Smite per encounter instead of per day?

[CyberThread]

How would the effective paladin build change, if smite was per encounter instead of per day?

[Malroth]

Not much, the best Paladin Feats would still be Sword of the Arcane Order, From Smite to song, Serenity, and Power Attack they'd just get to seem like paladins a few extra times per day instead of functioning like fighters, wizards or bards.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It improves-- you at least have some incentive to stay in the class past 6th level. Between that, Serenity, and Battle Blessing, a paladin 20 would be... ok-ish, I suppose. When fighting evil. Still pretty weak and really feat-starved, though.

[Ravens_cry]

Anyone seen what Pathfinder did to the Paladin would still be drooling.
If you were going to go for 'per encounter' though, I'd make it a) last the whole round, not the one attack, and, b) missing doesn't waste it.
Oh, and take out the silly melee only restriction.

[Fax Celestis]

Awesome Smite, Extra Smiting, and Sapphire Smite just got amazingly better.

[Qc Storm]

Dunno about you guys, but in my games, paladins only expend smites when they miss.

Feels pretty different overall, and is a definite buff for the poor guy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Anyone seen what Pathfinder did to the Paladin would still be drooling.
If you were going to go for 'per encounter' though, I'd make it a) last the whole round, not the one attack, and, b) missing doesn't waste it.
Oh, and take out the silly melee only restriction.
I actually don't particularly like Pathfinder's smite mechanic-- it's effective, sure, but it doesn't feel like a "smite," somehow. More of a mark. I want one big powerful attack, dang it!

[Silva Stormrage]

I actually don't particularly like Pathfinder's smite mechanic-- it's effective, sure, but it doesn't feel like a "smite," somehow. More of a mark. I want one big powerful attack, dang it!

Maybe add a homebrew mix. You gain the PF's "Mark Evil" and then you gain "Smite Evil" which would be 3.5's smite and can only be used on marked targets a number of times per encounter. It would make paladins stronger but they aren't that powerful anyway.

[Eldonauran]

Honestly, I would redesign the smite to work like the prestige class Hellreaver from the Fiendish Codex II.

[Ravens_cry]

I actually don't particularly like Pathfinder's smite mechanic-- it's effective, sure, but it doesn't feel like a "smite," somehow. More of a mark. I want one big powerful attack, dang it!
Your level in extra damage is not exactly one big attack. Against susceptible foes, a sneak attacker is doing, on average, almost double, and, with the right build, doing a bit less against everyone, with no per day or per encounter restrictions.

[CyberThread]

I smite everything versus... sorry am immune to that..

[Fax Celestis]

Your level in extra damage is not exactly one big attack. Against susceptible foes, a sneak attacker is doing, on average, almost double, and, with the right build, doing a bit less against everyone, with no per day or per encounter restrictions.

Except as a flat-value extra damage, it multiplies from crits or things like Spirited Charge (or even just mounted on a lance).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Your level in extra damage is not exactly one big attack. Against susceptible foes, a sneak attacker is doing, on average, almost double, and, with the right build, doing a bit less against everyone, with no per day or per encounter restrictions.
I didn't say the 3.5 version was good either. I like +1d6/level, personally. With a cooldown instead of a per-day or per-encounter mechanism.

[Ravens_cry]

Except as a flat-value extra damage, it multiplies from crits or things like Spirited Charge (or even just mounted on a lance).
While these things improve it, it does mean it rather restricts the play styles that are useful with a smite. I like the idea of the farmer spontaneously anointed by the gods to go out and do good in the world, perhaps using the sling he uses to chase away creatures from his crops and flock, as much as the aristocrat with the shining armour and the regal steed who has been trained since almost birth for this holy mission , as paladin concepts.


I didn't say the 3.5 version was good either. I like +1d6/level, personally. With a cooldown instead of a per-day or per-encounter mechanism.
Perhaps. I like the Pathfinder version. Been able to bypass ALL DR is especially nice at higher levels, as well is not having to worry about 'wasting' it, unless, of course, you smite the wrong thing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Perhaps. I like the Pathfinder version. Been able to bypass ALL DR is especially nice at higher levels, as well is not having to worry about 'wasting' it, unless, of course, you smite the wrong thing.
Fair enough. Like I said, it's personal preference as much as anything.

[Ravens_cry]

Fair enough. Like I said, it's personal preference as much as anything.
Fair enough. I would shake your hand if I could.:smallsmile:

[Angelalex242]

You could leave it per day, if it did something more impressive.

Forget Paladin Level as a damage bonus...

How about...Paladin Level Damage bonus...squared.

(Is there a reason to stay to level 20 in the paladin class now? Well, 20*20=400 damage...now that's a smite! Worse for the forces of evil, it's still a flat damage bonus, which means it can still be doubled, tripled, or even quadrupled on a crit with appropriate weapons. And just to make sure about these crits, he's got bless weapon to make sure all crits confirm...)

[Maginomicon]

In my main campaign, creatures have "evolved" slightly in a number of ways. Thus, I have all innate per-day abilities of any creature (not items, but creatures only) where one use recharges for every "(3 hours / maximum per day)" of continuous rest (this only applies to abilities marked "per day" or "each day", not "per week", "per hour", etc.). This effectively comes out to them being encounter abilities. It also means that a paladin's lay on hands ability becomes a lot more useful since they can recover "(paladin level * CHAmod)" HP multiple times per day. It sounds abusable, but all it really does in practice is make it so that you aren't screwed if you use up all of the charges at the start of the day. I just have to make sure to keep track of what time of day it is in-game when people rest or do time-consuming activities.

[Person_Man]

Smite Optimization (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10289492)

It can more or less already be done.

Binder: Andras, Desharis, and The The Triad vestiges each grant Smite abilities, along with a host of other very useful abilities. Andras is particular notable in that you can bind it as early as Binder 5 (with the Improved Binder feat), can use it once every 5 rounds, and that it works against Good AND Evil enemies regardless of your alignment.

Cleric/Ordained Champion. As a Swift Action you can burn Turn Undead to gain a Smite attempt. The bonus to hit is equal to your Cha bonus, and the bonus to damage is equal to your total effective turning or rebuking level. This Smite is not limited by alignment.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I actually don't particularly like Pathfinder's smite mechanic-- it's effective, sure, but it doesn't feel like a "smite," somehow. More of a mark. I want one big powerful attack, dang it!

It still does that against big evil guys with big evil guts, like Dragons and Outsiders. It's like the paladin saying 'I shall smite thee because thou art EEEVIL!'

I can't imagine the encounter of my disarmed paladin smashing an evil cleric's face with gauntlets if the buff was per-attack.

[Angelalex242]

Paladin level SQUARED for smite damage...

Think about it...

Even a Great Wyrm Red is going to think twice about challenging the puny little human in armor if it did that...

[Big Fau]

Paladin level SQUARED for smite damage...

Think about it...

Even a Great Wyrm Red is going to think twice about challenging the puny little human in armor if it did that...

That's a bit much, especially considering you can easily boost it with Bloodlines (ala Supermount). It wouldn't be difficult to get an effective Paladin level of around 35-60 for Smite.

[Angelalex242]

Yep. And if people do that, even the avatars of evil gods start running the hell away from you. (In such a campaign, it's a safe bet all of the evil gods have lost several avatars to smiting Paladins, following the normal penalties for losing one stated in deities and demigods.) Of course, the balance is that Blackguards packing smite good get the same multiplier, meaning any battle of Paladin vs. Blackguard comes down to who wins initiative. Because the first hit WILL OVERKILL your opponent.

60 squared, 3600 damage. Bring it, avatar of Hextor. Bring it.

[Big Fau]

Yep. And if people do that, even the avatars of evil gods start running the hell away from you. (In such a campaign, it's a safe bet all of the evil gods have lost several avatars to smiting Paladins, following the normal penalties for losing one stated in deities and demigods.) Of course, the balance is that Blackguards packing smite good get the same multiplier, meaning any battle of Paladin vs. Blackguard comes down to who wins initiative. Because the first hit WILL OVERKILL your opponent.

60 squared, 3600 damage. Bring it, avatar of Hextor. Bring it.

Turning Smite X into Rocket Tag does not balance it (it does improve it, but not balance it).

[Angelalex242]

Well, if Smite became the ultimate raw damage output (against the chosen alignment), would it dramatically increase Paladins on the tier chart? Would their code be enough to discourage players from playing them, even if Smite Evil becomes an I win button x times per day?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, if Smite became the ultimate raw damage output (against the chosen alignment), would it dramatically increase Paladins on the tier chart? Would their code be enough to discourage players from playing them, even if Smite Evil becomes an I win button x times per day?
Probably not. "Can insta-kill anything" still only makes for a (broken) T4 character. "Can insta-kill anything evil if they hit with an attack 5/day" is just a more limited version of that.

A more graceful way of boosting the class (without writing new material) would be to grant Serenity as a free bonus feat at 1st level, Battle Blessing at 6th, and allow Charging Smite to be taken without giving up the mount. Then at least you get a decent smite and less MAD. That's probably enough to get you into T4. Bump skills up to 4+Int (so you can take things besides Ride and Handle Animal) and grant Warmage-style "cast all spells on the list spontaneously" and you're in business.

EDIT: Don't forget that even a Samurai can pull off the Power Attack-Leap Attack-Shock Trooper combo. Damage most assuredly isn't everything.

[Big Fau]

Well, if Smite became the ultimate raw damage output (against the chosen alignment), would it dramatically increase Paladins on the tier chart? Would their code be enough to discourage players from playing them, even if Smite Evil becomes an I win button x times per day?

Instant-kills as the only ability worth using is the definition of Tier 4 (does one thing well, but can be shut down easily) or an optimized Tier 5.

[Phelix-Mu]

I actually like the idea of gutting Paladin and using the Hellreaver mechanic. That PrC is everything Paladins should be plus some extra awesome. I'd let the Paladin keep the token spellcasting (nice for ACFs if nothing else), and the mount (more ACFs or ubermount), and then add in the Hellreaver mechanic, extrapolated a bit to cover the rest of the 20 levels.