Issues with CR

[Jgosse]

so I recently started running a game in 3.5 and while I normally prefer not to have parties quite this large I now have seven players. the party is 3rd level with high ability arrays.

[24 point system meaning that everyone starts with 10 points and has 24 points to add where they like but only 1 score above 16 without modifiers. Unless they take off 2 points from the 24.(so to get two 18s you only have a total of 22 points not 24)
10 12 14 14 16 18
10 12 12 16 16 18
10 10 14 16 16 18
10 12 12 12 18 18

And if someone wants to they can lower scores as low as 8
8 10 16 16 16 18]

What would be appropriate CR to throw at them. I am thinking CR 6 would be about right.

[montoya]

See how 6 works. With 7 people it can become a powerhouse group.

[Stux]

Eh, going straight off CR particularly a few levels higher than the party has the potential to be dangerous. Also stats don't mean nearly as much as class and other optimisation. Throwing a couple more level 3 fighters in to the mix isn't going to help the party much against a level 7 wizard (which may be CR 6) for example. Do you know what classes to expect and what kind of optimisation level?

[Jgosse]

also I am looking at having them fight a sick young adult dragon.
I reduced the size to start and halved it's natural armor and decreased breath weapon damage but I bumped up its caster level to 3.
Str 11 dex 10 con 13 int 14 wis 14 cha 14.
BAB 16 grapple 16 Permanently slowed.
HP 120 AC 16 Saves fort 11 Reflex 10 Will 11
Feats
Power Attack
Weapon Focus Tail
cleave
Craft wonders Item
Improved natural Attack Tail
Weapon Spec Tail.

What kind of CR would this be

[Jgosse]

Eh, going straight off CR particularly a few levels higher than the party has the potential to be dangerous. Also stats don't mean nearly as much as class and other optimisation. Throwing a couple more level 3 fighters in to the mix isn't going to help the party much against a level 7 wizard (which may be CR 6) for example. Do you know what classes to expect and what kind of optimisation level?

I have a Human Fighter , a Goliath Favored Soul, a lesser Azzimar Druid, an Elf rogue, Dwarf Monk, human warlock/sorcerer , and a Half elf Scout Bard.

[TuggyNE]

so I recently started running a game in 3.5 and while I normally prefer not to have parties quite this large I now have seven players. the party is 3rd level with high ability arrays.

[24 point system meaning that everyone starts with 10 points and has 24 points to add where they like but only 1 score above 16 without modifiers. Unless they take off 2 points from the 24.(so to get two 18s you only have a total of 22 points not 24)
10 12 14 14 16 18
10 12 12 16 16 18
10 10 14 16 16 18
10 12 12 12 18 18

And if someone wants to they can lower scores as low as 8
8 10 16 16 16 18]

What would be appropriate CR to throw at them. I am thinking CR 6 would be about right.

EL 5 is about right. However, I'd suggest making most encounters with more than one enemy, preferably at least four, to even out the RNG's effects and make it less swingy.

[Jgosse]

EL 5 is about right. However, I'd suggest making most encounters with more than one enemy, preferably at least four, to even out the RNG's effects and make it less swingy.

I tried that with the first encounter 10 1st level human warriors. and a Squad Captain. who was a Warrior/expert CL 4. that should of been a good match but It almost ended badly. I happened to have the monk's Teacher near by to save them.

[TuggyNE]

I tried that with the first encounter 10 1st level human warriors. and a Squad Captain. who was a Warrior/expert CL 4. that should of been a good match but It almost ended badly. I happened to have the monk's Teacher near by to save them.

That's an EL 8 encounter for an APL 4.6 party, so I'm not surprised. Maybe check the Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) first?

[Sir Chuckles]

I use this (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/fiend_factory/elc/encounter_calculator.htm) encounter calculator. Ever so slight difference in gains, but it's a bit more convenient to use.

Now, when you say Warrior/Expert CL4, what do you mean? Warrior 2/ Expert 2?

[Chronos]

The whole CR system is based on approximations, and with that many PCs, some of those approximations start breaking down pretty badly. The net result is that you can't just rely on CR any more, and have to figure things out on a case-by-case basis.

[Jgosse]

The whole CR system is based on approximations, and with that many PCs, some of those approximations start breaking down pretty badly. The net result is that you can't just rely on CR any more, and have to figure things out on a case-by-case basis.
Yeah I was worried about that. I like a party of six Because even if 1 or 2 can't make it we still have enough to play. this time around I had 2/3 roommates plus some friends but the third roommate could not play. 2 weeks in he gets a new work scheduled and I felt bad that every one else was playing.There was no way I was going to be that kind of Aasimar.


I use this (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/fiend_factory/elc/encounter_calculator.htm) encounter calculator. Ever so slight difference in gains, but it's a bit more convenient to use.

Now, when you say Warrior/Expert CL4, what do you mean? Warrior 2/ Expert 2?
yes I do in dead I counted him as a cr2 as expert is not a combat class . I will probably use both calculators just 2 be careful but I will also have to account for their buffed stats.



That's an EL 8 encounter for an APL 4.6 party, so I'm not surprised. Maybe check the Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) first? I must have done my math wrong. I thought it was something like 1/1 2/2 4/3 8/4 2+2/4 and two cr 4s is a cr5 . I still think they would of been fine if the party had worked together.

[TuggyNE]

I still think they would of been fine if the party had worked together.

Well, probably so, but it would have been difficult and risky, like a boss fight, and there'd be a fairly significant chance of at least one character going down.