Assistance with multiplication and Wizard's Customer Service

[Pinkcrusade]

Hello, everybody!

So, a fellow player and I were discussing Leap Attack: he was of the contention that a two-handed Leap Attack was equivalent to a 1:3 ratio (as that is what it states in CA), but I was under the impression that the multiplication rule is different as it is a return, not just flat adding -- I was also informed that the Wizards Customer Service has stated that the third sentence ('this is a 1:3, have fun with a two-handed weapon') was supposed to be removed.

I would love any input in this matter. Thanks a lot!

[Keneth]

It's 1:2 for one-handed, and 1:4 for two-handed. That's RAW as far as I know.

[Karnith]

It's 1:2 for one-handed, and 1:4 for two-handed. That's RAW as far as I know.
Nnnnot quite. That's probably what the intention is, though. To borrow from myself in a previous thread:

Leap Attack, per the mothership: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=3)

Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over.
And the errata: (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.
So, all together, Leap Attack now looks like:

Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over.
Note that CustServ has consistently stated in the past that the errata was meant to replace the second and third sentences of the feat, not just the second. This would indeed put two-handed PA returns at 1:4.

[Keneth]

It doesn't matter whether the third sentence is removed or not. :smallconfused:

1x2x3 = x4
1x2+100% = x4

[Karnith]

That is not my reading of it (which is that it replaces the standard 1:2 PA returns from using a two-handed weapon with 1:3 returns; there's also the double-application reading that would get you 1:6 returns), but as a DM I ignore the third sentence anyway, so it's not a huge deal.

[Keneth]

I suppose you could read it like that, but the "instead" part refers to the previous sentence, not the Power Attack multiplier.

[Lilapop]

I think the more important part is rule 0, or: "what would a sane DM do?"

Looking at basic Power Attack, its 1:1 for S&B, 1:(1+1) for OTWF, sneak attacks for normal TWF, and 1:2 for THF. Turning these relations into variable stuff, you arrive at 1:(y+y) for OTWF and 1:2y for THF. Which matches the Frenzied Zerker's Imp/Sup PA, and a 1:2/1:4 reading of Leap Attack.

How Imp/Sup PA stacks with Leap Attack is another matter...

[Crake]

Leap attack with two handed weapons does 1:3. When you consider that the "normal" bonus damage for power attack is 1:1, then you consider that two handed weapon increases this to 1:2, adding +100% of the normal (1:1), you get 1:3. Math is hard :smalltongue:

[Keneth]

When you consider that the "normal" bonus damage for power attack is 1:1, then you consider that two handed weapon increases this to 1:2

Indeed, the "normal" bonus damage for two-handed weapons is 1:2. Increase that by +100% and you get 1:4. Look at the wording on supreme power attack. Math is easy. :smalltongue:

[Andezzar]

Exactly and without removing the third sentence trippling the normal 1:2 exchange rate is 1:6.

This discussion comes up every few months. I think is should be stickied.

[Keneth]

Why would it be 1:6? Either you use percentages or you use multipliers. We have clear stacking rules for multipliers in D&D, which dictate that you always modify the base value. Unless you're trying to argue that the base value is somehow lost between Power Attack and Leap Attack even though it's the same action and the same damage bonus. Admittedly the wording could be better, but x2 (twice) and x3 (triple) is always gonna be x4. A flat percentage bonus on the other hand modifies the full value, so you get x4 either way.

[Andezzar]

There is no stacking because there is only one multiplication / addition of 100%. Power attacking with a two-handed weapon does not double the damage you would get from a one-handed weapon, it gives you a different exchange rate.
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.
With leap attack you get the first multiplication (x3) or a flat addition of 100% of the extra damage, depending on whether you remove the third sentence or not.

Improved/Superior Power Attack does not multiply either as per the errata. It adds +50%/+100% of the used exchange rate(1:1 or 1:2 for two-handed attacks).

Even critical hits, the valorous weapon ability or a mounted charge is not subject to weird D&D math, because they don't multiply the extra damage from Power Attack, but all of the weapon damage. So that number is multiplied the first time. Only if at least two of the above multipliers happen to an attack do you start using weird math.