What if Xykon's Phylactery was destroyed?

[AstralFire]

At the Dungeons of Dorukan, I mean.

Let's say that before Roy went Lou Ferrigno on Xykon, he had a brief encounter with Redcloak where he had unexpectedly sundered Redcloak's Holy Symbol, resulting in the more cowardly (at that time) Redcloak running away.

Thus, Xykon is dead upon being tossed into the gate. What's Redcloak's direction from that point on? Give up, or start anew?

[Don Ohnic]

To quote The Dark One: "Don't screw this up!". I don't think giving up would have been a valid long term option...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Give up, or start anew?

Start anew. RC doesn't age, so he'd be back at square one ("find an arcane caster you can rely upon to cast his half of the ritual"). It would be, what, 20-odd year set back? He could've bounced back.

In the words of Terry Pratchett, though, "This would've been a very short book".

Grey Wolf

[Porthos]

To quote The Dark One: "Don't screw this up!". I don't think giving up would have been a valid long term option...

While I agree ultimately, I don't think it is quite as simple as that, As AstralFire notes, this is before Redcloak (minor SoD spoilers)reasserted his self-confidence. He got a lot of that when he became the leader of the hobgoblins. If he doesn't get into that position he might drift around a bit longer before coming up with some sort of plan for The Plan.

That being said, going to Xykon's tower is the most logical place to Redcloak to start on his recovery tour. It has the diary that he'll need to find the locations of the other Gates. Going there will get him in contact with the hobgoblins. And thus on the path to better self-confidence.

What WILL be different, besides the scale of the initial loss, is that he won't have Xykon egging him on to commit acts of depravity. At the same time, he won't be a counter-example either. Would Redcloak have his famous moment of self-realization (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) if Xykon isn't constantly there to provide it?

Ok, it's unlikely Redcloak would have been in that position in the first place without Xykon, but the overall point is that his dislike of hobgoblins was blossoming into something much worse but was ultimately reversed when Redcloak realized who he was acting like.

Also, is the MitD here? I would think so. That might affect Redcloak's development as well.

Ultimately, as powerful as Xykon is as an ally, he's been a detrimental influence on Redcloak. Without having that constant Sunk Cost that is Xykon staring him in the face, it lets him pursue other paths that don't appeal to his worst instincts. Yes, he'll have to find a different arcane caster. But perhaps he'll be a bit more..... selective this go around than he was before. :smallsmile:

[Ewig Custos]

Redcloak would have gone to the nearest tavern, where by coincidence Zyklon the lich would have been hanging around.

[Xelbiuj]

Redcloak would have gone to the nearest tavern, where by coincidence Zyklon the lich would have been hanging around.

lmao.

Anyways, the Order would still probably end up destroying the gate, which would have led them to having chase down Redcloak, not much changes from their perspective except now the big baddy isn't so big.

The only reason RC allied himself with the hobos was because Xykon made him, so he may not have even had a giant army and that point.

So, may not have been able to take Xykon's tower, probably would have died to the ASD(?).

[Porthos]

The only reason RC allied himself with the hobos was because Xykon made him, so he may not have even had a giant army and that point.

Convinced him, not made him. Xykon wasn't in a position to make anyone do anything at the time. :smallwink:

I'm not as convinced Redcloak would have turned away from the hobgoblins in the hypothetical case we're discussing. He needs all the allies he can get. And with no Xykon he might have swallowed his pride and hooked up with them. Especially when it became apparent to him that he might not be able to tackle Xykon's Tower on his own/with the MitD.

[NerdyKris]

I think Redcloak would not have been as successful. He would have been significantly delayed in taking the tower back. He would have also had to find a new caster, delaying him significantly. By the time he accomplished that, it's likely the Order would have already gone on to one of the other gates with the aid of teleportation, since they would have raised the wizard in the morning. (An event that was delayed by the attack and Shojo's death)

Like Grey Wolf said, though, it would be a very short story. Or at least massively different. Nale would still be in prison, resulting in a much different sequence with Tarquin, not to mention the Draketooths still being alive if the Black Dragon never has time to attack V alone.

[AstralFire]

I believe I heard that at some point prior to the start of this story, Redcloak actually WAS ready to throw in the towel on the plot, until Xykon showed up and pretty much made him. Any chance of that reoccurring afterwards?

And I don't know if Redcloak would have necessarily been a less dangerous villain. It's true that he is significantly less powerful than Xykon in a direct confrontation, but he is also considerably more shrewd a leader.

[Porthos]

I think Redcloak would not have been as successful. He would have been significantly delayed in taking the tower back. He would have also had to find a new caster, delaying him significantly. By the time he accomplished that, it's likely the Order would have already gone on to one of the other gates with the aid of teleportation, since they would have raised the wizard in the morning. (An event that was delayed by the attack and Shojo's death)


The intereaction of Shojo and the Order would have been significantly different without Xykon around. Eugene would have never have hooked up with Shojo, and therefore the plan to 'arrest' the Order on bogus charged may never have come up.

Even if it did, and I doubt it to some degree, without the presence of Xykon. Miko has less reason to flip out over the Order, which stops the murder of Shojo from happening.

It would have been a radically different story. Mostly it would depend on how the Order get entagled in the Gate plot. Still plenty of room for wacky hijinks though. :smallwink:

[Porthos]

I believe I heard that at some point prior to the start of this story, Redcloak actually WAS ready to throw in the towel on the plot, until Xykon showed up and pretty much made him. Any chance of that reoccurring afterwards?

You really should get Start of Darkness when you have the opportunity. It's a good read, even without addressing backstory. :smallwink:

SoD spoilers:

It's not so much 'throw in the towel' as he was convinced by his brother to settle down and build the goblin people up as opposed to tear others down. The situation presented here is a bit different as Redcloak doesn't have a viable alternative to sink his energies into.

[NerdyKris]

The intereaction of Shojo and the Order would have been significantly different without Xykon around. Eugene would have never have hooked up with Shojo, and therefore the plan to 'arrest' the Order on bogus charged may never have come up.

Even if it did, and I doubt it to some degree, without the presence of Xykon. Miko has less reason to flip out over the Order, which stops the murder of Shojo from happening.

It would have been a radically different story. Mostly it would depend on how the Order get entagled in the Gate plot. Still plenty of room for wacky hijinks though. :smallwink:

Good point. I forgot Eugene wouldn't have been talking to Shojo. Assuming, for some silly reason that Eugene did talk to Shojo (or Shojo finds out another way) and the events leading up to them returning from Cliffport occur the same way, the battle of Azure City is the turning point of the entire story. So much hinges on it. Nale's release. Miko's fall. Shojo's death. The party's split, resulting in V's being alone for the Black Dragon attack.

Without Xykon's attack and Shojo's death, they'd have the resources of Azure City behind them. At the very least a teleporter. Assuming they went to the same gate, Tarquin would have done something else when following the Order, assuming he isn't destroyed by the Draketooths.

It's an interesting story, although lacking in the trials and growth that define the comic.

[SavageWombat]

Interesting question.

Partially it depends on whether the surviving goblins (if any) see Redcloak as their leader afterwards, instead of just Xykon's toady.

If Redcloak can't assert authority over the survivors, he'd be alone for the first time since he got the cloak. Might make him lose confidence.