Spirit Shaman: What If

[UmpteenthDoctor]

What if you gave a Spirit Shaman access to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list?

What if you added the Shaman spells from Oriental Adventurers to their available spell list?

What if like the OA Shaman you give the Spirit Shaman Two Domains at level 1 and a third at level 11?

What would these do for them?

EDIT:
As well as maybe trading off a few of the Spirit Shaman's Spirit only focused abilities.

[Urpriest]

Spirit Shaman is on the cusp of Tier 1 as-is. Giving it the Wiz/Sorc or OA Shaman list would definitely push it over to Tier 1. Domains might too. All three, and you're arguably Tier 0, and certainly more powerful than most Tier 1 classes.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Is that just due to the way it works its spells or is it the other features too?

[Nettlekid]

I've never quite understood Spirit Shaman. It knows X spells that it can spontaneously cast like a Sorcerer, but it changes what those spells are day by day by praying? Is that how it works?

[Karnith]

I've never quite understood Spirit Shaman. It knows X spells that it can spontaneously cast like a Sorcerer, but it changes what those spells are day by day by praying? Is that how it works?
Yes, that's basically how it works. A Spirit Shaman can only retrieve a certain number of spells per day (topping out at 3 per spell level), but can choose her spells retrieved each day from the Druid list. She is then able to spontaneously cast the retrieved spells for the rest of the day.

Also, Spirit Shamans don't really "pray" so much as "meditate and send out their spirit guides to bargain with spirits." But, semantics.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Karnith has it right, I was thinking of either adding the Shaman list from OA due to it giving just a little wider array of spells but not very much. Most of those spells exist on the shaman's list already.

The Spirit Shaman does have a cool idea to it and I really like the idea of the spirit guide and the conversing with spirits and that, but the Spirit Shaman is almost too focused on just dealing with spirits and kinda cramps its style with campaigns if they do not focus a lot of the spirits.

The OA Shaman had a good balance.

[jindra34]

I've never quite understood Spirit Shaman. It knows X spells that it can spontaneously cast like a Sorcerer, but it changes what those spells are day by day by praying? Is that how it works?

And metamagicing a spell makes it count as a different spell known.

[Big Fau]

Is that just due to the way it works its spells or is it the other features too?

Spells mostly. The class features are nice, but non-game breaking. Being able to cherry pick spells every day from the Druid, Sor/Wiz, and Cleric Domains would be incredible.

For reference, the limited number of spells known is the primary reason the Sorcerer isn't Tier 1. Spirit Shamans don't have actual spells known, as they can change them daily.

[Urpriest]

Is that just due to the way it works its spells or is it the other features too?

The way it works its spells is just a bit below Tier 1, and is only that because the Druid spell list is a bit weaker than the Sorc/Wiz or Cleric lists. Giving it access to a stronger list removes that consideration.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I was not saying making it all the spell lists.

I meant either or.

Well the OA shaman I think provides a handful of new spells each level which would make it seem a little better.

Also the Domains I agree could be taken only from OA which had different domains from the normal ones.

I am curious because the Spirit Shaman is very interesting to me but I don't want to focus to much on the spirits.

[Grim Reader]

I've always wondered what happens if you jink one into Sand Shaper. Desert Insight specifically adds its spells known to any spontaneous casters spells known...but the spirit shaman spells known changes every day....

[Zombulian]

So forgive me, for I know very little about the Spirit Shaman, but when I saw how the spells known aspect worked it got me thinking. Can you get Alternate Source Spell or something to get yourself into Rainbow Servant and "know" Cleric spells as well as Druid spells?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

If anyone has Oriental Adventurers if you could go to page 84 and see if you think adding those spells, and the following Domains to the Druid list would make it more powerful or versatile then the Wizard or Cleric spell lists please let me know.

[limejuicepowder]

Unless you're going a super-high powered campaign, I really don't think the spirit shaman needs a boost. Yes a lot of it's abilities are spirit-related, but the strongest of them are only spiritual because of fluff. Abilities like Follow the Guide, Spirit Form, Guide Magic, Recall Spirit, and Favored of the Spirits are all strong to extremely strong, and they are effective no matter what you're facing.

The rest of their abilities are just more situational - but when they can be used, they are also very strong.

On top of all that, the druid spell list is rather awesome. As an extra bonus, spirit shamans get the best of prepared and spontaneous casting in exchange for a little MADness.

Don't get tied up on the fluff: spirit shaman are really really good.

[Waker]

Others have pointed out that the Shaman is fine as is. If you wanted a weird caster who has access to the Sorc/Wiz list and some domains, you might like the Sha'ir from Dragon Compendium.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Question Is this maybe to powerful.

1: Animal Companion. Spirit Guide, Domains
2: Wild Empathy, Spirit Sight
3: Turn or Rebuke Undead
4: Blessings of the Spirit, Bonus Feat
5: Spirit's Favor, Follow the Guide
6: Ghost Warrior
7: -
8: Bonus Feat, Guide Meld (See Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x))
9:-
10: Guide Magic
11: Third Domain
12: Bonus Feat
13: -
14: Recall Spirit
15: -
16: - Bonus Feat
17: Spirit Journey
18: -
19: Favored of the Spirit
20: Spirit Who Walks, Bonus Feat

The abilities would match whats on the Spirit Shaman or the Shaman from OA
Using the OA Shaman's spells per day list with the Spirit Shaman's spells bestowed feature and numbers.

Adding the spells not already on the Druid list onto a special Shaman only list kinda like Sorcerer Only spells.

I am just curious how powerful this would be. I like a good bit of them and yes the Spirit Shaman has some very good class features but like I said they strongly favor just spirits as in ghosts. If you are running a game where ghosts are aplenty then the Spirit Shaman will be great. If you are in a setting where Ghosts and Incorporeal beings are few and far between you are just an inferior Druid without the wild shape or animal companion.

[Karnith]

Spirit Shaman is fine on its own, and adding the Shaman spell list and domains would be a fairly big power boost, particularly at higher levels. Some notable spells that would/could be added include Invisibility, Animate Dead, Fly, Dimension Door, Divine Power, Polymorph, Righteous Might, Ethereal Jaunt as a 5th level spell, Teleport, Etherealness as a 6th-level spell (what?), Harm, Plane Shift, Wall of Iron, Acid Fog, Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos, Greater Teleport, Antimagic Field, Giant Size, Polymorph Any Object, Astral Projection, Gate, Miracle, Foresight, and Time Stop.

That's a lot of power, way more than whatever you'd be giving up through Spirit Shaman class features.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

And what if you gave it the Shaman spell list as its own unique spell list, maybe adding a few spells from the druid onto the Shaman spell list to give it more depth so to make the changing spells be actually worth something.

[Urpriest]

I was not saying making it all the spell lists.

I meant either or.

Well the OA shaman I think provides a handful of new spells each level which would make it seem a little better.

Also the Domains I agree could be taken only from OA which had different domains from the normal ones.

I am curious because the Spirit Shaman is very interesting to me but I don't want to focus to much on the spirits.

The thing about OA Shaman, it may not get the sort of raw splatbook support that Cleric does, but it's got a lot of the Core powerhouses from the Cleric list. On the high level end, it's got Astral Projection, Gate, and Miracle. It's got the Spirit Ally line, which is if anything potentially more powerful than the Planar Ally line given just how many creatures fall under its rubric. They've got most of the good Cleric divinations, they've got Polymorph...and with domains, they get most of the classic Clericzilla buff spells as well.

[Zombulian]

The thing about OA Shaman, it may not get the sort of raw splatbook support that Cleric does, but it's got a lot of the Core powerhouses from the Cleric list. On the high level end, it's got Astral Projection, Gate, and Miracle. It's got the Spirit Ally line, which is if anything potentially more powerful than the Planar Ally line given just how many creatures fall under its rubric. They've got most of the good Cleric divinations, they've got Polymorph...and with domains, they get most of the classic Clericzilla buff spells as well.

They have both Divine Power and Giant Size.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Every thread I can find from OA Shaman says its Tier 3 low Tier 2 at best and one even suggested that is with adding spells to its list.

Why does the Spells Bestowed scare people so much? I mean the cleric doesn't have it and its tier 1 but no one seems to complain that Shaman from OA has all its spells when it reaches that level.

[Karnith]

Also, Etherealness as a 6th-level spell. Now, that's not particularly overpowering, and I know that you can get it through Lesser Planar Binding, but does anyone else find it really odd that Shamans get it so early?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Ghost Warrior (Su): Beginning at 6th level, a spirit shaman confers the ghost touch special ability (see Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions, page 223 of the Dungeon Master's Guide) to any weapon she holds for as long as she holds it. She also becomes resistant to the touch attacks of incorporeal creatures, and may use her normal Armor Class (not her touch AC) against any touch attack delivered by an incorporeal creature.

Maybe your thinking of
Spirit Form (Su): At 9th level and higher, a spirit shaman learns how to temporarily transform herself into a spirit. Once per day, as a standard action, she can make herself incorporeal for up to 1 minute.

While incorporeal, a spirit shaman gains all the advantages of the incorporeal subtype (see the Glossary of the Monster Manual), including immunity to all nonmagical attack forms, a 50% chance to ignore damage from any corporeal source, and the ability to enter or pass through solid objects. The spirit shaman loses any armor or natural armor bonus to AC, but gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum +1).

She has no Strength score against corporeal creatures or objects and cannot make physical attacks against them, but she gains the ability to make a melee touch attack (add the spirit shaman's Dexterity modifier to her attack roll) that deals 1d6 points of damage to a corporeal target. This effect is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

At 15th level and higher, a spirit shaman can use her spirit form twice per day. At 20th level, she can use this ability three times per day.

Which if you noticed I removed off my list of it, I agree its powerful.

[Urpriest]

Every thread I can find from OA Shaman says its Tier 3 low Tier 2 at best and one even suggested that is with adding spells to its list.


I've never heard it referred to as less than Tier 1. People think of Wu Jen as Tier 3 sometimes (I tend to disagree), but OA Shaman is definitely Tier 1.


snip

Karnith was referring to the Shaman list, not the Spirit Shaman class.

I think the question here is, what sort of balance point are you aiming for? Do you want your retooled Spirit Shaman to be Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3? (Or lower I suppose, but it doesn't seem like that's what you want).

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I almost never find it on a tier list, and the only time I see it on Tier 3 or at least mentioned as a Tier 3 due to its limited spell class.

Or do you just think anything with 9th level spells are Tier 2-1?

I do not care about Tiers, Honestly I do not use the tier system as its the player that matters. A Wizard can suck and a Bard can kick butt depending on the player.

I want to retool the Spirit Shaman to be more like the OA in that its not fully focused on Ghosts.

Maybe I should use the OA Shaman as a base and using the Errata from WotC to add spells to their list and then maybe add a feature or two from Spirit Shaman to make it more 3.5 ready.

[Urpriest]

I almost never find it on a tier list, and the only time I see it on Tier 3 or at least mentioned as a Tier 3 due to its limited spell class.

It is mentioned pretty infrequently, I'll give you that.


Or do you just think anything with 9th level spells are Tier 2-1?

Specific ones, and the lead-up to them. Basically, any class that eventually can pull Tippy cheese is Tier 1.


I do not care about Tiers, Honestly I do not use the tier system as its the player that matters. A Wizard can suck and a Bard can kick butt depending on the player.

The Tiers, much like gravity, aren't something you use so much as something that's there. Classes happen to fall into categories. But in any case, the main question is whether what you're aiming for has anything to do with the Tier System, which I acknowledge it might not.


I want to retool the Spirit Shaman to be more like the OA in that its not fully focused on Ghosts.

Eh, the OA Shaman is still pretty heavily focused on Spirits. Spirit Shaman is a bit more narrow, but not dramatically.


Maybe I should use the OA Shaman as a base and using the Errata from WotC to add spells to their list and then maybe add a feature or two from Spirit Shaman to make it more 3.5 ready.

Depends on what you're aiming for. Do you want a class that mimics an asian shaman, complete with martial arts and a role in a more formal religious order? Or one that mimics a more tribal shaman?

[Allanimal]

I want to retool the Spirit Shaman to be more like the OA in that its not fully focused on Ghosts.



To be fair, "spirits" are all Incorporeal Undead, as well as all Elementals & all Fey + a few things that don't come up often. Thats not an insignificant chunk o' monsters. And it is only a few of their abilities that are limited to that list. The druid spells work on anything they would if a druid cast it.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Yes I know what spirits are in the game.

I want the class to just have a bit more wiggle room.

I was thinking more tribal or ancient shaman.
But the martial arts idea is in the OA even with Unarmed progression thanks to the Eratta with 2d6 unarmed damage at high levels.

The Errata also gives spells but not many.
I am thinking of just retooling the OA with a few of the SS's features and uses the same spell casting system and maybe add more spells from the Druid and Cleric spell list but maybe have the Homebrew section give me advice on which ones.

[Fates]

Perhaps you could add only the spells the shaman spells that are added by OA to the spirit shaman's spell list? It wouldn't be a major power boost, but it would allow for slightly more flavorful spellcasting, with more spells to do with spirits and whatnot (IE Protection from spirits, commune with spirits, trance, create spring, etc). Granted, that does include the spirit ally line, but barring ghost abuse, etc that isn't too serious a power influx.

[Urpriest]

Perhaps you could add only the spells the shaman spells that are added by OA to the spirit shaman's spell list? It wouldn't be a major power boost, but it would allow for slightly more flavorful spellcasting, with more spells to do with spirits and whatnot (IE Protection from spirits, commune with spirits, trance, create spring, etc). Granted, that does include the spirit ally line, but barring ghost abuse, etc that isn't too serious a power influx.

I could see this working, if all that you're going for is a more flavorful spell list.

If you want replacements for the spirit-focused abilities, what about giving "paths", thematic sets of features for different styles of shamans? That way you can have a more spirit-focused shaman, a more heroism-focused one (perhaps with some bard-like buffing abilities), and whatever other archetypes you're looking for.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I suggested adding the shaman spells to the spirit shamans spell list and was told it was to much.

If I gave the OA the druid spell list and the Spirit Shaman's spell casting feature and maybe three or four features such as the spirit guide line and the last two or three on its list.

[Pluto!]

The OA Shaman spell list is really wonky. It has some absolute powerhouses tied with some painful omissions (no Magic Fang while Animal Companions, unarmed strikes and SNA spells kind of define its offense?)

Straight-up adding it to the Druid's spell list would be huge and would add a ton of abilities the Druid just doesn't have access to (an open-ended Planar Ally type effect, Polymorph, Giant Size, Miracle, illusions, teleports and so forth), and cut out the omissions that keep the Shaman's spell list from being notably broken.

I've complained about the Spirit Shaman's few spells retrieved in other threads, but it's still a very strong class, so I don't know that just adding those spells and class features is a great idea.

But if this were done through trade-offs - adding the spirit-specific abilities while taking away various animal and plant manipulation effects, not adding Gate without removing a comparably powerful option like Shapechange - I think you'd have a relatively well-balanced result.