3.5:so.. 8th level cleric who is underperforming.. what now?

[dehro]

Kruk, Cleric of the Traveller (from the Kingdom of Kalaman setting, think Fharlanghn with a twist)
domains of the Traveller are roughly those of Fharlanghn .. I have chosen Travel and Luck.
the chosen allignment is NG but I have been moved to pure N by the master, as consequence of gameplay.
as for the rest:
Level 8 Cleric

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 18
INT 12
WIS 19
CHA 10

Race: Dwarf
70HP
feats: divine vigor, ancestral knowledge, extend spell
AC of 21 (+1 full armor and +1 heavy shield)
his weapon of choice is a +1 heavy mace, which leaves him with a damage of a measly 1d8+4 (prior to magic buffs)

magic items are negotiable (with the DM that is) but hard to come by


I have no clue where to go to with the next level.
do I multiclass? and if so, in what? barbarian would give his offensive stats a substantial boost, but would require him to go chaotic neutral, which doesn't sit well with the character (who is a bit of a brawler, despite his puny mace) and might be shot down by the DM, who thinks that Kruk's divine path should keep to the chosen "tendency" towards good, as per background and general rules of the setting/clergy he is a part of...or risk suffering the consequences.
Any other class to multiclass into doesn't seem to add much to the character and its stats..nothing worth losing his 5th level spells over, which he'd get once levelling to 9th.
If I don't multiclass, how do I increase his offensive capabilities? increasing his AC seems pointless because we're facing monsters that make little difference between a AC of 21 and, say, one of 24...
(btw, he spends a lot of his time on the brink of death taking damages in the 20-40 hp range at each hit..which forces him to heal himself a lot and become rather ineffective altogether)...
or should I focus on the spell side of things? how do I boost whatever needs boosting?
what talents am I overlooking?
I've had a look into prestige classes, but there seems to be nothing that is tooled towards a neutral/neutral-good cleric or divinity.. nothing worth taking anyway.

Eberron source material is off limits, as is third party material.. anything else goes.

little help??

[ArcturusV]

Hmm... a better question I guess is... what are you trying to do? PrC wise there's plenty you could probably use well like Mythic Exemplar, etc.

I mean you mentioned he's a brawler. But you also mentioned healing a lot cutting your effectiveness. Which sucks and I know how that goes.

But generally with a Cleric I think if you're underperforming it's a problem of not really knowing how you want to perform and focus on that. It's mostly about spell selection though, particularly for things like "Smash face, hard" and being a brawler. Divine Might, buff spells, etc. In any case I wouldn't suggest dipping Barbarian unless you had something really specific you wanted to do with that Rage, or ACFs. Fighter maybe if you wanted to shore up on bonus feats. You might be feat starved and 2 into Fighter isn't a bad idea if you're heavily feat starved.

[Hamste]

Look into a ton of buff spells for your cleric and get divine metamagic followed by persistent spell. what your cleric need is a ton of hour-long/daylong buffs to make him a real contender in combat. Your lack of charisma oddly enough makes you worse at being a tank but you can over come it. Divine power and righteous might are the two things you want to persist but if not possible you should still definitely use them as they give good buffs.

[Krazzman]

Get into a Prestige Class.

Any. Doesn't matter. As long as it advances Spellcasting.

You should have left cleric at around level 3.

I think the early prc cleric is going
Cleric3/Church Inquisitor1/Other prestige class.

Knight of the Raven from Ravenloft or something making you more Paladin-y(in sense of smacking) might fit.

[Vaz]

Most would suggest Persist Spell, to later take Divine Metamagic.

Divine Vigor is terrible; you're spending a feat to gain nothing; you have no charisma modifier. Ask your DM if you can retrain it to Persist and then take DMM at 9th.

[Spore]

Your AC is....not very good. You should buff that. In a MAJOR way. Slap on a ring of protection, an amulet of natural armor and buff yourself BEFORE the fight with shield of faith. Bump up your shield and armor to +2. Enjoy your AC of 28.

Really, your AC is on par with my PF rogue (heck, a wizard with 12 dex, magic armor and shield has your armor class), you HAVE to fix that.

Also, you are primarily a spellcaster. Cast them fricking spells. 2-3 rounds of buffing is viable for a cleric.

[dehro]

the trouble with buff spells is that by the time I'm all buffed up to get on par with the damage output of my companions... or to have my AC fixed, the fight is half over, or worse, I'm on the brink of death already.
we rarely get more than 1-2 rounds of advantage on our foes, if at all, which makes the whole "batman up your character" kinda hard to do.
party composition is as follows,
1)bard with sucky hitpoints who buffs us with song, uses a crossbow and for reasons that are in the hand of fate, manages to always be the one to snatch that final hitpoint from the big baddy.
2) sorceress who is played by the DM more often than not (because it's his girlfriend's character and she's working on her final papers for her degree, so that's a convenient plot armor right there, lol).. she mostly deals magic damage from the rear.
3) ranger/explorer who deals buckets of ranged damage as long as she's mobile, which means she can't tank all that well.
4)gnome druid who usually morphs into a dire gorilla, a dinosaur of one or the other description or a bear.. could be the main tank, if his player wasn't a sneaky bastard who somehow always ends up at the back of the party. (to be fair, now he can morph in something big and scary, he does more tanking than before)
5)yours truly.. I've been main tank on the first levels (though we did start at 5th).. but I'm probably outclassed now as tanks go, both by my companions and definitely by the monsters' attack bonusses. also, I still only roll one dice for basic damage, when my homies (and the main baddies) roll buckets of dice every time.
however, the character does tend to be a bit impatient when his companions drag their feet... he's been known to leroy jenkins it a couple of times.
6)my barbarian accolyte NPC (she's currently missing in action, but she does deal quite some damage.. the trouble is her loyalty may ultimately go to the guy who saddled me with her and who we have found out to be the BBEG's right hand man)

anyhoo, as things look right now, it seems my role will be more on the spells/healing side of things.. provided I'm not the first to be attacked, which happens more than I'd like.

[Amphetryon]

With that party composition, I'd typically expect better recon, providing more than one or two Rounds of advantage for buffing (and, as others noted, Extend/Persistent Spell keeps buffs up for quite a while). Is there a specific plot or game-play related reason none of the casters use Divination or Summon an animal to find out what's ahead, or, at least, why the Ranger/Explorer doesn't, yanno, explore ahead?

[nedz]

Reading some handbooks may help.

This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238) one covers Clerics in general.
This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1344) one covers Cleric PrCs.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm. I'm always weirded out when people mention "Tank". Players are... not really meant to "tank" like in the MMO term. You're fragile, enemies outnumber you badly, there aren't really a lot of good options for it anyway. If you try to play up as "the Tank"... there are probably going to be issues. You want to play the Tank... but more like the term "Tank" as in "Heavily armored engine of destruction", someone who can afford to take a shot in return for slamming the enemy into the ground. Not someone who takes shots all day long.

I find it interesting you mention a 'bucket of dice'. Because typically throwing a bucket of dice isn't really the best.

I mean... think of say, a level 5 rogue who uses a short bow. They deal 1d6 damage, plus 3d6 damage. For 4-24 damage, average of about 14 damage. Downside because if they crit they only triple the damage on the 1d6.

Now compare say, a Barbarian at level 5. Great Axe for 1d12, plus likely +7 damage from Strength, plus 10 damage from Power Attack. For 18-29 average of 24, average of the Rogue's high point. And if you crit it all gets tripled so you'll be doing 54-97 damage.

So you want to look for flat modifiers over extra dice. Sounds counter intuitive at first, I know. You look at that guy throwing out 7d6 dice and go "DAAAAAAAMN!". But that's really how it goes.

[Spore]

At low levels, a cleric is a fighter with heal spells. This switches around the level you are in. You are now a primary spellcaster and in need of protection. You are the second to go into melee after casting 1-2 buffs.

Your position in the group as first melee combatant gives you to much pressure to shine as cleric. You should look into prestiges that trade melee combat for a bit spellcasting. You will hate to hurt your spell progression but it is a price to pay to survive the fights.

[dehro]

With that party composition, I'd typically expect better recon, providing more than one or two Rounds of advantage for buffing (and, as others noted, Extend/Persistent Spell keeps buffs up for quite a while). Is there a specific plot or game-play related reason none of the casters use Divination or Summon an animal to find out what's ahead, or, at least, why the Ranger/Explorer doesn't, yanno, explore ahead?

the reason is that both the druid and the ranger/explorer (especially so the latter who has a bit of a feisty character, the player, that is) who would be best suited to doing the recon, have a strong tendency to want to keep out of harms way, which means "no splitting the party", "why don't you go ahead and look" and so on.. this is especially true for the ranger, whose player has a bit of a feisty character and is adamant that she doesn't take unnecessary risks..such as..say, walk into the dark tunnel alone.
it is a bit grating on the nerves, now and then..but she's got the druid by the balls (quite literally.. the players have been engaged forever) and I'm still one of the newbies of the gaming group, so.. easier to replace than 2 of the players.. so I'm wary about pushing the issue.

when I mention buckets, it's because they do throw several dice on top of the flat out bonusses..the ranger manages to shoot off 3-5 arrows per round+bonusses.. the morphed druid tends to have 3-4 attacks per round too.. again, plus bonusses. the best I do is 2 attacks per round, currently with a +4 bonus.
druid, ranger and sorceress are quite a bit more minmaxed than my cleric... courtesy of the master and the druid being the 2 most experienced players, and because I've gone for flavour over minmaxing.

P.S. I forgot.. no psionics.

[Amphetryon]

the reason is that both the druid and the ranger/explorer (especially so the latter who has a bit of a feisty character, the player, that is) who would be best suited to doing the recon, have a strong tendency to want to keep out of harms way, which means "no splitting the party", "why don't you go ahead and look" and so on.. this is especially true for the ranger, whose player has a bit of a feisty character and is adamant that she doesn't take unnecessary risks..such as..say, walk into the dark tunnel alone.
it is a bit grating on the nerves, now and then..but she's got the druid by the balls (quite literally.. the players have been engaged forever) and I'm still one of the newbies of the gaming group, so.. easier to replace than 2 of the players.. so I'm wary about pushing the issue.

Even with that, one of them should have access to Speak with Animals and a Summon Nature's Ally spell to do the scouting with a bear, er, bare minimum of risk to the party itself. The typical justification for not doing so ("I'm saving my spells for when they're needed") fails to recognize that using spells before combat is often the best choice.

[dehro]

Even with that, one of them should have access to Speak with Animals and a Summon Nature's Ally spell to do the scouting with a bear, er, bare minimum of risk to the party itself. The typical justification for not doing so ("I'm saving my spells for when they're needed") fails to recognize that using spells before combat is often the best choice.

I know.. but that's still how they roll. boring but there's nothing to do about it. the ingame excuse being "I'm a druid, I'm not going to sacrifice my evoked animals by sending them ahead to fall in traps".. or somesuch.

[ArcturusV]

Point out to them that Summoning spells do not actually call forth any creatures but only a spiritual copy of a creature? It's a weird distinction but it actually exists in the rules. You cast Summon Nature's Ally you're not yoinking out a bear from somewhere. You're making a copy of a bear that exists somewhere, and no matter what happens to the copy of that bear, it has no impact on the bear itself.

Edit: Of course Summon X is on the Cleric list so if worse comes to worse you can bite the bullet yourself and do it.

[Spore]

I know.. but that's still how they roll. boring but there's nothing to do about it. the ingame excuse being "I'm a druid, I'm not going to sacrifice my evoked animals by sending them ahead to fall in traps".. or somesuch.

A summon is a very different thing from a real animal. A summon disperses after a very short amount of time. It is likely that summons are just a picture for an animal spirit siding with the druid in the time of need.

Also, scouting IS NOT sacrificing. A fricking cat familiar can hide good enough to scout even at mid levels. Even IF the bad guys spot it. It's a cat for christ's sake, they won't send an army after every second stray cat "because the heroes are here".

[Amphetryon]

I know.. but that's still how they roll. boring but there's nothing to do about it. the ingame excuse being "I'm a druid, I'm not going to sacrifice my evoked animals by sending them ahead to fall in traps".. or somesuch.

By that justification, they won't summon them for combat either, so they're willfully gimping themselves - and the party with them. Of course, if they are summoning Lions and Tigers and Bears (oh, my!) for combat, then the excuse to avoid summoning them for scouting rings false, and might be brought up on those grounds.

Also, what ArcturusV said.

[dehro]

I agree with all of you.. I just can't be bothered enough to get into a potential argument with them. As it is we are having fun, Yes, me too, so it's all good...even with the less than eficient dungeoneering

[El Dorado]

I would stick with cleric or find a PrC that advances your spellcasting. After slogging through eight levels, you don't want to delay 5th level spells.

What are your group's tactics at the start of an encounter? As an opening move, have you tried casting summon monster? Currently, you can summon a celestial lion (DR 5, 32 hp) which can take a hit or two. Next level, you can summon 1 to 3 of them or a sturdier celestial brown bear (DR 5, 51 hp). There's also the less party-friendly obscuring mist. Your ranged allies will complain but AC 21 isn't so bad when attackers have to deal with concealment and total concealment. It can also give you time to summon and buff.

As your 9th level feat, I would choose Power Attack. It stacks nicely with the Divine Favor spell (which jumps to a +3 bonus). You'd get more out of the feat using a two-handed weapon, but even a one-handed weapon sees a nice damage boost.

Given the dearth of magic items, I'm going to assume the bad guys you face are similarly under-equipped (or are using potions and scrolls). I would try to get a strength item (shop, search, steal, beg). Getting your strength up to 18 would make Power Attack even more valuable.

[eggynack]

Or should I focus on the spell side of things?
It's probably just this. As a cleric, you are your spells, and your spells are you, and the things you do that are not your spells are things that are less important than things that are your spells. What does your list look like right now? In the meantime, you may consider looking into the book of exalted deeds, because even a neutral cleric can cast any sanctified spell spontaneously, and that's pretty cool. As for build options, stick with cleric, or PrC out of cleric, but never touch your spell casting, because spells and you and you and spells and blah de blah.

[ArcturusV]

Well either that or pick up Craft Magical Arms and Armor. Not a terrible thing to have on a cleric. Same with things like Craft Wondrous Items.

[dehro]

Well either that or pick up Craft Magical Arms and Armor. Not a terrible thing to have on a cleric. Same with things like Craft Wondrous Items.

I TRIED suggesting that but numbers at hand, the trade off compared to what I could do with it and what is available, the DM says it's not worth it.

I'm going to stick to spells.. And boosts in that direction, I think... Which makes power attack counterproductive, I guess.

[ArcturusV]

Nah, Power Attack feeds well into Buffing. For example throw on Divine Might, that's +5/+10 that it allows you to Power Attack for while still having a decent to hit.

But I'm... confused about why craft is a no go. It... sounds like you're saying that the DM is trying to run some "Low magic" campaign? But I'm not sure why that supposedly wouldn't be worth it. I can't quite fathom it. The only way I can figure crafting being "not worth it" would be is if your DM is basically going to throw fights at you at least once every 8 hours, not letting you have time to do it.

Because, well... Crafting is really one of the most worthwhile things you can do. You turn 500 gp into 1000 gp worth of power, always a good thing to be able to do. Maybe he's worried about XP costs? But XP costs are.... not really an issue when you get experience from it. You gain the XP you spend a lot faster than you can spend it. Realistically you never really end up "falling behind".

I dunno. Hard to grasp what's going on at the table. Too far out of my personal experience I guess.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Either Quicken or Persistent Spell with Divine Metamagic should take care of your buffing issues.
If your enemies (or DM) target you first a lot you could look into the Wild Cohort feat to get a disposable blocker/tank. The same can be achieved with lesser Planar Ally if you can afford it.

From your description no one in your party uses battlefield control spells.
Those make combat a whole lot easier but are kind of rare on the cleric spell list. You can get a few through summoning but you're still limited compared to the Druid and Wizard lists.

[Mnemnosyne]

Going all the way to level 8 in straight cleric was a huge, huge mistake - there's never a reason to take more levels of Cleric than absolutely necessary that I can think of, because clerics get no class features for 19 out of their 20 levels. None, zero, zip, zilch, nada. Look at that advancement table, totally blank from 2-20.

That means that any prestige class you enter that has something in that 'special' column and advances spellcasting at every level is flat out better than Cleric.

Now, with Eberron off-limits, a couple nice classes are off the table, but there's still plenty of options. If this god you follow possibly offers the Spell domain, look into Dweomerkeeper. Otherwise, have you considered letting summons do your fighting for you? The Malconvoker can help with that. Since you're nongood now, you might consider Anima Mage - the Adaptation section suggests allowing it for any spellcaster instead of just arcane ones, so if you can get your DM to go for that it's a great class. Granted, this would be ridiculously late entry (typically you want to enter very early) but it'd still be an improvement over straight Cleric. Requires a 1-level binder dip. An adaptation of the Ruby Knight Vindicator would seriously boost your melee. Loses a couple caster levels though, one for a crusader dip and another at level 1 of the class.

As for feats, they boggle me. Ancestral Knowledge but no Knowledge Devotion to use it with? Divine Vigor? Do whatever it takes to get a psion to manifest psychic reformation on you, and swap those feats out. Or retrain them with PHB2 retraining rules. Or if all else fails, Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle them with purchased scrolls, if needed. Now, while people recommend DMM persist and DMM quicken, and those are great, no question about it, you have to make sure you actually have enough turning attempts to use them, or it's pointless. It would take Extra Turning just to get you enough turning attempts to persist one spell.

[Amphetryon]

Either Quicken or Persistent Spell with Divine Metamagic should take care of your buffing issues.
If your enemies (or DM) target you first a lot you could look into the Wild Cohort feat to get a disposable blocker/tank. The same can be achieved with lesser Planar Ally if you can afford it.

From your description no one in your party uses battlefield control spells.
Those make combat a whole lot easier but are kind of rare on the cleric spell list. You can get a few through summoning but you're still limited compared to the Druid and Wizard lists.

The OP might see about pre-FAQ/Errata (I don't remember which) Extra Spell to snag a BFC option off one of those lists; it's hard to get a read on what's kosher at this DM's table.

[dehro]

Nah, Power Attack feeds well into Buffing. For example throw on Divine Might, that's +5/+10 that it allows you to Power Attack for while still having a decent to hit.

But I'm... confused about why craft is a no go. It... sounds like you're saying that the DM is trying to run some "Low magic" campaign? But I'm not sure why that supposedly wouldn't be worth it. I can't quite fathom it. The only way I can figure crafting being "not worth it" would be is if your DM is basically going to throw fights at you at least once every 8 hours, not letting you have time to do it.

Because, well... Crafting is really one of the most worthwhile things you can do. You turn 500 gp into 1000 gp worth of power, always a good thing to be able to do. Maybe he's worried about XP costs? But XP costs are.... not really an issue when you get experience from it. You gain the XP you spend a lot faster than you can spend it. Realistically you never really end up "falling behind".

I dunno. Hard to grasp what's going on at the table. Too far out of my personal experience I guess.

xp cost in my case is a big bummer, because I'm already a level down, having died horribly in a river of molten gold/lava. I'm trying to catch up, not fall even more behind.
and there is a lack of resources/materials allround.. put simply, we're in a world that is divided in "huge landmass + outskirts, under the demonic thrall of the BBEG where everything and its brother is corrupted, including nature, the water and, AFAIK the very soil" and "tropical island plagued by dinosaurs, with limited resourcess allround"
..where we're trying to find the nearest town of refugees from the aforementioned continent.
resources for crafting would be a pain to get, if at all, at less than full cost, which makes it more effective to loot from the enemy and/or barter what we loot with what we need (where we do have some leeway in terms of what we can get..as long as we can afford it, which isn't a given..treasure is not aplenty)
plus I should invest skills in crafting which I haven't, so far (and with only 3 skills per level.. and a terrible track record on dice rolls..
all considered, odds are crafting is not going to pay off.

our enemies don't go the extra mile to target me first.. it just happens...randomly but it happens.
... uhm.. apparently summoning a planar ally costs 100xp apiece.. that does suck a little.
I am so not good at this.

I am allowed to retrain feats. I must/want to stick to the neutral/neutral good branch of magic, classes and feats.. no psionics, no eberron.. other than that most things will work.

for feats, I'm thinking either divine metamagic (and persistent spells at 12th level, or maybe sooner if I can swap out divine vigor)..
or knowledge or travel devotion, both of which work well with the character.

[dehro]

The OP might see about pre-FAQ/Errata (I don't remember which) Extra Spell to snag a BFC option off one of those lists; it's hard to get a read on what's kosher at this DM's table.

I'm sure it's English... but I don't understand :smalleek:

[ArcturusV]

Well, there's a feat in... Complete Arcane I think... which lets you add an extra spell to your spell list. Any spell. As long as it's 1 level lower than your highest level spell slot.

Which can be kind of abusive when you think of things like say, the Demonologist PrC, where your level 9 Cleric could pick up Greater Planar Ally because it's a level 4 spell on its list.

Course, he mentioned BFC, meaning "Battlefield Control". Which is typically anything from Wall of X spells, to Fog/Cloud spells, to Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, etc.

[Krazzman]

Ok, you want to get better?

Exchange your Cleric Levels with levels in a Prestige Class.
Exchange your feats for:
Travel Devotion, Power Attack and Healing Touch (use this for out of combat healing then maybe top them off with a lesser vigor).

After level 3 take any prestige class that you can get into that advances spellcasting OR gives you really big bonuses in return.

For example switch from Cleric 8 to Cleric4/Warlock1/Eldritch Disciple3. Pick up the Healing blast and Extra Turning on level 9.
Gives you Cleric casting level 6, Warlock casting level 4 (3 Invocations, a 2d6 Standard Action Blast).

Also about falling back... this won't happen.
You already get MORE XP than your team mates you could as well spend it into crafting stuff. The Problem with getting stuff might be feasible.

[Red Fel]

Seconding Mnemosyne's suggestion of a re-fluffed RKV.

First off, dipping Crusader would give you survivability. Between Crusader's delayed damage pool and the excellent combat spot-healing of Devoted Spirit maneuvers, you'd be much more able to withstand injury and recover quickly while in combat.

Second, between your buffs (consider DMM Persist if you just want to have them up and running at all times) and Maneuvers, and Crusader's Furious Counterstrike ability, your damage output will be substantial. Divine Fury also adds a +4 to attack rolls and +1d10 to damage - again, increase in output.

Third, Divine Impetus. There's a reason this class is called the Ruby Knight Win-dicator. That extra swift action is incredible. There's a lot that you can do with a swift action, including some really fun spells (Divine Retaliation, for example) and feats (Divine Armor, perhaps?) and, of course, maneuvers.

If your goal is to increase survivability, Crusader helps you. If your goal is to increase melee damage output, almost anything ToB helps you. And RKV is awesome.

[ericgrau]

the trouble with buff spells is that by the time I'm all buffed up to get on par with the damage output of my companions... or to have my AC fixed, the fight is half over, or worse, I'm on the brink of death already.
we rarely get more than 1-2 rounds of advantage on our foes, if at all, which makes the whole "batman up your character" kinda hard to do.
Exactly why buffzilla clerics tend to fail without DMM persist. Pick only one buff spell and use it only if you get a buff round. Otherwise charge in. You can also use hour/level buffs in the morning like greater magic weapon. Works on the ranger too. Magic vestment does amazing things for the druid tankiness if he isn't already mage armored. Actually rather than self-buffing even in a buffing round I'd use something like prayer to hit the whole party and enemies. Maybe even in round 1 to wait for enemies, and then doing a different buff in the buffing round. The dozen +1/-1s really add up. Which is why its the only cleric buff I'd use outside of a buff round. But the drawback is reminding everyone a dozen times and that it affects damage too.

With 4th level spells you've also just gotten access to perhaps the best tanking combo in core: imbue with spell ability + shield other. Redirect damage to the ranger and perhaps one other high hp back liner. Maybe yourself too if you switched to casting instead of melee the first couple rounds. Lesser rod of extend spell to get it up 24 hours if you can. Even if you melee round 3+ you'll probably still be ok. Basic AC items help too. You'll usually win the fight before you need to heal anyone and can wand of cure light wounds after the fight is over. But reserve a 4th level slot for CCW just in case.

Imbue with spell ability x 4 + close wounds also does redonkulous things for survival. 5 x 7.5 hp = 37.5 hp vs 26 hp for CCW = even if someone does get in trouble you can heal him without stopping at all. But it might be only 30 hp if you need one for shield other, and you don't have enough 4th level spells to get the whole party quite yet. While you're at it imbue divine favor into the druid and ranger so they get a nice self-buff for the buff round. If there is one. Otherwise they likewise should charge in right away.

EDIT: Even if you do DMM persist the party buffs and auras in spell compendium are still better than the self-only stuff.

[Amphetryon]

Well, there's a feat in... Complete Arcane I think... which lets you add an extra spell to your spell list. Any spell. As long as it's 1 level lower than your highest level spell slot.

Which can be kind of abusive when you think of things like say, the Demonologist PrC, where your level 9 Cleric could pick up Greater Planar Ally because it's a level 4 spell on its list.

Course, he mentioned BFC, meaning "Battlefield Control". Which is typically anything from Wall of X spells, to Fog/Cloud spells, to Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, etc.

Yep. There was a ruling in the FAQ or the Errata that indicated that Extra Spell was list-specific, meaning a Cleric could only use it to add another Cleric spell to his repertoire. To many in the min-max community, this ruling was head-desk worthy, as they saw it as an unnecessary nerf to a Feat that was good but not ZOMGWTFBBQ good to begin with. Consult your DM to see what Extra Spell actually does in this campaign.

[nedz]

There is a simple thing you can do which may help.

Buy Wands of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigour to free up your spell slots. These cost money but you should be able to argue that they are party items.
You can then use the spell slots to cast more offensive spells or party buffs, which will shorten fights and reduce the damage everyone takes.

[ArcturusV]

That'd seem weird for an FAQ, as the feat itself lists as an example something like "A wizard could pick this feat to gain access to a spell he'd otherwise be unable to ever cast". Suggesting that a Wizard could pick up something like a Cleric spell, or a Druid Spell, etc.

But I can see why it might have had to get errata'd just so that you didn't do something like pull early access off fixed list fast casting PrCs like the Demonologist.

[Red Fel]

There is a simple thing you can do which may help.

Buy Wands of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigour to free up your spell slots. These cost money but you should be able to argue that they are party items.
You can then use the spell slots to cast more offensive spells or party buffs, which will shorten fights and reduce the damage everyone takes.

This. Too many people see Cleric as a healbot, and that's a mistake, particularly in combat. Combat healing is hard, and often the best medicine is preventative - that is, to prevent from having to heal the damage, simply kill the monster before it can inflict the damage. Wands are a very efficient method of out-of-combat healing which frees up a Cleric's slots to bring out the big guns.

You can stop the abuse of Clerics. Please; friends don't let Clerics healbot.

[dehro]

Course, he mentioned BFC, meaning "Battlefield Control". Which is typically anything from Wall of X spells, to Fog/Cloud spells, to Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, etc.

gotcha...
mmmh. lots to think about in terms of spell selection (though I am reasonably happy with the ones I do have, despite only a few of them doing serious damage)... the fifth level spells look full of potential
so.. divine metamagic or one of the devotions..

the trouble with divine metamagic and then persistent spell is that I only have 3 turn undeads, and I would need "extra turning" too.. which however doesn't make much sense because I haven't been doing much turning at all in this campaign (which is very light on the undeads)...and if I got it only for the sake of persistent spell, my DM might object (must check with him though)

should I convince the DM that extra turning is ok.. persistent spells sounds good, but I'd still only really make it effective by the time I got to level 15

[Draz74]

Nitpick: multiclassing to Barbarian wouldn't require an alignment change at all. Barbarians don't have to be Chaotic; they just have to be non-Lawful.

This does not change the fact that continuing in Cleric is a better idea.

As far as PrCs go, eventually (level 11) you could do a 1-level dip in Contemplative to pick up the War Domain, and then go into Ordained Champion for some good melee abilities. If you want to take this path, you should start looking now for opportunities to fulfill the roleplaying-based prerequisites for Contemplative. But I agree, there aren't great PrC choices for your character concept at this point.

Would the DM let you retrain your feats? None of them are great (Extend Spell is replicatable by a very cheap magic item, and Ancestral Knowledge would be much stronger on a Cloistered Cleric). Divine Vigor in particular seems like a poor use of your Turn Attempts. Travel Devotion would be a much better Turn use -- and it fits perfectly with your deity, and would enhance your melee capability. Divine Spell Power is also good, enhancing the duration and such of your buffs.

At Level 9, you can pick up Quicken Spell, and thereby get some low-level buffs going without having to spend a turn on them. Quickened Divine Favor is the standard.

[dehro]

ancestral knowledge has been serving me rather well, so I'd stick with it for now.
extend spell is prerequisite to getting persistent spell.. which I was going for.. so.. swapping that out I'd have to change course.
divine vigor is the one I'm looking to retrain..possibly for persistent spell...should I go for the divine metamagic+persistent spell combo.
(which still leaves open the issue of only having 3 turn undeads, so far..)

[dehro]

meh.. turns out I misread the specifics on Persistent Spell, which applies to 4 levels higher spells only in forgotten realm specific setting, which ours is not.. everywhere else, the cost is 6 levels higher (which makes me wonder, what's the point, really?)..
to use it I would have to have extra turn undead, which at best I'd get at 12th level... and at that point I'd be able to make only a first level spell persistent.
at 12th level that seems like rather tiny bonus to tie up 4 feats in (extend spell, persistent spell, divine metamagic AND extra turn).

surelly I can do better?

that leaves very little open though.. probably one of the devotion feats, knowledge or travel.

[JaronK]

Remember that you can Extend after Persisting, for 48 hours. This should give you two spells.

Also, Mule's Enlightenment is a Kingdom of Kalamar spell. Learn to love that spell. Consider using Holy Shield as well.

JaronK

[Darrin]

Going all the way to level 8 in straight cleric was a huge, huge mistake - there's never a reason to take more levels of Cleric than absolutely necessary that I can think of, because clerics get no class features for 19 out of their 20 levels. None, zero, zip, zilch, nada. Look at that advancement table, totally blank from 2-20.


Lots of good advice on Cleric PrCs, but I'd just like to point out that sticking with Cleric 20 is still one of the Tier 1 Powerhouses. There's no real need here to PrC into something just to get class features. The Cleric already has class features for 2-20, it's called "I'm kicking butt as a Clericzilla".

OP: It sounds to me like your trouble is spell selection. But let's address the AC problem first:

What is full armor? Do you mean full plate? If so, then how exactly do you have an AC of 21?

10
+1, Dex 12
+9, full plate +1
+3, heavy shield +1
-----
23 AC?

If you can afford Darkleaf (+3000 GP for heavy armor, A&EG), consider upgrading to Heavy Plate (Races of Stone) or Mechanus Gear (Planar Handbook). Ring of Protection +1 and Amulet of Natural Armor +1 both cost 2000 GP, or your ring/throat slots are already occupied, you can add the same effect to your existing items for the same cost as per the rules in the MIC.

Spells:

Avoid casting cure spells in combat unless it's a life/death thing. Avoid direct damage spells unless your enemies are "clumping" and you can nail a bunch of them with a good flamestrike. Focus on buffs, summons, and battlefield control spells.

Ask for or save up for a Circlet of Rapid Casting (15000 GP, MIC). 3/day this lets you get off one of your lower-level buff spells as a swift action (bless or spiritual weapon is good).

Put a wand chamber in your melee weapon and heavy shield (100 GP, Dungeonscape) and put a wand of blade of blood (PHBII) in there. Swift action, +1d6 untyped damage on your next attack, and you can bump it up to +3d6 by sacrificing 5 HP. For your other wand chamber, close wounds (Spell Compendium) would be nifty.

Get a Glyph Seal (1000 GP, MIC). Actually, get several, maybe one for each party member. You can "frontload" some of your 1st/2nd level spells into these seals so they can be activated as a free action later. Attach it to a pocket or a quicker so you can activate the seal with a free action. This allows you to draw a spell component/arrow out of that pocket and activate shield of faith as a free action. If your DM gets twitchy about opening pockets as a free action, attach the seal to your weapon/shield instead, and key it so the spell activates whenever someone other than you touches it. For example, blade of blood triggers whenever you strike an opponent in melee. Or put it on the barbarian's melee weapon to cast bull's strength whenever it touches someone other than her.

1st:

Bless (Core). Great "buff the entire party" spell, but the morale bonus does not stack with Inspire Courage, so you might want to skip it.

Sanctuary (Core). This will buy you a few rounds to get your buffs/summons out. Save DC is low unless you Heighten it, but Will save tends to be the worst for most creatures.

Blade of Blood (PHBII). Swift action, +1d6 damage on your next attack. Get a wand, put it in your wand chamber. On your first round, if you know you're gong to be buffing/summoning and not engaging in melee, the range is touch so you can use it on an adjacent ally's weapon before he charges into melee.

Conjure Ice Beast I (Frostburn). Access to both summon monster and summon nature's ally spells (the latter tends to have better combat summons). You also get to pick from a list of special attacks, one of which is a free-action 10' burst of 1d6 cold damage, no save. Ask your DM if "In all other ways, conjure ice beast I functions like summon monster I" means that you can use Golden Desert Honey (300 GP, Complete Mage) to cast it as a standard action. Chronocharm of the Uncaring Archmage (500 GP, MIC) can also decrease the casting time to a standard action 1/day. Given how the rest of the party is trying to use ranged weapons, it sounds like you need to summon something on the first round so you have something to soak up damage while you prep for tanking.

Ice Slick (Frostburn). Much larger area of effect than grease. You also have a druid and ranger in the party, and they can cast ice skate beforehand, which could give the entire party a 60' speed on the ice. Boots of the Winterland (2500 GP, DMG) also lets you ignore the effects of slippery ice.

2nd:

Bull's Strength (Core). For your barbarian acolyte or the druid's animal companion.

Spiritual Weapon (Core). Excellent "fire and forget" spell that will keep attacking while you do something else. Also, it does force damage which is handy against DR and incorporeal enemies.

Body Ward (Complete Champion). Choose Str/Dex/Con, prevents 5 points of ability damage. Handy if you need to offset Str damage from Sanctified spells.

Cloud of Knives (PHBII). Sort of "fire and forget", free action every round to throw a knife at a target within 30'.

Close Wounds (Spell Compendium). Immediate action, cures 1d4+5 HP to one ally within close range. Great to have handy in a wand chamber.

Conjure Ice Beast II (Frostburn). Large monstrous centipede can engulf medium-sized enemies, or two wolves for 2x cold aura.

Frost Weapon (Frostburn). Adds +1d6 cold damage, another good one to load up on an ally's Glyph Seal.

Guidance of the Avatar (Spellbook Archive (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)). +20 competence bonus on your next skill check. Never fail a UMD check again.

Obscuring Snow (Spell Compendium). You need to pair this up with snowsight, which the ranger/druid can cast on the rest of the party if need be (scrolls/wands of snowsight should be cheap). This turns the entire party into a 30' snowglobe of blinding white murder: the party can see perfectly, but your enemies can't. Be careful with this one, though... your party probably has the resources to keep the snowglobe up 24/7, but if you overdo it, the DM will likely come after you with the banhammer or grudge monsters with blindsight.

Quick March (Spell Compendium). Swift action, entire party gains +30' enhancement bonus to speed for 1 round. Another good spell for a wand chamber.

3rd:

Dispel Magic (Core). Always useful.

Bladebane (Unapproachable East). Weapon touched gains the bane property against a creature type of your choice, lasts 1 round/CL.

Conjure Ice Beast III (Frostburn). Huge monstrous centipede now available, which can engulf large-sized creatures, or four wolves for 4d6 cold aura.

Energy Aegis (PHBII). Immediate action, one ally within close range gets a la carte energy resistance 20 for one attack.

Haboob (Sandstorm). Blocks LOS + Xd4 untyped damage.

Hesitate (PHBII). Immediate action, target must make Will save or is restricted to only one move action per round. Lasts multiple rounds, although the target can attempt a new save every round.

Knight's Move (Spell Compendium). Swift-action teleport a short distance, except you must move into a flanking position.

Revelation (Dragons of Faerun). 20' radius of true seeing for 1 round.

4th:

Divine Powah! (Core). For outfighting the fighters.

Freedom of Movement (Core). Ignore grapple, entangle, etc.

Sheltered Vitality (Spell Compendium). Immunity to fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage, and ability drain.

Wall of Sand (Spell Compendium). Similar to solid fog, you can cast it on top of enemies to slow them down, but unlike solid fog it also blinds/deafens and may eventually suffocate enemies.

[dehro]

my bad.. don't know why I fixated on 21.. you're right, my AC is 23

budget is kinda small.. after a bit of saving, (and after adding a necessary feature to my armor*) I've got 7000+ GP to play with..


*the feature being the "called" property.. on account of how I was fed up with constantly being a drowning risk... we've spent most of our campaign either at sea or on islands, or in dungeons where drowning was a serious possibility.. and the heavy armor penalty on swim checks are a killer... so I'm going around "naked" and ready to call upon my armor now.. haven't had half as many problems since. :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

*the feature being the "called" property.. on account of how I was fed up with constantly being a drowning risk... we've spent most of our campaign either at sea or on islands, or in dungeons where drowning was a serious possibility.. and the heavy armor penalty on swim checks are a killer... so I'm going around "naked" and ready to call upon my armor now.. haven't had half as many problems since. :smallbiggrin:

Lesser Crystal of Aquatic Action (1000 GP, MIC): Completely negates the armor penalty on swim checks and gives you a swim speed equal to 1/2 your land speed. If you're really strapped for cash, the Least version is 250 GP.

Also, might want to keep one of these handy:

Auran Mask
Price: 60 GP
Weight: --
(Complete Mage p. 134)
Provides a +5 circumstance bonus against inhaled toxins (which stacks with Antitoxin), but this is easily overshadowed by 10 minutes of water breathing. Requires less upkeep than Air Plants. For longer durations, consider a potion of water breathing for 750 GP, which lasts for 10 hours.
Craft (Alchemy) DC: 25

[Kelb_Panthera]

Seconding Mnemosyne's suggestion of a re-fluffed RKV.

First off, dipping Crusader would give you survivability. Between Crusader's delayed damage pool and the excellent combat spot-healing of Devoted Spirit maneuvers, you'd be much more able to withstand injury and recover quickly while in combat.

Second, between your buffs (consider DMM Persist if you just want to have them up and running at all times) and Maneuvers, and Crusader's Furious Counterstrike ability, your damage output will be substantial. Divine Fury also adds a +4 to attack rolls and +1d10 to damage - again, increase in output.

Third, Divine Impetus. There's a reason this class is called the Ruby Knight Win-dicator. That extra swift action is incredible. There's a lot that you can do with a swift action, including some really fun spells (Divine Retaliation, for example) and feats (Divine Armor, perhaps?) and, of course, maneuvers.

If your goal is to increase survivability, Crusader helps you. If your goal is to increase melee damage output, almost anything ToB helps you. And RKV is awesome.

The struck features offer very little unless you take a substantial number of levels in crusader, as they key off of crusader level. The post is otherwise solid advice.

[dehro]

a chat with the DM, where I voiced my doubts about what to do with the next level-up, turned up that he's been designing a PrC that feeds in both my character's backstory and the cult of the Traveller. It should be a 5 level one.
I'll admit he got me curious. Tonight is game night, so I'll know more by then.

[Pickford]

That'd seem weird for an FAQ, as the feat itself lists as an example something like "A wizard could pick this feat to gain access to a spell he'd otherwise be unable to ever cast". Suggesting that a Wizard could pick up something like a Cleric spell, or a Druid Spell, etc.

But I can see why it might have had to get errata'd just so that you didn't do something like pull early access off fixed list fast casting PrCs like the Demonologist.


Can the warmage (CAr) benefit from the Extra Spell
feat?
No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells
known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list.
Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class
spell list, this feat has no effect.

Presumably what it means is the Wizard could get a spell they couldn't locate in a library, etc...

A waste of a feat for a Wizard imo, but there it is.

[Drork]

My advise unlike most here comes from the core rule book.

There is a simple thing you can do which may help.

Buy Wands of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigour to free up your spell slots. These cost money but you should be able to argue that they are party items.
You can then use the spell slots to cast more offensive spells or party buffs, which will shorten fights and reduce the damage everyone takes.
This is the number one thing to do. Do not waste your spells healing people.
It is something you need to wean people off. Maybe including the DM. You should be facing a number of encounters a day if your DM is burning your HP so low you need to heal in combat every combat then perhaps he is costing you the wrong resources in combat, the clerics spells. If they DM cant fix their play style demand the wand. Cure light wand 750 gold for 50D8+50 average of 275 hp (over time outside of combat)

The strongest advise I can give you playing a 3.5 cleric is do not focus on damage. Things like bestow curse are permanent so even if they get away they might suffer the affliction next time you face them.
Read the spells and reread to focus on exactly what they do for example command can net you a sweet magic weapon at the price of an AoO from their second weapon. It can end a grapple, put someone out of combat for 2 rounds and giving you a free AoO when they flee.

If you feel like your throwing out your handful of dice. Then stack every second level spell as spiritual weapon. There is no limit to the number you can have out. Its only a move action to change a target per weapon.

Unless you have intel do not buff yourself its a waste of time as you have said. Use spells that dont require you be buffed or get wands and potions so you can just use spells before you do something with a likely hood of battle. If you really want to buff yourself try combat slowing spells like obscuring mist/darkness silence to by you time, it will slow all combat friendly and unfriendly a like. Depending on your DM you might see if you can create an intelligent magic item to cover the minor buffs you want in combat but never have time to cast.

Spend everything you can in buffing your wisdom for your DCs. Also consider a Cha bonus for when the DM feels like throwing some undead at you to make you feel good your turning sucks.

Trick one focus on yourself not the party you will be way stronger and significant contributor.

Tip two bitch at the party when they are sucking your ability to be effective. Point out the druid can heal too, when they counter your argument with but its easier for a cleric remind them it costs the same in the end.

Trick three make your DM fudge the dice because he doesnt want his fights to be over in one or two round then talk to him about why your feel under powered. Nothing like the DM having things with no will save make their will saves 5 or 6 times in a row to have good grounds to a discussion.

[Xerlith]

a chat with the DM, where I voiced my doubts about what to do with the next level-up, turned up that he's been designing a PrC that feeds in both my character's backstory and the cult of the Traveller. It should be a 5 level one.
I'll admit he got me curious. Tonight is game night, so I'll know more by then.

Make him post it here, in the homebrew subforums. The power level of some player-designed classes is sometimes even more off than that of the WotC-made ones. :smalltongue:

Also, methinks you should take a look at:
the aforementioned Ordained Champion (you lag two caster levels behind, but get really nice combat boni). If you can retrain your levels (As PHB2 says), this may prove a nice option.
A Prestige Paladin dip for adding all the Paladin spells to your spell list. You'd have to retrain one feat though. The spells might be worth it - great 1-4 lvl buffs.
Crusader dip. This can be done at 9th level, you snatch 3rd level maneuvers (White raven tactics!) and maybe can qualify for a refluffed RKV -which is awesome.


But Darrin hit the nail on the head - your problem is most probably the spell selection. It's really hard to make a cleric useless.

[Magnetic]

Kruk, Cleric of the Traveller (from the Kingdom of
If I don't multiclass, how do I increase his offensive capabilities? increasing his AC seems pointless because we're facing monsters that make little difference between a AC of 21 and, say, one of 24...
(btw, he spends a lot of his time on the brink of death taking damages in the 20-40 hp range at each hit..which forces him to heal himself a lot and become rather ineffective altogether)...
or should I focus on the spell side of things? how do I boost whatever needs boosting?


It's actually very simple. You have awesome stats. Cast Divine Power during the first round of combat. Every round after that, beat things to death with a 2-handed weapon, while casting blade of blood with your swift action. I suggest a longspear because it has reach. A morning star would be okay, as long as you two-hand it.

Using a +1 Vicious weapon:

Your attack bonus will be something like : +8 BAB, +6 STR, +1 Weapon Enhancement Bonus = +15/+10 for 1d8 + 10 + 2d6, with an additional 3d6 on one of your attacks from blade of blood. You will be hurting yourself a little (you have like 90 hp with Divine Power), but you'll be devastating your opponents.

Your group has a bard and a sorcerer. One of them casts haste, unless they are retarded. Now you, the dire-lion wildshaped druid, the ape, and the archery ranger have an extra attack. Your attacks are now: +16/+16/+11, each attack hitting for an average of 21.5 damage, before blade of blood.

After ripping the opposition to shreds, you heal yourself with a wand of cure light wounds.

So to summarize: No you don't need to multiclass, pick new feats or a bunch of other crap. Just spend ONE standard action per battle to buff: cast divine power, wield a proper weapon (meaning 2-handed), and spend every action beating opponents to death by taking full attack actions + blade of blood. Also, make sure the arcane spellcasters are doing their job (which typically means casting haste on the party). After battle, use a wand of cure light wounds on people.

[Eldariel]

You're caster level 8. Easy way to buff your AC by 2 is to cast Magic Vestment on both of your defensive items. You can further cast Spikes [Complete Divine/Spell Compendium] on your Heavy Mace to buff it (+2 and keen, effectively) and give it your caster level in damage. Magic Circle Against Evil gives you and party members 10 min/level +2 Deflection bonus to AC, +2 to saves, immunity to mind control and protection from summoned monsters, effectively so that's something you want to keep up most of the time too. Resist Energy from level 2 is also something to keep around at all times; cast if you want some specific energy resistance (e.g. if you expect to run into a Dragon or blast-happy Wizard). On top of that, before combat (surprise round or whatever) you can cast Divine Power for +6 Strength and full BAB - since it takes an action and a high level slot, you only should use it when truly at dire straits. Now just take Power Attack or some other damage source as a feat (Holy Warrior [Complete Champion] could be nice too) and layeth the smackdown in a manner most righteous. Power Attack would require two-handing for efficiency so you'd need to switch to Buckler, animated shield or something along those lines.

Don't heal. That's not your job. Cure-spells are mostly inefficient anyways. Only ever spend an action healing out of combat (with Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor; bought with shared party funds/price shared across all members, not your own). Only time you want to heal in-combat is if someone is dying. To that end, prepare "Close Wounds" [Spell Compendium] in some of your level 2 slots. Your natural spell conversion abilities and perhaps a Scroll of Heal and a Scroll of Revivify [Spell Compendium], both bought with party funds, as emergency backup, will help ensure nobody dies on your watch without you ever casting a Cure X Wounds spell.


In short, following spells:
Magic Vestment x 2 - on your armor and shield (party members can get it if they ask for it)
Spikes - on your Mace
Magic Circle Against Evil
Divine Power (for tough fights)

In addition, prepare:
Resist Energy
Silence (can be cast with a prepared action near an enemy caster who's trying to cast; doesn't allow save in that mode, automatically causes non-silent spells to fail)
Close Wounds
Divine Power

Get items for party:
Wand of Lesser Vigor/Cure Light Wounds for out of combat healing
Scroll of Heal & Scroll of Revivify for emergencies


Trade out your Divine Vigor for Power Attack/Holy Warrior/something. Your first level spells are kinda whatever outside Blade of Blood [PHBII] (Conviction from Spell Compendium is a nice 10 min/level buff, and next level Divine Favor will be pretty darn good - even now you can prepare it and Quicken if you have e.g. Circlet of Rapid Casting; Shield of Faith is also worth preparing at least 1 of).

Higher levels are pretty important. Don't forget the option to prepare Death Ward/Freedom of Movement (probably Freedom of Movement in the Domain-slot on level 4). You probably want at least 1 Air Walk available, though since you have Travel-domain you could just use Fly.

You don't need +1 armor or shield thanks to Magic Vestment; Mw. will do. Same goes for your Mace - Spikes takes care of enchanting it (or Greater Magic Weapon).


This way you're looking at:
+11 to hit for 1d8+13 (19-20/x2)
AC 23 (25 vs. Evil)

All day. Divine Favor gives you +13 to hit for 1d8+15 and Divine Power +16 to hit for 1d8+16. With both you'd be looking at +18 to hit for 1d8+18. Holy Warrior would further give you +4 damage (as long as you keep a level 4 War-domain spell, Divine Power, prepared). Shield of Faith would give you AC 26 against everything.

And yeah, prestige class or pure cleric. Caster levels power Cleric-buffs. You can also get Quicken Spell and start Quickening Divine Favor on next level which is a great way to get +3/+3 to fighting stats. Righteous Might is also coming your way. In other words, things will be good as long as you keep taking levels that advance Cleric-casting. You're right on the verge of going from Awesome to Awesome. Level 5 spells also include Righteous Wrath of the Faithful [Spell Compendium], which obviates the need for Haste. Once you get more level 4 slots, Recitation [Spell Compendium] can also be a nice buff if you happen to have the time to cast it (but just rounds/level and standard action makes it a bit clunky, plus the Attack Bonus doesn't stack with Divine Favor).

EDIT: That AC seems low. You should have 10+1 Dex+8 Fullplate+2 Shield = 21 before enchantments. So 23 as of now, 25 with Magic Vestments, 27 vs. Evil with Protection.

[ericgrau]

Spikes is only 1 round per caster level. So if he casts it in a fight on top of another buff his damage for that fight will go down not up. This is exactly the issue he's already been having. In his entire campaign he might get two buffing rounds once or twice, which is why you scroll such things if anything and never count on them being there as part of your general strategy. Even 10 min/level stuff is iffy a lot of the time.

The issue with this kind of Codzilla is that you suck for a long time then wait until high level to barely exceed the NPC warrior class in melee; not outdo a full BAB class that has actual class features like people keep implying. You say "but I can cast too!" but you can't do both in the same round, especially if you're blowing your swift on buffs. And all your feats went to DMM persist stuff. So all you can really do is cast, which is nice, but you still can't melee effectively at the same time. Attempting to do so becomes a trap. Even nightstick stacking DMM persist divine power finds itself falling far behind a basic ubercharger, or even mild optimization without any uberchargeness. In fact the best thing to do with DMM persist is whole party buffs. I don't even call DMM persist divine power cheese anymore because I've only ever seen it put nice numbers on paper, while actually doing very ineffective things with the cleric.

It's all about budgeting your actions and abilities. To get multiple targets out of each one if possible, do as much as possible between fights, make sure you have special abilities leftover that you can use at the same time, or better yet do all of these at once.

GMW, magic vestment, wand of CLW and close wounds are nice. A lesser or full rod of extend spell is nice. The SpC aura spells are nice to DMM persist. I wouldn't get more than 1 round/level, two after you get quicken, and it'd be better to use a mass spells like prayer and quicken bless. I likewise wouldn't get more than one 10 min/level without advanced notice of a dungeon, then by all means spam several. Or else use several spell slots and extend spell to at least get them going 8 hours.

[Eldariel]

The issue with this kind of Codzilla is that you suck for a long time then wait until high level to barely exceed the NPC warrior class in melee; not outdo a full BAB class that has actual class features like people keep implying. You say "but I can cast too!" but you can't do both in the same round, especially if you're blowing your swift on buffs. And all your feats went to DMM persist stuff. So all you can really do is cast, which is nice, but you still can't melee effectively at the same time. Attempting to do so becomes a trap. Even nightstick stacking DMM persist divine power finds itself falling far behind a basic ubercharger, or even mild optimization without any uberchargeness. In fact the best thing to do with DMM persist is whole party buffs.

You're wrong. If you really go full Persistomancer, you easily outfight a Fighter and you can build a charger Cleric with sufficient damage to one-shot anything quite easily. It's trivial to get enough feats for both if you go all the way. Hell, a spell exists to get feats (Heroics), though probably not applicable here (Anyspell is the usual way for Cleric to get it). Thing is, this isn't usually talked about since group buffs is the group-friendly way of doing it. It's not cool to do everything alone even if you can.

Spikes was nerfed to 1 round/level; forgot about that. CDiv version is Hours/level. Well, Greater Magic Weapon then. It should be fine; Blades of Blood and Holy Warrior for plenty of damage anyways.

[ericgrau]

You don't have the feats to make an ubercharger. You blew them all on DMM persist. You can barely outfight an NPC warrior 15 by a couple points of attack bonus, which is quite sad.

Heroics is 10 min/level and gives you 1 feat.

[Eldariel]

You don't have the feats to make an ubercharger. You blew them all on DMM persist. You can barely outfight an NPC warrior 15 by a couple points of attack bonus, which is quite sad.

You've never seen a proper persistomancer then. It's 3 feats for DMM: Persistent Spell (one of which came from Planning-domain), and Craft Rods to make Nightsticks cheap. This means all your feats after level 1 (and two feats on level 1 if you use Flaws) are free.

That said, you can stack enough buffs that you don't need Shock Trooper and most of the important stuff (Pounce, damage multipliers & al.) is available as spells. Persist fully stacked Consumptive Field, stack up Draconic Polymorph and such and you're looking obscene Strength. And that's just the start.


Heroics is 10 min/level and gives you 1 feat.

Heroics is a 3rd level spell through Anyspell and thus cheap to Pearl of Power and get multiples of. Yeah, you have to work around 10 min/level but that's eminently doable.

[ericgrau]

If you can swing several free feats past your DM then it could work. You could still do more by persisting a dozen auras though, shy of semi-infinite cheese tricks. Even with craft rod and unlimited night sticks allowed it takes some levels for that to be affordable.

[Eldariel]

If you can swing several free feats past your DM then it could work. You could still do more by persisting a dozen auras though.

There's no need to get free feats. Human on level 1 gets DMM: Persistent Spell. Flaws are extras and you have level-up feats too. That's just basics. Other Domains come into play as does Heroics as many times as you need to cast it. It's not hard. I could probably make a level 10 Cleric with +100 to hit and enough damage to one-shot Hecatoncheires if I felt like it.

EDIT: Without using loops.

[ericgrau]

Is this PO or TO though? I'm not sure how it works but normally you'd need 200 spell slots to get so many 10 min/levels going all day, so it seems like semi-unlimited stacking or free stuff even if it isn't an infinite loop.

[ArcturusV]

Depends on the resources used. Like as a level 9 cleric (Or character with 9 cleric casting depending on choices, etc), the Cleric has 4+1 second level spell slots. Considering average daily adventuring rates that's either 2.5 or 1.25 second level spells you can afford to burn on an encounter. At least in terms of games and adventures I've seen. Throwing out a spell like say, Sadism which is one I like for my Cleric beatsticking that rarely gets mentioned, is going to last 9 rounds without Metamagic, generally long enough for all but the most heinous of brawls against true titans of the game. Won't help me on round one but for the rest of the fight it's a simple +6 to +10ish Luck bonus on Attack Rolls, Saving Throws, and Skill Checks.

Considering the cleric in question is in a position where buffing time is limited, better than a stick in the eye. Save the higher level slots for Extended/Persisted stuff that's handy to have... DMM'd Persisted Greater Luminous Armor? Granted I'm not really up on the Op-Fu, never really played the game that way and hadn't considered some of the tricks of the trade til I came here. But just a simple example. But even something like that, just having the Armor persisted, and casting Sadism as her one pre round buff would really let her open up with Power Attack, be a pretty tough nut to crack AC and Saving Throw wise as well, let her be more of a Dwarven Brawler without having to sink a ton of wealth she isn't getting in her campaign into doing it. I mean yeah, I know she's a cleric and already has armor. But having weightless power armor that shines and blinds enemies who attack you isn't exactly a stick in the eye. So might let her get back to that "Tank" mode that the cleric was in before and has fallen out of.

[hymer]

Presumably what it means is the Wizard could get a spell they couldn't locate in a library, etc...

A waste of a feat for a Wizard imo, but there it is.

I think the idea is for bards, favoured souls and sorcerers to get more spells on their personal spell lists.

[Eldariel]

Is this PO or TO though? I'm not sure how it works but normally you'd need 200 spell slots to get so many 10 min/levels going all day, so it seems like semi-unlimited stacking or free stuff even if it isn't an infinite loop.

Well. I was just talking about stacking all the buffs from the lower levels, not necessarily using 10 min/level slots. Once I have a bit more time I might actually try and see how much I can do. I mean, Übercharger doesn't really need that many feats. There's like Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Battle Jump, Headlong Rush and that's about it. We can fit all but Shock Trooper with natural feats and we should be able to get sufficient To Hit to ignore the need for Shock Trooper.

Hm, the biggest problem I see is that it's only on level 11 that you have easy access to Polymorph through Greater Anyspell. Without it, it's probably not possible to get numbers quite that high.

[ericgrau]

Alright but separate out 24 hour from 1 hour from minutes/rounds. And for the last one 95% of the time if you spend 3 or more rounds buffing it's too late to contribute meaningfully, and even 1 round past the buff round is usually over 1/3 of your effectiveness gone. So you better get over +50% damage just to break even. You might also include 8 hour if you want, though that's specific to overland travel and is still vulnerable to night ambush. And there are ways around that at certain levels, but there are ways around the ways around that, etc. Up to you.

[dehro]

so.. I'll be translating the PrC as it's been given me
I don't qualify yet, but I will once I level up to 10th level (so, not this level but the next)
it doesn't add too much in terms of fighting prowess, I think, but it's completely in line with the character flavour-wise and does fill a few gaps... also, I guess I can use this with knowledge devotion to quite a good effect.
sources are the horizon walker and the seeker of the misty isle

JOURNEYMAN SEEKER (journeymen are the Traveler's clerics)

------BAB---F--R--W---feats--------------------spells
Lv. 1---0----0--0---2---extra domain (knowledge)-+1 spellcaster lv
------------------------+ innate knowledge
Lv. 2---1----0--0---3---terrain mastery-----------+1 spellcaster lv
Lv. 3---2----1--1---3---innate knowledge 2/day---+1 spellcaster lv
Lv. 4---3----1--1---4---superior terrain mastery --+1 spellcaster lv
------------------------+Arcane Sight 2/day
Lv. 5---3----1--1---4---innate knowledge 3/day, --+1 spellcaster lv
------------------------+Analyze Dweomer 1/day


Dice: D6
Class Skills: craft, concentration, knowledge (any), decipher script, profession, spellcraft
prerequisites:
-3rd level spells caster, divine or arcane.
-knowledge (any) 5 ranks +
-knowledge (any) 2 ranks +
-knowledge (any) 2 ranks
-Survival 2 ranks
-being a member of the Seekers, an in-game organisation,membership to which is easy for me to obtain.
Weapon and armor proficiency: the PrC doesn't grant any aditional proficiencies.
knowledge domain: is a bonus domain.
Innate knowledge: once daily, the Seeker can access the knowledge accrued in his travels and studies, to obtain a +3 bonus on any knowledge skill check. the power can be used twice at 3rd level, and trice at 5th.
Terrain mastery: once daily the Seeker can meditate for 30 min. and obtain a +3 bonus towards knowledge skill checks, for a number of uses equal to his levels as Seeker. at fourth level the bonus is +6. not necessarily in the same subject.
Arcane Sight: as the spell, can be used twice a day
Analyze Dweomer: as the spell, can be used once a day. cost for material components to the spell still applies.

I'm pretty much committed to taking another level as cleric, maybe with travel devotion as a talent (with the option of retraining either extend spell or divine vigor for something else)... and then taking this PrC and roll with it.... but I'm still open to debate, suggestions and thoughts, especially on the feat retraining issue

[dehro]

Remember that you can Extend after Persisting, for 48 hours. This should give you two spells.

Also, Mule's Enlightenment is a Kingdom of Kalamar spell. Learn to love that spell. Consider using Holy Shield as well.

JaronK

love the enlightenment spell.. but it's limited to priests of another deity.

[Xerlith]

Grab the Knowledge Devotion feat. I'm surprised nobody (including me :smallbiggrin:) pointed it out before.

[Drork]

Firstly I would note this PrC is not build for you. It doesnt do anything you want or think you want. If you dont meet the requirements till level 10 its not your PrC this class is build for a level 5 entry point. This PrC is actually shows just how much miss communication there is between you and your DM you are not on the same page you arnt even in the same book.



I have no clue where to go to with the next level.

might be shot down by the DM, who thinks that Kruk's divine path should keep to the chosen "tendency" towards good, as per background and general rules of the setting/clergy he is a part of...or risk suffering the consequences.

If I don't multiclass, how do I increase his offensive capabilities?

(btw, he spends a lot of his time on the brink of death taking damages in the 20-40 hp range at each hit..which forces him to heal himself a lot and become rather ineffective altogether)...

or should I focus on the spell side of things? how do I boost whatever needs boosting?

what talents am I overlooking?
I've had a look into prestige classes, but there seems to be nothing that is tooled towards a neutral/neutral-good cleric or divinity.. nothing worth taking anyway.

little help??

I quoted your first post with some snips so you could consider your questions vs what your DM has given you. You asked how you can increase his offensive abilities ... PrC JOURNEYMAN SEEKER has no additional way to do this. Potential convince your DM to let you use innate knowledge for any skill or abilities that includes attack rolls or damage rolls. Use Lore master knowledge skills as an example they get a bonus + 1 all the time where yours would be a one shot wonder Id push for it to be an action point from ebberon roll of a 3 meaning you could use it after you have rolled.
If your interested in the all knowledges push to get UMD skill added too the class. It is quite powerful will open your DM to offering a lot of interesting items.

You mentioned you suffer big hits that drop your HP very quickly. 1D6 HP is going to make this worse.

I get the feeling your issue isnt so much cleric but how your DM wants you to play your cleric. You might need to have a longer conversation about how your cleric is playing as part of the party on and off the battle field. What you want from your cleric. Do not be shy to tell them what you want from your game, or how your feeling.

Id be mad at my DM if they presented this PrC to me considering where I have already gone. Hell your party bard probably qualifies for this before you do.

Going over it assume BaB and spell casting table the same, give yourself 2 strong saves same as cleric .... then replace your special abilities with and higher HD for 1D8 ... Then call it a PrC called Cleric and realize its stronger.

That being said lets focus on what you want to do and rework the PrC to suit.
Clerics get 2 skills + int a dwarf with int 12 gets 3 skill points you should not be going for a high skill requirement. Trying to stick with a similar consent of your DM but shifting it to more your build/desires

Knowledge religion 5 ranks. One other knowledge skill.
Feat one meta magic feat.
BAB +4
Ability to cast 3lvl spells
These prerequisites push the class more to cleric than wizard or sorceror due to the BAB.

Journey man seekers are followers of the traveler they use knowledge from the travels of their god to know things they couldnt possibility know.

HD 1D8 same as Cleric.
BAB same as Cleric 3/4s
Strong saves fort and will same as cleric.
Level 1
Shifting domain. Once a follower of the traveler becomes a journey man they understand their god has the ability to adept in their travels. They unlock an additional domain spell spell list and ability if they do not already hold at least one (for arcane casters). With 24 hours of meditation they can switch a domain including the domain ability. They can only maintain two domains at one time the ability to adapt is valued highly by the traveler. This enables a priest of the traveler to be mistaken for other kinds of priests when they desire although they should be careful not to stray too far from their own religion as some priests lose their faith if they travel too long.
Level 2
Knowledge of the traveler.
A follow of the traveler awakens the knowledge that their religion contains secrets of all knowledge with in it. A follow of the traveler can use a knowledge religion check in place of any knowledge skill they have at least a single rank in. Once per day per number of class levels in Joruneyman.
Level 3
Combat knowledge.
Followers of the Traveler realize they are not always welcome and sometimes enter areas of high conflict. Due to this they draw on the knowledge of the traveler to assist them in combat. After meditation for 24 hours they are able to grant their class level as a knowledge bonus to either their AC,To hit or damage rolls, until they change with more meditation.
Level 4
Gift of the Traveler.
Many of the travelers follows understand that not everything you find on your travels is useful in its current form. Those who are truly blessed can alter magic items to a more useful or personal form. With 24 hours of meditation they are able to shift magical items enhancements to a non magical item of master work craftsmanship. The limits of this ability is +1 modifier per your Journey man class level when considering weapons or armor or in the case of wondrous items Journey man class level X 3 caster level requirement.
(This ability is so your DM can throw some random magic items at you and you can turn them into something useful for the party well maintaining his low magic item side of things. Its still only one magic item. It also limits you from the really powerful items)
Level 5
Combat knowledge enhanced. Lets you apply your combat knowledge to two skills at the same time.
Enhanced knowledge. Once per day you can use your knowledge religion for any skill you have seen being used.
Wisdom of travel. You can identify things of value at a glance. Anything highly magic or valuable calls to your expert eye. You can instantly realize things of high value this grants you a + 4 bonus on search rolls when finding treasure. It does not actually give you the ability to identify or appraise said item. (this leaves your bard the chance to roll a bardic lore skill. It also lets your DM throw unique items and point them out to you, with the ability to switch domains given some short down time you are able to pull out legend lore)
This ability can grant you unexpected knowledge about places or times at the DMs discretion.

[Pluto!]

I'm never a fan of self-buffing as a Cleric, since those spell slots, feats and actions could be going to so many other things, like dropping insane spells on your enemies or on the party.

Mass buffs, mass debuffs, battlefield control and summons (breakdown and SLAs index here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255219)) are available to Clerics regardless of classes or feats, and are usually pretty danged good.

A Cleric can usually be pretty devastating just by preemptively buffing party members with Girallon's Blessing, Benediction & Air Walk, opening fights with a Recitation, Wall of Sand or Mass Aid/Conviction/Shield of Faith, then spamming mass debuffs and powerful utility spells like Ayailla's Radiant Burst, Nauseous Breath, Waves of Grief, Silence, Celestial Aspect and Summon Monster III (for 1d4+1 Small monstrous spiders, or Koarti/Coure/Bacche SLAs) with a couple powerful situational spells held in reserve like Dispel Magic, Wind Wall and Downdraft.

[dehro]

Apparently the saying about the bet laid plans holds some truth.
After the accidental opening of a rift between planes, my poor cleric has met his Maker.
There would be an option to restore him with a druidic spell, but I've done that before, which caused him (the character) any number of issues and unwanted plot twists. On top of that, I'd be restored at 7th, almost 8th level, where my companions, minus the bard who also kicked the bucket today, are at almost 10th level.... Also, the character would have 0 equipment because my companions had to leave us both behind to be looted down to our undies.

Soooo... Apparently the time has come to roll a new character altogether.