How to get +5 bab but better then paladin casting by level 6?

[CyberThread]

Just curious as am trying to squeeze a little extra power out of a triadic knight, what is a good method of getting +5 bab, but still have decent casting before level 6 or 7

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you need to be a paladin then cleric 4/ (full bab class) 1/ prestige paladin 1 might be a good option. Bab 5 and casting as a 5th level cleric. One more level of prestige paladin gets you pretty much all of the good, important pally features and lose one more level of cleric casting.

[Forrestfire]

Sadly, you need Aura of Good to get into Triadic Knight, so that limits the class to Clerics and Paladins.

Hrm. I think the strongest way to do it, at the very least, would be to go Cleric 4/Fighter or other full BAB 1/Spellsword 1/

Pick up the Magical Training feat at level 1, which lets you get Alternate Spell Source to let you qualify for Spellsword and Abjurant Champion (since you now can both arcane and divine spells with your cleric levels).

Cleric 4/Full BAB 1/Spellsword 1/Triadic Knight 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 2 gives you 17th level Cleric casting and a +19 base attack bonus. If there's a divine PrC that gives full BAB and casting for the last two levels, that works as well.

EDIT: With the Prestige Paladin pointed out to me, the build works better as a Cleric 4/Full BAB 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Triadic Knight 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer or other +1 to casting and BAB PrC.

This will net you 18th level Cleric casting and a +19 BAB.

[JaronK]

Cleric or Cloistered Cleric with DMM Persistent Spell using Persistent Divine Power for full BAB. Feel free to throw in some PrC Paladin to taste... two levels is perfect.

JaronK

[Coidzor]

Mystic Ranger has better than Paladin casting and full BAB.

[Sith_Happens]

Sadly, you need Aura of Good to get into Triadic Knight, so that limits the class to Clerics and Paladins.

As in the actual Aura class feature? Because anyone with an Exalted feat pings to Detect Good as a Cleric of their character level.

[Draz74]

Bard 4 / Warblade 2 is the first thing that comes to mind. But this build usually ends up focusing more on Warblade levels than Bard levels, so the casting ability isn't going to stay better than a Paladin.

Duskblade has much better casting than Paladin if you like direct damage, and it's got full BAB. If you're ok with starting with direct damage, but you want more flexible spellcasting later on, then I'd suggest Duskblade 3 / Paladin 2 / Crusader 1 -- one of the classic entries to the Suel Arcanamach gish class, which you'll be able to start taking levels in at Level 7.


Mystic Ranger has better than Paladin casting and full BAB.

Yeah, Mystic Ranger is pretty much the Mary Sue of classes at low levels. Dragon material though.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, Mystic Ranger is pretty much the Mary Sue of classes at low levels. Dragon material though.

Indeed, should've remembered to mention that it was from Dragon, sorry.

As far as Mary Sues go though, unless you do the Endurance loophole, you're not casting wizard spells until level 6, which delays effective wildshape until level 9 if you're combining it with the wildshape variant, so I'd say more mid-levels, since while the native casting from level one is nice, it's more Sword of the Arcane Order than the actual Ranger casting that carries it as far as I recall.

It always seemed like it'd be a lot better all around anyway if bards, pallys, and rangers had 1st level spells from level 1.

[IronFist]

Cleric or Cloistered Cleric with DMM Persistent Spell using Persistent Divine Power for full BAB. Feel free to throw in some PrC Paladin to taste... two levels is perfect.

JaronK
How do you get Divine Power at level 6?

[Mr Adventurer]

Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 2.

[Chronos]

I was going to suggest Archivist 4/full BAB 2, in case there were some paladin-only spells that you specifically wanted.

[JaronK]

How do you get Divine Power at level 6?

OP said level 6-7.

JaronK

[Gwendol]

Mystic Fire Knight sub levels + Sword of the Arcane Order feat. Drop turn undead for bonus spells, and the feat allows to prepare wizard spells in paladin spell slots. Combine with the magical training feat to get a spellbook and you can now learn and prepare any wizard.
Because of the way the feats are written your CL for these spells will be your paladin level.

[CyberThread]

I was going to suggest Archivist 4/full BAB 2, in case there were some paladin-only spells that you specifically wanted.


So that gives you an extra spell slot, makes you more MAD, and lets you use wizard spells?

[Draz74]

So that gives you an extra spell slot, makes you more MAD, and lets you use wizard spells?

It loses 2 BAB, so it might not be what you're looking for.

But you're still selling it short. Makes you more MAD, yes ... but it lets you use Druid spells, Paladin spells, Ranger spells, Adept spells, and Domain spells from any domain. (And if your DM is feeling generous, Bard spells.)

Besides the obvious goodness you can get by cherry-picking all of these spell lists, there's the subtle advantage that a lot of good Cleric spells can be found at a lower level on someone else's list. Classic example: Heal is Level 5 instead of Level 6 if you get it from the Adept list.

[CyberThread]

Huh...you get wizard not those

[Snowbluff]

2 levels of wizard or cleric would do this. First level spells, yay!

Cleric4/paladin2.


How do you get Divine Power at level 6?

Versatile spellcaster. :smalltongue:

[JaronK]

Huh...you get wizard not those

Archivists get all divine spells as class spells. It's pretty hard (but not impossible) for them to get Wizard spells.

JaronK

[Forrestfire]

Versatile spellcaster. :smalltongue:

Ohey, that does work. That's hilarious, it never occurred to me that clerics count as spontaneous casters XD

[Snowbluff]

Ohey, that does work. That's hilarious, it never occurred to me that clerics count as spontaneous casters XD

Yeah, it's crazy, right? Suddenly favored soul looks even worse. XD

Even when you're not cheesing it, this feat is just really good. :smallsmile:

[CyberThread]

But.... I was asking about the arcane order mystic fire build....

[Snowbluff]

But.... I was asking about the arcane order mystic fire build....

SotAO: get wizard spells in your paladin/ranger slots.

Champions of Valor. It's really simple. Um... okay, here's Dictum Mortuum on the matter (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html)

[Gwendol]

Didn't I give you just that?

[CyberThread]

I know someone answered dealing with adopts and druids

[Kelb_Panthera]

The reason SotAO is worth a little madness is because the wizard spell list is just that damn good. I disagree with the suggestion to drop turning for extra slots though.

[CyberThread]

Ty kelp :-P

[Draz74]

I know someone answered dealing with adopts and druids

I think you quoted the wrong thing.

When you talked about wizard casting, you had just Quoted the suggestion to use an Archivist. I therefore assumed you were talking about the Archivist build.

The Archivist is the one who can access Druid and Adept spells.

If you were asking a question about Sword of the Arcane Order, you should have quoted a post talking about Sword of the Arcane Order.

[Talya]

The reason SotAO is worth a little madness is because the wizard spell list is just that damn good. I disagree with the suggestion to drop turning for extra slots though.

Apart from SotAO, Mystic Ranger benefits almost more just from its ranger spell list than any wizard spells you may be able to add with SotAO. I'm not saying that SotAO is not worthwhile .. it most certainly is. But it's limited... you're a great gish, but a second rate wizard. It's the ranger spells that really shine on Mystic Ranger. With splatbook support, there are a lot of great ranger spells, and they're balanced on the normal spell progression that rangers get: a first level spell at 5, a second level spell at 8 with one extra first level spell, a third level spell at 11th with one extra second level spell, and a fourth level spell at 15th (because the ranger doesn't have 18 wisdom) with one extra first level spell.

Mystic Ranger is getting multiple first level spells at 1, second level spells at 4, third level spells at 6, and fourth level spells at 8. Not to mention a handful of fifth level spells at 10. Wizard spells you put in those slots are intended to help people beat challenges at those levels, and can occasionally fall off in usefulness as you level up. The ranger spells you're putting in your fourth level spell slots at level 8 are intended for 15th level characters to get one a day.

[Pickford]

Cleric or Cloistered Cleric with DMM Persistent Spell using Persistent Divine Power for full BAB. Feel free to throw in some PrC Paladin to taste... two levels is perfect.

JaronK


Of course that method only requires you to burn 3 feats (Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, & Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)) and have an 18 Charisma (+4 bonus so you have the minimum number of turn attempts required for DMM of PS which is a paltry 7)...

Granted this means you're basically giving up the ability to turn and a 4th level slot to mimic a good BAB progression. This seems highly inefficient, especially considering all the investment is undone by a single 3rd level dispel magic (or anything else that removes/suppresses magic).

[Gwendol]

You can take the extra turning feat to avoid having to max out CHA.

I'd go paladin or ranger.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Of course that method only requires you to burn 3 feats (Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, & Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)) and have an 18 Charisma (+4 bonus so you have the minimum number of turn attempts required for DMM of PS which is a paltry 7)...

Granted this means you're basically giving up the ability to turn and a 4th level slot to mimic a good BAB progression. This seems highly inefficient, especially considering all the investment is undone by a single 3rd level dispel magic (or anything else that removes/suppresses magic).

Normally this is covered by picking up extra turning and extend spell via the undeath and planning domains. This leaves most of a typical cleric's feats available for a fairly low opportunity cost, since domain granted powers are rarely impressive unless they're traded away for a good domain feat.

In this case, however, the requirements for the OP's PrC preclude this option. It's, unfortunately, a bad choice in this particular case.

[Pickford]

Normally this is covered by picking up extra turning and extend spell via the undeath and planning domains. This leaves most of a typical cleric's feats available for a fairly low opportunity cost, since domain granted powers are rarely impressive unless they're traded away for a good domain feat.

In this case, however, the requirements for the OP's PrC preclude this option. It's, unfortunately, a bad choice in this particular case.

The Cleric is only going to get the baseline feats, so that's 1/3/6/9/12/15/18 + 1 if human, he's already burning 3 feats, which leaves him with 4 (5 human)...if you burn another for extra turning (which won't allow you enough to use persistent spell even twice) that leaves you with a paltry 3 feats (4 if human).

And that's just to get a lousy full BAB.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Cleric is only going to get the baseline feats, so that's 1/3/6/9/12/15/18 + 1 if human, he's already burning 3 feats, which leaves him with 4 (5 human)...if you burn another for extra turning (which won't allow you enough to use persistent spell even twice) that leaves you with a paltry 3 feats (4 if human).

And that's just to get a lousy full BAB.

You process numbers almost as well as you argue.

DMM persist requires 3 feats and works best with 4; extend spell, persistent spell, divine metamagic, and (maybe) extra turning. With two of those being covered by domains, you only need two, leaving 5 on most clerics and 6 for humans.

[Pickford]

You process numbers almost as well as you argue.

DMM persist requires 3 feats and works best with 4; extend spell, persistent spell, divine metamagic, and (maybe) extra turning. With two of those being covered by domains, you only need two, leaving 5 on most clerics and 6 for humans.

So this only works for Clerics who worship no deity at all. (Neither of those domains is in a core deity's portfolio)

edit: And giving up good Domain choices for terrible ones.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So this only works for Clerics who worship no deity at all. (Neither of those domains is in a core deity's portfolio)

edit: And giving up good Domain choices for terrible ones.

It's true that no single deity offers both domains but I'd hazard a guess that there's at least one pantheon with two gods with one or the other. A cleric that venerates that pantheon, or indeed a cleric that worships no deity at all has this option. Both are common enough practices.

As for giving up good domain choices, which domains would you even cite as good choices? Like I said, barring domain feat substitutions there aren't really any domains that outweigh the benefits of DMM persist.

[Pickford]

It's true that no single deity offers both domains but I'd hazard a guess that there's at least one pantheon with two gods with one or the other. A cleric that venerates that pantheon, or indeed a cleric that worships no deity at all has this option. Both are common enough practices.

As for giving up good domain choices, which domains would you even cite as good choices? Like I said, barring domain feat substitutions there aren't really any domains that outweigh the benefits of DMM persist.

DMM persist which we've already said is being entirely wasted, I mean used, on Divine Power.

It's hard to decide, almost everything I've looked at seems better than gimping ones self to pick up Persist DMM...

For example, the magic domain, which would allow a Cleric to neuter the DMM cleric.

[Kelb_Panthera]

DMM persist which we've already said is being entirely wasted, I mean used, on Divine Power.

It's hard to decide, almost everything I've looked at seems better than gimping ones self to pick up Persist DMM...

For example, the magic domain, which would allow a Cleric to neuter the DMM cleric.

Don't forget that divine power also comes with a +6 enhancement to strength, saving our melee cleric 36000gp on a girdle of giant strength and getting that level of semi-permanent enhancement several levels earlier than normal.

Then there's the fact that extend spell is both independently useful and can be combined with persist to make a two day buff each day, meaning two essentially constant buffs.

BTW how exactly does magic domain, admittedly one of the better options, completely overwhelm the DMM trick, much less the -other cleric- that still has the rest of his spell load-out for the day?

[HeyThereImBear]

Pick a martial class that can get that +5 bab,

Then degenerate a fairy dragon until only it's sorc/druid casting at 2x HD remain, then amalgem it to your creature. Get rid of all of it's stats, HD, and Anything other than that ability.


Cheers!

[Pickford]

Don't forget that divine power also comes with a +6 enhancement to strength, saving our melee cleric 36000gp on a girdle of giant strength and getting that level of semi-permanent enhancement several levels earlier than normal.

Then there's the fact that extend spell is both independently useful and can be combined with persist to make a two day buff each day, meaning two essentially constant buffs.

BTW how exactly does magic domain, admittedly one of the better options, completely overwhelm the DMM trick, much less the -other cleric- that still has the rest of his spell load-out for the day?

An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. That precludes extending modified durations.

[Kelb_Panthera]

An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. That precludes extending modified durations.

And a persistent spell normally lasts 24 hours.

The text for extend spell says "twice as long as normal" not "twice as long as the normal, unmodified spell."

[lsfreak]

And a persistent spell normally lasts 24 hours.

The text for extend spell says "twice as long as normal" not "twice as long as the normal, unmodified spell."

To be fair, in this situation, it's something I've seen argued well and by far more people that just Pickford, though I'm not coming up with names to put with the argument (Curmudgeon might be one?).


edit: And giving up good Domain choices for terrible ones.
That's all a matter of perspective. Sometimes you want domains for their spells, sometimes for their granted powers, sometimes for the Devotion feats you turn them into. Trading poor spells for good granted powers is no more a terrible choice than choosing a few extra spells over a feat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

To be fair, in this situation, it's something I've seen argued well and by far more people that just Pickford, though I'm not coming up with names to put with the argument (Curmudgeon might be one?).

Just as many have argued the other way.

I suppose I can admit that it's a contentious point though.

Even so the rest of my previous post is valid.