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kkortekaas
2007-01-08, 11:48 AM
Howdy,
I'm having some trouble populating my homebrew cities. If I have a large city of say, 1000 citizens and I wanted to have say 5 - 7 feeder villages, now large would said feeder villages be?

The role of the feeder villages would be harvesting of materials (wood, stone, metals etc) and food.

While the large city would be a centre of trade and the location of most of the large merchant houses.

Consider the villages to be ruled by a "Baron" appointed by the "King" in the larger city.

Matthew
2007-01-08, 11:54 AM

A good rule of thumb is to have a ratio of 9:1 Rural to Urban Population. So your example City would be supported by 9,000 Rural Inhabitants.

Iituem
2007-01-08, 12:29 PM
As an additional note, your feeder villages cannot be more than 1/3 of a day's travel from the central town, if they are selling food at the town marketplace. That should be roughly 5-6 miles.

icke
2007-01-08, 01:38 PM
Also take into account that in a world that can supply druid and clerical magic to increase the food production(plant growth increases harvests by a factor of 1/3), the above numbers can safely be lowered a bit, to a minimum of 3/4 of the original value. In the above example, that would be around 7000 rurals ,and a handfull of druids, of course.

kkortekaas
2007-01-08, 02:18 PM
Part of my problem is that the homebrew I'm building the cities for suffers from a slightly odd circumstance.

Basically a group of about 2500 - 3000 refugees from another "prime" have fled to this virgin land, and set up shop.

The dwarves and gnomes grouped up and have started a small outpost in a nearby mountain range

The elves have sailed a short distance off the coast to a nearby chain of islands

And the humans have setup shop in 1 large town with the series of feeder cities. I'm just having trouble dividing up the population...

Help would be greatly appreciated.

(As an FYI , magic would be at say, the Greyhawk level)

Iituem
2007-01-08, 05:21 PM
H'okay... your entire population is 2500-3000 refugees, consisting of a mixed dwarven, gnomish, elven and human population. There is no other civilised presence in the land (to their knowledge, or for the purposes of our analysis).

Assuming they have all arrived in the same place and at the same time, it would make sense that with such small numbers of people they would have immediately settled in one location for the sake of food, supplies and company. Assuming they had time and luxury to pick a place, they will have settled in a suitable area of verdant plains, likely with available (more or less) fresh water, access to the coast and suitable resources. Possibly a river mouth or small delta. The main town will likely have been founded at the landing site or close by, with initial settlers in close proximity.

Let us assume a couple of years have passed, based on what you have said. Sufficient time for basic infrastructure to develop, enough that the dwarves and elves have the luxury of departing from the central settlements. Presumably by this point surface ore supplies are running low and the dwarves and gnomes have seized the opportunity to retreat to their more familiar underground habitat and start mining - still contributing to the survival of the fledgling nation, but not needing to put up with those pesky humans or elves any more. Ideally, the mountain site chosen for the mine should be along the river, otherwise roads will have had to be constructed out to the nearest hills. The river banks will probably be dotted with villages of maybe 200 at intervals of about 3 miles, mostly dedicated to farming, with villages near the outpost supplying it with food.

If we are to assume 'standard' D&D demographics, of a total population of 3000, possibly 300 will be non-human (probably not enough for viable long-term breeding in humans, but possibly amongst such long-lived species). Given the long life and rarity of elves, this will probably be split into 140 gnomes, 100 dwarves, 60 elves. Given the gnomish propensity for tinkering, they will probably find themselves as much at home in town as in the mines, with dwarves (likely only one clan) taking a more isolationist perspective.

The mining outpost, then, will probably be an almost solely dwarven colony, with a small number of gnomes helping out. Perhaps 120 dwarves and gnomes will live and work in the mines. Interestingly, this means that there must really be at least 6 villages within a 6 mile radius (you require roughly 1200 farmers to support this many non-farmers). To make things easier, let us assume that the mine is actually in the hills quite close to the established town (but still accessible by river).

So we have our central town (probably with most of the gnomish population living there), surrrounded by a series of villages providing a belt of farmland. Most of the population will be farmers and dependents (about 2500) living in the villages, leading to roughly 12 villages dotted around the delta/river/plains, some of which supply the mining outpost (which is in the hills, 8 miles away). Your central town now consists of a mere 300 people, a third of which are gnomes (the remaining gnomes being transient artisans amongst the rural population). Given the gnomes are talented craftsmen (and some of them talented mages) with strong family ties, they will probably have quickly established themselves as foremost citizens of the realm and the ruling council may even be largely gnomish. Gnomes may well dominate the magical institutions.

The elves leaving relieves the issue slightly, as they can forage for themselves. Why exactly they have left depends on your intents. It may be they have departed in search of unavailable arcane reagants needed for magic, or they may have simply decided they didn't play well with the other races and just left (or even may have been forced to leave). Indeed, if the gnomish influence is as strong as I have made out, the elves may well have left in protest and frustration at the growing gnomish popularity and control (with the population possibly considering the elven population cold and aloof in comparison to a warmer possibility in gnomes). Elves-wise, however, remember that you really only have enough people for a small village on those isles.

Iituem
2007-01-08, 05:25 PM
So. Central town of 500 humans and gnomes (220 farmers, 280 non-farmers, with other non-farmers distributed amongst the villages) supplied by about 12 villages of 100-250 people, all within a small zome of control (about 6 miles out from the capital). 8 miles away, slightly out of the capital's control (and thus with a possibility of rebelling someday), we have the primarily dwarven mine and foundry of 120 souls, supplied by a number of the closer villages. Meanwhile, a group of about 50 elves (leaving perhaps 10 on the mainland) has departed for some nearby isles to set up their own tiny colony.

Iituem
2007-01-08, 05:49 PM
Actually, it just now occurs to me. If your main city is at a port, you can support one non-farmer for every fisherman (and his dependents) you have, because fisheries yield rather ridiculous quantities of protein.*

If you wish, you can reduce the number of surrounding villages to 9 and increase the size of your central town to 1100, with 220 farmers, 300 fishermen and 580 non-farmers (including a burgeoning boating industry). The aforementioned gnomish political prominence is still a factor, albeit less of one. They may well still have a lot of clout where magic is concerned, though.

*So much so that one day it will probably be one of the town's major exports. Wars will be fought over it. If you don't believe me, look up the 'Cod Wars'.

kkortekaas
2007-01-09, 08:54 AM
I've discovered my demographics burried under a pile of stuff.

Elves - 600
Dwarves - 500
Gnomes - 250
Half-Orcs - 100
Half-Elves - 100
Humans - 1500
Halflings - Small amount of local halflings tribes have integrated into "civilized" society.

Iituem
2007-01-09, 09:52 AM
Hmm. Who led the colonists getting there? (race, leaders)

kkortekaas
2007-01-09, 10:26 AM
I'll point form the key points in the homebrew's history.

- A conflict started in the old world along racial lines resulting in a world of war.

- after a couple decades the various factions decided it would be a bright idea to summon devils & demons to fight for them which was of course a very bad idea

- everything spiralled out of control and resulted in the old enemies uniting to fight the mounting extraplanar threat.

- Two wizards (One human, One Elven) discovered a portal located in Dwarven lands that lead to another prime world. They brought together a large group of people and supplies and fled their battered world in what is know as "The Exodus"

- Essentially the new world is a dinosaur infested jungle populated by savage Halfling tribes (although some are willing to civilize themselves) and the crumbling ruins of a great Aztec like Hobgoblin Empire

- The Dwarves are a Monarchy ruled by a Queen, the Elves run a loose collection of village states on their island chain, and the human kingdom is very much a communist state (the whole good of the many schtick) but has a lot of dissidents as of year five A.E. (After Exodus)

- Back-story on the Halflings is that they were used as slaves by the Hobgoblin Empire and about 200 years ago rebelled utterly destroying the hobgoblin empire from the inside.

If you require further info, please let me know.

Scalenex
2007-01-09, 02:32 PM
That backstory is pretty cool. Weird, but cool. The downside being their isolation would make it harder to support Clerics and wizards and perhaps Bards but you can work around that.

kkortekaas
2007-01-09, 03:03 PM
I figured that during the Exodus a large variety of classes travelled to the new world, and I enjoy the old cosmology (I think Planescape had all primes connected) so the gods can transfer to their new home as well.

Emperor Tippy
2007-01-09, 03:42 PM
I've discovered my demographics burried under a pile of stuff.
I'll give you my opinions.

Elves - 600
This is a viable Elven population given their long life spans and propensity for magic. Inbreeding can be mostly negated do to their extremely long life spans and magic can solve a lot of the problems of a fledgling nation. Expect a lot of magic items to be made by this group.

If we fast forward 100 years or so the elves will probably be the most secure.

Dwarves - 500This is 1-2 clans worth of dwarves and due to their life span they can most likely avoid inbreeding. The lack of magic hurts them unless their are a lot of clerics (and do the previous planes gods work here? or does this prime have different gods?) .

Fast forwarding 100 years or so gives us a dwarven population that is still going strong.

Gnomes - 250To small a population. Without a lot of magic and a very structured breeding program that would take 100's of years the gnomes will die off. If they have a large number of wizards and access to the spell Smoky Confinement (from CM) then they could do this. You effectively rotate the population. The gnomes go off on their own and set up a village well away from the rest of the races. A small village is set up that can support about 50 gnomes. The other 200 gnomes get smoky confinement cast on them and go into stasis. The gnomes are then rotated on a 2 year up, 10 year down schedule. Every year 25 gnomes switch places with 25 gnomes who are currently under smoky confinement. Any children are kept awake for the 40 years until they reach adult hood (40 years) and then they join the cycle. Over time the population can be expanded and after about 500 years you would have a viable population large enough to survive inbreeding and the original gnomes would have only aged about 100 years.

Half-Orcs - 100They die out within 100 years or are in bred with humans and half-orc traits pop up every once in a while in human stock. The population is to small to survive and due to their nature and the dislike of the other races towards them combine to mean that they won't survive. If the other races don't just band together and eliminate them as a matter of course in the beginning.

Half-Elves - 100In breed with humans and become effectively human after 5 generations or so.

Humans - 1500A lot harder to judge than the others. Your right on the threshold of a large enough population to avoid most of the affects of inbreeding if the humans are careful. If the humans band together under 1 leader and survive the initial 4 or so generations then they can thrive. To raise their population to the necessary levels though will be very harsh on the females. Reproduction would be the first law. A women over the age of 15 can have a child per year and do this until she reaches the age of around 40. Assuming that all magic that can be is used to insure the womens survival, and that most of the human females were 30 or younger, you would have say 6000 children alive after 10 years. Using magic to keep children fed is doable and if they were trained for magical professions and sorcerers were bred with sorcerers to keep that trait and absolutely draconian measures were instituted to keep the population alive (eugenics in the extreme) the humans could survive and after 100 years you could have a population under 30 of 100,000 of whom almost all are wizards, sorcerers, or clerics (and if psionics exists, psions) and who have been bred for all the "best" attributes (strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom, and charisma/beuty) and are ruthlessly trained from birth to be the ideal. Expect these humans to rule the world.

But if they fight amongst them selves for and kill off even 500 of their number, or split into multiple groups, they are effectively doomed.

Halflings - Small amount of local halflings tribes have integrated into "civilized" society.
assume about 250If they do like the gnomes they can survive, otherwise they die out in about 5 generations.

Iituem
2007-01-09, 05:56 PM
The Elves are probably in the best position as a group. Living on the islands, they could support themselves in a number of relatively small villages. If the elves are spread out amongst, say, 6 villages with roughly a hundred people in each (dotted between the island chain) and the islands are sufficiently small or they remain close to the coast, they will find themselves with a bountiful supply of fish for food. Most of the population will be elven, although some half-elves may have travelled along with them to the islands.

Assuming some of the fish (which can become a very bland meal after a while) is supplemented by farms or orchards on the islands, you can have as much as 25% of your elven population as non-producers (the other 75% consist of farmers, fishermen, their wives and their families). This naturally leads to a very high quality of life amongst the elven population, probably lending itself to a high degree of art and plenty of free time to practise martial skill and magic.

The luxury of additional time and training means that the elven martial class (although still quite small) is composed largely of fully-trained fighters rather than warriors, more akin to the Samurai of feudal Japan than the warrior class of feudal France. Then again, they largely serve as a police force and leadership rather than a standing army. In times of war, the elven villages can expect to draw on about 35 farmers and fishermen and 20 urban workers to form a small conscript army, along with all of the martial and magical forces. Total army size: 75 men (of which 25 are effectively a standing army).

There is an unusually large number of entertainers and magic-users, although this is hardly surprising given the nature of those who led the exodus. Although female elves in the working class count as dependents (due to weaknesses regarding hard physical labour), female elves in the non-producing population are generally workers (able to apply themselves equally well to manufacturing trades and magic). As a rule of thumb, one working class male supports three dependents and a % of a non-producer depending on the crop he harvests (10% for wheat, 30% for corn, up to 150% for fish). Each urban worker (male or female) supports half a dependent.

Elven Population: 450 farmers, fishermen and dependents (mostly fishermen), of which 115 are workers. 150 non-producers, of which 10 are full-time fighters, 4 are wizards, 6 are priests/clerics, 20 are capable artisans, 40 are apprentices or labourers, 20 are entertainers (a pair of acting troupes, some professional orators and so on) and about 50 are dependents. A small number of dependents (less than 5) will be minor criminals.

Humanity, meantime, is not in such a favourable position but has the advantage of numbers. Assuming they have followed true to their instincts, they will immediately have gone out to settle as much land as can support them. A village with farmland of about 3 square miles will support 180 people, so maybe 6 villages of between 150-200 people will exist, four of which will surround the central human town with one town situated six miles from the central town and another nine miles away, towards the dwarven outpost in the mountains.

The furthest town (which we will call Harlskeep, for the moment) will probably have its own keep and be ruled by an appointed official (keeping in theme with the communism), probably becoming a refuge for the lawless and less socially adept (particularly adventurers). Being frontier territory, it attracts more dangerous and hardier types than the central plain and river. For the sake of safety and agriculture, it may be assumed that 3 miles of jungle have been cleared out from the human settlements, providing farmland and making it easier to spot potential threats.

The half-orcish element of humanity will tend towards the farms and villages where they can overcome the pervading stigma about them by virtue of their natural aptitude for hard labour. The half-elven element will tend towards the town, closer to the fine art and craft they are more used to. Halflings will mostly have settled into the human villages, however the disturbingly high number with pathologically criminal streaks will have moved to the human town instead. Gnomes will deviate towards the town because their aptitude for tinkering puts them in natural use there, though many will have gone to live with the dwarves.

Humanity in the villages tends to consist of about 180 people, perhaps 40 of whom are halflings, with a handful of half-orcs. Of these, 44 are farmers, 132 are dependents and 4 are non-farmer workers. Of the non-farmers, 2 will be the appointed steward and his sherriff (likely a 3rd level and 2nd level warrior) and 2 will be local artisans. The five central villages share a couple of blacksmiths, a travelling joiner, a doctor and midwife, two gnomish travelling tinkers, two priests (acolyte class) and a mason. These sometimes visit Harlskeep as well, though not often.

The central town has a burgeoning population of 400 humans, 80 half-elves, 48 gnomes, 40 halflings (one small tribe and about 15 major criminals) and a handful of half-orcs and elves. Dwarves are conspicuously absent. In all likelihood relations with the dwarves are strained at best, whose homes the colonists barged into and likely tried to take by force when trying to escape their dying world. Even with a tenuous peace the dwarves have likely not forgotten the insult and probably consider humanity to be 'elf-lovers' for the most part, leaving to form their own outpost as soon as dwarvenly possible. Humanity, in turn, probably distrusts them greatly (at least in the central town).

Of the central population, once again fishing saves the day. An expansive fishing fleet of 100 fishermen, supported by the halfling tribe (25 of them with 6 full workers, farming the belt around the town) supports a dependent population of 304 humans and 19 halflings, along with an urban population of 140. Of the urban working population of 94, only 3 are full-time constabulary with a handful of 'concerned citizens' from the other professions to keep the peace. This has led to something of an extensive underworld influence in the town and the watch has almost certainly crumbled to corruption (having no real other choice). By this point, the law exists mostly to keep the people from revolting against the government.

Of the remaining 91, 3 are wizards, 3 are clerics (of different faiths, 2 serving in a communal temple to all the good gods and 1 practising in the backstreets to a few of the darker ones), 18 are trained artisans (some of whom are on the governmental commitee), 36 are apprentices or labourers, 6 are entertainers of various types, 2 are tavern owners (one is the public town tavern, one serves the underworld element) and 23 are full-time criminals (including several errant halflings, a small family of halflings organising much of the crime [15 halflings in total], most of the half-orcish urban population and a few humans). The organised criminal element typically enforces most of the 'law' in the town.

In a time of war, were the entire central nation to mobilise (not counting Harlskeep), it could draw upon 13 warriors, 3 mages and 3 clerics as its official standing army, with a peasant levy of perhaps 45 able-bodied men from the fields, 20 from the fisheries and 15 from the urban workers (80). However, were the criminal element in the central town to join up or act as a mercenary force and employ its full active membership (all of whom are combat-ready on some level), the numbers would easily rise by another 23, putting the total human kingdom's army at 122 men.

Harlskeep, by virtue of its distance from the central town and proximity to the dwarven colony, will probably have different attitudes to the rest of the human community. Likely more often under attack from hobgoblins and other natives they will have occasionally used dwarven protection and probably maintain a strong trading relationship with them (too far from the human town to easily get supplies, closer to the dwarven outpost some 5 miles away). The distance makes it more difficult for central authorities to enforce law, resulting in a relatively lax attitude, a greater dependence on personal protection and more crime than the human average. It is almost certainly a haven for half-orcs and may have a handful of dwarves resident.

If Harlskeep has 205 people resident, of which 48 are working farmers (supporting 144 dependents, total population of 192), periodically trading grain and vegetables for dwarven foodstuffs (with a surprisingly high net gain of supporting 8 more non-farmers), 13 non-farmers will be supported. Of those, 1 is the steward (expert class), 1 is the captain of the guard (fighter), 1 is his lieutenant (higher level warrior) and 5 more are guards devoted to watching the keep. Of the remaining 5, two are resident craftsmen (possibly a couple, with the husband as blacksmith and wife as seamstress), one is a priest (cleric or acolyte) and two are children. Despite the high military presence, the guard is more concerned about security and the potential of raids, including a small number of bandits preying on the road back to the central lands. Crime is low, but the populace are not stifled by the law and so a greater freedom of expression can be found.

The dwarves are in a curious position, living almost permenantly underground, so we will need to apply a little creative thinking regarding their food sources. For an underground race, large-scale cultivation of fungi is one of the best potential food sources, providing a very plentiful protein supply with comparatively little use of land. For those who thing large-scale fungal cultivation is a new thing (see Quorn), mushrooms were grown en masse in the catacombs of Paris well over 400 years ago (and probably before that).

Mushroom cultivation can become rather complex, so be prepared to make good Craft (mushroom farming) checks. The good mushroom farmer takes a piece of existing mushroom mycelium and prepares a medium for initial growth. This is usually a small amount of crushed grain, heated to high temperatures beforehand. The mycelium (mushrooms put out root-like strands through the soil known as 'hyphae', a mycelium is a collection of hyphae) is added to the grain medium with a bit of water and left to grow until it has covered the grain (it is now known as spawn). After this point, alchemy comes into play.

The spawn is spread over and into a substrate. The substrate is what the mushrooms will grow on, usually a log, piece of bark, soil or wood shavings. The dwarves pick up lots of fallen wood from the jungle outside the outpost to serve as substrate, also importing large amounts of prime sawdust from the human town. Different farmers use different substrates, some growing their mushrooms on logs, some on bark in trays, some on large pillars, some even in burlap bags filled with sawdust (the mushrooms poke through and grow on the outside). The mushroom farmer uses alchemical devices (a basic set costs 50gp and can be produced by Craft (alchemy), with a masterwork set at 550gp) to modify moisture, temperature and atmosphere within the growing chamber, first producing conditions that favour growth of the spawn, then conditions that produce fungal 'pinheads', then finally the conditions that favour growth of mushrooms.

After about 6 weeks of preparation and growth (skipping over a lot of details, this isn't a mushroom farming essay) mushrooms appear in 7-day cycles (4-5 days of growth, 2-3 days without) over a period of usually 6-8 weeks (sometimes 9, even up to 20) during which they can be harvested. The farmer maintains the conditions of the farming chamber and harvests mushrooms for as long as he can. The whole cycle usually takes about 15 weeks, making for three or more harvests in a year (regardless of weather conditions). This independence on natural conditions probably lends itself to a dwarven mindset of artifice, where their farming techniques are based more on scientific method than on the whims of the weather. It is also why mushroom farming is a Craft skill rather than a Profession.

The upshot of all that is that mushroom farming is suitable for either sex (reducing dependency issues), depends more on intelligent use of specific techniques than a broad range of knowledge and has a remarkably high surplus rate (on account of the regular harvests). A mushroom farmer with a 6m square chamber to work in (assuming he uses most of it for growth) can provide enough protein for himself, a dependent and a whole non-worker. That said, eating nothing but mushrooms all day can become immensely tiresome, even for dwarves. A whole culture based on ways to flavour their basic foodstuff (of which they have to eat a surprising amount, due to the water content of the things) and dress it with supplementary meat and vegetables will likely have arisen, probably making dwarves avid importers of spices. The more military-minded will have found ways of grinding mushrooms up, dehydrating them and compressing them into thick ration bars.

So, back to our dwarven colony of 500. Of that 500, only about 165 or so are mushroom farmers, with a few huntsmen and wood collectors to supplement the dwarven diet. 170 are dependents (mostly children), with the remaining 165 as non-producers. Of the 110 workers, most of the men (35) are full time miners, with 5 smelters, 3 smiths and two clerics. The remaining 10 are all fully trained fighters and part of the guard. The female population largely devotes itself to less manually demanding trades, with 30 trained craftswomen, 10 apprentices, 5 teachers (the dwarven populace apparently takes education very seriously), 5 alchemists and 5 entertainers.

The 200 gnomes living with the dwarves have taken on the practice of mushroom farming, although they are less effective at it. 75 gnomes are farmers, with another 75 dependents and a mere 50 non-producers. Of the 35 working members, 5 are part of the guard alongside the dwarves, 10 are metalsmiths and tinkers, 2 are mages, 8 are woodworkers, 8 more work in other crafts and 2 act as travelling merchants to trade between the outpost and nearby Harlskeep.

Iituem
2007-01-09, 06:00 PM
Ooof. Missed Tippy's post, but he has a point about the numbers. Strictly speaking, there will be inbreeding issues a few years down the line for many of these (although not the halflings, who are indigenous). The gnomes may survive, but there will certainly be issues.

Scalenex
2007-01-09, 06:25 PM
Ooof. Missed Tippy's post, but he has a point about the numbers. Strictly speaking, there will be inbreeding issues a few years down the line for many of these (although not the halflings, who are indigenous). The gnomes may survive, but there will certainly be issues.

Sounds like the issues of mere survival take precedent over having genetically viable grandchildren. You can get around inbreeding issues by flat out saying it doesn't matter (this is kind of a new Eden), you could have the colonists slowly die off, you could have them eventually return home (perhaps after questing for a powerful whozit in this savage land), or you can have more refugees arrive.

On another note, I have trouble believing crime would be as high as was illustrated given the low population and high hardships endured. Even a moderate amount of crime could throw off the social order. I'd have to do most research on how small early settlements like Plymoth Rock and the like fared before passing final judgment on this though. But hey, playability before realism right?

Iituem
2007-01-09, 06:37 PM
You're probably right, but by this point crime has sort of gone beyond its organised state. It would be more accurate to say that there is a second power base in the human town (the organised halfling criminals) who probably do more for keeping order than the official guard do. They also count for the effective standing army of the town.

That said, one can easily reduce the criminal element by about 10 (put some of those halflings back into productive society!) and it should be more representive.

Triaxx
2007-01-09, 10:00 PM
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on the 'inbreeding' principle. Assuming a death rate of 30 per year for the first five years for the above ground populations, excepting the elves, The Half-Orcs and Elves are gutted. The Orcs aren't coming back I'm afraid, but the Elves might succeed if you rebuild them from Elf/Human pairs.

Gnomes are in deep trouble, unless they go with the dwarves head straight into the mountains, and maintain a low fatality rate. However, inbreeding isn't going to be a problem. Split them into five seperate 'villages' with standard commerce between caves, and you'll keep the blood mostly clear. Basically village A and C have lots of relatives, but are mostly unrelated to B,D, and E. As long as they keep good records, it's not too much of a problem.

Dwarves and Elves are fine, though you might tend to see some very hard eugenics in the first few generations.

Halflings have no problems whatsoever, because they're also indigenous. This could lead to some very 'adult' quests.

Halfing Female Seeks Mate, Adventurer's wanted.

Human's... Tippy's idea's sound like a neo-facist's wet dream. Assuming the human population is totally viable, the problems occur in the eschewing of numbers. It's impossible to guarantee an exact average of male/female children. And hard eugenics are likely to cut numbers severly.

Again inbreeding is not a problem, but the dissidents are the major trouble spot. Sentences should include deep border assignments, to spots likely to get them killed in the line of duty. Sorcerors are not likely to be straight bred to Sorcerors. Instead you want very prolific male sorcerors to increase the numbers and chances that you'll get more sorcerors. Those who aren't natural Sorcerors will tend towards magic, be it Druidic, Clerical, or Arcane.

Fighter classes will also tend to breed true, so you'll end up with two distinct classes of characters of humans. One beefy and brawny, and one very intelligent and wise. Either way the use of magic will vastly improve the survival odds over the course of time. Clerical and Druidic spells and abilities will cut the disease related deaths, and Arcane magic will help keep the uncivilized halflings in check as well as the occasions when the Dino's come out to play.

Depending on how your scenario plays out, you might be able to restore Half-Orcs to your world, if they're considered close enough relations to Hobgoblins for a version to exist, but far enough that the Halflings felt some kinship and didn't kill them with the overlords. Your best bet is to locate your city on a river delta. Run bridges across which serve the purpose of transporting goods from the outlying villages, and as defensive points. Halfling's attacking? Cross the bridge, and pull it up after you. We'll either fill them with arrows, or wait them out. If they start across, we'll get the wizards to flood the river and let them float out to sea. Same for Dinos. The death rate in the outlying villages will be high, probably around that aforementioned 30. In city you'll have a lower rate of around 15-20. Out posts will only have a handful, but they'll be trained fighters, so the death rate is different.

Emperor Tippy
2007-01-09, 11:06 PM
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on the 'inbreeding' principle.
What part? That the population is to small to be able to really avoid it without extreme measures in all cases except the human, elven, and maybe the dwarven populations? The Elves and dwarves have long life going for them and the elves prolly have a higher than normal concentration of casters which would solve a lot of their problems.

Assuming a death rate of 30 per year for the first five years for the above ground populations, excepting the elves, The Half-Orcs and Elves are gutted. The Orcs aren't coming back I'm afraid, but the Elves might succeed if you rebuild them from Elf/Human pairs.
If the half-orcs aren't eliminated out right by the other races just as a general measure. And I think your mortality figures are a bit high just based on percentage.

Gnomes are in deep trouble, unless they go with the dwarves head straight into the mountains, and maintain a low fatality rate. However, inbreeding isn't going to be a problem. Split them into five seperate 'villages' with standard commerce between caves, and you'll keep the blood mostly clear. Basically village A and C have lots of relatives, but are mostly unrelated to B,D, and E. As long as they keep good records, it's not too much of a problem.
An initial population of 250 is just to small. Not enough genetic diversity. To build it up you have to greatly extend how long those original 250 can survive and continue to reproduce. Assume 125 males and 125 females. Next will will assume that 75% are within the reproductive age range and that no gnome under 40 (their age of maturity) came along. You have 94 males and 94 females as your breeding population. Gnomes can reproduce for 60 years (from 40 to 100). According to Races of Stone gnome children occur every 5-10 years. We will be generous and say its 1 child every 5 years. We will even say that every one of those 94 couples is 40 years old. That is 12 children apiece over 60 years, at most. Assuming that half the children die before reproducing you get 564 children when the original population becomes infertile. If we go with 1 person can support 2 dependents and count the wife as .25 dependents (when she can't produce due to the children) those 564 children would require 590 producers. The population can't support the maximum possible level of population growth.

Out of 50 gnomes 23 would have to be producers (and this is with a generous figure of 2 dependents per producer). Those 250 gnomes could support 111 children. Assuming that the gnome producers can support them selves and their dependents until they reach old age (150 years) at which point they become dependents. Those 111 children will have to support their parents 70 years after reaching adult hood, along with their own children. That is 52 producers with over 200 dependents. It can't be done.

To get around these problems you keep most of the population in stasis and use the 25% that is to old to breed to set up the town and fields. That is 62 gnomes. They spend the next 25 years setting everything up and then go into stasis to be replaced with 25 breeding couples. Each couple has 1 kid per awake cycle. The kids are raised by the village and every 10 years half the population goes back into stasis. The kids stay awake until they are 40 when they are put into stasis. Out of the original 94 breeding couples you get your 564 40 year old gnomes. The parents (generation 0) then go into stasis for a long time. We will assume that of the 564 gnomes of generation 1, 500 survive to reproduce. That is 250 breeding couples and when they get to old you will have generation 2 with 1,000 gnome children. Generation 3 is 4,000 and generation 5 is 8,000. At generation 6 you have say 15,000 adults of 40 years of age. Your population is now large enough that the extreme measures aren't needed any more and the relatives in stasis can be slowly awakened and allowed to live out their lives. With them caring for the children, both males and females become producers and your population can steadily grow.

To reach generation 6 requires 420 years at the minimum and more likely 450-500.

So your right, even if the population is large enough to avoid inbreeding it can't support the dependents necessary to avoid it at the start.

Dwarves and Elves are fine, though you might tend to see some very hard eugenics in the first few generations.
Yep. Agreed here fully.

Halflings have no problems whatsoever, because they're also indigenous. This could lead to some very 'adult' quests.
Yeah. I forgot that they weren't transplanted with the rest.

Human's... Tippy's idea's sound like a neo-facist's wet dream. Assuming the human population is totally viable, the problems occur in the eschewing of numbers. It's impossible to guarantee an exact average of male/female children. And hard eugenics are likely to cut numbers severly.
I got distracted and was wondering what you could do with a relatively small population in extreme conditions.

Again inbreeding is not a problem, but the dissidents are the major trouble spot. Sentences should include deep border assignments, to spots likely to get them killed in the line of duty.
Inbreeding could be a very large problem. Humans don't live long enough to have children with their 4th generation descendants like the elves can to avoid it. For example, A and a have a kid, A1. B and b have a kid, B1. A1 and B1 have kid AB. After about 5 generations the genetic similarities are small enough to avoid inbreeding problems. Due to their life spans elf A can breed with AB5 and so can elf B. Humans can't breed that many generations apart, the don't live long enough.

Sorcerors are not likely to be straight bred to Sorcerors. Instead you want very prolific male sorcerors to increase the numbers and chances that you'll get more sorcerors. Those who aren't natural Sorcerors will tend towards magic, be it Druidic, Clerical, or Arcane.
Depends if it is recessive or dominant traits. Say sorcerery is linked to 2 genes, A and B. The following result in sorcerers; aabb and aaBb. aabb bred with another aabb will always produce a sorcerer while aaBb will only sometimes produce a sorcerer.

Fighter classes will also tend to breed true, so you'll end up with two distinct classes of characters of humans. One beefy and brawny, and one very intelligent and wise. Either way the use of magic will vastly improve the survival odds over the course of time. Clerical and Druidic spells and abilities will cut the disease related deaths, and Arcane magic will help keep the uncivilized halflings in check as well as the occasions when the Dino's come out to play.
Yeah, magic would become very popular but who said fighters would? Were creatures breed natural were creatures (at least if 2 were's breed). A single weretiger infects all 1500 humans (its a good idea anyway as it gives them abilities that will help them survive). Every human from that point on would be a natural weretiger. And weretigers beat fighters in almost all cases. Especially if they have magic.

Say, I just got an idea for a game.

Iituem
2007-01-10, 04:34 AM
You might get a preponderance of strength in human lines from natural selection, but it will be in the peasants, not the warriors.

Regarding the gnomish issue of dependents, you can support that many dependents, provided you have an unholy number of mushrooms farmers. >_<

Humanity-wise... potentially, we could fudge the numbers to allow for lots of births. If we work our six-odd clerics and acolytes to death casting gleaner-like spells to ease birth, ensure viable pregnancies and so on, we can ensure a relatively high rate of survival in the infant population (if you survive the first year, you'll probably survive the next fifty). The trick here will lie in food, so expect rapid expansion and deforestation to meet requirements - a lot of people will need to become farmers.

Triaxx
2007-01-10, 08:30 AM
Tippy:You're discounting that the Dwarves and Gnomes are sharing a cave system, and are not completely cut off from outside contact. So the support system is altered, and at young ages, the gnome children begin to assist the adults, increasing the production. Assuming gnomish engineering, the efficiency increases further, providing them more support for children than is necessary. This can be augmented or adjusted by growing in conjunction with the Dwarves.

Where is your information on inbreeding coming from? If you add fresh blood into the mixture, you have more than sufficient breeding population, assuming you have some genetic diversity right away, instead of having one man and 1499 members of his extended family. Even five seperate groups of humans is quite sufficient to ensure diversity. A1 and B1 needn't breed directly with each other, but could breed with C, or d. Either of those would promote genetic diversity.

With that method of breeding, you'll pollute the sorceror line in less than three generations. You need diversity there, because even if you produce AaBb, that AaBb can potentially breed back and produce aaBb, or aabb.

While you're more likely to come up with WereRaptors, I see your point. However, what I'm talking about is the body style, not necessarily the class. A powerful fighter can hew through his opponents while the Sorceror is chanting to keep slinging spells. While a sorceror can decimate an opposing group with powerful spells, he will eventually run out and be in serious trouble. A fighter can keep going until he's fatigued.

Iituem:But from the peasants come the warriors. That's the typical way to rise in the ranks from peasant to noble.

As was mentioned, a coastal or river city will solve large parts of the food supply problem. Supplemented with dino meat, and vegetables, food is the least of the problems facing the inhabitants.

Emperor Tippy
2007-01-10, 09:41 AM
Tippy:You're discounting that the Dwarves and Gnomes are sharing a cave system, and are not completely cut off from outside contact.
Yes, but everyone else is in the same position that the gnomes are it. And if the dwarves even have to support 1 gnome per 3 dwarves both groups get screwed.

So the support system is altered, and at young ages, the gnome children begin to assist the adults, increasing the production.
The support system isn't changed enough to matter and the children helping out is already taken into account in the number of dependents that can be supported.

Assuming gnomish engineering, the efficiency increases further, providing them more support for children than is necessary.
They have no infrastructure. An excellent example of this situation is in the Worthing Saga by Orson Scott Card.

This can be augmented or adjusted by growing in conjunction with the Dwarves.
Not really. The dwarves are in the same situation as the gnomes except they have better numbers.

Where is your information on inbreeding coming from? If you add fresh blood into the mixture, you have more than sufficient breeding population, assuming you have some genetic diversity right away, instead of having one man and 1499 members of his extended family. Even five seperate groups of humans is quite sufficient to ensure diversity. A1 and B1 needn't breed directly with each other, but could breed with C, or d. Either of those would promote genetic diversity.
Simple genetics. Even in separate groups it is not a large enough population to avoid inbreeding. The rule of thumb is 4% genetic similarity between the parents is to much. That means that you need at least 5 generations separating the common ancestor.

With that method of breeding, you'll pollute the sorceror line in less than three generations. You need diversity there, because even if you produce AaBb, that AaBb can potentially breed back and produce aaBb, or aabb.Perhaps. Depends on the number of sorcerers in the starting population. But yes it would have to be a much more complex breeding program than what I have layed out here.

While you're more likely to come up with WereRaptors, I see your point. However, what I'm talking about is the body style, not necessarily the class. A powerful fighter can hew through his opponents while the Sorceror is chanting to keep slinging spells. While a sorceror can decimate an opposing group with powerful spells, he will eventually run out and be in serious trouble. A fighter can keep going until he's fatigued.
The sorcerer gets tired or runs out of spells so he takes a standard action and becomes a wereraptor or a weredirebat and lays the smack down on the enemy.

kkortekaas
2007-01-10, 10:30 AM
I'm going under the assumption that all the demographics are made up of many different family units, and am also assuming that the races with low initial populations (i.e. Half-Elves & Half-Orcs) will interbreed with the humans.

I also figure that the Gnomes will be working very closely with the Dwarves to essentially place they're city at a united 750 citizens and that interbreeding will be countered by the use of magic (arcane & clerical) as well as good planning.

I've roughed out a map and once I digitize it I'll post it.

Emperor Tippy
2007-01-10, 11:43 AM
I'm going under the assumption that all the demographics are made up of many different family units,
Ok. Doesn't change much.

and am also assuming that the races with low initial populations (i.e. Half-Elves & Half-Orcs) will interbreed with the humans.
But they become human after a couple of generations. Half-Elf has a quarter elf who has an eighth elf who has a sixteenth elf, etc. And who willingly breeds with Half-Orc's?

I also figure that the Gnomes will be working very closely with the Dwarves to essentially place they're city at a united 750 citizens and that interbreeding will be countered by the use of magic (arcane & clerical) as well as good planning.
See. You should have said such things in the beginning. And even together its very unlikely that they would be able to survive and rebuild society.

Triaxx
2007-01-10, 02:01 PM
Infrastructure is only problematic if you've never had one before. Dwarven metal working, even in a low metal enviroment such as this, combined with Gnomish engineering can have an infrastructure restored without trouble.

Food supply is solved with trade from the humans. Fishing should provide a surplus, which can be traded for the stone the Dwarves are bound to be harvesting while seeking minerals, or enlarging their own environs. If the cave entrance is located near the upper end of the river, then they can travel in relative safety to and from the human settlement.

The half-elves are also a viable source of alternate genetic material, because at least half of the material is not human, and completely discounted for the purpose. As I said, Half-Orcs are probably gone already, though the same qualities that make them undesirable as breeding partners makes them the most adaptable to the harsh surroundings.

kkortekaas
2007-01-10, 02:16 PM
Knowning what I would like to go on and seeing the directions the rest of you are taking this are awesome. I'll run down what has happened in the change of geography.

1 capitol (large village in all honesty) has about 800 people in it
supported by 2 feeder villages of
Village A has 200 ( fishing and farming)
Village B has 150 people (farming)

Outpost on the edge of the jungle (harvests lumber and sends it down river to capitol) 400 people
supported by 2 feeder villages
Village C has 200 People (farming)
Village D has 50 people (newly founded)

Oh, Dwarves & Gnomes setup shop about a half-day from the outpost and are merrily chugging along mining, smelting and crafting as well as feasting on large amounts of mushrooms supplemented by grains / vegetables / fish traded from the humans

I'm assuming that through tricks picked up by the native halflings, druidic magic, arcane magic, and clerical magic that any deficet of food is made up in this manner. Does this seem plausible?

Triaxx
2007-01-10, 05:52 PM
Sounds right to me.

Emperor Tippy
2007-01-10, 06:25 PM
Infrastructure is only problematic if you've never had one before.
Not true. Producing the infrastructure is almost impossible. Food is what you need. You need almost all of your population producing food to survive and you also need a minimum number of people to create the infrastructure. You don't have the numbers to do both. Even with the dwarves and gnomes together. And their is no one to trade with. The humans are in the same position as you are.

Dwarven metal working, even in a low metal enviroment such as this, combined with Gnomish engineering can have an infrastructure restored without trouble.
Not really. It requires man power that does not exist. Food comes first.

Food supply is solved with trade from the humans.
Why exactly are the humans trading food? They need it to grow and they have their own metalworkers and such.

Fishing should provide a surplus, which can be traded for the stone the Dwarves are bound to be harvesting while seeking minerals, or enlarging their own environs.
What do the humans need stone for? It takes a very long time to build with stone unless you have armies of people (10 thousand plus) doing nothing but building. The great pyramids took 20 years or more to build and the Pharos were devoting most of their resources to the project.

If the cave entrance is located near the upper end of the river, then they can travel in relative safety to and from the human settlement.
Depends on what occupies the river and how are they getting the boats? Boats take time to make.

The half-elves are also a viable source of alternate genetic material, because at least half of the material is not human, and completely discounted for the purpose. As I said, Half-Orcs are probably gone already, though the same qualities that make them undesirable as breeding partners makes them the most adaptable to the harsh surroundings.

I never said that the humans would have the inbreeding problems. Their population is large enough (barely) to avoid it.

1 capitol (large village in all honesty) has about 800 people in it
supported by 2 feeder villages of
Village A has 200 ( fishing and farming)
Village B has 150 people (farming)
350 people are supporting 1150 people? That means each producer has 3.28 people. Or 30% of your population is feeding all of the population. That is stretching it. I could seed maybe 50% supporting the rest but even that is really pushing it.

Outpost on the edge of the jungle (harvests lumber and sends it down river to capitol) 400 people
supported by 2 feeder villages
Village C has 200 People (farming)
Village D has 50 people (newly founded)
Same as above.

Oh, Dwarves & Gnomes setup shop about a half-day from the outpost and are merrily chugging along mining, smelting and crafting as well as feasting on large amounts of mushrooms supplemented by grains / vegetables / fish traded from the humans
Where are the humans getting a surplus to trade? On your numbers it is practically impossible for it to occur.

I'm assuming that through tricks picked up by the native halflings, druidic magic, arcane magic, and clerical magic that any deficet of food is made up in this manner. Does this seem plausible?

Not unless you have almost 10% of your population (or more) as casters. And pretty high level casters at that.

Middle age Europe had 90% of its population as farmers and still had famines. They had also been around for the past 500+ years in those locations.

You situation is the peoples world is being destroyed around them and they flee through a rift with pretty much what they can carry on their backs. Yet you expect an industrial age rate of food production. With a large amount of magic you can hit maybe 50% of the population as food producers (but that is stretching it). And a harsh winter or 2 could cause lots of problems. Enough casters/magic could solve these problems but it really does require 10%+ of your population as pretty high level casters. For reference in most D&D games casters make up 1% of the population at most.

Iituem
2007-01-10, 07:25 PM
Hokay. Quite a few points.

Assuming you use the mushroom farming model laid out above (which has a return similar to fishing), food is essentially taken care of for the dwarven and gnomish population. The returns from that are ridiculously high (each farmer supports a dependent and a non-producer, and both men and women can work equally well, unlike grain farming), so the real reason the dwarves are trading for human food is flavour - eating nothing but mushrooms and mushroom-based products all day is boring. Only one third of the dwarven/gnomish population needs to be producing food this way, with one third as urban population (half of whom can devote themselves to crafts).

Mycology is a very effective method of producing food because of the many harvest cycles, independence of weather and high returns (using mostly wood and decaying organic matter as fuel). It also requires a high degree of understanding, hence why only the dwarves and gnomes have it (being a cultural secret of sorts). The dwarves and gnomes -can- produce food at industrial rates because of the sort of food they are producing, resulting in a great deal of free populace for producing infrastructure.

The humans, on the other hand, are not so lucky. For the most part, they are forced to expend most of their energy farming (for the inland villages), where the number of craftspeople in the entire countryside barely reaches two digits, with most of the crafting populace in the central human town (where the bountiful supplies of fish enable more free time, though not as much as the dwarves because the working producers can only really be male due to the physical strength required for fishing and grain farming alike).

The humans will trade food because, although the dwarves have an abundance of food, it is ridiculously bland. They pay good money for human foods and particularly spices (which the elves probably can find on their islands and trade to the humans anyway), and the humans take advantage of this by trading for dwarven and gnomish craftwork (because they lack the infrastructure that the dwarves and gnomes can afford). The humans do not have -much- of a surplus, but there is enough for them to trade with.

The capital of 800 people would not be supported solely (or even significantly) by the two feeder villages. Indeed, most of that population would probably be fishermen, farmers and dependents on their own. However, surplus from the feeder villages may be traded to the town for material goods and produce will flow there anyhow in the form of taxation. I would wager that the status of 'feeder' villages comes more from taxation than food supply.

As for stone, if you are building houses with nothing but stone, then yes it takes forever and large numbers of people. However, stone is still an important aspect of architecture even with wooden houses because you can use stone to provide adequate foundations (which are bloody hard to produce otherwise). I challenge you also to make an oven out of wood (although granted kilned mud bricks would also provide a good material for ovens, but you need to make the kiln in the first place).

River boats can be made in a matter of months. They have had five years to produce them.

Yes, we've had to use a little black boxing to provide for the food situation of the dwarves and gnomes (technically speaking, it's scientifically accurate and possible, rather than magic), giving them an underground food source rather than having to farm grain on the surface, but overall it helps to take care of some of the food issues significantly.

Triaxx
2007-01-10, 08:24 PM
Building ships takes time. Building boats doesn't take nearly as much. Rafts aren't sea worthy, but you can go just a few hundred yards out, and drop nets to haul up fish. And assuming that the Elves built ships to sail to their islands, we have the technology to build ships.

Stone is important not for building everything out of, but you'll probably want cartloads for paving, and foundations both for buildings and your outer defensive walls. Building docks also needs stone to anchor it into the mud.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-10, 08:44 PM
And post #15 is the winner! Congrats to Iituem for the most detailed and well thought-out post I've yet seen in this entire board.

I must disagree with you all on one note, though. I don't think any one race is more likely to survive in this situation than any other based on natural life span. Races with longer life spans also physically mature at a later age, so the fact that the offspring will be dependents for a longer time balances out their extra working years, and unless the population kills off anyone who has grown beyond working age, there will be plenty of dependents who will stick around for a long time in their later life as well. There are plenty of other factors which would contribute to the success of each race, and Iituem went into detailed explanations of most of them, but I think life span isn't one.

Emperor Tippy
2007-01-10, 09:13 PM
Read RoW. Elves are physically mature at 20.

kkortekaas
2007-01-10, 09:41 PM
We have to consider as well, that most of this is for the DMs benefity (me),

As long as the population has 'just' enough of a surplus to feed the population with a little bit left over, everything should be okay. My players arn't going to care (typically) unless I introduce the food issue as a plot line.

I should have the map I created digitized and uploaded sometime tommorow at which point I invite you all to continue discussion.

As an additional point, I imagine that hunting parties that manage to take down say, a large herbevor dinosaur would net a hefty amount of food, and if we assume that all the settlements regardless of size occasionally bag a big dino, that would be more then enough to supplement the food even further.

Triaxx
2007-01-10, 09:53 PM
Let's not forget something here. Most wizards can create Golems, which can be used to supplement the work forces. Moving stone and felling timber is suddenly much less of a problem. Need to plow a field? Send the Golems out and you can plow it with just the Golems under direction of a single farmer.

On the other side, most farming is not a rapid operation. Crops require around three months to mature, so you'll end up eating a lot of supplemental foods, including the mushrooms mentioned, which can be grown in a city as easily as in a cave by planting them in warm, wet attics.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-01-10, 11:43 PM
Also, if there's any supply of onyx, anywhere (dwarves), low to mid-level casters can animate undead, which can support more people than living farmers (although they're admittedly just brute labor; they need a farmer overseeing them), since they don't need to eat. A mule pulling a plow eats more food than a human, IIRC, but a skeleton mule (or dino) eats nothing; likewise, a human supervisor with three human/(more likely) goblinoid skeletons planting can plant three times as fast for the same amount of food (actually a bit less, since they're expending less energy as they aren't digging themselves). You do, though, need the resources to distribute Oil of Animate Dead, and a supply of skeletons to the masses.

That's not taking into account that this is distasteful, but if you need it to survive (or even think you need it to survive), people will do anything.

Undead are more likely than golems, since golems are ridiculously expensive and take a high-level mage. Really, they'd probably only have a handful of golems that were made on the new world, with most golems having been brought through by their creators.

As for the breeding issue, I've read that (first) cousin marriages were 1) actually not that uncommon, and 2) unless you've got a deletrious recessive, not dangerous, so you don't really need five generations diversity. Remember that cheetahs have been reduced to a single breeding pair several times over their history. That doesn't mean that more outbreeding isn't a good idea, though.

Also, I'd imagine that there would a high proportion of PC-classed characters, since this is a frontier, and therefore dangerous, so even people with no PC class before pick one up. Likewise, high-level characters will take over government, either by force or by trade (You do what I say, and I'll protect you), or even have it thrust upon them (they always protect this community from outside threats, so they come to them for advice on everything else and obey their every word). The Leadership feat would become quite common. Because of this, you'd have a lot of adventurers grabbing titles like "King," "Baron," "Shogun," and so on, or having titles like "Wizard-Protector" thrust upon them, enforcing their own personal fiefs as far as they can conquer, getting the allegiance of or driving off (or even killing) neighboring heroes. I'd reccomend reading the Dungeonomicon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=659653), especially the section of the second post titled "Temporal Authority in D&D;" that applies here even more than it does in the normal game, since there is no pre-existing social structure. Since these new "kings," though, will be marrying off their non-adventuring children to other adventurers as quickly as they can, though, the realms should all be united in a few generations.

Note, though, that warfare will be limited; the common outside enemy (the goblinoids), the open frontier, and the fact that heroes are orders of magnitude more powerful than everyone else changes the internal war. If two heroes have a dispute, they'll duel it out, most likely, since they can slaughter eachothers' armies easily (and they need their people farming, anyhow). Additionally, because there's a common enemy, the heroes have something to unite against, and, as there is a frontier and nobody has lived here more than a generation, no hero has a homeland to be attached to, so a hero who loses their realm to another can move to the frontier and push outward.

If you want a strong social structure in this area, some powerful adventuring type from before the exodus should have forced the tribes into a degree of unity. Nonetheless, they'll need to keep all of the adventurers just under their level in check and loyal (so that they won't be surpassed by anyone who doesn't like them, or who wants to overthrow them, until they've been surpassed by someone loyal to them), and each "tier" of adventurers will have a smaller area where they have to manage the adventurers beneath them to defend their position.

For construction, a 9th-level wizard can cast Wall of Stone, and have a decent stone wall (or road) up in seconds, or a building up in a few days. A Fabricate spell would make that a lot more useful, too. There won't be many, sure, until the danger level of the area kicks in and everyone gains some levels, but once you have a few of them, anything important to the adventurers gets built quick.

Regardless, I'd solve the issue of getting to the first problem first, and that would be ensuring the food supply, and pushing the borders outward, or at least ensuring that they don't contract, before worrying about a few generations down the line.

Iituem
2007-01-11, 07:43 AM
Ergh... there's a reason magic isn't used by the masses. It's prohibitively expensive compared to mundane means. It generally is far cheaper to do something mundanely than by magic (although magic may well get it done a lot faster, and can do some things mundane equipment won't be able to). 50gp is the wages for seven labourers for seven weeks (or one labourer for most of a year). You generally do better to put that sort of money into just using labourers (even though they eat food) than trying to raise undead to do the work (undead which incidentally are more susceptible to accidental damage if nobody is paying attention and are quite costly to replace).

Golems, similarly, take ridiculous amounts of money and resources to produce. Now, if the wizards who led the expedition were smart enough to bring a couple -with- them, then they will have a fair bit of help when it comes to logging and such (cue vision of enormous stone golem dragging a huge cart full of lumber) but probably still be secondary to draught animals when it comes to ploughing fields.

As for the old outliving their usefulness... that won't be a problem. This is a high danger environment, with plenty of opportunity for accidents or capture by savages/wild beasts. If an old peasant falls and breaks a leg, that's him done in (magical healing is too expensive). Given the circumstances, there won't be as much of a willingness to support the elderly as in the modern day. Elderly in the cities may have a better standing if they are practitioners of a learned profession (scribes, tailors, wizards etc) who do not need a great deal of physical strength, because they can keep working for much longer. Nevertheless, most people will die off when they hit Venerable, or just before.

Triaxx
2007-01-11, 12:37 PM
Prices are set by the economy though. Since this is a new world, there isn't really much economy yet, so the costs of spell components either differ, or are completely non-existant, because no one is looking for them, except the wizards.

The components of certain spells, such as the mentioned Onyx Gem would be merely a matter of acquiring them, and with Dwarves mining stone, they could be on the lookout for suitable Golem materials. The prices could be adjusted to those suitable for the world's coinage. Being a low metal enviroment, hard coinage is not likely, but a barter of food worth the same for the material's is simple enough.

kkortekaas
2007-01-11, 12:45 PM
Keep in mind that the members of the exodus also brought everything including the kitchen sink. They knew that no additional supplies would be coming. Ever. So I picture a huge caravan packed to the gills with tools, seed stock, livestock, spell compenents, holy artifacts etc.

Iituem
2007-01-11, 12:47 PM
The time and man/wizardpower needed to construct them will still be an issue. If there are golems, there won't be many, and you can expect heavy resistance from the rural population at the use of undead to do ploughing. Simply put - where are we getting the corpses from? Even with bags over their heads, most farmers are going to have that quiet fear that it's their grandpa under that sack, reanimated by unholy forces. You're risking a peasant rebellion on grounds of sheer unease, particularly if the church gets involved.

Mind you. Use of gleaners in the population might help. Since your average gleaner is also a working producer anyhow, you can easily slip them into the farming population to help sow seeds, take care of basic growth, childbirth, fertility and even count as an extra hand through use of the farmhand spell.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-01-11, 01:14 PM
For sources of undead labor, I was thinking Goblinoids would be more likely than humans; they're local and they're quite likely to be the enemy. Additionally, even if a farmer doesn't want skeleton goblinoids doing their planting, they can still benefit from skeletal draft animals. Yes, the onyx to animate them is expensive, but it's a different resource than food; it carries lighter, and it comes up in mining incidentally, wheras food is the purpose of hard farming.

Golems take a lot more resources than undead, and, I'll admit, undead are no slackers in resource requirements themselves; the only reason to use them is to change your draft animals' resource requirement from food to onyx, if you have a shortage of the former (and you do), and a surplus of the latter (and you might). They probably wouldn't be in use everywhere, but an occasional farmer might be plowing his fields with a deinonychus skeleton instead of a mule (although the Oil of Animate Dead needed for that takes a lot of money; the oil has a market price of 850 GP, and a materials cost of 475 GP and 30 EXP, so you'd be relying on the charity (or drive to condemn as many souls to the lower planes as possible) of an evil cleric), and this might drive off the Plant Growth druids, making it even more uncommon. Still, if the adventurers divide up their area, the necromancers would get some areas with skele-farmers, and the druids get others with Plant Growth.

Back on the point of golems, though, a stone golem would take just as much mining for the special stones and the ritual components to animate it, as it did on the other side, and, until the dwarves are settled in, there just won't be the resources for any.

Triaxx
2007-01-11, 09:34 PM
I was thinking about that. It's sounding like we need some specialized Golems that don't last as long, but aren't as expensive to construct. I was thinking Plant Golems. Something the Druid can whip up out of the underbrush. Unfortunately, I'm not any good at making creatures.

kkortekaas
2007-01-11, 09:44 PM
Your right that is pretty interesting....anyone want to take a shot at it? Underbrush Golem?

Question, could summoned earth elementals also factor in with the helping?

Triaxx
2007-01-12, 06:54 AM
Perhaps summoned Nymph's? They tend to have a way with plants, and probably wouldn't take much payment... It would make a good quest, to go and find Nymphs to help with planting.

Iituem
2007-01-12, 12:48 PM
Loamsmithed

Medium-Sized Construct
Hit Dice: 4d10+20 (40)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20ft (can't run)
AC: 10 (0 armour, 0 dex)
BAB/Grapple: +3
Attack: slam +9 melee (1d10+6)
Full Attack: 2 slams +9 melee (1d10+6)
Space/Reach: 5ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Magic Vulnerability, Poor Construction, Berserk
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +1, Will -4
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 10, Con -, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1.
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organisation: Solitary or group (1d4 loamsmithed + 1 loamsmithed leader)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral

This 6-foot being appears to be composed entirely of clay, soil and loam, cobbled together into a haphazardly humanoid shape. Someone has affixed a plough to it by means of a yoke on its shoulders and a bag of what appear to be seeds has been tied by a belt to its waist.

These constructs are usually created at short notice in times of need or made to order for rich, lazy farmers unwilling to plough their own fields. They work tirelessly at all hours of the day (though not during heavy rain) and can carry out basic tasks such as ploughing, planting, watering and reaping. In a pinch they can be called upon to defend the farm, but are generally inferior soldiers. Treated with care and given regular supplements of loam, these can provide more than three times the output of a farmhand and never eat any of the food.

Construct Traits: Loamsmithed are immune to all mind-affecting effecs, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects and necromancy effects. They cannot be healed damage on their own. Repairing costs 50gp per hit point in arcane components and loam. They are not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion and energy drain.

Magic Vulnerability: Unlike normal constructs, the loamsmithed are fully vulnerable to most forms of magic, with some important inclusions and exceptions:
Properly Grounded: The loamsmithed are immune to electrical effects.
Sonic Vulnerability: The loamsmithed are not well constructed, being particularly vulnerable to sonic attacks that shake apart their structure. They take double damage from sonic effects.

Poor Construction: The loamsmithed have been put together on short notice and are not meant to serve for all eternity. If they do not receive periodic attention and have fresh loam placed on them at least once every seventy-two hours (Craft [sculpture] or Profession [digger] check, DC 5) they will begin to fall apart, losing 1 STR permanently for every 24 hours without fresh loam. This ability damage cannot be repaired by any means.

In addition, the loamsmithed are particularly vulnerable to running water. If caught in a thunderstorm or hurricane, the loamsmithed will lose a third of its hitpoints for each full minute it is trapped in the storm, being destroyed at the end of the third minute. If it is caught in heavy running water (such as a river, or during a flood) it will instead lose a third of its hitpoints each round, being destroyed at the end of the third round.

Berserk: The loamsmithed are not meant for combat, so the binding spells containing the spirit within are not as strong as in normal golems. Each round it takes part in combat, there is a 10% cumulative chance that it will go berserk and attack the nearest creature or object, continuing until it or everything it can see has been destroyed. There are no known means of bringing it out of this state.

Construction: The upside of all of this shoddy workmanship is that the golem is relatively cheap to construct. The body takes a Craft (sculpture) check (DC 20) to produce and costs 40gp, scrabbled together from loam, dirt and other soft materials. It takes one week to complete the golem's body and 2 days to complete the rituals.

CL 9th, Craft Construct, animate objects, price 1190gp. Cost to create: 595gp + 48xp.

As loamsmithed, with the following spell-like abilities:

Aura of Health: The spell purify plants and animals is in continuous effect, taking the form of an aura affecting everything within a 5ft radius of the loamsmithed.

Create Water: As the spell, at will. The loamsmithed leader can be given orders to produce water as required to water plants or soil in need of watering.

These result in a market price increase of the loamsmithed leader to 4190gp, costing 2095gp + 168xp to create. Caster must have knowledge of the spells purify plants and animals and create water.

kkortekaas
2007-01-12, 05:56 PM
nice man, that's pretty swank

Triaxx
2007-01-12, 06:54 PM
Fantastic. Just the sort of I was envisioning. The Loamsmith leader would definitely be worth the extra GP if you had large numbers of meat animals. Assign it to feed them, so each gets the benefits of the aura. I like it.

Iituem
2007-01-12, 08:01 PM
That and it would automatically affect plants it was watering, so if you had it tend for the occasional field every so often, that's a +2 to the entire crop.

kkortekaas
2007-01-18, 07:58 AM
Just a straight scan of what I was thinking for village distribution. it's not to scale, still working on digitizing it....

[img=http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3677/savagecoast001za8.th.jpg] (http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=savagecoast001za8.jpg)

Triaxx
2007-01-18, 08:33 AM
Hmm... according to that, New Sanctuary is sitting pretty. Food isn't a problem even if all you have are boats, because you can cast nets into the river.

kkortekaas
2007-01-18, 11:08 AM
So it's looking alright at the moment?

Triaxx
2007-01-18, 09:39 PM
Fine by me. What do the elven settlements look like?

kkortekaas
2007-01-19, 07:57 AM
I wasn't sure how I was setting them up, but as they occupy the largish island off the coast (which the PC's don't have access too at the moment) I figured I'd develop it when the time came.

I figure that they'll be seperated along clan lines, so smallish independant villages scattered throughout the island.

Anyone have additional thoughts on this matter?

Iituem
2007-01-19, 06:05 PM
Ah, figured the elves would be on the archipelago directly west of New Sanctuary.

Hmm. Given your distribution of villages (assuming each village has their own small zone of control of maybe 3 miles of farmland in all directions), the villages are remarkably spread out. However, this actually works because the river allows for very quick transportation of goods and people. Bear in mind that as rivers flow to the coast it will be quicker to get goods, people and messages to the capital than it will out of it (although probably as fast as a good road system would allow on the way up).

You've gone with 6 mile distant villages from the main towns (New Sanctuary and Fort Last) to act as suppliers, which works nicely. This is within trade times. Fort Last is 32 miles from New Sanctuary, making it effectively a separate state (though probably obligated to the sovereignty of New Sanctuary) and so will be nicely set up as a source of protection for the surrounding villages (go go gadget fortress, as it were). It should be possible to send non-magical messages to New Sanctuary from Fort Last within just over half a day (via keelboat downstream), but travelling upstream by messenger horse will take a full day, travelling upstream with goods (by wagon) will take 2 days and marching upstream with an armed force will also take 2 days.

Given the 2 day travel, why not put a small farm that doubles up as a tavern between Dalewood and Stonebridge (say at the 10 mile mark)? Travellers will need to stop somewhere for the night and even messengers will want to change horses. If the ruling bodies are smart, they will probably have left a small (and I mean small, maybe 4 men at most) guard post and some stables there so that messengers can change horses and to help trade. Besides all of that, it's a good place for some adventure hooks.

kkortekaas
2007-01-20, 09:14 PM
Anyone want to lend their creative juices to fleshing out the elven lands? the structure of the clan network or anything? I'm more then willing to accept the assistance.

Wayril
2007-01-20, 09:27 PM
Although I haven't had problems with density myself, I usually flip into the book Kingdoms of Kalamar for insight. It's very useful, and a lot of the time something about a city will trigger a whole big plot chain, which makes the PCs happy when they figure it out. Not to mention since it's just a twist in the plot, the PCs can enjoy accomplishing something, or creatively escaping something, without ruining your whole plot line since it's just a side quest.

Actually I have a tendency of starting out with a fairly straightforward idea, then I throw in a bunch of plot twists, bring back things from old adventured, and kindof tie everything together. So basically, all I know in any adventure I DM is what's going on in the present. The future is up to how the present plays out.

The downside is this can cause lapses (which I honestly have never had, but f I did), but it's just as easy to tell make the PCs think they were decieved, twisting the plot yet again.

Oh I think I went a bit off topic. Basically I mean to say that kingdoms of kalamar is a very helpful book for creating and introducing random cities really quickly. Also it includes the populations of the cities and what type of population, so you can find a skeleton for whatever city you have in mind.

Matthew
2007-01-22, 05:11 PM
I would tend to agree. A lot of the Kingdoms of Kalamar stuff is well put together and useful.