Alter Self in a core only game

[Con_Brio1993]

I've done some research into Alter Self and it seems the Humanoid forms available in a core only game are pretty lacking. No way to get fly, or a digging/climb speed from what I have seen. You get a few races (and if you didn't pick the right languages disguising as them won't help) with pretty minor skill bonuses, and merfolk which give you a swim speed. Overall it doesn't feel like the spell is as massively overpowered as people make it sound like. Is it even worth it for a Sorcerer to take in a core only game?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It's still useful as relatively long-duration defensive/early gish buff. Troglodytes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) get +6 natural armor and claw/claw/bite, for instance.

But you're right, it gets much more versatile with more books.

Edit: Also you still have most of the utility if you're a Tiefling or Aasimar. Gotta eat the LA though.

[Der_DWSage]

That also means you're learning a spell to turn yourself into a Troglodyte, though. I mean, you could just not shower for a week instead.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Sarcasm aside, you bring up a point: It can be a good thing that you don't get special attacks with Alter Self :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

In a Core only game, and no Outsider races, I'd use it more for subterfuge when trying to get into places that are a certain race only. For example, scouting out an Orc Horde encampment is a lot easier if you are, in fact, an orc.

[Rubik]

Um... Try turning into a human. I mean, the spell gives you racial bonus feats and skill bonuses, and that's 99% of what humans gain. And you can choose which ones you get with each casting, so long as you turn into a different human each time, which could be as little as changing where your freckles are placed.

[nedz]

Alter Self is only really broken if you are a non Humanoid.

Kobolds turning into Dragons is an old chestnut, though it is highly debatable as to whether this actually works.

It is still a good spell though, and quite flexible.

[Andezzar]

Kobolds turning into Dragons is an old chestnut, though it is highly debatable as to whether this actually works.Where is the debate there? IIRC there is only a debate whether dragonwrought kobolds are True Dragons. To turn into a dragon with Alter Self however you only need to have the type dragon. The dragonwrought feat definitely does that. A kobold would still be limited to tiny to large dragons.

A kobold without that feat (which is not avalable in core) is a humanoid and can only change into other humanoids.

[Killer Angel]

I've done some research into Alter Self and it seems the Humanoid forms available in a core only game are pretty lacking. No way to get fly, or a digging/climb speed from what I have seen. You get a few races (and if you didn't pick the right languages disguising as them won't help) with pretty minor skill bonuses, and merfolk which give you a swim speed. Overall it doesn't feel like the spell is as massively overpowered as people make it sound like. Is it even worth it for a Sorcerer to take in a core only game?

Even in core only, you can get bonuses to AC greater than with other low level spells, swim speed (compare it to water walk), bonuses to disguise and so on.
It's a single spell that lets you gain more things than a bunch of other spells combined.

[Vaz]

Alter Self isn't that useful with Outsiders I find; there are rarely low HD forms that are that good. Aberrations on the other hand give you forms with multiple arms for attacks.

Of course, Reserves of Strength messes up with that; ramp up your CL boosters and you're golden. But of course, neither are Aberrations Core, nor is RoS.

[Con_Brio1993]

In a Core only game, and no Outsider races, I'd use it more for subterfuge when trying to get into places that are a certain race only. For example, scouting out an Orc Horde encampment is a lot easier if you are, in fact, an orc.

Only if you took Orc as a language known.

[Chronos]

Quoth Rubik:

Um... Try turning into a human. I mean, the spell gives you racial bonus feats and skill bonuses, and that's 99% of what humans gain. And you can choose which ones you get with each casting, so long as you turn into a different human each time, which could be as little as changing where your freckles are placed.
The bonus feat, maybe (though I've seen arguments against it), but humans have no racial skill bonuses.

[Gwendol]

Only if you took Orc as a language known.

Why? Grunting should work fine. Or are orcs a particularly talkative race?

[Psyren]

In addition to the natural armor and natural attacks it also lets you impersonate various races. It's a pretty valuable 2nd-level spell in both 3.5 and PF.

And remember, you're still at the levels where things like climbing and swimming can kill you - shapeshifting helps with that stuff quite a bit.

[Curmudgeon]

The bonus feat, maybe (though I've seen arguments against it), but humans have no racial skill bonuses.
The arguments are basically about the Human race not having a monster entry with a superscript B (B) next to its bonus feat, and not using the word "bonus" at all.
1 extra feat at 1st level, because humans are quick to master specialized tasks and varied in their talents. See Chapter 5: Feats. However, those arguments are fairly weak. It's clear that a "feat at 1st level" only allows for feats the character can take at 1st level, though.

[Andezzar]

Why? Grunting should work fine. Or are orcs a particularly talkative race?Got any quotes supporting that? Just because a language sounds to us like grunting does not mean it actually is nonverbal communication. I cannot remember seeing anywhere that orcs are any less talkative than other races.

[Zombulian]

A fun thing to do - if you have one - is to use alter self on your familiar. There are some pretty great magical beasts out there within 5hd.

[Gwendol]

Got any quotes supporting that? Just because a language sounds to us like grunting does not mean it actually is nonverbal communication. I cannot remember seeing anywhere that orcs are any less talkative than other races.

I don't know what orc sounds to us as I've never heard one speaking. I object to the idea that the only way to pass as an orc after changing shape into one is to know the language. I don't speak to all I meet on the street.
Also, bluff is a skill, perhaps the infiltrater can pass himself off as mute?

[Psyren]

Only if you took Orc as a language known.

Orcs speak Common too though, and anyway, if you're infiltrating you shouldn't be chatty to begin with since it can easily blow your cover. Pretend you didn't hear anyone calling out to you, and make a beeline for your objective.

[Andezzar]

Why would they speak common amongst themselves?
Not answering might get the squishy mage into more trouble anyways, if the caller thinks he needs to put him in his place for his disrespect.

@Gwendol: Of course there may be ways around talking to people, but speaking the language will make infiltrating and bluffing a lot easier.

[Psyren]

Why would they speak common amongst themselves?

Good question. Maybe you're infiltrating their camp to free your imprisoned companions, and you tell the orc standing guard over them in loud Common that you want some time alone with the prisoners to teach them respect, describing in gruesome detail the savage beating you're about to inflict on them so that they understand every word. Or, maybe the orc camp has other savage humanoids around like goblins and kobolds, because the local warlord is planning an assault/raid on a nearby outpost.

I agree with you that knowing the language is preferable, but not knowing it isn't necessarily a deal-breaker either.



Not answering might get the squishy mage into more trouble anyways, if the caller thinks he needs to put him in his place for his disrespect.

True, but being revealed to not understand Orcish could cause as many problems. In the end it's going to be risky no matter what really.

[Diarmuid]

What are the cheapest ways to get Alter Self usable by classes that dont have it on their list other than scrolls?

Charged, or otherwise expendable are fine but prefer something other than a homebrew item of Alter Self 1/day. While my group has a little bit of money, we dont really have anyone willing to create custom items for us currently and the DM isn't terribly big on custom items unless he's specifically putting them into the world.

[hymer]

@ Diarmuid: I remember looking around for one, and I didn't come up with anything. People on forums quickly started arguing over what it would cost to make a custom item (unless they suggested things that give disguise self).
There are some elixirs of beetles and rhinos and things in MIC, but they don't come near the versatility, besides being a tad expensive in use.

Edit: Actually, there's the fairly gruesome Fleshshifter Armor in BoVD, but it's hardly ideal for any number of reasons.

[stack]

Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus)gets you metamorphosis, but that is a bit above what you are looking for.

[Psyren]

If the reason you want it is infiltration, how about a Hat of Disguise?

[Andezzar]

A hat of disguise uses disguise self. That spell is only a visual illusion. Any number of clues from other senses will give anyone a DC 11 WIL save. That is hardly good protection against detection.

[Rubik]

The bonus feat, maybe (though I've seen arguments against it), but humans have no racial skill bonuses.No matter how you look at it, humans get bonus skill ranks for their race, meaning they're still bonuses to skills.

[Andezzar]

No matter how you look at it, humans get bonus skill ranks for their race, meaning they're still bonuses to skills.No, they get bonus skill points. Whether these bonus skill points become skill ranks depends on where you spend them. Never do they get a skill bonus, which is a numerical value added to a skill check and is not a number of ranks or an attribute modifier.

[Rubik]

No, they get bonus skill points. Whether these bonus skill points become skill ranks depends on where you spend them. Never do they get a skill bonus, which is a numerical value added to a skill check and is not a number of ranks or an attribute modifier.But you used the word 'bonus' to describe those skill points. Why don't you think that 'bonus' = 'bonus'?

[Ravens_cry]

Only if you took Orc as a language known.
Like that's hard to do.

[Psyren]

A hat of disguise uses disguise self. That spell is only a visual illusion. Any number of clues from other senses will give anyone a DC 11 WIL save. That is hardly good protection against detection.

This is true - however, it is certainly better than nothing, or trying to disguise oneself as an Orc mundanely with no ranks in the skill.

[Andezzar]

But you used the word 'bonus' to describe those skill points. Why don't you think that 'bonus' = 'bonus'?I could just as well have said extra, which the SRD and the PHB do. Either word is just a qualifier for the skill points. Alter self does not give you skill point that are granted by a race.

[Chronos]

Quoth Diarmuid:

What are the cheapest ways to get Alter Self usable by classes that dont have it on their list other than scrolls?
Wands, eternal wands, minor schema. The wand or schema will require a UMD check, and the eternal wand will require UMD or that the user be an arcane caster.

[Gwendol]

I could just as well have said extra, which the SRD and the PHB do. Either word is just a qualifier for the skill points. Alter self does not give you skill point that are granted by a race.

Eh, Alter Self explicitly grants racial skill bonuses; it's one of the reasons it's useful.

[Zanos]

Alter Self isn't that useful with Outsiders I find; there are rarely low HD forms that are that good. Aberrations on the other hand give you forms with multiple arms for attacks.

Of course, Reserves of Strength messes up with that; ramp up your CL boosters and you're golden. But of course, neither are Aberrations Core, nor is RoS.
While not core, Dwarf Ancestor(MM IV) is an outsider form with +18 natural armor.

From a second level spell.

Yeah.

Troglodyte is probably the best core form if you're not looking to get hit. 22 AC at level 3 isn't shabby.(Mage armor ,+2 dex, alter self.)

[Karnith]

While not core, Dwarf Ancestor(MM IV) is an outsider form with +18 natural armor.
It's also available for free on the mothership (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3). Getting Large size out of it is pretty nice for some builds, too.

[Con_Brio1993]

Why? Grunting should work fine. Or are orcs a particularly talkative race?

I suppose it depends on GM. I'd imagine my past GM would make every single Orc suddenly super interested in talking to me and instantly suspicious of any mutes.


In addition to the natural armor and natural attacks it also lets you impersonate various races. It's a pretty valuable 2nd-level spell in both 3.5 and PF.

And remember, you're still at the levels where things like climbing and swimming can kill you - shapeshifting helps with that stuff quite a bit.

I'm a sorcerer (or wizard) who dumped strength and have a pitiful BAB. What are natural attacks doing for me besides missing?

[Psyren]

I'm a sorcerer (or wizard) who dumped strength and have a pitiful BAB. What are natural attacks doing for me besides missing?

You're moving the goalposts here - in the OP you only asked which forms are useful in a core-only game, not "which forms are useful for my weakling sorcerer who dumped strength specifically." The natural weapons aspect of shapeshifting is obviously more useful for gish-focused casters.

[NichG]

I feel like I'm the only one, but I always felt Alter Self was more about being able to change yourself to e.g. mimic the appearance of another person precisely without having the issues that illusion spells tend to have, and less about getting movement modes or natural armor.

It always seemed more like a spying tool than a combat tool.

[Zanos]

I feel like I'm the only one, but I always felt Alter Self was more about being able to change yourself to e.g. mimic the appearance of another person precisely without having the issues that illusion spells tend to have, and less about getting movement modes or natural armor.

It always seemed more like a spying tool than a combat tool.
It's both, and more. Which is why it's so good. For a class that has to prepare spells in advance, it's remarkably versatile for it's level.

[Psyren]

It always seemed more like a spying tool than a combat tool.

It's both - that's one of the reasons why it's so good, particularly for sorcerers, who need as many toolboxes as they can get.

Lurk'd by Zanos

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I suppose it depends on GM. I'd imagine my past GM would make every single Orc suddenly super interested in talking to me and instantly suspicious of any mutes.



I'm a sorcerer (or wizard) who dumped strength and have a pitiful BAB. What are natural attacks doing for me besides missing?So, your points, in order, are:
1. Metagaming DMs can counter things.
2. A str-dumping sorcerer in a core only game would merely get +6 to his AC for 10 minutes/level with a second level spell, and that the other benefits aren't as useful for his particular character.

Okay. It's still a useful spell. In a core game, you take Glitterdust first. In a non-core game, you have to think about it.

[hymer]

It was probably intended as such, NichG, it just happened to include a +6 bonus to AC, which is hard to turn down. Or maybe the makers thought people wouldn't want to go around looking like some reptililian humanoid, so it wouldn't be an issue. I guess they learned that one, considering the outlandish character options introduced later in 3.X.

Edit: Vainly attempts to shoo out the squad of swordsages, ninjas and psychic fellows.

[Psyren]

It depends on the campaign too; Glitterdust won't help you scale a cliff or cross a river.

[Rubik]

I suppose it depends on GM. I'd imagine my past GM would make every single Orc suddenly super interested in talking to me and instantly suspicious of any mutes.Use the spell to give yourself a nasty scar over your throat. When someone asks why you can't talk, give them a look and smack them on the back of the head.

[Curmudgeon]

Eh, Alter Self explicitly grants racial skill bonuses; it's one of the reasons it's useful.
Yes, it grants racial skill bonuses. However, Humans don't have any racial skill bonuses.
Skills Summary

If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get ½ rank per skill point. A Human can spend all their bonus skill points on individual cross-class skills, and as a consequence receive no bonus skill ranks. Skill bonuses are a function of skill ranks, and Humans don't get bonus skill ranks, nor does Alter Self specify any efficiencies in spending obtained skill points. You get only what the spell description states, and not more than that.

[Andezzar]

What he said.

[Coidzor]

Yes, it grants racial skill bonuses. However, Humans don't have any racial skill bonuses. A Human can spend all their bonus skill points on individual cross-class skills, and as a consequence receive no bonus skill ranks. Skill bonuses are a function of skill ranks, and Humans don't get bonus skill ranks, nor does Alter Self specify any efficiencies in spending obtained skill points. You get only what the spell description states, and not more than that.

Wait, what? If that's the case, then wouldn't that also mean that races which have a bonus to X skill can qualify Y levels earlier for Feats and Prestige Classes?

[Andezzar]

Wait, what? If that's the case, then wouldn't that also mean that races which have a bonus to X skill can qualify Y levels earlier for Feats and Prestige Classes?No, those (almost) always ask for a certain number of ranks. The modifier (usually positive so it's a bonus) you get on a skill check is the attribute modifier+skill ranks+other bonuses (racial, competence etc.).

[Coidzor]

No, those (almost) always ask for a certain number of ranks. The modifier (usually positive so it's a bonus) you get on a skill check is the attribute modifier+skill ranks+other bonuses (racial, competence etc.).

So how on earth is the basis for the argument that the racial skill bonus comes from getting ranks in the skill? :smallconfused: It seems like you'd be better off arguing that receiving a bonus skillpoint is different from receiving a racial bonus, because one is a skillpoint which requires investment and the other is a flat bonus of a defined type.

It's not like it's ever even defined how you'd be able to invest orphan skillpoints anyway...

Or did I just manage to completely misread him there.

[Andezzar]

I never said that. I only refuted that a racial bonus would allow ealier qualification for PrCs or feats.

Skill points are a construct that only exist during level up. They are used to acquire skill ranks (1:1 for class skill, 2:1 for cross class skills).
Skill ranks exist during play.
A racial bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#racialBonus) is a positive modifier to various rolls including skill checks and is granted by the character's race.

So we have three distinct game terms.

Humans get extra skill points, Alter self grants racial bonuses to skills. These two do not interact. So changing into a human will not give the caster extra skill points because those are not part of what Alter Self grants.

[Urpriest]

Or did I just manage to completely misread him there.

He said function, not single-variable function. Does that clear up your confusion?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It depends on the campaign too; Glitterdust won't help you scale a cliff or cross a river.A more utility-oriented sorcerer might still take Alter Self first (though core forms lack climb or fly speeds), but 3.5 Glitterdust is a pretty robust combat tool when you get it. Of course in a PF game you probably end up taking something else entirely, like Pyrotechnics.

[Coidzor]

He said function, not single-variable function. Does that clear up your confusion?

Actually I think I was just confusing the part about skill bonus. I thought he was discussing it within the context of the thread when he was discussing the actual number one adds when rolling rather than racial skill bonuses.

[ericgrau]

+6 natural armor but only for 10 min/level, or disguises or swimming. I wouldn't take it as my first 2nd level spell as a sorcerer but it could make a great secondary spell. Sorcerers have the advantage of being able to respam it as needed, which is especially nice with disguises or for doing more than one thing on the list on the same day without any advanced notice.

You don't often need a disguise or face water, so I'd focus on the natural armor and consider the other two extra occasional utility. Because of the duration it's limited mainly to dungeons, so it depends how often you do dungeons vs wilderness travel. And of course you should know mage armor too and stack them. While you're at it carry a couple 25 gp scrolls of shield in case you get an extra buff round and already used all your better buffs. Rare, but it's not much gp. Actually... for defense false life is way better because it's hour/level. So alter self is more like a good 4th 2nd level spell.

If you only want the disguises and swimming, I'd pick up a couple scrolls of alter self instead if learning it. Since those things are nice but quite uncommon.

[Artillery]

Alter Self isn't that useful with Outsiders I find; there are rarely low HD forms that are that good. Aberrations on the other hand give you forms with multiple arms for attacks.

Of course, Reserves of Strength messes up with that; ramp up your CL boosters and you're golden. But of course, neither are Aberrations Core, nor is RoS.

Elans are core. They could alter self to be a Grick for 4 tentacles and a bite, Gibbering Mouther gives +8 natural armor and 20ft swim speed. They are all core.

[ericgrau]

Core outsider alter self forms, click on column headers to sort:
≤4 HD: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16387702&postcount=57
{table=head] Creature | Appearance | Size | Land | Swim | Fly | Natural Armor | Humanoid Armor? | Damage
Juvenile Tojanida | Sea turtle + front claw + back claw | S | 10 | 60 | | 10 | No | 2d6 Bite, 1d4 Claws (2)
Triton | Merman, 2 scaly legs & finned "feet" | M | 5 | 40 | | 06 | Yes | Weapon
Minor Xorn | Fat, green, "feed me seymore" mouth, 1 eye underneath it, 3 long armed claws, 3 stubby legs | S | 20 | | | 12 | No | 2d8 Bite, 1d3 Claws (3)
Yeth Hound | Grey hyena | M | 40 | | | 08 | No | 1d8 Bite
Ravid | Silvery dragon headed snake with 1 arm & claw | M | 20 | | | 15 | No | 1d6 Tail, 1d4 Claw (1)
Azer | The Human Torch, except dwarf version | M | 30 | | | 06 | Yes | Weapon
Ice Mephit | Icy blue imp-winged humanoid | S | 30 | | 50 (perfect) | 04 | Yes (but small) | Weapon or 1d3 Claws (2)
Air Mephit | Sky blue imp-winged humanoid | S | 30 | | 60 (perfect) | 03 | Yes (but small) | Weapon or 1d3 Claws (2)
Water Mephit | Marine blue imp-winged humanoid | S | 30 | 30 | 40 (average) | 05 | Yes (but small) | Weapon or 1d3 Claws (2)
Salt Mephit | White imp-winged humanoid | S | 30 | | 40 (average) | 06 | Yes (but small) | Weapon or 1d3 Claws (2)
Formian Worker | Ant with pincer hands | S | 40 | | | 04 | Yes (but small) | 1d4 Bite
Flamebrother Salamandar | Goblin-headed snake body, flaming spines like burnt trees | S | 20 | | | 07 | Yes (torso) | Weapon, 1d4 Tail
Shadow Mastiff | Like Chinese dog statues, black fur | M | 50 | | | 03 | No | 1d6 Bite
Formian Warrior | Ant with pincer hands | M | 40 | | | 05 | Yes (torso) | 2d4 Sting, 1d6 Claws (2), 1d4 Bite
[/table]

≤3 HD:
{table=head] Creature | Appearance | Size | Land | Swim | Fly | Natural Armor | Humanoid Armor? | Damage
Juvenile Tojanida | Sea turtle + front claw + back claw | S | 10 | 60 | | 10 | No | 2d6 Bite, 1d4 Claws (2)
Triton | Merman, 2 scaly legs & finned "feet" | M | 5 | 40 | | 06 | Yes | Weapon
Minor Xorn | Fat, green, "feed me seymore" mouth, 1 eye underneath it, 3 long armed claws, 3 stubby legs | S | 20 | | | 12 | No | 2d8 Bite, 1d3 Claws (3)
Yeth Hound | Grey hyena | M | 40 | | | 08 | No | 1d8 Bite
Ravid | Silvery dragon headed snake with 1 arm & claw | M | 20 | | | 15 | No | 1d6 Tail, 1d4 Claw (1)
Azer | The Human Torch, except dwarf version | M | 30 | | | 06 | Yes | Weapon
Ice Mephit | Icy blue imp-winged humanoid | S | 30 | | 50 (perfect) | 04 | Yes (but small) | Weapon or 1d3 Claws (2)
Air Mephit | Sky blue imp-winged humanoid | S | 30 | | 60 (perfect) | 03 | Yes (but small) | Weapon or 1d3 Claws (2)
Water Mephit | Marine blue imp-winged humanoid | S | 30 | 30 | 40 (average) | 05 | Yes (but small) | Weapon or 1d3 Claws (2)
Salt Mephit | White imp-winged humanoid | S | 30 | | 40 (average) | 06 | Yes (but small) | Weapon or 1d3 Claws (2)
Formian Worker | Ant with pincer hands | S | 40 | | | 04 | Yes (but small) | 1d4 Bite
[/table] It does get way way better for an aasimar/tiefling. Up to 15 NA, perfect flight, or decent damage. Though arguably you can only get 7 NA and still have hands and speech to cast, since I don't see anything about ravids being able to talk. The polymorph forms are good too.

[Karnith]

Elans are core.
Generally speaking, "Core" refers to only the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual (i.e. the books with "Core Rulebook" written on their front covers). Elans are on the SRD, because they are OGC, but they aren't really Core.

[Dimcair]

I feel like I'm the only one, but I always felt Alter Self was more about being able to change yourself to e.g. mimic the appearance of another person precisely without having the issues that illusion spells tend to have, and less about getting movement modes or natural armor.

It always seemed more like a spying tool than a combat tool.

I agree. Flying at that lvl seems to powerfull. Our wizzard managed to get the spell pretty muh banned after turning into a werbear making our fighter look like fighting with balloon animals.

[Curmudgeon]

Our wizzard managed to get the spell pretty muh banned after turning into a werbear making our fighter look like fighting with balloon animals. It's more like the Wizard should be banned, rather than spell. The Wizard was cheating.
You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
"Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

[Gwendol]

Cumudgeon, I know what the spell does, it seemed others were unclear of the benefits.

[Dimcair]

It's more like the Wizard should be banned, rather than spell. The Wizard was cheating.

thanks for clarifying how exactly he was cheating.

At this point I would like to ask for furthet clarification.

What can and what can't you do with alterself?


When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.

Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength


This doesnt mention ANY natural armor OR ANY ClawClawBite attacks So how i read this is that you can turn into merfolk to get swimming, or an orc to get darkvision, or a troll to get darkvision and +2 strength. But even if you an troll, you dont get anything else,
along the road of natural armor, extra attacks etc.. Am I right?

[Con_Brio1993]

thanks for clarifying how exactly he was cheating.

At this point I would like to ask for furthet clarification.

What can and what can't you do with alterself?



This doesnt mention ANY natural armor OR ANY ClawClawBite attacks So how i read this is that you can turn into merfolk to get swimming, or an orc to get darkvision, or a troll to get darkvision and +2 strength. But even if you an troll, you dont get anything else,
along the road of natural armor, extra attacks etc.. Am I right?

You get natural armor. "You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind."

Natural armor happens to be a physical quality. As are claws and sharp teeth.

"Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. "

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm

[Telok]

A warforged scout Wizard with Alter Self can turn into a tiny wheeled animated object for a movement speed of 80. An elan can turn into a gibbering mouther with +8 NA and six attacks, although they only do one point of damage each. An outsider can turn into a four armed (with claw attacks) xill with +7 NA, or a xorn with a 2d8+(1.5 x Str bonus) bite and +12 NA.

If you are a monstrous humanoid you can be a Sahuagin, claw/claw/bite, +5 natural armor, Multiattack as a racial bonus feat, and bonuses to four or five useful skills. Since sahuagin mutants aren't a template they might be allowable as an Alter Self form, if you're willing to risk your DM's wrath. Because of the clause "You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities" it's also arguable that things like light blindness and the water dependancy might not apply to you.

[A_S]

This doesnt mention ANY natural armor OR ANY ClawClawBite attacks So how i read this is that you can turn into merfolk to get swimming, or an orc to get darkvision, or a troll to get darkvision and +2 strength. But even if you an troll, you dont get anything else,
along the road of natural armor, extra attacks etc.. Am I right?
You're reading the Pathfinder version of the spell; most of this thread is discussing the 3.5 version. Thus the discrepancies.

[Dimcair]

edit: yup, thanks, my bad!


edit2: so since pathfinder is often considered the 3.5v.2.0, isn't that proof enough that alter self in 3.5 was too powerfull?

[Psyren]

Note that PF Alter Self gives you all the natural attacks of your chosen form just like the 3.5 version does. It's part of the polymorph descriptor rather than the spell itself.

The major changes in the PF version are (1) you can only become a humanoid regardless of what you started off as, and (2) the natural armor you can get from the spell is capped.

[Angelalex242]

They also nerfed the duration. EXTREMELY nerfed duration.

[Psyren]

They also nerfed the duration. EXTREMELY nerfed duration.

Good call, forgot that one.

[Urpriest]

edit2: so since pathfinder is often considered the 3.5v.2.0, isn't that proof enough that alter self in 3.5 was too powerfull?

That's not how proof works. It could just as easily be proof that alter self in PF is too weak.

Edit: Anyway, Alter Self in PF does grant natural attacks. It's in the polymorph subschool description.