Knight/Blackguard

[BeholdenCaulf]

Hey GITP, long time reader, first time poster

I'm currently running a campaign where one of my PCs has just taken a dip in Knight (Fighter 9/Knight 1)

He really gets off on the whole code of honour thing and that there are also evil knights that could pose a threat to him and end in an epic showdown where the moral codes of both men make it a 1-on-1 etc.

So I made a Fighter 3/Knight 4/Blackguard 4 (he won't be facing him for a while) but here's my question

With the Knight's code stating he can't hit a flat-footed opponent and instead has to ready an attack, could the Knight just have the sneak attack but choose not to use it or would the whole ethos of a Blackguard conflict totally with that of a Knight, even an evil one?

Also, I'm not looking to optimise the NPC as the build is pretty lethal as it is due to some high dice rolls and I don't necessarily want to kill the PC

Thanks :)

[Gwendol]

The Blackguard can totally use the sneak attack in your build, he will just lose Knight's Challenge uses when doing so.

[Red Fel]

Hey GITP, long time reader, first time poster

I'm currently running a campaign where one of my PCs has just taken a dip in Knight (Fighter 9/Knight 1)

He really gets off on the whole code of honour thing and that there are also evil knights that could pose a threat to him and end in an epic showdown where the moral codes of both men make it a 1-on-1 etc.

So I made a Fighter 3/Knight 4/Blackguard 4 (he won't be facing him for a while) but here's my question

With the Knight's code stating he can't hit a flat-footed opponent and instead has to ready an attack, could the Knight just have the sneak attack but choose not to use it or would the whole ethos of a Blackguard conflict totally with that of a Knight, even an evil one?

Also, I'm not looking to optimise the NPC as the build is pretty lethal as it is due to some high dice rolls and I don't necessarily want to kill the PC

Thanks :)

There's a split between fluff and crunch here.

By fluff, the Knight's Code says no striking a flat-footed opponent. By that logic, I would say you cannot use Sneak Attack. This is so regardless of the fact that you're evil. Nothing stops you from playing an honorable, Lawful Evil Blackguard, but the Knight thing stops you from using Sneak Attack.

By crunch, you don't fall just because you use Sneak Attack. You lose one Knight's Challenge, or take penalties. So technically, you could use Sneak Attack, from a mechanical standpoint, if you were willing to burn a daily use of Knight's Challenge on it.

As a side note, and this applies to both the NPC and the PC, never take an odd number of Fighter levels. Always take an even number.

[Big Fau]

IIRC the Knight's CoC specifies that breaking it costs you a daily use of Knight's Challenge. If so, this enemy has very little reason to uphold it as he will likely be encountered no more than once/day at best, and once at worst.

A Blackguard has very little in the way of honor, as implied by their Sneak Attack and willingness to consort with Demons/Devils/Yugoloths.

[OldTrees1]

With the Knight's code stating he can't hit a flat-footed opponent and instead has to ready an attack, could the Knight just have the sneak attack but choose not to use it or would the whole ethos of a Blackguard conflict totally with that of a Knight, even an evil one?

A character can have abilities that their codes forbid them to use. A Paladin character would not fall merely for having the "Poison Use" ability despite having a code that forbids using poison.

Likewise a Knight does not suffer if it has the "Sneak Attack" ability unless it uses that ability.

[BeholdenCaulf]

I am aware of the rules regarding CoC and that a Knight wouldn't fall, the question was more from a roleplaying standpoint, a Knight of any alignment being honourable and Blackguards being dishonourable

Do you think an NPC who would pick and choose when to uphold his code of honour and disobey it on a regular basis too radical to be believable?

[ImaDeadMan]

So I made a Fighter 3/Knight 4/Blackguard 4 (he won't be facing him for a while) but here's my question

With the Knight's code stating he can't hit a flat-footed opponent and instead has to ready an attack, could the Knight just have the sneak attack but choose not to use it or would the whole ethos of a Blackguard conflict totally with that of a Knight, even an evil one?



Knights work off of a Code of Conduct. The code given in PH2 is that of a typically LG Knight. Basically, the way a Knight functions is that they must follow their code or suffer penalties. As a DM, you could house-rule that other Knights could follow a different Code of Conduct that is specific to their order. However, if that's not your thing and you want to run things as RAW then your evil knight will simply incur penalties from attacking a flat-footed opponent. The PH2 says that the Knight gives up his +2 bonus from flanking (PH2 pg. 27) but it doesn't say he is not counted as flanking the opponent. Therefore, you can still pull off sneak attacks without breaking the knight's code. The only issue is that this will be irrelevant in a 1v1 duel :(

[Red Fel]

I am aware of the rules regarding CoC and that a Knight wouldn't fall, the question was more from a roleplaying standpoint, a Knight of any alignment being honourable and Blackguards being dishonourable

Do you think an NPC who would pick and choose when to uphold his code of honour and disobey it on a regular basis too radical to be believable?

I think it depends on how you play him. Knight requires Lawful, Blackguard requires Evil, so he will be LE. The question is whether you put the emphasis on the L or the E.

An emphasis on the L means that he is evil, but honorable. He will not use Sneak Attack. He wants to prove his supremacy in honorable combat. He doesn't need tricks like Sneak Attack to deal with the miserable worms he deems to be beneath him.

An emphasis on the E means that he plays to win. He is opportunistic, moreso than your average knight. He will use Sneak Attack if it looks like it would grant him an early advantage. He'll basically see it as a legitimate use of his Knight's Challenge. He probably won't use it so much that he starts taking the penalty, but maybe once or twice, just to show that he's a nasty, naughty person who kicks puppies.

[ImaDeadMan]

I am aware of the rules regarding CoC and that a Knight wouldn't fall, the question was more from a roleplaying standpoint, a Knight of any alignment being honourable and Blackguards being dishonourable

Do you think an NPC who would pick and choose when to uphold his code of honour and disobey it on a regular basis too radical to be believable?

A LE Knight, whether he is a Blackguard or not, will uphold the Knight's Code to the best of his ability for fear of shaming his own name. From a role-playing standpoint, you seem to have merged two opposites but from as far as I can tell, the Knight/Blackguard will follow the Knight's Code to the best of his ability while still looking to use every advantage he can get. So he might not even hesitate to lose a Knight's Challenge in order to land a sneak attack if it will mean an advantage for him. If there is no audience and this is just a 1v1 duel between the player and this NPC, then he would likely sneak attack as often as he can since "history is written by the victor".

[Big Fau]

I am aware of the rules regarding CoC and that a Knight wouldn't fall, the question was more from a roleplaying standpoint, a Knight of any alignment being honourable and Blackguards being dishonourable

Do you think an NPC who would pick and choose when to uphold his code of honour and disobey it on a regular basis too radical to be believable?

If he did so against a specific enemy, namely the intended PC opponent, no. As long as he maintains the CoC while dealing with enemies other than that player it wouldn't be unrealistic (it would be justified by intense hatred leveled against that character, for reasons that can be determined later).

Edit: Giving him Ambush feats would be an excellent way to establish this, as they inflict penalties instead of dealing damage.

[BeholdenCaulf]

I think it depends on how you play him. Knight requires Lawful, Blackguard requires Evil, so he will be LE. The question is whether you put the emphasis on the L or the E.

An emphasis on the L means that he is evil, but honorable. He will not use Sneak Attack. He wants to prove his supremacy in honorable combat. He doesn't need tricks like Sneak Attack to deal with the miserable worms he deems to be beneath him.

An emphasis on the E means that he plays to win. He is opportunistic, moreso than your average knight. He will use Sneak Attack if it looks like it would grant him an early advantage. He'll basically see it as a legitimate use of his Knight's Challenge. He probably won't use it so much that he starts taking the penalty, but maybe once or twice, just to show that he's a nasty, naughty person who kicks puppies.


A LE Knight, whether he is a Blackguard or not, will uphold the Knight's Code to the best of his ability for fear of shaming his own name. From a role-playing standpoint, you seem to have merged two opposites but from as far as I can tell, the Knight/Blackguard will follow the Knight's Code to the best of his ability while still looking to use every advantage he can get. So he might not even hesitate to lose a Knight's Challenge in order to land a sneak attack if it will mean an advantage for him. If there is no audience and this is just a 1v1 duel between the player and this NPC, then he would likely sneak attack as often as he can since "history is written by the victor".

Both fantastic answers, really helped me to picture this nasty piece of work who wants his underlings and enemies alike to think that he's better than them due to his code but behind closed doors would stab a man in the back and write history in his own favour, thanks!

[Sgt. Cookie]

Be sure to take it with a grain of salt, but this is what the FAQ has to say on the subject:


A knight can deliver sneak attack damage when flanking an enemy without breaking the knight’s code. (Even though the knight doesn't gain the normal bonus on attack rolls due to flanking, he’s still considered flanking for all other purposes.)

[Arc_knight25]

Maybe instead of Blackguard use the Paladin of Tyranny variant of Paladin. Needs to be LE get a lot of the goodies of being a pally, maybe a better choice then Blackguard. But if you really want that SA then Blackguard it is.

[BeholdenCaulf]

Maybe instead of Blackguard use the Paladin of Tyranny variant of Paladin. Needs to be LE get a lot of the goodies of being a pally, maybe a better choice then Blackguard. But if you really want that SA then Blackguard it is.

The reason I chose Blackguard was because he will be working closely with Devils :)