savage progression questions?

[CyberThread]

Things that do with svage progression like the ghost and other templates.

Are those you have to take all of them, or progress them in them as you like?


Savage Progression Ghost

2 Ghost/ 3 pally / 2 ghost /1 rog / 1 ghost...


or


1 pally/ 5 ghost / player classes

[nedz]

There are some rules from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a).

Which includes


Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class.

Which, incidental, implies that you never have to take all of them.

As a DM I may also insist that certain levels be delayed until a certain ECL. Typically this is no flight before 6th etc.
I don't like having my low level challenges trivialised, it just spoils everyone's fun.

[Pluto!]

It's confusing because the similar and similarly-referenced Savage Species monster classes do have to be taken all at once.

[One Step Two]

It's confusing because the similar and similarly-referenced Savage Species monster classes do have to be taken all at once.

Indeed, however, it's not so simple to allow people to take them as Savage progressions, and just let people multiclass the Racial "levels".

The reason savage species makes you take all the levels without Multi-classing, is because some of the stats come into play at level 0, and make for wildly broken base classes. A Starting Stone Giant, for example, has +4 Strength, 40ft land speed, Darkvision 60ft, and a +8 bonus to hide checks in rocky terrain. All for LA 0. Being able to be a Stone Giant "0"/[melee class of choice] 1 is pretty powerful, even if you don't take any other levels of Stone Giant.

So, you'd need to re-work the levels to make it more balanced.

[Pluto!]

I always wanted to play one of those two cleric++ celestials in a level 1-5 game, but they're not really subtle in their silliness. Maybe someday...

Anyway, I only mention it because the savage progression/savage species distinction is one of those things like psionic PP caps, Monster HD and incarnum as a whole that every single person I've seen use has gotten wrong.

[One Step Two]

I always wanted to play one of those two cleric++ celestials in a level 1-5 game, but they're not really subtle in their silliness. Maybe someday...

Anyway, I only mention it because the savage progression/savage species distinction is one of those things like psionic PP caps, Monster HD and incarnum as a whole that every single person I've seen use has gotten wrong.

It goes without saying, the rules to play monster are generally terrible. With the exception of the Werecreature savage progressions, using them to represent staggered LA makes alot more sense.

[nedz]

Indeed, however, it's not so simple to allow people to take them as Savage progressions, and just let people multiclass the Racial "levels".

The reason savage species makes you take all the levels without Multi-classing, is because some of the stats come into play at level 0, and make for wildly broken base classes. A Starting Stone Giant, for example, has +4 Strength, 40ft land speed, Darkvision 60ft, and a +8 bonus to hide checks in rocky terrain. All for LA 0. Being able to be a Stone Giant "0"/[melee class of choice] 1 is pretty powerful, even if you don't take any other levels of Stone Giant.

So, you'd need to re-work the levels to make it more balanced.

Well there are two types of Savage Progressions.
There are those with a so called +0 level, which are just racial modifiers you bolt onto a base class, and more levels to follow.
Then there are those with a set of levels from +1 to +n.

[Pluto!]

Oh, just saw that I misread OST's post the first time. It's the sort of confusion I'm talking about.

Yeah, the Savage Progressions are template classes, all found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp). They have no level 0 or base race to modify, and do permit multiclassing in and out. Some of them are kind still on the strong end at low levels (well, ghost (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) is anyway), but multiclassing is legal and doesn't let a character get too far out of line with the normal power curve.

On the other hand, the monster classes written with the mechanics from Savage Species, are not "Savage Progressions," (see why the name scheme's confusing?) and follow different rules. They all have racial stats and racial progressions from level 1, usually with ridiculous front-loading that would make houseruled multiclassing pretty danged abusable (eg. Trumpet Archon/Clerics with level 9 casting at ECL 15 on top of an improved chassis and extra features).

[CyberThread]

am confused now, what is the new answer :P

[Pluto!]

Probably my bad. :p

Basically, if it's from the Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) article series (like the Ghost in the OP): Multiclassing is fine, even if you haven't taken all the levels in the class.

Monster classes from any other source (Savage Species, Races of X, wherever else): Multiclassing is not kosher if you haven't finished the class progression.

So Paladin 2/Ghost (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) 2/Warblade 16 would work fine, but Paladin 2/Savage Species Efreeti 2/Warblade 16 would not.

[OldTrees1]

am confused now, what is the new answer :P

The original, final and RAW answer is quoted above.



Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class.

This holds for Savage Progressions Template classes and only for Savage Progressions Template classes.