Knifemaster CORE! ONLY! build. Pathfinder

[Dimcair]

Hello everybody.

This will be another boring (or maybe not?) thread about how to build an effective rogue. The trick here is that it is core only. (Pathfinder) and no multiclassing/dualclassing stuff.

"But wait Dimcair! How did you got the Knifemaster archetype then?"
Well....I dont wanna talk about it...:smalleek: (I also had to argue that I get to do sneak attacks while flanking..not only if the enemy didnt see me)

However I dont want to ask my DM for any more stuff outside of the core pf book. If you think I should still look at a feat from one of the more normal books (like APG/UM), please mention it briefly. If it seems a good Idea I might consider asking.

Without further introduction: Jack

Human Rogue 5 (Knifemaster)

Str 10
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 8
Cha 12

Max ranks in: Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Dev., Disguise, Escape artist, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, UMD, Perform (gambling, cardtricks. Background story linked to it)

Feats

Human: PBS
1: TWF
RT2: Finesse rogue
3: rapid shot ---> trying to get rid of that. At lvl 6 I should be able to switch
RT4: Combat trick: Quickdraw
5: Weapon Focus: Daggers (also planning on throwing them around)
RT6:
RT6:
7:

Suggestions until 7th level are welcome, but since we dont get xp and just lvl up if our DM says so its not necesarry to go any further for now (we dont level a lot^^)
at lvl 6 I will get 2 Rogue talents thanks to favor. class

Its the second campaign I ever played and we all are new to Pathfinder, including our DM.

Cheers

Dimcair

[Spore]

effective rogue

Hahaha, priceless.


RT6: Minor Magic (Mage Hand) or Bleeding Attack
RT6: Major Magic (Vanish) or Combat Swipe
7: Quick Draw
RT8: Familiar or Combat Trick: Combat Expertise
9: Improved Familiar (use wands with YOUR umd check) or Two Weapon Feint

Everything red is not CRB. You need quick draw to get iterative attacks with thrown daggers. The first choices gives you vanish 2/day (rounds/level invisibility), a familiar that then can be changed to a familiar with hands, being able to use wands (like that wand of vanish, restealthing you after your attacks). The second choice gives you a more mundane choice, combat swipe being a combat maneuver stealing unattended objects from your opponents (so no weapons or shields, but things like holy symbols or a key). Improved TWF gives you an offhand attack with -5. (Combat Expertise is a pre for Two Weapon Feint). Two Weapon Feint makes your first mainhand attack a feint to bring in sneaks even when not flanking.


(I also had to argue that I get to do sneak attacks while flanking..not only if the enemy didnt see me)

Seriously? Run from that DM. This is A CORE MECHANIC of the PF rogue. Your DM is kind of stubborn and the rogue will always suck when only using the CRB.

[Psyren]

Seriously? Run from that DM. This is A CORE MECHANIC of the PF rogue. Your DM is kind of stubborn and the rogue will always suck when only using the CRB.

I hate to say it, but this. If he hates rogues so much that you can't even get the stuff that is right there in their class description you're not going to have a good time.

If he has a CRB at the table though, please open it to the Rogue entry and beat him over the head with this part:


Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

Let us know if he sees reason.

[Zonugal]

Maybe dropping a skill point or two in Knowledge (Local) could be handy?

[Dimcair]

sporeegg: I know, its funny isnt it^^ (effective rogue)

I already grabbed quickdraw as he combat trick. swipe attack seems funny but the wand approach really looks interesting. I will have a look at that. just dont have any hopes this will find approval, but i look the sources up and see. if its apg or uc it might pass.

all: arguing for getting flanking sneak attack: i did that. had to take a lot of **** for "thinking by the rules" and "rules lawyering" but i argued exactly that it is the first CLASS FEATURE after armor proficiency and i got it approved (i HAD to argue, its settled already).

zonugal: lately my char was hanging around in waterdeep, i know everything there but applying knowledge local to another ace than that is kind of weird. and since i dont have to roll for my knowledge about waterdeep....


any more ideas besides the very interesting wand approach? very feat intensive and also need to get approval of the none core feats.


appriciate the help =)

[Spore]

What are your weak spots? Where do you struggle?

I had weak will saves on my rogue, had a hard time getting and staying in a flanking position without loosing full attacks and surviving combat.

I suggest things like Toughness, Step Up for your talent. For your flanking, you should check positioning attack (although only useable ONCE/day with your CH-mod), befuddling strike and the sort.

You need a minimum of approval for the following:
RT6: Bleeding Attack (extra damage that ignores DR)
RT6: Resiliency (if you go below zero, gain Rogue Level in temp. HP for 1 minute)
7: Combat Expertise (pre for TW Feint)
RT8: Offensive Defense (+ number of dice rolled for sneaks in AC for 1 round)
9: Two Weapon Feint (trading an attack for a bluff check and flat footed enemies).

[TuggyNE]

all: arguing for getting flanking sneak attack: i did that. had to take a lot of **** for "thinking by the rules" and "rules lawyering" but i argued exactly that it is the first CLASS FEATURE after armor proficiency and i got it approved (i HAD to argue, its settled already).

Yeahhhh, this is a very bad sign. Having the most fundamental combat ability of a rogue treated as "rules lawyering", as though you were trying to get ninth-level spells at first level or make Pun-Pun or something, is just not good.

[Dimcair]

Sporeegg: Besides an obvious low will save my weakness will be/is to find ways to deliver sneak attack reliably or when its urgently needed while not getting myself completely killed. 16 constitution took care of the getting killed part to some degree, now i want to find new ways to deliver sneak attack.

Some questions: vanish will only last one round, right? so i have 1 round only to get in position to full attack? still better than nothing especially if i move and then cast it somewhere in plain sight so i can just throw daggers from there. or take a 5foot step away and cast it.

the whole familiar approach takes 3 feats i would rather spend on fast stealth, offensive defensive and maybe agile maneuvers. Would you agree that i should get that wand for one of our wizzards instead? (2 wizzards, 1 fighter, 1 druid, 1 ranger, me)

lastly, improved feint or two hand feint.
two hand feint will give me an attack at -2 and another at -5 (with ITWF or high enough bab)
isnt it better just to grab improved feint instead? a -2 -5 attack is likely worse than a single attack without penalities, isnt it?


greez
dimcair

[Spuddles]

Minor note- sleight of hand covers card tricks and cheating at cards. If you want to be good at gambling, I suggest putting some points in profession: gambling.


I hate to say it, but this. If he hates rogues so much that you can't even get the stuff that is right there in their class description you're not going to have a good time.

If he has a CRB at the table though, please open it to the Rogue entry and beat him over the head with this part:



Let us know if he sees reason.

Goddamn I like your style :smallbiggrin:

[Spore]

lastly, improved feint or two hand feint.
two hand feint will give me an attack at -2 and another at -5 (with ITWF or high enough bab)
isnt it better just to grab improved feint instead? a -2 -5 attack is likely worse than a single attack without penalities, isnt it?

That's your call.