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Järnblomma
2013-11-08, 06:33 PM
I want to make a nice villain. Like, one that at least seems to be genuinly kind and talkative. A fatherly figure, whom honestly just wants to replace the god of deceit and terror by engineering a war between to major powers, but really, that need not concern you, because you are smart - really, you are intelligent, I saw that from the start - and you understand that some things are necessary when you're chasing a dream. An affably evil villain, if you will. His name is Alarick Pontine, nicknamed "Papa" Pontine for his fatherly ways, and the First Among Equals of a small city. Lawful Evil, just not a **** about it.

But how do I make such a character *really* likeable without it seeming fake? How do I make the characters like him?

Help me, O roleplayers of the world!

Dienekes
2013-11-08, 06:55 PM
Have the guy be friendly, kind, charitable, and offer the heroes help from time to time. Have him listen to their stories, give good advice, and generally take a liking to them. When his evil plan comes into fruition have him try to get them out of the country (or at least outside the location where his plan is going down), as he legitimately doesn't want to hurt them. Or, have your villain give them magic items. They will love him if they get stuff.

ryu
2013-11-08, 06:55 PM
I want to make a nice villain. Like, one that at least seems to be genuinly kind and talkative. A fatherly figure, whom honestly just wants to replace the god of deceit and terror by engineering a war between to major powers, but really, that need not concern you, because you are smart - really, you are intelligent, I saw that from the start - and you understand that some things are necessary when you're chasing a dream. An affably evil villain, if you will. His name is Alarick Pontine, nicknamed "Papa" Pontine for his fatherly ways, and the First Among Equals of a small city. Lawful Evil, just not a **** about it.

But how do I make such a character *really* likeable without it seeming fake? How do I make the characters like him?

Help me, O roleplayers of the world!

Honorable on a deep and respectable level for starters. How does a villain win without trickery? Great power and strategic acumen combine to create something legitimately threatening. Make his dream something sympathetic. Why does he want to replace the god of deceit and terror? Does he intend to simply make the world a gentler place by lessening the influence of fear? Does he believe lying to be one of the major problems of the world that must be put to an end? Why is he evil for that matter? Does he take somewhat controversial methods on the way to his goal? Oh maybe someone on the deep good end of the scale got in the way of his goal?

If either the two previously mentioned goals are taken on what is the motive of the player characters? I recommend taking chaotic good PCs pointing out the fact that lies can be necessary to save lives, protect the innocent, or even simply resist a tyrannical regime in any kind of organized fashion without being dead within the week. On the other hand a group of PCs who understand the true value and necessity of fear as a human emotion. After all fear is a key component of the fight or flight response that allows people to protect their lives or those of the people important to them. Maybe lack of fear is seen as boring and even unnatural? All of this could work easily.

Järnblomma
2013-11-08, 07:22 PM
Thanks guys!


Have the guy be friendly, kind, charitable, and offer the heroes help from time to time. Have him listen to their stories, give good advice, and generally take a liking to them. When his evil plan comes into fruition have him try to get them out of the country (or at least outside the location where his plan is going down), as he legitimately doesn't want to hurt them. Or, have your villain give them magic items. They will love him if they get stuff.

He's the questgiver. And how do you show of being friendly, kind and charitable? Without seeming insincere?

Oh, he's an old adventurer, an illusionist, maybe he can give and old thing of his, like a sword that he used. His personal one!



Honorable on a deep and respectable level for starters. How does a villain win without trickery? Great power and strategic acumen combine to create something legitimately threatening. Make his dream something sympathetic. Why does he want to replace the god of deceit and terror? Does he intend to simply make the world a gentler place by lessening the influence of fear? Does he believe lying to be one of the major problems of the world that must be put to an end? Why is he evil for that matter? Does he take somewhat controversial methods on the way to his goal? Oh maybe someone on the deep good end of the scale got in the way of his goal?

If either the two previously mentioned goals are taken on what is the motive of the player characters? I recommend taking chaotic good PCs pointing out the fact that lies can be necessary to save lives, protect the innocent, or even simply resist a tyrannical regime in any kind of organized fashion without being dead within the week. On the other hand a group of PCs who understand the true value and necessity of fear as a human emotion. After all fear is a key component of the fight or flight response that allows people to protect their lives or those of the people important to them. Maybe lack of fear is seen as boring and even unnatural? All of this could work easily.

Note that he doesn't want to remove the god of Deceit, he wants to replace. That is, he wants to be god of deceit because he wants the power and thinks he would be a better one. His deal is, in actuallity, all about power. He is lawful evil - just not a **** about it. He is genuinely nice and he genuinely likes the main characters, but he is almost an avatar of lies and in the end, he genuinly doesn't know who he himself is.

His sad, freudian backstory is that he was an orphaned kid on the street, friendless and weak and dependant on the criminals and scum of the city to just have food. He learned that the best way to get what he wanted was to lie, to deceive, to pretend to be a whole other person. And he was good. Really good. So good he forgot his own personality - or maybe he never really had one.

He noticed this but lied to himself about it, pushed it to the back of his head. Soon he realized a quest for power gave him a goal - which is the semblence of a will, which is almost like a personality - and he became a politician, wiping out the old thieves guild - his "friends". Then he became Primus, the First Among Equals, but he realized it doesn't get much better.

Until, that is, he discovered the old spells, the ones made by elves thousands of years ago, among them the spell Ascendance. It takes 250 000 souls to activate it, but if you do, you become a god, possibly booting one to the ground as a mortal.

But enough backstory and excuse that wall of text. What I mean to say is this: he is nice, but he sure as hell ain't good. He is one of the really bad ones, the really, REALLY bad ones. But that doesn't mean he has to be bad. He respects foes, likes people, wants to help.

And be the Prince of Lies.

ryu
2013-11-08, 07:34 PM
Oh that's simple then. As an early quest giver make him regularly generous, useful, and surprisingly good natured outside the whole soul sacrifice thing. Have him offer direct aid on quests as necessary. Have him give legitimate speeches about helping the innocent and a soft spot about people who were also orphans. Make him target mainly evil people for his ritual, preferably as many as possible of the sort the party would actively try to kill anyway. Even when the final battle rolls around have him break character by being honest for once. He explains his motives, and backstory, and then promises that THIS final battle will be done without any tricks on his part as a final courtesy to people he actually liked. Have him be a truly good sport in losing without any curses, hero killing contingency plans, or even harsh words. After all he played the game and lost.

Done properly the party should think of him as an absolute bro before things start getting twisted. In the mean time give them plenty of smaller villains, and quests to bond with this guy.

Eurus
2013-11-08, 07:50 PM
In my experience, it's not really that hard to make an affable and even likeable bad guy -- just don't expect your players to hesitate when it's time to cut him in half. Like him or not, PCs can be impressively cold about that sort of thing. :smallamused:

Järnblomma
2013-11-08, 08:52 PM
Oh that's simple then. As an early quest giver make him regularly generous, useful, and surprisingly good natured outside the whole soul sacrifice thing. Have him offer direct aid on quests as necessary. Have him give legitimate speeches about helping the innocent and a soft spot about people who were also orphans. Make him target mainly evil people for his ritual, preferably as many as possible of the sort the party would actively try to kill anyway. Even when the final battle rolls around have him break character by being honest for once. He explains his motives, and backstory, and then promises that THIS final battle will be done without any tricks on his part as a final courtesy to people he actually liked. Have him be a truly good sport in losing without any curses, hero killing contingency plans, or even harsh words. After all he played the game and lost.

Done properly the party should think of him as an absolute bro before things start getting twisted. In the mean time give them plenty of smaller villains, and quests to bond with this guy.

Yeah! =D Oh that's good, that's really good! I was thinking of having him get them after other disciples of Cyric - whom usually are so into that lies and deceit thing that they backstab each other too frequently to be dangerous in the long run. Small bandit gangs or anarchist groups (of the SMASH EVERYTHING variety, rather than the SMASH THE STATE variety, although the state is certainly one part of it).

Ever so slightly he'll be giving them targets that are... not that bad guys. Sometimes lie a little, but not too much. Leaders of mercenary groups, corrupt (or perhaps not so corrupt) church officials, diplomats that may or may not be cyricists... After a while they either begin to suspect him and confront him or he after a while tries to recruit them. Or that's the plan. Maybe do the "send away" thing instead, and then they hear that the city has descended into chaos. What seems most fun.

Järnblomma
2013-11-08, 08:58 PM
In my experience, it's not really that hard to make an affable and even likeable bad guy -- just don't expect your players to hesitate when it's time to cut him in half. Like him or not, PCs can be impressively cold about that sort of thing. :smallamused:

Perhaps. What I want to achieve really is surprise. Surprise and hopefully some form of fear. This is a dangerous guy and he needs to go down.

mucat
2013-11-08, 09:17 PM
Perhaps. What I want to achieve really is surprise. Surprise and hopefully some form of fear.
"...and nice red uniforms -- oh, damn!"

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

But on-topic: to make the guy seem sincere in liking the players, just decide that he is sincere. You've made him an expert at adopting and shedding personalities as if they were suits of clothes...so he must have an extraordinary ability to compartmentalize. Yes, he sees most people as sadly expendable in his quest for godhood, but the PCs are among the few he likes and respects, and he really does want them to survive and succeed.

Imagine a guy whose day job is to destroy stray animals. Unfortunate, from his point of view, but it doesn't stop him from caring for his own pet dogs. And his own dogs aren't likely to guess any time soon what he does for a living. Whenever your villain is on stage, just remember that the PCs are his dogs! :smallwink:

JDMSJR
2013-11-09, 04:10 AM
I would recommend checking out some of the episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer that feature the Mayor. He is practically the poster child for Affably Evil. That could give you some ideas.

ingis
2013-11-09, 04:37 AM
you really must see the evil supervillian scorpio from the simpsons.:smallsmile:
here ust listen to his themesong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QEsjd1WZuY

Traab
2013-11-09, 09:00 AM
I would suggest watching the Mayor from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He comes off as all smiles and kindness and light. He even offers his vampire minions freshly baked cookies! He acts almost like a leave it to beaver dad. He disapproves of swearing in his presence, etc etc etc. He seems to really and truly care about his people and how they are doing. But then he will sacrifice a young child on an altar to summon up some demon mercenaries without blinking an eye or losing that friendly smile. Very disturbing.

Järnblomma
2013-11-09, 11:52 PM
"...and nice red uniforms -- oh, damn!"

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Don't explaun the joke, man! :smallwink:


But on-topic: to make the guy seem sincere in liking the players, just decide that he is sincere. You've made him an expert at adopting and shedding personalities as if they were suits of clothes...so he must have an extraordinary ability to compartmentalize. Yes, he sees most people as sadly expendable in his quest for godhood, but the PCs are among the few he likes and respects, and he really does want them to survive and succeed.

Imagine a guy whose day job is to destroy stray animals. Unfortunate, from his point of view, but it doesn't stop him from caring for his own pet dogs. And his own dogs aren't likely to guess any time soon what he does for a living. Whenever your villain is on stage, just remember that the PCs are his dogs! :smallwink:

Yes, I think he will genuinely like the PCs. He doesn't want to kill anyone it is just *necessary* and he doesn't really care about other lives. But how do you express that? Withpout it seeming forced or insincere?

And that is a great comparison. Yes, a bit like that.


I would recommend checking out some of the episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer that feature the Mayor. He is practically the poster child for Affably Evil. That could give you some ideas.


you really must see the evil supervillian scorpio from the simpsons.:smallsmile:
here ust listen to his themesong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QEsjd1WZuY


I would suggest watching the Mayor from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He comes off as all smiles and kindness and light. He even offers his vampire minions freshly baked cookies! He acts almost like a leave it to beaver dad. He disapproves of swearing in his presence, etc etc etc. He seems to really and truly care about his people and how they are doing. But then he will sacrifice a young child on an altar to summon up some demon mercenaries without blinking an eye or losing that friendly smile. Very disturbing.

But what is it with these characters that makes them so charismatic, do you think? I can check them up, but I think it's more valuable to me your opinions about exactly what makes them so nice, even though they are villains?

Yukitsu
2013-11-10, 12:36 AM
Apparently my rendition of Lucifer was affable enough that they decided to keep working for (her) after the big reveal pulled through. The biggest reason they followed Lucifer into hell and stayed there was because what I made sure was to make everything she did seem reasonable, point out that (an) alternative was often worse, and that the players always personally benefited. Lied by omission a ton, but they never seemed to catch on to that.

VariSami
2013-11-10, 03:58 AM
See this guy when he was still the "Dwarf in a Flask" (Part in the Story: Pre-Amestris). (http://fma.wikia.com/wiki/Father)

The above spoiler contains a link to the wiki page of "the Father" from Fullmetal Alchemist. While the character is less than affable in most of his appearances, his early form was extremely fragile and as such, dependent on outsiders to do his bidding. It seems like he even liked his closest minion/student quite a lot. But it was all in order to achieve something extremely similar to what "Papa" seems to strive for.

Jay R
2013-11-10, 09:05 AM
You have two tools to work with: his actions and his speech.

Since his actions will be evil, this is primarily an acting job. You will need to take on the affable, kind, talkative role yourself.

ingis
2013-11-11, 12:32 PM
wel if i have have to say what makes a likable person it would simply be that they are in many cases kind and caring persons. He is the good boss, he is the kind of guy that would give you one or more days of if something happens in your personel life witch you may need some time to procress. the only difference between him and santa is that he wants to conquer the world, please his dark god or whatever.

In the end he really is a nice guy he only has a evil goal and needs to be stopped.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-11-11, 01:39 PM
If the character is sincere, just play them like you'd play any sincerely nice character. The fact that they're a villain doesn't change this; you don't need to play them as duplicitous or lying. They just happen to think that such niceness is not incompatible with doing horrible things.

Alabenson
2013-11-11, 01:46 PM
Here's an idea:
Have the characters meet the villain before they know he's the villain, and have him be as friendly and likeable as possible. Perhaps even have them meet him a few times, to allow them to grow attached to this nice, friendly NPC. This should greatly increase the impact of the reveal that this character is the Big Bad, especially if he continues to act as friendly and jovial as always.

The Oni
2013-11-11, 02:42 PM
^ This. Make the sort of NPC the players want to bring along with them, and then subvert it by having him be the villain.

Segev
2013-11-11, 03:15 PM
The key thing is to make him have a touch of Knight Templar about him. Not cold and heartlessly, but determined in spite of hardship. He doesn't like suffering, but he's willing to inflict it if he must. He's very, very driven.

It may be worthwhile to have a Starscream amongst his ranks of followers, a genuine villainous scoundrel who fancies himself the Dragon (but probably isn't, really) and thinks the soft-hearted restraint your true villain shows is weakness. This character can be all the horrid, rotten cliches and attitudes you need to focus the players' hatred. Some of what he does, he does at the express order of the affable mastermind. Some, he does with the tacit permission of said mastermind, and some he does just because he can.

This character will make a good mid-endgame boss to have a satisfying victory for your players over definite evil. Possibly even helping the affable villain dispose of the Starscream after the Starscream decides that the "weakness" of the affable villain - evidenced, perhaps, by turning away from and leaving the tortured death of some innocent (though still ordering it done; his goal is not to be denied) - and feeling he could do it better.


The key is to make the affable villain not revel in it. Let him even get irate (but politely and with a sense of being let down rather than being actually dark-lord-furious) when his minions engage in needless violence. Let him offer genuine help to those who are of no consequence to his plans, where he can. Even let him continue to show kindness to those who verbally oppose his goals, so long as they don't materially get in the way. But, if pushed, he will crush anybody who gets in the way of those goals of his. As quickly and mercifully as he can afford to and still achieve his aims, of course.

Friv
2013-11-11, 03:33 PM
Have him send them on a mission to rescue some of his other agents, who have gotten in over their heads. Make it clear, more or less, that those agents succeeded in their mission, but were caught trying to escape, and he feels responsible so he wants the players to save them.

Have all of the above be true! This guy really does care about his underlings, and will spend resources to help them if doing so won't tank his goals.

This indicates to the players that, should they be in equivalent trouble, he'll do the same for them. Perhaps, at some point, they will be in equivalent trouble and he will do the same for them.

Isamu Dyson
2013-11-11, 03:39 PM
^ This. Make the sort of NPC the players want to bring along with them, and then subvert it by having him be the villain.

"Of COURSE I eat brains!"

Alabenson
2013-11-11, 04:07 PM
The problem with trying to make a villain seem affable by showing how he cares for other NPCs is that, as a general rule, PCs are a collection of the most paranoid, self-absorbed, violent sociopaths in existence. Once they attach the "villain" label to an NPC, that NPC stops being a person in their eyes and starts being a sack of XP festooned with loot.
This is why I recommended having the PCs encounter the villain before they know he's a villain; it allows them to develop a perception of the NPC as a character before they see him as a target.