A well made fix for poison (dnd 3.5)

[Averis Vol]

Hey all. My group just got done with a year and a half long game with me at the DM seat, so knowing that, one of my players offered to DM for a bit, giving me some time to be a PC (Yay ^.^). So for this game, I'm going with a versatile combatant (Rapier and handcrossbow, with a secondary heavy repeating crossbow focus) that makes good use of poison.

....

Except, you know. 3.5 poisons. Yeah.

So, my google fu failed me, and as such, I come to the playground wondering if they might know of a good homebrewed poison system. I'm looking for something that gives a wider array of use then simple ability damage, and something that isn't overbearingly expensive. Anything you might have would be appreciated, but I'm looking for something easy to integrate with useful but not overpowered effects.

thanks :smallsmile:

[Spore]

Nothing fixed, but I'd take the PF Item Creation and Alchemist Poison rules and would apply them in form of home brew feats.

Brew Poison: You can brew every poison for half price and no XP cost.

Apply Poison: You can never accidentally poison yourself while applying poison to a weapon. If your ECL reaches 6, you can poison your weapon as a swift action once per round.

I am very unfamiliar with most 3.5 classes so consider this just a stub. You could very well reason with your DM to mix both feats together, if you're feat starved.

[Mcdt2]

I like this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255288) It does away with the initial/secondary damage model, and changes quite a few of them to have nondamage effects. As a whole, it also makes poison much more deadly, which I think is a plus.

[Silva Stormrage]

What exactly are you looking to change from the current poison system? Right now it is fairly decent in my opinion. You do need major creation or minor creation to make them completely cheaply but I don't think the current system is so bad it needs to be changed.

The poison handbook is pretty good: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2714

[pwykersotz]

What exactly are you looking to change from the current poison system? Right now it is fairly decent in my opinion. You do need major creation or minor creation to make them completely cheaply but I don't think the current system is so bad it needs to be changed.

The poison handbook is pretty good: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2714

The problem with the current system that I have always had is that it doesn't feel like poison. The system isn't a bad one if you are casually dealing with them and you want your drow or monstrous centipede to have a little more bite. It becomes a problem when you want them to play a more major role in your campaign and realize that the whole system feels tacked on and uninvolved.


I like this one. It does away with the initial/secondary damage model, and changes quite a few of them to have nondamage effects. As a whole, it also makes poison much more deadly, which I think is a plus.

That's a pretty great system. Thanks for pointing it out!

[Devronq]

I always didnt like poison system at all and for this reason. I first level character could drink a descent amount of reasonably strong poison and have it have no effect. In real life people are bitten by poisonous snakes that usually kill and not die from them but I'm sure they are weakened and not just walk away like its nothing.
To fix this poison should be save for partial not save negates. Not sure exactly how to accomplish this but that's how I see a fix.

[Averis Vol]

What exactly are you looking to change from the current poison system? Right now it is fairly decent in my opinion. You do need major creation or minor creation to make them completely cheaply but I don't think the current system is so bad it needs to be changed.

The poison handbook is pretty good: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2714

I'm just looking for a way to cheapen it without having to resort to magic or psionics. I'm not anti magic, but it miffs me a bit that magic has to do everything, so I figured I'd look for a small fix, maybe widen the range of uses and lower the costs to a reasonable amount. I have seen the poison handbook, it's one of the things that got me onto a poisoner in the first place, I was just wondering if anyone knew of some reliable poison fix that would let me use it from level two or three up. maybe scaling with level, but you can't win every fight.

@Mcdt2: Ernir does a good job of increasing the lethality of poison, but that's not necessarily what I'm looking for. That just increases kill potential, and while useful, is not quite what I'm looking for.

[Spore]

I always didnt like poison system at all and for this reason. I first level character could drink a descent amount of reasonably strong poison and have it have no effect.

Most chemicals are considered poisonous and they won't kill you until exposed to a certain degree. There is even limited radiation to get rid of pesticides in fresh produce. Never underestimate what the human(oid) body can take.

[Devronq]

Most chemicals are considered poisonous and they won't kill you until exposed to a certain degree. There is even limited radiation to get rid of pesticides in fresh produce. Never underestimate what the human(oid) body can take.

Sorry I guess it's worded poor I meant more like if you drank cyanide something is going to happen, your going to die maybe but at very least you'll get sick. The strongest healthiest person is still never going to have zero anything happen. Those examples you said I think are just such a small dose you wouldn't feel ot

[Vedhin]

Well, I'm currently trawling through the 3.X books looking at poisons for a character I'm making, so here are a few low-cost highlights:

Vapid Leaf Extract. DC16 Dazed/2d6 Int. No duration is listed for the dazing, but it defaults to 1 round. 250gp, Arms & Equipment Guide.

Wild Dwarf Knockout Poison. DC14 Slowed/Unconscious. Slow is as the spell, lasts 5 rounds. 150gp, Player's Guide to Faerun.

Wraith Sheen. DC16 1d2 Con/1d2 Con. 150gp, Arms & Equipment Guide.

[Spore]

Sorry I guess it's worded poor I meant more like if you drank cyanide something is going to happen, your going to die maybe but at very least you'll get sick. The strongest healthiest person is still never going to have zero anything happen. Those examples you said I think are just such a small dose you wouldn't feel ot

Cyanide is the equivalent of Black Lotus Extract which deals 3d6 inital damage. So NO you wouldn't survive for long. (For once you can trust my words as I am a Chemistry teacher and Cyanides are simple organic chemicals ranging from deadly to needed for proper body functions).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

An easy fix for poison is to make it deal secondary damage every minute until it's cured. Multiple applications of the same poison after the first still deal initial damage, but instead of secondary damage they increase the DC of the initial poison's secondary damage by 1.

For example, the characters are fighting several Giant Bees (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantBee.htm). The Rogue gets stung and has to save vs the poison's initial damage at a DC 11. One minute later, and every minute after, he must save vs the poison's secondary damage at a DC of 11. He gets stung a second time, has to save vs the poison's initial damage at a DC 11, and the DC of the above secondary damage increases to 12 each time. After a third sting he has to save vs its initial damage at a DC 11 again, and the DC for the above secondary damage is increased to 13 each time. Things are looking grim, since this poison deals Con damage and the Rogue has a poor Fort save.

If you want to make the poison run out after a while, make the DC for the secondary damage automatically be reduced by 1 for every instance of secondary damage after the first. The above Rogue who suffered the initial damage three times would suffer his first secondary damage at a DC of 13, then two minutes after the first sting the secondary damage would be at a DC of 12, then after another minute a DC 11, etc. It would last a total number of minutes and instances of secondary damage equal to the total DC.

[Tar Palantir]

Cyanide is the equivalent of Black Lotus Extract which deals 3d6 inital damage. So NO you wouldn't survive for long. (For once you can trust my words as I am a Chemistry teacher and Cyanides are simple organic chemicals ranging from deadly to needed for proper body functions).

And what about the fact that it's impossible for a Con 10 Commoner to die for a dose of arsenic even if they fail both saves, and have almost even odds of surviving two doses after failing both saves?

[JaronK]

Obviously, one dose is the kind you need to slowly poison somebody. Just triple the dosage and it's almost guaranteed to be lethal.

JaronK

[Devronq]

Cyanide is the equivalent of Black Lotus Extract which deals 3d6 inital damage. So NO you wouldn't survive for long. (For once you can trust my words as I am a Chemistry teacher and Cyanides are simple organic chemicals ranging from deadly to needed for proper body functions).

Even so lets pretend the DC is 20 even a lv.1 commoner has a chance of walking away with zero anything happening to him, which is where I think the fault is.

[Jack_Simth]

Except, you know. 3.5 poisons. Yeah.
It's just one of those things done for game balance.

If they make poison cheap and effective it becomes pretty much the only worthwhile nonmagical attack option (at least until just about everything is poison-immune). Which, you know, is bad. So the game designers didn't do that. They may have gone overboard on the low side in their choice of effectiveness vs. price, but at least there's a reason for it.

[Spore]

Even so lets pretend the DC is 20 even a lv.1 commoner has a chance of walking away with zero anything happening to him, which is where I think the fault is.

Case in point. Poisons should have diminished effects then. Good example.


If they make poison cheap and effective it becomes pretty much the only worthwhile nonmagical attack option (at least until just about everything is poison-immune).

Make it expensive and effective then. The best plots and stories are created with the use of poison. Romeo and Juliet, intrigues, backstabbing etc.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cost isn't really as big a hindrance with poison as it appears. With Craft: Poisonmaking from Complete Adventurer you can make poison for only 1/6 the cost if you can get your hands on the base component. A Druid using Summon Nature's Ally and/or Wild Shape to milk poison from various creatures for use in poisonmaking is a decent choice, especially given the free venom immunity at 9th level.

While poison may be mostly limited to ability damage and sometimes unconsciousness, there are plenty of other things that cause a variety of other effects. For example, there's Aboleth Mucous in Savage Species which causes suffocation, the Dust Eggshell Grenade in Oriental Adventures causes blindness, and various other items with effects can all be found in Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101). You can also get single-use items of spells for various effects such as Blindness, Paralysys, hit point damage every round over a duration, etc.

I'd say what poisons need is something to make them more dangerous. Not immediately more dangerous, but something that urgently must be dealt with. I've already given a suggestion to this effect, which will definitely make poison a more potent tool or dangerous hazard for any game.

[Captnq]

Well, poison is something you put on weapons.
So, feel free to take a glance at the poison section of my Weapon Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9053.msg183871#msg183871). You'll find I did most of the work for you. Oh, look at the section marked WSAs (Weapon Special Abilities) and key word search 'POISON', the optimization section has some insights.

And Assassination (+1 Bonus) always works well for anyone who enjoys poison. It's a class feature you can buy with gold.

[Averis Vol]

It's just one of those things done for game balance.

If they make poison cheap and effective it becomes pretty much the only worthwhile nonmagical attack option (at least until just about everything is poison-immune). Which, you know, is bad. So the game designers didn't do that. They may have gone overboard on the low side in their choice of effectiveness vs. price, but at least there's a reason for it.

Yea, fair enough there. I was just hoping for more things like the lower scale condition effects, like the drow sleep poison, exhaustion, maybe stun.... that kind of stuff. As the poisons are with their huge ability damage I definitely agree that the prices are fine, as 2d6 con is ridiculous, and can almost end an encounter on it's own without the secondary. I'm actually hoping for nerfed poisons so they can become a bit more abundant.

[Averis Vol]

An easy fix for poison is to make it deal secondary damage every minute until it's cured. Multiple applications of the same poison after the first still deal initial damage, but instead of secondary damage they increase the DC of the initial poison's secondary damage by 1.

For example, the characters are fighting several Giant Bees (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantBee.htm). The Rogue gets stung and has to save vs the poison's initial damage at a DC 11. One minute later, and every minute after, he must save vs the poison's secondary damage at a DC of 11. He gets stung a second time, has to save vs the poison's initial damage at a DC 11, and the DC of the above secondary damage increases to 12 each time. After a third sting he has to save vs its initial damage at a DC 11 again, and the DC for the above secondary damage is increased to 13 each time. Things are looking grim, since this poison deals Con damage and the Rogue has a poor Fort save.

If you want to make the poison run out after a while, make the DC for the secondary damage automatically be reduced by 1 for every instance of secondary damage after the first. The above Rogue who suffered the initial damage three times would suffer his first secondary damage at a DC of 13, then two minutes after the first sting the secondary damage would be at a DC of 12, then after another minute a DC 11, etc. It would last a total number of minutes and instances of secondary damage equal to the total DC.

That's a very good idea, I'll bring it up to my DM. He's stated a willingness to more or less let me tear poison out of dead creatures, so there's that. Another huge problem has always been that balancing point between lethality, damage, duration and price. This is a surprisingly simple idea that helps with lethality and duration.

[Akal Saris]

Well, I'm glad that people still find my handbook useful :)

Quick fix ideas: (I am just brainstorming here...)
1) Why not rule that poison always does its minimum dice damage even on a successful save, so black lotus would always do a minimum 3/3 damage?
2) In addition or separately, perhaps have poison rolls made again each hour for X hours to reflect that poison typically affects somebody for more than 1 minute?
3) Since those changes both strengthen poisons, maybe reduce the initial dice size of poisons by 1 to counter-balance it? (So 3d6 --> 3d4, though that weakens its in-combat usage).

[Vedhin]

Well, I'm glad that people still find my handbook useful :)

Well, I'm building an Alchemist Savant right now, so I actually have it open in a different tab. Contrary to what it may seem, I think that Create Alchemical Mixture is the best feature of the class, with Brew Spellvial a close second. Mainly because combining alchemical item+poison is really nice. Atramen Oil is basically +4 DC, but my favorite is Venomous Fire+Sinmaker's Surprise. Over 13 rounds, it can deal 2d6 fire, 3d6 acid, and 8d6 Con damage to one opponent. That averages out to 7 fire, 10.5 acid, and 21 Con damage. The price is steep, but it's only slightly more expensive than Black Lotus. My character is also using a Gnome Calculus from the Arms & Equipment Guide for his spellvials/alchemical items. It gives me extra range, and allows me to stick enhancements on it, like Assasination and Virulent.

[NichG]

In my last campaign I had rules for custom-building poisons on a point-buy system based on your rank in Craft(Alchemy). By spending some resources on research you can design a poison whose total point value adds up to your Craft(Alchemy) rank, and the base DC of the poison is 10+(rank/2).

The different types (inhaled, ingested, etc) modify the number of ranks you have to spend. Ingested gives you +3 ranks, whereas inhaled costs 4 ranks more than normal.

The 'default' poison does 1d4 ability damage to one ability as primary and secondary. If you want to increase the die size it costs 3 ranks for the primary and 2 rank for the secondary.

Aside from that though, the more interesting things are stuff like:

- Subtle (2 ranks): The poison mimics some common ailment until its too late. People who are poisoned by this are not aware that they have been poisoned or have made a Fort save - it requires a Heal check opposing your Craft(Alchemy) to detect the poison.

- Rapid Onset (8 ranks): The secondary effects kick in two rounds after the initial poisoning, rather than 1 minute later.

- Cursed Venom (12 ranks): The poison pierces poison immunity.

There are also things that add various status conditions, empty out casters' spell-slots, etc. You could easily have things like an augment that lets the poison do half-damage on a successful save versus the primary.