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View Full Version : Yeah, it's about time here too [Rogue capstone]



Proven_Paradox
2007-01-08, 06:59 AM
Okay, so we've got a discussion going on about adding a 20th level feature for paladins in another thread. Now let's talk a little about the other core class that lacks any reason at all to go to 20th level: rogue.

As with the other thread, let's just brainstorm for now. I really like the rogue class as written, with this one exception, so I don't think we should think about re-structuring the class as we eventually did for the paladin.

Lemme start with a suggestion...

Unseen, Unheard (Ex):
At 20th level, a rogue has spent so much time perfecting thier stealth that it now comes naturally to them. S/he gainst hide in plain sight as the shadowdancer feature of the same name. In addition, s/he may now run at full speed without any penalty to move silently checks. Lastly, they gain a +10 unnamed bonus to hide and move silently checks.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 01:35 PM
And what of rogues that don't use H/MS?

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-08, 01:42 PM
...There are rogues that don't use hide and move silently? /semi-sarcasm

Perhaps we could make the capstone like one of the special abilities they already get at lower level, except on steroids. So, for those rogues that are all about diplomacy and such, perhaps a similar ability for them that includes a major boost to diplomacy and sense motive. Disable Divice and Open Lock for the dungeon delver types.

Arbitrarity
2007-01-08, 04:49 PM
^^ agreed.

Ok, so that, or epic skill focus in two skills (of choice), orr... +2 to dex and int, with retroactive skill point gain?

Any other ideas?

Matthew
2007-01-08, 06:15 PM
Use Sneak Attack at will? [i.e. Rogue 20 always denies their opponent their Dexterity Bonus or always Flanks them?]

Iituem
2007-01-08, 06:25 PM
That'd be dangerous. Hmm. Ooh.

Pick just one of the following feats at 20th level only (not available in Epic).

Clockwork Strike - Your understanding of the workings of mechanics has advanced to the point where you can disable even very advanced devices. Apply your sneak attack damage to constructs only (in addition to normal targets subject to critical hits).

Cadaver Cutthroat - You have a sufficiently advanced experience with arcane horrors and body parts to be able to strike corpses to enable them to fall apart more easily. Apply your sneak attack damage to undead only (in addition to normal targets subject to critical hits).

Elemental Assassin - Your time spent facing off against the foes of the Inner Planes has not been wasted. You can now detect and assault the weak points of the dezidens of those planes. Apply your sneak attack damage to elementals only (in addition to normal targets subject to critical hits).

Tree Surgeon - Plants have anatomies too. Knowing where to hit them can be that much more useful when you are up against a treant or some shambling mounds. Apply your sneak attack damage to plants only (in addition to normal targets subject to critical hits).

Fax Celestis
2007-01-08, 06:35 PM
NICE. Those spell victory in a variety of ways, some of which don't start with v or end with y.

Glooble Glistencrist
2007-01-08, 06:47 PM
At will would be ridiculous, but I think some sort of spontaneous sneak attack ability would work well. That or some sort of really high skill bonus.

The problem is that which rogue abilities are the most powerful depends heavily on what kind of game is being run. A kick in the door style gamer is gonna want that sneak attack, but to someone in a more immersive, less combat-oriented campaign is gonna want the skill bonuses more. There are so many more different kinds of rogues than there are different kinds of Paladins.

Matthew
2007-01-08, 06:49 PM
True, but we are talking Level 20 here, the Rogue has had plenty of opportunities to max out his Skills. It's really combat where he is lacking and I'm liking Iituem's ideas.

TheOOB
2007-01-08, 06:50 PM
A capstone ability would have to be pretty darn good to make me play rogue up to 20, especially considering all of the PrCs around.

The important thing to note is that rogues are one of the most diverse classes in D&D, as mentioned above not all rogues are sneaky. Sneak Attack is about all that all rogues have in common.

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-08, 08:39 PM
There are so many rogue PrCs that anything we come up with will have to be hella powerful to make it worthwhile, as OOB said. I do like Iiteum's suggestions, but I kind of think they need to be more powerful, perhaps... Allowing a rogue to always be flanking is absurdly too much, though.

Like I said before, let's add something like the rogue's special ability. That way, they have a choice.

So, for the skill based ones, what kind of bonus would we be looking for? Would the +10 plus something unique enhancing two related skills, such as my Unseen, Unheard ability be too much? Too little?

What kind of sneak attack bonuses could we give them? Iiteum's given us a really good set to start on.

What about the option of the impromptu sneak attacks we see arcane tricksters slinging around, for those kick-in-the-door games?

Iituem
2007-01-08, 09:24 PM
You think being able to sneak attack undead isn't powerful enough? Tell that to the liche being stabbed in the back. Or the golem, with the prerequisite feat. There are base classes which allow you to sneak attack nothing -but- undead or constructs, so giving the rogue a chance to hit back at the things that taunted him the last 19 levels is a worthwhile bonus. ^_^

If you still think it isn't enough, you could (at a push) allow them to take two of those feats, but that might be -over-balanced then.

+10 would be too much for anything but a magic item or spell. The feat 'Skill Focus' only allows for a +2 bonus as is. There is little point in adding strict skill bonuses as players will already have enough bonuses through magic and gear to get past most locks, traps and obstacles by 20th level, unless you plan to take it to Epic.

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-09, 05:14 AM
Keep in mind though, a lot of these classes that give them an additional sneak-attack target also give them a whole bunch of other cool stuff. The Giant's Divine Trickster uses turning attempts to be able to sneak attack undead, yeah, but they also get full divine caster progression, hide in plain sight, and domain spontenaity with a domain that messes really well with rogue's other features. His Elemental Infiltrator class gives sneak attacks and criticals against elementals, in addition to eventual immunity to criticals, a bunch of cool spell-like abilities, immunity to poison, and a lot of other bonuses dependant on which element they choose. We've got to give them a capstone would make rogues consider passing these kind of bonuses up, if we want it to really be good for anything.

With the options you presented, I'm leaning towards choosing two of them, myself.

Triaxx
2007-01-09, 08:33 PM
I have two suggestions:

Slow Flight (Ex):
An experienced Rouge has learned to alter it's Sneak attack to cause normal damage, but in return, the Rouge can slow the enemy to half it's current speed for one round, keeping it in range of the Rouge, or his allies.

Refracted Shadows (Ex):
Some powerful Rouges have learned how to bend the shadows to their will. Upon hiding in the shadows, they seem to twist around him first enfolding him deeply in themselves, forcing a -2 penalty on spot checks to find him. Second they seem to form themselves into his likeness, as per Mirror Images. A successful spot check will negate the images, else any attack fired into the shadows merely dissipates one of the liknesses.