All the negative levels!

[Mathemagician7]

Hi playgrounders. I need your help. I'm looking to find a way to inflict tons of negative levels in pathfinder (so no fell drain metamagic). Ideally I'd like to do it as safely as possible, and at as low a level as possible.

I'm aware of several avenues, but I want to know if you guys have any better suggestions.

methods I've already considered:

Magus:
Use the feat Extra Arcana at level 11 to pick up spell blending and grab enervation off the wizard list, and then either cast it regularly (through a keen scimitar/rapier/katana etc. . .using the close range arcana to cast it as a touch spell) or use wand wielder to use it from a wand at 420gp per charge. Crit 30% of the time for extra level draining fun!

Wizard:
Good old fashioned wizard. Can do it at level 7 by simply casting the spell. Grab necromancy specialist for an extra cast/day. Or use sin magic specialist for 2 extra/day. Consider using a familiar and a wand for extra casts/round.

Cleric:
undeath domain grants enervation as a 4th level spell, (better than the loss domain which grants it as a 5th). Can use cleric chassis to forge a lifedrinker and be a Dhampir to avoid the negative levels from using Lifedrinker (can ignore negative levels as long as you don't have as many as your HD - when you die - and those gained from using the life drinker fade in 1 hour, so pretty good)
Any melee type:
can use master craftsman to make the lifedrinker without need for knowing enervation or being a spellcaster if you just have a high enough craft bonus. Likely would have to wait until level 10 when the bonus from skill focus doubles.
Lastly, custom magic items:
The rules for how to do this are a bit murky. It seems to me that one aught to be able to create a weapon that cast enervation (at least once per round) for 2000*4*7 . . . which is pricey, and spell resistance becomes an issue. Also, the rules aren't totally clear on this.

Can we do better?

[Urpriest]

For the caster options, remember to use metamagic, mitigated by things like Spell Perfection. Quicken, Empower, and Maximize should be your go-to options there.

[Silva Stormrage]

While not more negative levels, life drain and spell drain from libris mortis are amazing from negative level builds assuming you can qualify for them.

[Mathemagician7]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Yes of course spell perfection is the plan, long term. I won't even try to list all the ways it is awesome. I don't know of a way to get it prior to level 15 while starting as a PC race, though. Eventually it'll rock. I'm trying to focus on levels 5-14 though.

Side note: I'd be more interested in grabbing thanatopic spell and piercing spell to get around those pesky monsters that can avoid the negative levels altogether before worrying about pouring on extra neg levels via empower and maximize and such to creatures that are already vulnerable.

Silva - I'm not sure my DM will allow Libris Mortis material . . .if he does . . well . . . the sky's the limit really. So far this is pathfinder only. I bet I could talk him into allowing black lore of moil from . . . what was that complete arcane? That might allow for some interesting options with dazing spell metamagic, once you add some damage to enervate.

P.S. I failed to mention the soul eater PrC deliberately, since I believe it requires an evil alignment, which my DM generally frowns on.

So far I'm torn, btw. The magus could forge himself a small sized lifedrinker and STILL channel enervates through it . . .terrifying.

A dhampir ranger using the lifedrinker could max undead as his favored enemy so I'd still have a way to fight them, and level drain everything else.

At the end of the day I'm leaning strongly towards cleric. He can make respectable use of the lifedrinker (no full BAB, but he can stand in melee a lot better than a wizard), and he can get enervate at level 7 - the earliest possible - as a domain spell. If I pick up greater spell spec at 9th level, I can swap out any spell I want for enervation afterwards. Awesome.

I'm thinking undeath domain (to get enervation) and maybe the magic domain - hand of the acolyte could be pretty sweet with a life-drinker. Although I need to look more thoroughly through the domains and subdomains. . . there are some pretty awesome ones, and of course the domain spells are pretty important as well.

I'm still anxious to see if anyone can top this.

[Captnq]

Not familiar with PF.

I find a chain metamagic rod, sonic snap, and Fell Drain puts the fear of DM in any group of players. And it's only 2nd level.

Everyone take one point of sonic damage.
Everyone take a negative level.

BOY do players start buys sonic energy resistance REALLY FAST when you pull THAT one.

HERE (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4571.msg80865#msg80865) is my thread of 3.5 level draining spells.

[Urpriest]

If you're doing a Cleric build, definitely go Theologian. You want to be able to prepare Enervation in more than just domain slots.

[Mathemagician7]

If you're doing a Cleric build, definitely go Theologian. You want to be able to prepare Enervation in more than just domain slots.

Wow, that's really cool, thanks Urpriest. I think I'll be able to get by with greater spell specialization, although that does require 13 int, and two other feats . . . and I have to wait until 9th level (5th level spells). . . . maybe that's not such a good idea.

On the other hand, losing a domain is big price to pay. I'll have to look through them more thoroughly and see if there are any domain powers/spells that I want badly enough to spend 3 feats, pay for a higher intelligence, and wait 2 extra levels with my casting flexibility.

All that said, I plan to make a lifedrinker at around level 8, so getting a bazillion casts/day of enervation is not as crucial as it might otherwise be.

Lifedrinker costs ~40K, so to craft costs 20K . . . which can be reduced as much as 30% with the right restrictions to 14K. At lvl 7, a PC should have around 23.5K, and at lvl 8 around 33K . . . so I'm hoping to have one by then.

[Spore]

Wow, that's really cool, thanks Urpriest. I think I'll be able to get by with greater spell specialization, although that does require 13 int, and two other feats . . . and I have to wait until 9th level (5th level spells). . . . maybe that's not such a good idea.

Dealing 1d4 negative levels with NO save is totally worth 13 Int and two feats. It's the cleric equivalent of any "Improved Combat Maneuver". Except it's "Improved DEATH".

It is a great debuff on the BBEG, it actually does 5-20 damage and the debuffs - unlike others - stack heavily.

[Ansem]

Sorcerer/whatever/Ultimate Magus and meta the hell out of enervating touch.

[Ansem]

If you're doing a Cleric build, definitely go Theologian. You want to be able to prepare Enervation in more than just domain slots.

What book is Theologian in?

[TiaC]

Use the Playing a Monster rules and play a dread wight synthesist or just a wight. Cairn Wights get to channel energy drain through their sword.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Your magus idea is a good one. 2d4 temporary negative levels on a crit...

[Mathemagician7]

As always, thanks for all of the suggestions and feedback!

Thisisacat: Cool idea, I hadn't considered the Cairn wight. I'm trying to avoid playing as a monster (and particularly as undead) for the same reason I'm trying to avoid custom magic weapons that cast enervation on an attack (should only cost 56K . . . craftable for about 20K): To avoid having a DM throw a rulebook at my head :smallwink:

I also want to avoid playing an evil character, as my DM tends to frown on those.

Ninjaxenomorph: Did you see the idea of crafting a small-sized lifedrinker, so it can be wielded in one hand? . . . and then still channel enervations through. Sure you don't crit as often, but you cause more average negative levels, especially when you consider that the enervation is only on the first attack, but the lifedrinker drains two on EACH HIT. Then if you do manage to crit. . . . yowser. That said, I think that build is overspecialized and will be too weak in too many other ways, and would be a poor option overall.

To all: It looks like I'm going to wind up going cleric, and so now it looks like the big question is to choose between Theologian (undead subdomain) or Greater Spell Specialization: enervation.

There are pros and cons to each, but a lot of it comes down to what I can get from having a second domain, to justify spending all of those feats and waiting until level 9 before I can cast enervation more than once per day (notwithstanding pearls of power).

Do you guys have any suggestions for a second domain, if I go that route? what powers/ off-list spells would be worth taking it for? Let me know what ideas you have.

P.S. The original question is still open - if you can find a better way to do this than dhampir cleric with the undeath domain & a self-made life-drinker, let me know.

thanks!

[Urpriest]

What book is Theologian in?

Ultimate Magic apparently. Note that all Pathfinder stuff is on the PFSRD anyway.