Wizard and a Low AC?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Does a Wizard always have to have a low AC? Is there no way for them to get a good AC I am not talking great but more then super squishy? I am talking outside of spells.

The budget is 5400 GP to start at level 5. Amaze me folks.

EDIT: Core, Dragon Mags, Complete (Arcane, Magic, etc), Player Handbook II and the like.

[Flickerdart]

You can throw some ACP-reducing stuff on a chain shirt - mithral githcraft thistledown +1 chain is pretty cheap (should be within your budget) and gives a +5 AC for no downsides.

[chaos_redefined]

Why look outside of spells? You have Greater Mage Armor, on a whisper gnome. If you had a 14 dex before racials, you now have an AC of 20 before items. If you really want, you can spend 2000 gp on a ring of protection for 21. The highest AC a CR 5 creature has is 25 (according to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172050)), with an average of 17.16.

If you think Greater Mage Armor is too high a spell slot, you can go down to 18 with regular Mage Armor. You're still above average, even without the ring of protection.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

ACP? Sorry not great on lingo I normally play pretty vanilla bards.

I am using an Elan with the flavor ruling of an elan who is 1200 years old has +3 to all mental stats but no negs to physical.

[Red Fel]

Take Duskblade. Gain better armor proficiencies and the ability to cast (Duskblade) spells without ASF.

Take Runesmith. It requires heavy armor proficiency; suck it up and take a feat. Prepare all of your spells on Runes, to avoid ASF.

Really, there are two reasons arcane casters avoid heavier armors. The first is Arcane Spell Failure, which is a big irritation. There are ways to negate that. The second is flavor - casters are usually seen to be glass cannons. Phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty AC.

Besides, when you can cast spells that render you invulnerable and freeze time while you summon a swarm of celestial beings to smite the ever-loving crap out of your enemies, why do you need to get out of your bathrobe in the morning? When you can fly and turn invisible, why should an enemy even be able to land a hit against your paper-thin pajamas?

[holywhippet]

I think he meant ACF - arcane casting failure which is what happens when most arcane spell casters try to cast while wearing armor.

On top of mage armor there is the always reliable shield spell.

[Red Fel]

He might have meant Armor Check Penalty. But that's really more a worry for Dex-based classes than caster classes, I'd think.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Any items that have Shield or Mage Armor on it that I can buy the pitiful 13 AC is just bugging me.

I am gonna stick with Conjuration Wizard for now.

[Red Fel]

Any items that have Shield or Mage Armor on it that I can buy the pitiful 13 AC is just bugging me.

I am gonna stick with Conjuration Wizard for now.

Ruuuuuuuuuunesmiiiiiiiiiiiith...

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Not a Dwarf and don't have any skill points into Stoneworking.

[holywhippet]

You can buy a force shield which is a ring that gives +2 to AC on demand. Otherwise you can custom craft items. Wands might be a good idea based on a price/performance basis.

[Zanos]

Why don't you want to use spells? That's sort of a Wizard's shtick.

Mage armor by itself only costs a level 1 spell slot and gives +4 AC for most of the encounters for a day. 17 AC isn't terrible at level 5.

[Red Fel]

Not a Dwarf and don't have any skill points into Stoneworking.

... Huh. Point.

Okay, how about checking out this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150712)? Pluto's post lists a whole bunch of ways to overcome ASF.

[Flickerdart]

ACP? Sorry not great on lingo I normally play pretty vanilla bards.

I am using an Elan with the flavor ruling of an elan who is 1200 years old has +3 to all mental stats but no negs to physical.
Armor Check Penalty - the penalty to using skills when wearing armour. If you are not proficient, it also affects a bunch of other things, so you want this number to be zero.

You want to reduce ASF to 0% as well, but many things that reduce one help with the other, and light armours generally don't have a lot to start with.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

No I plan on using the spells too, but I was wondering if there was something to be done before the spell.

[Red Fel]

It occurs to me, however; even if you had the proficiency to wear Mithral Twilight Feycraft Full Plate, and took a level of Spellsword, you still probably wouldn't have the necessary strength to carry it all.

Even if you could wear heavy armor and overcome ASF, you would need to raise your encumbrance limit. A lot. Which requires a spellcaster to - oddly enough - optimize for strength. Which is crazy (unless you play an Illumian with a rune for Strength-to-spells, or Cancer Mage cheese).

Your Elan - it's being written as the Doctor, right? (Or is this a different one?) The Doctor isn't the sort of character who engages in up-close-and-personal combat. (Except for that one Regeneration. But really, Venusian Karate?) He fights smart, tactically, with tricks and traps and maneuverability.

Just stick with your spells for protection, and have the sense to stay out of harm's way.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Well I took the Abrupt Jaunt and Mobile Spellcasting to give me Double Move Actions and a 10 foot teleport. So I should be pretty light on my feet but I wanted to be sure.

btw how much does githcraft thistledown-padded mithril chain shirt cost?

[DarkSonic1337]

I was gonna post but got swordsaged.

[Zanos]

Well I took the Abrupt Jaunt and Mobile Spellcasting to give me Double Move Actions and a 10 foot teleport. So I should be pretty light on my feet but I wanted to be sure.

btw how much does githcraft thistledown-padded mithril chain shirt cost?
A twilight mithral chain shirt +1 will costs 6100 gp. I don't know the modifiers off hand for githcraft and thistledown padding.

Be warned that it will not stack with mage armor, since it's an armor bonus.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Alright, good to know.
Edit: Does anyone have a good wizard spell book on hand, this is my first venture into Wizard.

[gorfnab]

Luminous Armor, Greater (BoED) + Shield + 5 levels of Abjurant Champion (CM) = 13 Armor bonus, 9 Shield bonus, and enemies take a -4 penalty to hit you.

Getting concealment or miss chances are great ways to avoid getting hit. Blur, Mirror Image, Displacement, Invisibility, etc...

1 level of Monk plus the feat Carmendine Monk (or Kung Fu Genius) nets Int mod to AC.

[ericgrau]

Why look outside of spells? You have Greater Mage Armor, on a whisper gnome. If you had a 14 dex before racials, you now have an AC of 20 before items. If you really want, you can spend 2000 gp on a ring of protection for 21. The highest AC a CR 5 creature has is 25 (according to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172050)), with an average of 17.16.

If you think Greater Mage Armor is too high a spell slot, you can go down to 18 with regular Mage Armor. You're still above average, even without the ring of protection.
Probably because you need to spend many rounds buffing and then it's gone before you need it or you're out of spells for other things. So buff-based answers are good for bragging matches but not so much for adventuring. Low level hour/level spells are a pretty good point though. Mage armor is quite nice. Which makes me think that a "cheap" +5 armor bonus is really an overpriced +1 by comparison. It's more useful at higher level as it scales. I'd rather pick up a +1 mithril buckler for +2 AC for now, or a +2 even.

Yeah by the time you get greater mage armor without running out of your most powerful spells you've fallen farther behind by more than 2 points of AC. Still helps.

[Flickerdart]

A twilight mithral chain shirt +1 will costs 6100 gp. I don't know the modifiers off hand for githcraft and thistledown padding.

Be warned that it will not stack with mage armor, since it's an armor bonus.
Twilight is unnecessary, and drives up the cost. +1 mithral thistledown feycraft chain shirt is 4k.

[Slayer Lord]

Well first we need to know what your banned schools are. I assume that since you're going Conjuration that you're leaning more towards field control?
Obviously, Mage Armor/Shield and Invisibility are good choices to keep from getting hit, and Summon Monster is a given. Though I've always heard it's better to forgo SM I and II; with III and VII being the real powerhouses of that spell series, though I don't play a lot of arcane casters, and am probably not the best source of advice there. Grease is always a great choice, though; easily one of the most versatile low level spells.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Where can I find that Flickerdart?

Slayer Lord I am a Conjuration Specialist and I have banned Enchantment and Evocation

[Crake]

Where exactly are you guys getting thistledown padding from? The only source I can find on it is thistledown padded armor from races of the wild, but that's an armor material that can only be applied to padded armor, not padding for chainmail or a chain shirt.

[Captnq]

Alright, good to know.
Edit: Does anyone have a good wizard spell book on hand, this is my first venture into Wizard.

Well, you could try the complete handbook on spell theory, The Spellbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg72093#msg72093).

I highly suggest reading the rules section then the metamagic section THEN checking out the spells. Being a wizard is really complicated and you should know how the spells work before you jump into the deep end of the pool.

Yes. We all "know" how spells work. Trust me. Read the rules section first.

[tyckspoon]

Where exactly are you guys getting thistledown padding from? The only source I can find on it is thistledown padded armor from races of the wild, but that's an armor material that can only be applied to padded armor, not padding for chainmail or a chain shirt.

It's the section above that, Armor Modifications. Under the Netcutter Spikes.

[Zanos]

Where exactly are you guys getting thistledown padding from? The only source I can find on it is thistledown padded armor from races of the wild, but that's an armor material that can only be applied to padded armor, not padding for chainmail or a chain shirt.


Any armor that normally incorporates an underlying
layer of quilted fabric (including chain shirts, as well as
any medium or heavy armor normally made of metal) can
substitute a thistledown suit for the normal layer of fabric.
This alteration increases the armor’s armor check penalty
by 1 (because of the added bulk) but reduces its arcane spell
failure chance by 5% (because the quilted thistledown makes
the armor less restrictive for somatic gestures).
10 characters

[olentu]

Where exactly are you guys getting thistledown padding from? The only source I can find on it is thistledown padded armor from races of the wild, but that's an armor material that can only be applied to padded armor, not padding for chainmail or a chain shirt.

They mean the Thistledown Suit armor modification.

[ericgrau]

I found these in MIC
{table]2000 | ring | Ring of the 4 winds | 4/day +2 deflection AC against any single attack
500 | Throat | Chronocharm of the grand master | 1/day +5 dodge AC against one ranged attack
2500 | armor/shield crystal | Crystal of least arrow deflection | +2 untyped AC against ranged attacks
2500 | armor/shield crystal | Crystal of lesser arrow deflection | +5 untyped AC against ranged attacks
[/table]
You could get a pretty impressive AC against ranged attacks at least. Next you need to pick a way to stay out of melee range.

[DarkSonic1337]

Feycraft is +500g. 10% less weight, -1 hardness, -5 hit points, -5% ASF. Also grants +1 bonus to bluff checks made to deceive others. Dungeon Master's Guide 2

Githcraft is +600g. -5% ASF, +1 unnamed bonus on concentration checks. Dungeon Master's Guide 2

Thistledown Suit is +250g. -5% ASF, +1 ACP. Races of the Wild

Leafweave is 740g. -5% ASF, -2 ACP, +1 Max Dex. Only used on padded, leather, studded leather and hide armor. Races of the Wild

Mithral is +4000g for medium armor. -10% ASF, +2 Max Dex, -3 ACP. Dungeon Master's Guide.

Twilight is a +1 armor/shield enhancement. -10% ASF. Book of Exalted Deeds
Check this out http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wizards%27_Handbook_by_Dictum_Mortuum_%28DnD_Optim ized_Character_Build%29/Equipment

After that, you could get an Amulet of Natural Armor+X and a Ring of Deflection+X to further increase your AC.

If you have a Cleric friend get a spiked shield with +1 DEFENDING spikes. and use the above materials/templates and the twilight enhancement to reduce it to 0% ASF. Have him cast greater magic vestment on the shield and you cast greater magic weapon on the spikes for more AC (1 AC per 4 caster levels for each spell :))

[Marlowe]

All these, plus Alter Self. Lizardfolk form gives you +5 natural armour which stacks with Mage Armour and Shield and lasts for 10 minutes per level. Troglodyte form gives +6 (but looks ugly). All of these together plus your dex bonus will put you up to AC 26. Use the Cash you're thinking about wasting on armour items and get some Pearls of Power instead.

[Zanos]

All these, plus Alter Self. Lizardfolk form gives you +5 natural armour which stacks with Mage Armour and Shield and lasts for 10 minutes per level. Troglodyte form gives +6 (but looks ugly). All of these together plus your dex bonus will put you up to AC 26. Use the Cash you're thinking about wasting on armour items and get some Pearls of Power instead.
Alter Self(Crucian) will nab you a +8 Nat Armor bonus, which is the highest I've seen.

[Captnq]

Okay...
Thaulaad Stone Armor - 2,800 gp (40% ASF)
Blended Quartz - 10,000 gp (-20% ASF)
Githcrafted - 600 gp (-5% ASF)
Thisledown suit - 250 gp(-5% ASF)
Twilight +1 ASA
Halfweight +3 ASA
Base +1 EB

So, you have:
+1 Githcrafted, Blended Quartz, [Twilight, Halfweight] Thaulaad Stone Armor with a thisledown suit.
Light Armor
AC:12 (13)
MDP: 1
ACP: -8
ASF: 0%
Move: 30/20
Weight: 90
Cost: 38,800 gp

So what you got is some wizard wearing a suit of sparkly armor that makes him look like a Starcraft Marine in full battle armor casting spells like he was wearing a robe made from Egyptian cotton.

Oh, wait. Little out of your price range, huh? Well, something to look forward to.

[Marlowe]

A rod of Lesser Metamagic (extend spell) costs 3000gp. Use it every morning to cast Mage Armour. Now this lasts for ten hours. Use the other, shorter-term buffs when actually approaching danger.

Alter Self, the Rod, the Pearls will have have much more applications than just protection as well, and will be far more useful than the same cash spent on shiny armour.

[Morphie]

You also have Bracers of Armor, but at 5th level you're better off at just casting Mage Armor. It last hours/levels, if you Extend it with a lesser Rod of Extend it will last you 10 hours, which is not that bad. This costs 3.000 and you can still use it later. Or, for just 1.000 Gp, you can buy a Pearl of Power (1st level) and cast Mage Armor twice, just spending one casting of the spell.
You also can spend some money on a Amulet of Natural Armor (+1 is 2.000), the Ring of Protection or, if you want to use armor without penalties - +1 Mithral Twilight Chain Shirt. It costs 5100 gp for a +5 bonus to AC. It has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance.

At 5th level you can be one of the guys with the higher AC in your party, just look into your spells :smallsmile:

[UmpteenthDoctor]

So the best way to get a good AC if I absolutely needed it is Mage Armor + Alter Self with a creature who has a good Natural Armor.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

BTW is it cheating if I buy loads of scrolls before hand and just roll the learning checks when I get to the table?

[ericgrau]

Alter self is only 10 min/level though, limiting it to buff rounds and dungeons. What I like to do is carry around a couple scrolls of shield so it doesn't eat into my spell slots but if I do finally get a 4th buff round some day I pop the scroll. I say "4th" because 2-3 other spells have higher priority. For alter self you put it in your spell book and don't prepare it unless you expect a dungeon or assault run or some such.

For more general use 24 hour or permanent or immediate action items or spells tend to be much better.

[DarkSonic1337]

BTW is it cheating if I buy loads of scrolls before hand and just roll the learning checks when I get to the table?

Why would it be cheating? Unless you mean buying stuff out of game (that's something you talk to your DM about).

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Well we have not started yet, so I was curious about that. I will have to ask the guy.

[nedz]

You could ignore AC and go for miss chances instead.
Spells such as Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image could offer you better protection for less investment.

Windwall or Protection from Arrows will help with Archers.

Expeditious Retreat, Fly or Dim Door will help you escape should you get caught.

Normally, when playing a caster, this is the last thing I worry about though; unless you are trying to be a gish.

Offence > Defence really.

Grab some battlefield control spells, if the enemy can't reach you they can't hit you.

Do max out Concentration for Defensive casting, no need to spend a feat on this.

[Spore]

The most classical and protective combination is:
Mage Armor
Shield
Mirror Image
Invisibility

combined with dex and Ring of Protection.

[morkendi]

Greater cloak of displacement... 50% miss chance if they get through your ac. Just so much you can do to stay out of harms way. Fly if fighting things with no range weapons etc. I always get spectral hand or reach spell so I can stay out of melee.

[Red Fel]

You could ignore AC and go for miss chances instead.
Spells such as Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image could offer you better protection for less investment.

Windwall or Protection from Arrows will help with Archers.

Expeditious Retreat, Fly or Dim Door will help you escape should you get caught.

Normally, when playing a caster, this is the last thing I worry about though; unless you are trying to be a gish.

Offence > Defence really.

Grab some battlefield control spells, if the enemy can't reach you they can't hit you.

Do max out Concentration for Defensive casting, no need to spend a feat on this.

This, this, lots of this.

AC becomes a lot less valuable as you progress. You want maneuverability, miss chance, concealment, things like that. You want the ability to negate certain combat-ending conditions, like stun, or crippling ones, like negative levels. What you don't need as much, later on, is AC. Take a look at this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851). It's got useful advice. Notice what's on it - flight, teleportation, immunity to daze, immunity to ability drain, and so forth. Notice what's not on it - AC. There's a reason for that.