Jack B. Quick without Karmic Strike

[JoeChip]

I recently discovered the Jack B. Quick build by caelic for D&D 3.5 and I'm very impressed with it. For those of you unfamiliar with it here is the basic build

Human Fighter 20

1. TWF, Dodge, WF (Longsword)
2. Combat Expertise
3. Improved Trip
4. WF (Handaxe)
5.
6. Improved TWF, High Sword Low Axe
7.
8. Combat Reflexes
9. Karmic Strike
10. Double Hit
11.
12. Robilar's Gambit, Mobility
13.
14. Elusive Target
15. Power Attack
16. Overpowering Attack
17.
18. Improved Unarmed Strike, Defensive Throw
19.
20. Sidestep

And here is the source http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1062806

The only thing that bothers me is there's some disagreement over whether the feats Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit stack to give you two AoOs every time you are hit. Now let's just assume for the sake of this thread that the DM rules that they don't stack. Personally if this happened I'd drop Karmic strike out of the two because Robilar's gives you an AoO just from being attacked and Karmic only gives you one if you get hit. So for this build what feat would you replace karmic strike with?

Right now Two-Weapon Rend looks best to me. It stacks well with High Sword Low Axe, every time you hit with both weapons you're getting a free trip attack and doing extra damage. Does anyone have other feats you would recommend to replace karmic or other modifications to the build you would suggest?

One last thing, please don't bother posting how underpowered fighters are or how terrible/suboptimal two weapon fighting is. I've heard it all before. This is a thread discussing a two weapon fighter build. If that bothers you just remember no one is making you read this thread.

Thanks in advance for suggestions!

[Krazzman]

Why should it not stack?

The one triggers when someone intents to attack you so you get an AoO against him. The second triggers at the moment you would be hit and you get an AoO out of it. If you kill him with the first AoO he will never trigger the Karmic Strike. If you kill him with the second you won't get any damage. (If the text says when you are hit and not when you receive damage).

Maybe take a feat to get a strike/stance or Incarnum stuff or whatever.

[JoeChip]

Why should it not stack?

The one triggers when someone intents to attack you so you get an AoO against him. The second triggers at the moment you would be hit and you get an AoO out of it. If you kill him with the first AoO he will never trigger the Karmic Strike. If you kill him with the second you won't get any damage. (If the text says when you are hit and not when you receive damage).

Maybe take a feat to get a strike/stance or Incarnum stuff or whatever.

Allot of people, including myself, believe that those feats should stack. Some people believe that they should not. Apparently somebody sent Wizards of the Coast customer service an email asking about it some years ago and customer service said they don't stack. What really matters is the decisions of individual Dungeons Masters. They are the one's that decide what does and does not work in their campaigns.

What I'm asking the forum is if your DM ruled that these feats don't stack what feat would you take instead of Karmic Strike?

By strike/stance I'm assuming you mean something from the book of nine swords? I've never used anything out of there while playing a fighter, might be interesting, thanks.

[chaos_redefined]

It ruins the aim to be "Fighter 20", but move power attack into Karmic Strike's place, move Improved Unarmed Strike into Power Attack's original place, and put 2 levels of Warblade in place of levels 17 and 18 (since you are no longer taking a second feat at level 18). This allows you to pick up Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Dancing Mongoose and Pouncing Charge. These 4 maneuvers allow you to move and attack with both weapons. (Sudden Leap and Pouncing Charge allow you to make a full attack and move. Wolf Fang Strike allows you to attack twice as a standard action. Dancing Mongoose allows you to attack twice as a swift action). You can do them once per combat, but if you go for a round without using your swift action and don't use maneuvers, they recharge. Oh, and pick up a stance. Punishing Stance gives it +1d6 damage?

Dancing Mongoose also happens to work well with Overpowering Attack.

While I'm desecrating the "Fighter 20" aspect of this, replace 2 levels of fighter with 2 levels of barbarian and pick up Improved Trip from the alternate class feature. And Pounce in place of Fast Movement. (making pouncing charge seem less useful. Up to you to figure what other maneuver you want there.)

Edit: I apologize if this comes off as "fighters suck", but the build is still predominantly fighter (after my suggestions, it's Fighter 16/Warblade 2/Barbarian 2. If you ignore the barbarian section, then it's Fighter 18/Warblade 2.)

If you actually want feats, then... I suppose 2 weapon rend is decent. If you can free up an extra feat, then Weapon Specialization + Melee Weapon Mastery gives you +2 to hit and +2 damage with one weapon, and +2 to hit/+4 to damage with the other. Your choice on which is which. The +2 to hit makes it more likely you'll hit with both attacks in double-hit.

[JoeChip]

It ruins the aim to be "Fighter 20", but move power attack into Karmic Strike's place, move Improved Unarmed Strike into Power Attack's original place, and put 2 levels of Warblade in place of levels 17 and 18 (since you are no longer taking a second feat at level 18). This allows you to pick up Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Dancing Mongoose and Pouncing Charge. These 4 maneuvers allow you to move and attack with both weapons. (Sudden Leap and Pouncing Charge allow you to make a full attack and move. Wolf Fang Strike allows you to attack twice as a standard action. Dancing Mongoose allows you to attack twice as a swift action). You can do them once per combat, but if you go for a round without using your swift action and don't use maneuvers, they recharge. Oh, and pick up a stance. Punishing Stance gives it +1d6 damage?

Dancing Mongoose also happens to work well with Overpowering Attack.

While I'm desecrating the "Fighter 20" aspect of this, replace 2 levels of fighter with 2 levels of barbarian and pick up Improved Trip from the alternate class feature. And Pounce in place of Fast Movement. (making pouncing charge seem less useful. Up to you to figure what other maneuver you want there.)

Edit: I apologize if this comes off as "fighters suck", but the build is still predominantly fighter (after my suggestions, it's Fighter 16/Warblade 2/Barbarian 2. If you ignore the barbarian section, then it's Fighter 18/Warblade 2.)

If you actually want feats, then... I suppose 2 weapon rend is decent. If you can free up an extra feat, then Weapon Specialization + Melee Weapon Mastery gives you +2 to hit and +2 damage with one weapon, and +2 to hit/+4 to damage with the other. Your choice on which is which. The +2 to hit makes it more likely you'll hit with both attacks in double-hit.

No worries, you're not coming across as "fighters suck" at all. Hell you're leaving in 16-18 levels of fighter which is way more attention and credit than allot of people are willing to give the class and I appreciate that. I just didn't want people lecturing me on how fighter is only good as a dip class, etc.

You're fighter18/Warblade2 build idea sounds pretty good. I haven't played a Warblade in years but it was fun back in the day. Time to brush off the book of nine swords and read up on those maneuvers you suggested.

Also, I could free up a feat by getting Improved TWF through gloves of the balanced hand rather than a feat. So Weapon Specialization + Melee Weapon Mastery isn't out of the question if I go full fighter. Thanks for the advise!

[IronFist]

"Like I said," he addressed the air. "In the world."

[Nightraiderx]

If you get improved unarmed strike, you can also grab snap kick, which lets you land a third attack whenever you use two or more unarmed strikes, you can change the focus from unarmed strike to (weapon of choice) using warblade's retraining ability, deft opportunist will give you a +4 to attack when using AoO's
so every AoO will basically have three attacks situated with it. OR instead of wasting time on snap kick, grab yourself some lightning maces and dual wield feycraft scimitar (makes them light weapons the template is in dungeon master's guide 2) every time you "threaten" an attack, that's right another free attack. improved crit/keen those suckers and you have a 1/4 chance to swing again.

[chaos_redefined]

No worries, you're not coming across as "fighters suck" at all. Hell you're leaving in 16-18 levels of fighter which is way more attention and credit than allot of people are willing to give the class and I appreciate that. I just didn't want people lecturing me on how fighter is only good as a dip class, etc.

You're fighter18/Warblade2 build idea sounds pretty good. I haven't played a Warblade in years but it was fun back in the day. Time to brush off the book of nine swords and read up on those maneuvers you suggested.

Also, I could free up a feat by getting Improved TWF through gloves of the balanced hand rather than a feat. So Weapon Specialization + Melee Weapon Mastery isn't out of the question if I go full fighter. Thanks for the advise!

Well, the basic premise of my idea was "if you can't think of another feat, try digging up some class features" ... I could see it being a problem.

The build was 20 levels of fighter because Caelic decided it would be 20 levels of fighter. As I've already pointed out, adding in 2 levels of barbarian gives you improved trip and other things. What I didn't realize until just now is that actually frees up another feat (and a stat, while we are at it). You don't need Combat Expertise, or the Int 13 that goes with it.

With that in mind, you can now have:
Human Barbarian 2/Fighter 18
1 - Two Weapon Fighting
1 - Dodge
2 - Improved Trip
3 - Weapon Focus(Longsword)
3 - Weapon Focus(Handaxe)
4 - High Sword, Low Axe
6 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
6 - Combat Reflexes
8 - Mobility
9 - Elusive Target
10 - Double Hit
12 - Robilar's Gambit
12 - Power Attack
14 - Improved Unarmed Strike
15 - Defensive Throw
16 - Sidestep
18 - Overwhelming Attack
18 - SPARE
20 - SPARE

With the two spare feats, I still recommend replacing 2 levels with Warblade, but looking over Caelic's comments, there's also Deft Oppurtunist, which does what I was trying to do with 2 feats with just one, and better (+4 to AoOs).

If you don't like Warblade and wanna stick it out with Fighter, then Two Weapon Rend isn't bad. The build got slightly less MAD, so you have more strength now. Alternatively, Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper means that you charge on your turn (pouncing thanks to that barbarian level), attack for massive damage, elusive target the guy so he can't hurt you too badly, and then on his turn attack with the massive damage again. Also, you can still Warblade with this, since Barbarian 2 gives pounce, and losing overpowering attack and deft oppurtunist for improved bull rush and shock trooper, meaning you are a less effective uber charger* who also does massive damage outside of his turn.

(Also note, with the above feat order, I moved Elusive Target to be level 9, so once he gets to level 12, he uses his trademark schtick without worrying about his opponent power attacking. This was another one of Caelic's concerns.)

*Less effective Uber Chargers still deal way more damage than they need to in a lot of situations.

[JoeChip]

Well, the basic premise of my idea was "if you can't think of another feat, try digging up some class features" ... I could see it being a problem.

The build was 20 levels of fighter because Caelic decided it would be 20 levels of fighter. As I've already pointed out, adding in 2 levels of barbarian gives you improved trip and other things. What I didn't realize until just now is that actually frees up another feat (and a stat, while we are at it). You don't need Combat Expertise, or the Int 13 that goes with it.

With that in mind, you can now have:
Human Barbarian 2/Fighter 18
1 - Two Weapon Fighting
1 - Dodge
2 - Improved Trip
3 - Weapon Focus(Longsword)
3 - Weapon Focus(Handaxe)
4 - High Sword, Low Axe
6 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
6 - Combat Reflexes
8 - Mobility
9 - Elusive Target
10 - Double Hit
12 - Robilar's Gambit
12 - Power Attack
14 - Improved Unarmed Strike
15 - Defensive Throw
16 - Sidestep
18 - Overwhelming Attack
18 - SPARE
20 - SPARE

With the two spare feats, I still recommend replacing 2 levels with Warblade, but looking over Caelic's comments, there's also Deft Oppurtunist, which does what I was trying to do with 2 feats with just one, and better (+4 to AoOs).

If you don't like Warblade and wanna stick it out with Fighter, then Two Weapon Rend isn't bad. The build got slightly less MAD, so you have more strength now. Alternatively, Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper means that you charge on your turn (pouncing thanks to that barbarian level), attack for massive damage, elusive target the guy so he can't hurt you too badly, and then on his turn attack with the massive damage again. Also, you can still Warblade with this, since Barbarian 2 gives pounce, and losing overpowering attack and deft oppurtunist for improved bull rush and shock trooper, meaning you are a less effective uber charger* who also does massive damage outside of his turn.

(Also note, with the above feat order, I moved Elusive Target to be level 9, so once he gets to level 12, he uses his trademark schtick without worrying about his opponent power attacking. This was another one of Caelic's concerns.)

*Less effective Uber Chargers still deal way more damage than they need to in a lot of situations.

I actually like the Warblade class allot but I'm not really into Barbarian. If I were to multi-class I'd most likely skip Barbarian and just go with that Fighter 18/Warblade 2 build you suggested earlier.

As for Deft Opportunist, I like this feat but I'm worried that without Karmic Strike I won't be getting enough attacks of opportunity to make the feat worth it. Remember that Deft Opportunist only gives you a +4 to hit on AoOs, not on any other attacks.

Thank you for your suggestions, you've given me some ideas.


If you get improved unarmed strike, you can also grab snap kick, which lets you land a third attack whenever you use two or more unarmed strikes, you can change the focus from unarmed strike to (weapon of choice) using warblade's retraining ability, deft opportunist will give you a +4 to attack when using AoO's
so every AoO will basically have three attacks situated with it. OR instead of wasting time on snap kick, grab yourself some lightning maces and dual wield feycraft scimitar (makes them light weapons the template is in dungeon master's guide 2) every time you "threaten" an attack, that's right another free attack. improved crit/keen those suckers and you have a 1/4 chance to swing again.

Well I really like the High Sword Low Axe combo so lightning maces/feycraft scimitar probably won't be happening for me. I'll read up on that snap kick + warblade retraining thing though, thanks for the advise.

[Metahuman1]

Maybe the Mage Slayer feat? A couple of ranks in spell craft cross class to qualify won't hurt much.

[Phaederkiel]

I have very good experience with the deft opportunist feat. It is really strong in this kind of build. Do not forget that you can pull out a reach weapon with a quick-draw weapon crystal, etc.

Also, i can tell you that shock trooper is a good feat to combine with this. It is not as impressive as with an two-handed fighter, but still pretty damn impressive.

The third is knowledge devotion. To get it, fighter is a bit cumbersome. It is still a incredible feat, even if you can not really support it.

and, do not forget to put a little Zhentarim in the build, something the Original lacked (perhaps because it was not yet out). 3 more abilities to go to town with, + better skill list.


and, just for the sake of the argument:

Karmic strike and robilars gambit are a quite clear cut case:
Karmic strike triggers off a successful attack,
Robilars triggers off any attack attempt.
The two triggers are not the same thing, thus you get 2 AoO.

A DM might still not allow it, just make sure he knows he is going against the rules by doing so.

[JoeChip]

Maybe the Mage Slayer feat? A couple of ranks in spell craft cross class to qualify won't hurt much. I've seen this suggested before but is mage slayer really worth the feat? I've never taken that feat but it's uses seem limited, does it really come in handy that often?


I have very good experience with the deft opportunist feat. It is really strong in this kind of build. Do not forget that you can pull out a reach weapon with a quick-draw weapon crystal, etc.

Also, i can tell you that shock trooper is a good feat to combine with this. It is not as impressive as with an two-handed fighter, but still pretty damn impressive.

The third is knowledge devotion. To get it, fighter is a bit cumbersome. It is still a incredible feat, even if you can not really support it.

and, do not forget to put a little Zhentarim in the build, something the Original lacked (perhaps because it was not yet out). 3 more abilities to go to town with, + better skill list.


and, just for the sake of the argument:

Karmic strike and robilars gambit are a quite clear cut case:
Karmic strike triggers off a successful attack,
Robilars triggers off any attack attempt.
The two triggers are not the same thing, thus you get 2 AoO.

A DM might still not allow it, just make sure he knows he is going against the rules by doing so.

With Robilar's and Karmic stacking I would definitely want deft opportunist. However, without Karmic I'm just not sure if I would be getting enough attacks of opportunity to make deft opportunist worth it. Below are some builds that I'm thinking of now.

If the DM allows Robilar's and Karmic to stack I'd go with this:

Human Fighter 20

1. TWF, Dodge, WF (Longsword)
2. WF (Handaxe)
3. Combat Expertise
4. Improved Trip
5.
6. Improved TWF, High Sword Low Axe
7.
8. Combat Reflexes
9. Karmic Strike
10. Double Hit
11.
12. Robilar's Gambit, Mobility
13.
14. Elusive Target
15. Power Attack
16. Overpowering Attack
17.
18. Two-Weapon Rend, Deft Opportunist
19.
20. Sidestep

If the DM doesn't allow it I would either go with this build

Human Fighter 20

1. TWF, Dodge, WF (Longsword)
2. WF (Handaxe)
3. Combat Expertise
4. Improved Trip
5.
6. Improved TWF, High Sword Low Axe
7.
8. Combat Reflexes
9. Double Hit
10. Mobility
11.
12. Robilar's Gambit, Two-Weapon Rend
13.
14. Elusive Target
15. Power Attack
16. Overpowering Attack
17.
18. Improved Unarmed Strike, Defensive Throw
19.
20. Sidestep

or use the Fighter 18/Warblade 2 build that chaos_redefined suggested earlier.

And speaking of Warblades I've heard that the Stormguard Warrior feat from the Tome of Battle is also good for this build....

As for that Zhentarim Soldier substitution level, it might be good mechanically but for flavor and roleplaying reasons I'd probably never take it.