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Quellian-dyrae
2007-01-08, 02:21 PM
There are basically four ways to handle a melee weapon. The devastating power of the two handed grip; the blurring speed of two weapon fighting; the powerful defenses of the weapon and shield combination; and the, um, the opportunity to wave "hi" to people while fighting with a weapon in one hand?

Frankly, one handed fighting is virtually useless. Even feats that would seem to favor fighting with a single weapon (spring attack, for example) are no less effective (and probably more effective) when using a two handed weapon or a shield. This selection of feats is an effort to rectify that by giving the single-weapon specialist its own role to fill: accuracy. The feats are probably a degree more powerful than some others, but this extra benefit is made up for by requiring that you fight using the weakest fighting style.

All of these may be selected as fighter bonus feats.

Combat Elitism:
You favor precision strikes over massive damage.

Prerequisites: Int 13+.

Benefit: You can lower your damage rolls to increase your attack rolls. Each -2 you take on damage increases your attack rolls by +1. These adjustments must be initiated on your turn and last the entire round. You can get a bonus no higher than your base attack bonus, and you may not wind up with a negative modifier on damage (so a character with a damage roll of 1d8+7 could take no more than -7 to damage). You may not power attack and use combat elitism in the same round.

Special: A barbarian in rage (or another character using a rage ability) cannot use the combat elitism feat.

Combat Elitism, Improved:
You fight very effectively when using only one hand in combat.

Prerequisites: Int 13+, Combat Elitism.

Benefit: When you use the combat elitism feat while using only one hand in combat (so, not fighting with two weapons, or a weapon in both hands, or using a shield, or attacking with a natural weapon/unarmed strike in addition to your weapon attack, and so on) you take a -1 penalty on damage for each +1 to your attack roll. The normal rules for combat elitism apply.

Elite Threat:
You take advantage of critical openings to make another deft attack.

Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Combat Elitism.

Benefit: When you score a threat with an attack while using only one hand in combat, you may choose to forego your check to score a critical hit and instead make an immediate additional attack against the same opponent.

Elite Threat, Improved:
You take advantage of critical openings to make another deft attack.

Prerequisites: Dex 15+, Combat Elitism, Elite Threat.

Benefit: Your secondary attacks due to the elite threat feat have threat ranges equal to the base threat range of your weapon. No adjustments to your threat range from any source apply to these secondary attacks.

If you do score a threat on one of these secondary attacks, you can attempt a critical hit or make another attack, which itself uses the base threat range of your weapon.

Elitist Strike:
You watch for the perfect moment, executing a single precise strike.

Prerequisites: Int 13+, Combat Elitism, Improved Combat Elitism, Base Attack Bonus +6.

Benefit: While fighting with only one hand in combat, you may, as a full round action, make a single precise strike. You gain a +2 bonus on your attack roll. When your base attack bonus reaches +11, this bonus changes to +4. When your base attack bonus reaches +16, the bonus changes to +6.

Elitist Strike, Improved:
Your elitist strikes are more likely than normal to score critical hits.

Prerequisites: Int 13+, Combat Elitism, Improved Combat Elitism, Elitist Strike, Base Attack Bonus +9.

Benefit: When you make an elitist strike, your threat range increases by one per point of the attack roll increase, provided you are wielding a weapon with a X2 critical multiplier. If the critical multiplier is X3, the increase is +1 per two points. If the multiplier is X4, it is +1 per three points. This bonus does stack with other effects that improve critical hits.

Elitist Strike, Greater:
If you score a critical hit on an elitist strike, it is particularly devastating.

Prerequisites: Int 13+, Combat Elitism, Improved Combat Elitism, Elitist Strike, Improved Elitist Strike, Base Attack Bonus +12.

Benefit: When you score a critical hit on an elitist strike, your critical multiplier increases by 1. This does not change the threat range increase afforded you by the improved elitist strike feat.

Elitist Strike, Swift:
You can spot an opening for an elitist strike more quickly.

Prerequisites: Int 13+, Combat Elitism, Improved Combat Elitism, Elitist Strike, Base Attack Bonus +6.

Benefit: You may make an elitist strike as a standard action, rather than a full-round action. You may only make one elitist strike per round, but you may do so after a move, as part of a spring attack, and so on. Since you are not necessarily taking advantage of as good an opening as you would with a full-round action, you gain only half the usual benefit of the improved elitist strike feat, and no benefit from greater elitist strike, when using this option.

Precision Strike:
Your damage power comes from skill, not strength.

Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Combat Elitism or Weapon Finesse.

Benefit: When using only one hand in combat, you may substitute your Dexterity modifier for your Strength modifier for damage rolls with a melee weapon. The benefit of this feat only applies when wielding a weapon that can be affected by the weapon finesse feat.

Precision Strike, Improved:
You can maintain a skillful showing even while concentrating on your off hand.

Prerequisites: Dex 15+, Precision Strike, Weapon Finesse.

Benefit: You may use your precision strike feat even when not using only one hand in combat. If you do so, you do not halve your damage bonus with an off-hand weapon, but neither do you increase it for wielding a weapon in both hands. This feat does not allow you to utilize other one-handed fighting feats or abilities with multiple hands, only precision strike.

Blinkbear
2007-01-08, 02:27 PM
This sounds like a cool solution for rapier/high dex fighters. I am not sure about balancing though, I am not the right one to check this.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-08, 02:32 PM
You may want to specify whether Improved Elitist Strike stacks with Improved Critical, keen, and the like. From the description, it seems that it is meant to, but then, I could be wrong.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-08, 02:38 PM
Looks good. Maybe a TWD equivalent?

Blinkbear
2007-01-08, 02:40 PM
Yeah, something like a parry ability, which makes sense in my thoughts. (though something like that might already exist, I have no clue)

EDIT: I think you simply can take combat expertise. It says nowhere that you can not take it, and like that you can put damage into armor class.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-08, 02:57 PM
This...this is a whole lot of feats for weapons. More then a single class could probably take for awhile. (Except for...)

Perhaps make them Fighter bonus feats as well.


Heck! You could make a new class out of all these abilities!

Blinkbear
2007-01-08, 03:43 PM
Perhaps make them Fighter bonus feats as well.



The OT said:



All of these may be selected as fighter bonus feats.


Or did you mean something else? :smalleek:

Oh and I think these feats might combine well with a swashbuckler using a rapier. Or am I mistaken?

Arbitrarity
2007-01-08, 04:11 PM
Looks also like duelist... Though the abilities go together rather... well.

All of them together, except improved precision strike, make for, say, +3 keen rapier, 26 dex (Level 16 fighter) +32, 1d6+1, 12-20 x3 crit, one attack per round. If crit, +18 damage. 45% crit, does 3d6+21... In 20 hits does (assuming always hit) 38d6+200...

6 fighter, 10 duelist? Can get +2d6 on that damage, so 76d6 extra in 20 hits.... not to mention other class features (i.e. elaborate parry)

2HF, +4 Greatsword, 26 str, 16 fighter... +28/23/18/13 to hit, 2d6+16 17-20 x2, so, less accurate, 4x as many attacks. Over 20 hits, 48d6+384. Also attacks more.

Actually, it doesn't see incredibly bad, it just reminds me too much of 3.0 weapon masters with scimitars. Criticals everywhere.

Matthew
2007-01-08, 06:44 PM
Maybe restrict these abilities to finessable Weapons?

Blinkbear
2007-01-08, 06:51 PM
I will probably test the feats soon with a swashbuckler. If you want I give you feedback how they worked out. I will start at level 8 and probably take as many of them as possible. Though my dm does not want me to take the dex-to-damage thing - so no testing on those.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-01-08, 07:03 PM
Playtest feedback would be great, Blinkbear. Thanks! The one thing I would warn you (and your DM) about would be the swift elitist strike. Although accomplishing it would take a lot of feats, and it probably wouldn't be that devastating at the lower levels, looking back over it, I realize that the combination of spring attack and swift, greater elitist strike is a fairly devastating build. Actually, I had better tweak that...::goes to do so::

Roderick_BR
2007-01-09, 05:14 AM
I looked over it quickly, and I must say the idea looks great. That's what fighters really need, useful feats.
Actually, I was reading an old Fighter's Complete Handbook, and the idea of working on "weapon styles" looks good. You already covered a lot with one handed. If we could get others styles (2 handed, 2 weapons, sword and shield) we could gather a cool compendium. I'm working on a sword & shield style, and I'll compare it to your feats to see how the balancing would be.

Blinkbear
2007-01-09, 06:15 AM
Okay, here we go: My plans on a character using at least some of these feats:

Human Swashbuckler 4/Fighter 4.

If you ask why not fighter 8? I answer: Because I want the skills and like the flavor. Oh and I also get my intelligence bonus to damage, not too bad, I guess.

Let's assume the following:

STR +2, DEX +5, INT +3. +2 Rapier. This includes a pair of +4 gloves of dex.

Feats:

1) Combat Elitism
1h) Combat Elitism, Improved
3) Iron Will
4) Elite thread

5f) Combat Reflexes
6) Weapon Focus (Rapier)
6f) Elitist Strike
8f) Weapon Specialisation (Rapier)

Note: I am not allowed to take these dex-to-damage feat(s).
Let's have a look at the attack rolls:
+8 BAB, +5 DEX (Swashbuckler gives me weapon finesse), +1 Weapon focus, +2 enhancement bonus from the weapon = +16/+11

My damage is:
1d6 + 2 enhancement bonus + 3 int + 2 str + 2 weapon specialisation = 1d6+9

Now I can use the Improved Combat Elitism to get the following attack roll (max. +8, because of BAB):
+24/+15
This brings my damage to 1d6+1.
If I score a threat (18-20), I get 1d6+9 as damage.

Now let's use an elitist strike instead. This adds +2 to my attack roll:
In combination with Improved Combat Elitism, I now have one attack at +26 which counts as a full round action and does 1d6+1 damage if I roll under 18 and does 1d6+9 if I roll 18, 19 or 20.

If I look into the near future, I think of taking Improved Elitist Strike which will give my rapier a better threat range (and keep in mind that this not only gives me more critical hits but also lets me keep my damage that I put into attack rolls).


I just wanted to show the extremes up there: Probably I will more often rely on putting some (like +3) to my attack rolls and keep at least some damage. Or the like. Because I still have to roll an 18 or higher to keep my damage and 1d6+1 is nearly nothing on level 8. I mean, of course 1d8+9 isn't so much either. I still see more power in falchion fighters, but it's a step. Of course, my character would rock even more if he would be allowed to put dex to damage, but since my DM doesn't like that, I won't bother him with that. Only keep that in mind when you think of balancing.
Comments?

Altharis
2007-01-15, 01:43 AM
Wow! I like it! To this date I have 5 PC's that have been einhanders, and this helps almost all of them! I'm using them!

Ultimatum479
2007-01-15, 10:41 AM
Reminds me of Dueling from KotOR. Cool-ness.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-01-15, 08:08 PM
Thanks for the analysis, Blinkbear. Looking at it, I'm thinking that elite threat might be a balance risk. Particularly upon considering the combination of Elite Threat, Improved Combat Elitism, and Improved Combat Expertise. Your enemy is missing you except on a 20, and you just toy with your stats until your roll required to hit is exactly equal to your threat range. That, obviously, will not do.

::Goes to revise::

Blinkbear
2007-01-16, 03:00 AM
Just to let you know. I did not make it into the level 8 campaign. But I try it now with a level 2 swashbuckler. He takes Precise Strike and Combat Elitism on first level (human). The DM has ruled Weapon Finesse and Combat Elitism as prerequisites for Precise Strike. I don't know if I will ever level up (or come into the game in the first place), but I'll try :)

Sornas
2007-01-19, 10:25 AM
I'm no balance expert, so I'm sure I'm missing something big here, but I can't see a reason why you would need both regular and improved combat elitism.

Using Power attack to compare, you have a 1-for-1, with a possible 2-for-1. However, in this case, you need to spend two feats for a 1-for-1, without the option of two-for-one at all.

It seems to me that it would make more sense to roll combat elitism and improved combat elitism into one feat, which everyone can take (I can't understand why a feat like this wasn't already made anyway, we have feats to convert just about everything else...), and then allow one-handed only fighters to get a 2-for-1 deal like the two handers do for power attack.

Thay might mean you need to rebalance a few of the later feats, but I think it just makes more sense, and puts it more on par with Power attack and combat expertise. (Of course, I also think sword and board should get 2-for-1 from combat expertise, but anyway...)

I'm sure the math works out against me, but I dunno, it just seems to make more sense.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-01-19, 01:21 PM
See, it's funny. I'm not sure I can confidently state that attack roll bonuses are strictly more powerful than damage roll bonuses in a strict mathematical analysis, but I'm fairly sure that the general consensus is that they are (and my instinct tells me that as well). Of course, the situation is going to dictate the results. If you are fighting a high AC foe, combat elitism is better. If you are fighting a low AC foe, power attack is better.

I think a key point, though, lies in secondary attacks. Each iterative attack essentially gives your foe +5 AC, which favors combat elitism. Since high-level characters also tend to have higher damage bonuses (and, thus, get less benefit from damage increase and less hindrance from reduced damage) what it comes out to is that combat elitism is advantageous for high-level fighters.

Beyond that, it is often easier to get damage bonuses than attack bonuses. Weapon specialization gives +2, while focus gives +1. If you fight with a weapon in two hands, your Strength gives * 1.5 the normal bonus to damage. A bane weapon gives +2 to attack and damage rolls, but an extra +2d6 damage on top of that. If it were easy to convert damage to attack, the balance of those feats and abilities would be sorely tested. That all in mind, changing them to 1 for 1 and 2 for 1 I don't think I can do. I would have nightmares about greatsword wielding characters with combat elitism. I could, potentially, leave them as they are but just fold them into one feat. Might look into that.

Kimi
2007-01-19, 07:36 PM
Some great ideas you have there. :smallsmile:

For the one handed fighter's defense, there's the narrow profile. I can swear I've seen this somewhere else already (maybe one of those combat maneuver feats :smallsigh: ), but I don't remember exactly how it works. Well, the basic idea is making yourself harder to hit by standing kind of sideways and keeping a narrow profile.

There's also the ability to negate the enemy's attack (parry). I believe this is from the PHBII. IIRC you make an attack roll as an immediate action, and that becomes your AC against that particular attack.

Just some ideas.

Matthew
2007-01-22, 05:05 PM
See, it's funny. I'm not sure I can confidently state that attack roll bonuses are strictly more powerful than damage roll bonuses in a strict mathematical analysis, but I'm fairly sure that the general consensus is that they are (and my instinct tells me that as well). Of course, the situation is going to dictate the results. If you are fighting a high AC foe, combat elitism is better. If you are fighting a low AC foe, power attack is better.

They definitely are. Even if it didn't work out mathematically (and sometimes it doesn't, such as when you are doing very low Damage and already have a High Attack Bonus), Power Attack pretty much ends any discussion. You can't change Damage Bonus to Attack Bonus, but you can change Attack Bonus to Damage Bonus (within limits) and even at a 2:1 Ration in the case of Two Handed Weapons.