so you can mine deeper and finally reach the Balrog. Kill him for that really cool sword.

Make a chair out of ribs. Back massager.

Make a fan out of Hip Bones to keep you cool in the summer.

Oh yeah... Have them guard your home and kill pesky adventurers.

lunar2

2013-11-06, 06:38 PM

one problem. not flesh to stone/stone to flesh, since that leaves you with flesh at the end, not bone. instead flesh to stone/break enchantment.

Ravens_cry

2013-11-06, 06:43 PM

one problem. not flesh to stone/stone to flesh, since that leaves you with flesh at the end, not bone. instead flesh to stone/break enchantment.
Except you can't cast Flesh to Stone on undead since it's a Fort save that doesn't affect objects.

lunar2

2013-11-06, 06:44 PM

Except you can't cast Flesh to Stone on undead since it's a Fort save that doesn't affect objects.

buh. buh. buh. you mean i have to take all my trophy statues down before they rot? WAAH!!

Ravens_cry

2013-11-06, 06:45 PM

buh. buh. buh. you mean i have to take all my trophy statues down before they rot? WAAH!!
Nah, just Gentle Repose the dears.

Chronos

2013-11-06, 06:46 PM

Quoth prufock:

It can follow your instructions. Profession (sailor) is wis-based, so int score doesn't really matter. Basic tasks have a DC of 10, so it can take 10 and succeed at basic stuff.
Except that they have a 1 Wis and Cha, so taking 10 will only give you a check result of 5, too low for almost all tasks.

ShurikVch

2013-11-06, 06:51 PM

Except that they have a 1 Wis and Cha, so taking 10 will only give you a check result of 5, too low for almost all tasks.
Actually, it's Wis 10

Necroticplague

2013-11-06, 07:55 PM

Actually, it's Wis 10

Except that they have a 1 Wis and Cha, so taking 10 will only give you a check result of 5, too low for almost all tasks.

So really, it seems like an enforcement of common sense, since the only non-social CHA based skill is UMD: don't let the mindless undead to the talking (roll cha based skills), have them do grunt work any random idiot could do (untrained craft and profession rolls). Oddly enough, it means that skeletons have an average ability to figure out when their being lied too, or help keep others alive (heal and survival checks). Of course, even for more difficult tasks, they can simply Aid Other whoever's actually doing things.

Kudaku

2013-11-06, 08:11 PM

The skeletons on a ship you mentioned - could it be Skeleton Crew (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/skeleton-crew)?

Tanuki Tales

2013-11-06, 08:13 PM

lunar2

2013-11-06, 08:15 PM

How exactly do Undead rot and decompose anyways? Negative Energy flat kills all bacteria, fungi and microbes and Undead are immune to most effects that would cause dehydration. And doesn't Negative Energy also keep them structurally sound?

there is no RAW on undead decomposing over time. once created, a skeleton lasts until it is destroyed, or forever, whichever comes first.

Psyren

2013-11-06, 11:07 PM

Zanos

2013-11-06, 11:29 PM

I always loved the moral implications of Awaken Undead. Let's say someone is killed and then turned into a skeleton. Next, they cast Awaken Undead. Now, while that skeleton is technically evil for detection purposes, there is nothing stopping it from being as good a person as any. After all, it's a person now, doesn't have a need or compulsion to feed upon sentients like a vampire or ghoul, nor has it committed any act of depravity to attain this state like a lich.
It's rare but possible.
Later though, the family and friends of the former owner of that body want their buddy back.
Do you you kill this person to get someone back who is already dead?
I personally find it more interesting that you just used a 6th/7th level spell to create an entirely new sentient being. When you cast awaken undead you are literally making new persons.

For certain values of "person", I suppose.

Ravens_cry

2013-11-06, 11:37 PM

I personally find it more interesting that you just used a 6th/7th level spell to create an entirely new sentient being. When you cast awaken undead you are literally making new persons.

I know a spell like that, though it needs two casters and has an around nine month casting time.:smalltongue:

For certain values of "person", I suppose.
What other value of person is there? Undead or living, a person is a person, no matter what élan vital, positive or negative, runs their bodily functions.

Zanos

2013-11-06, 11:43 PM

I know a spell like that, though it needs two casters and has an around nine month casting time.:smalltongue:

It took me a lot longer than I would like to admit to catch that.

What other value of person is there? Undead or living, a person is a person, no matter what élan vital, positive or negative, runs their bodily functions.
I agree that they're people, but paladins tend to disagree rather violently when I insist that Necroville was made with free-range naturally killed humans.

The clerics of many good-aligned gods will also probably have different definitions of "person" that don't include the well-meaning residents of Necroville.

Bhaakon

2013-11-06, 11:52 PM

How exactly do Undead rot and decompose anyways? Negative Energy flat kills all bacteria, fungi and microbes and Undead are immune to most effects that would cause dehydration. And doesn't Negative Energy also keep them structurally sound?

Even without bacteria, there are still a lot of substances in the body that would cause rotting of a sort once the organs shut down. Various enzymes and acids in a body start, essentially, digesting it once the body processes keeping them in check stop functioning.

Also, joints and other moving parts (skin, muscle, etc.) would quickly begin to wear out once the body stopped producing new cells. Even if the magic and negative energy are holding the undead creature together, it could certainly look like it's falling apart.

gooddragon1

2013-11-06, 11:57 PM

Even without bacteria, there are still a lot of substances in the body that would cause rotting of a sort once the organs shut down. Various enzymes and acids in a body start, essentially, digesting it once the body processes keeping them in check stop functioning.

Also, joints and other moving parts (skin, muscle, etc.) would quickly begin to wear out once the body stopped producing new cells. Even if the magic and negative energy are holding the undead creature together, it could certainly look like it's falling apart.

What if they had the evolved undead template for the fast healing? Wouldn't that hold them together?

Also, if a creature had immunity to acid would it ever have to brush it's teeth?

Ravens_cry

2013-11-07, 12:00 AM

It took me a lot longer than I would like to admit to catch that.

You are lucky I didn't go with my first instinct and give the casting time in weeks.:smalltongue:

I agree that they're people, but paladins tend to disagree rather violently when I insist that Necroville was made with free-range naturally killed humans.

The clerics of many good-aligned gods will also probably have different definitions of "person" that don't include the well-meaning residents of Necroville.
You don't even need free range humans; you just need sculptures of humans and multiple castings of Stone to Flesh, as the spells turns sculptures into corpses. Better than free range human corpses, vegan human corpses:smallbiggrin:!

Bhaakon

2013-11-07, 12:03 AM

What if they had the evolved undead template for the fast healing? Wouldn't that hold them together?

Does fast healing prevent scaring or superficial damage? It might preserve the undead creature's structural integrity and still leave it looking like the cryptkeeper.

Also, if a creature had immunity to acid would it ever have to brush it's teeth?

I don't think acid immunity prevents halitosis.

Milo v3

2013-11-07, 12:22 AM

What if they had the evolved undead template for the fast healing? Wouldn't that hold them together?

I think undead needs to be around for years to get that template, probably decay long before that.

EDIT: Awakened Skeletons still have a charisma of 1 don't they?

Slipperychicken

2013-11-07, 12:23 AM

Install it in a plushie, like a stuffed teddy bear. Sell it to little kids with the orders to dance a little jig when ever anyone says , "Poo Poo"

Remember to command it to Take 10. A skeleton's Charisma 1 and zero skill ranks means it has a -5 to Perform (Dance), which gives it a dance check of 5 on Take 10.

Now I'm kind of wondering what a Perform (Dance) check result of -4 would look like.

Ravens_cry

2013-11-07, 12:39 AM

Remember to command it to Take 10. A skeleton's Charisma 1 and zero skill ranks means it has a -5 to Perform (Dance), which gives it a dance check of 5 on Take 10.

Now I'm kind of wondering what a Perform (Dance) check result of -4 would look like.
Why, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h03QBNVwX8Q), of course :smallamused:

Jergmo

2013-11-07, 02:09 AM

I'd like to toss in a few things.

I cannot list the exact page, but the DMG includes variant rules including altering the skill required for various skill checks - Dance could be changed to Dexterity, but it's probably more sensible that a skeleton be bad at dancing.

The book Secret College of Necromancy lists durations skeletons and zombies last based on their purpose and environment, though I... don't own it anymore (sorry).

I'd like to put forth something. There are a couple ways you could look at decay of undead: for example, negative energy killing bacteria growing on a zombie or skeleton may well feed it and keep it from decaying. Or negative energy from an animating spirit may deactivate enzymes.

Ravens_cry

2013-11-07, 02:50 AM

TuggyNE

2013-11-07, 03:08 AM

Another possibility is it is based off your charisma, since they are not preforming the dance, they are instead following your instructions by strict rote, with no personal input whatsoever. One might as well ask how to calculate the preform check of a player piano or music box.

That raises the question, though: is the mental control a necromancer exerts over mindless undead of sufficient detail to give that sort of "play back" effect? Because it seems to be just orders, given as a standard action.

ahenobarbi

2013-11-07, 03:10 AM

Ravens_cry

2013-11-07, 03:24 AM

I want to remind you that "simple" tasks include fighting, which is IMHO significantly more complex than rowing. So I'd argue skeletons could be used as cheap work force (and I like the idea. IIRC one faction in Sigil did this quite openly).
It's been discussed before on this board. My idea (beyond the vegetarian undead described earlier) was a city state that uses skeletons as a power source turning treadwheels and treadmills, and, yes, cheap labour as form of after-death taxation, with citizens getting less time Returned than residents. To become a citizen, one must show value to the city, displaying ones craft in front of the Eternal Council, a group of liches that rule the city. Becoming an Intelligent undead without approval of the city is banned, as are other forms of immortality, as they are basically tax evasion.
If you show enough worth, you will be stored to be turned into an intelligent undead in time of need, like a great warrior or mage, for instance, and if you are really, really useful, you might even be invited to join the Council.
The whole place is very Lawful Neutral at worst, though a bureaucracy has started to creep into existence to 'save the Council trouble', and black onyx has become increasingly expensive.

Sam K

2013-11-07, 04:25 AM

You are lucky I didn't go with my first instinct and give the casting time in weeks.:smalltongue:

You don't even need free range humans; you just need sculptures of humans and multiple castings of Stone to Flesh, as the spells turns sculptures into corpses. Better than free range human corpses, vegan human corpses:smallbiggrin:!

Great prank to pull on paladin murderhobos:

1. Buy statues that look like an illithid and a aboleth had a baby, that was hit by the fiendish ugly stick +5 for all of it's life.
2. Make vegan undead as described above.
3. Destroy any awakend vegan undead that are not good.
4. Repeat until you have a sizable community.
5. Use suggestion (if it works on undead, otherwise research a undead-only version of it) to suggest the proper way to greet adventurers is to shuffle towards them with your arms held in front of you, moaning "Brains... brains..."
6. Tip off paladins about a village that was destroyed by terrible brain eating monster zombies.
7. Watch murderhobo paladins fall from grace as they slaughter the good, innocent but sadly missunderstood vegan undead.

Bonus points if you monopolize access to atonement spell first. Even if you don't, the sheer trauma of falling from grace due to killing undead monsters will mess up the paladins for life. Imagine the party kill because the paladin didn't dare to join the fight for fear of falling again!

If the paladins are smart enough to use detect evil even against undead, have your vegan undead carry a large sheet of lead around at all times. Hell, you can have lead-plated statues made in step 1, it's not like they're going to die from lead poisoning!

Ravens_cry

2013-11-07, 04:32 AM

Eh, undead detect evil anyway, even the good ones. No lead sheets required. Still, what you do is pretty evil in itself, setting up a bunch of innocent creatures to be slaughtered.
No, suggestion does not work on undead, and, personally, I would say researching one that does is a non-starter as you'd have a tough time convincing me that your suggestion-but-for-undead wasn't mind affecting and hence automatically blocked by undead immunities.

Khatoblepas

2013-11-07, 04:39 AM

No, suggestion does not work on undead, and, personally, I would say researching one that does is a non-starter as you'd have a tough time convincing me that your suggestion-but-for-undead wasn't mind affecting and hence automatically blocked by undead immunities.

What, you mean like command undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm)?

Or using the Song of the Dead metamagic on the suggestion spell? There's plenty of ways to control an undead! I don't see why someone wouldn't research a "unfinished business" spell to command undead to do things.

Ravens_cry

2013-11-07, 04:49 AM

What, you mean like command undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm)?

Or using the Song of the Dead metamagic on the suggestion spell? There's plenty of ways to control an undead! I don't see why someone wouldn't research a "unfinished business" spell to command undead to do things.
Command undead intelligent undead treat you as friendly and think you are an OK guy. They only follow orders if you win a charisma check. Possible, but with a whole village of post-mortal citizenry? You are going to have quite a few that go 'Sh'ya, no way bro,' especially if you are a wizard, Harry. Not to mention it has a saving throw, and undead get good will saves from their HD.
OK, that being said it might be possible to research a special suggestion, but I'd still be leery.

Necroticplague

2013-11-07, 06:03 AM

It's been discussed before on this board. My idea (beyond the vegetarian undead described earlier) was a city state that uses skeletons as a power source turning treadwheels and treadmills, and, yes, cheap labour as form of after-death taxation, with citizens getting less time Returned than residents. To become a citizen, one must show value to the city, displaying ones craft in front of the Eternal Council, a group of liches that rule the city. Becoming an Intelligent undead without approval of the city is banned, as are other forms of immortality, as they are basically tax evasion.
If you show enough worth, you will be stored to be turned into an intelligent undead in time of need, like a great warrior or mage, for instance, and if you are really, really useful, you might even be invited to join the Council.
The whole place is very Lawful Neutral at worst, though a bureaucracy has started to creep into existence to 'save the Council trouble', and black onyx has become increasingly expensive.

I've seen a similar idea to this before, except instead of post-life labor, they saved big money on their military by having mandatory military service, starting after death.

Although both of these run into the problem that undead are a natural occurrence in the dndverse, and almost every method of death has an associated undead if you dig around enough.This is especially so during executions, which if my memory is right, have an oddly high chance of producing undead. Hang an unrepentant psychopath?Watch out, or the next night, he'll be coming back with a long, paralyzing tongue. Burn them at stake? Best make sure their still flaming bones don't come after you once the ropes burn.Poison them? Just check to make sure their shadow, angry at their weakness, doesn't try to steal it from the still-living citizens.Bleed them out? Watch out if the come back as a ghostly swarm of leeches that try and get back what they lost.

Plus, having the higher-ups be undead would have an odd effect on the political structure. On one hand, they would have a much longer-term view of things, so they may act in ways that benefit them in the very long-term while ignoring the short term.On the other hand, since older people favor the status quo more, ancient liches would probably want a near-static society.

Ravens_cry

2013-11-07, 06:10 AM

Yes, that is becoming a downside as the Liches grow older. They try to avert it, one reason they do occasionally add a new member is it helps spice things up, but boredom does tend to set in after a while.

Ravens_cry

2013-11-07, 06:43 AM

fwiw, under traditional northern European graveyard conditions, a corpse is whole enough to raise as a zombie up to 6 months after death, and as a skeleton up to 50 years after death.

[/tmi]
And in the right kind of bog (https://sites.google.com/site/moochava/genius), for thousands of years I shouldn't wonder.

CombatOwl

2013-11-07, 06:46 AM

Can skeletons (or any mindless undead) perform tasks?

By the rules, yes, as long as someone is there to instruct them. For example, a level 1 hireling commoner with Skill Focus (Profession (Basketweaving)) and four ranks in Profession (Basketweaving)...

I recall reading a blog/post somewhere that had player use a group of skeletons to run their ship as well as another blog where skeletons were used 'aid another' to craft things very quickly.

It's the oldest necromancer trick in the book. How else do you easily pay for that much black onyx?

Chronos

2013-11-07, 09:13 AM

What the heck are bacteria? Decay caused by living things? That's nonsense. Obviously decay is an effect of negative energy-- You expect me to believe that there's a living thing based on that?

And for Aid Another, remember, to aid another on a skill check, the aiding character needs to be able to hit a 10 on that same skill check, and must be trained for trained-only skills. That's not such a big deal for commoners, but it's probably relevant when you've got undead with big penalties.

Psyren

2013-11-07, 09:16 AM

Bacteria, or at least pathogens, are a thing in D&D considering that rotten food/dirty water can make you sick and some diseases are communicable by touch. And Death Ward won't protect you from a disease either so they can't all be caused by negative energy.

Segev

2013-11-07, 11:07 AM

Tut, tut. Bacteria et al weren't (known) things in ancient times, and so people had other explanations, like "bad air" and "evil spirits" to explain diseases and their spread.

Big Fau

2013-11-07, 11:16 AM

Psyren

2013-11-07, 11:24 AM

Commanding a Skeleton to "Assemble/Craft this item by following the instructions on this paper" is certainly within the realm of acceptable commands, but I wouldn't allow the Skeleton to craft anything more complicated than an IKEA product.

You could even model this in-game. I would say that assembling just about anything, if you had detailed and easy-to-follow IKEA-level instructions for doing it, would be a DC 10 or less task.

Deophaun

2013-11-07, 11:28 AM

Except you can't cast Flesh to Stone on undead since it's a Fort save that doesn't affect objects.
That's what spark of life is for.

Big Fau

2013-11-07, 11:28 AM

You could even model this in-game. I would say that assembling just about anything, if you had detailed and easy-to-follow IKEA-level instructions for doing it, would be a DC 10 or less task.

I'd say it would take a Craft (Instruction Manual) check with a DC of 12 to make one. However Skeletons are not capable of applying for car insurance.

Edit: Of course, the manual would have to be written by the Undead's creator due to the way their language skills work.