Dissecting Tarquin

[Boring McReader]

Tarquin is easily one of the most interesting villains in OOTS, perhaps even in fiction in general. He's calm, smart, charismatic, practical, and prepared, yet his monstrous outlook is always visible beneath his appealing qualities.

I was disappointed by his sudden obsession with removing Elan's companions. It wasn't strongly foreshadowed, and it's an unusually narrow goal for such a careful planner to spend so many resources on. I was hoping Tarquin was playing one more long game below the surface, but every new panel makes that less likely. But OOTS character development rarely lets me down, so I've been trying to break down Tarquin's personality to understand why his latest actions make sense to him.

We know many things about Tarquin by now:

He knows he's one of the most intelligent characters in the story. He can trust his judgment most of the time. He knows most of his limits.

He thinks far ahead when planning, but many of his actions and decisions are arbitrary. When it doesn't interfere with his strategic goals, he enjoys living a life of excess and exploitation.

He believes strongly in law and order. He has positioned himself to be the one writing, interpreting, and abusing the law. He rules through strict enforcement. Other than living like a god, his stated goal is to bring Order to the world.

He is almost impossible to injure, thanks to meticulous preparation and character building.

He is highly loyal to his friends. He doesn't treat their relationship disposably. The only relationship he places higher is family.

His family is central to him. He cares deeply about raising his sons to shine as bright as himself. He enjoys spending time with his sons. He will bend as far as he can to protect and accommodate them.

He is ruthlessly pragmatic. The moment something becomes too big of a drain or threat, he discards all other considerations. You can imagine a teetering scale inside his head tipping too far toward the "liability" side. But he gives a great deal of weight to existing relationships and his own happiness. He wants to come out of bad situations with his relationships intact. He'll compromise when the price is not too steep.

Like his sons, he believes in dramatic narratives. What seemed like a character quirk turned out to be a guiding philosophy, or even his religion. He's rarely wrong when he's certain, and he's not wrong about the role of drama in his world. He's a dramatic actor in a dramatic story. His mistake is assuming the story can be controlled, that he can steer himself and his sons into the pivotal roles as long as he follows dramatic conventions.

He rarely shows emotions other than (evil) pleasure and temporary annoyance. He often seems oblivious to everyone else's emotions. Most of his interactions are calculated, not felt.

End of summary.

When we first met Tarquin, what stood out most was his control, his good humor, his quick understanding, his anticipation of events, and his capricious desires. He went on to show that he cared for both his sons, to the extent he's capable, but he also revealed how deeply, unredeemably evil he is, how willing he is to suppress a nation and destroy its people for casual entertainment.

His loyalty to his friends is unquestionable. He enjoys their company, he respects their abilities and ideas, he trusts them in battle, he's ready to kill to avenge them. But family comes first. We see him spend enormous resources to show Elan a good time. He laughs off Elan's attack, realizing a father-son duel is the perfect ending to his own story. He tells Elan, "I'll never be prouder of you than the day you defeat me." Even after Malack's murder, Tarquin is thinking ahead to how he'll keep Nale alive as part of his group. Tarquin is vain and power-hungry, but he's not particularly selfish in his personal relationships. He wants what he thinks is best for his family and friends, in that order.

What he is is controlling. He believes in a dramatic world where everything follows established rules, and he strives to keep every aspect of his empire under his own control. This extends to his friends and family. He trades favors and subtly manipulates to get what he can from his friends, his equals. He dominates Nale's entire life, thwarting every attack, steering Nale the directions he wants. Ultimately Tarquin usurps Nale's only ongoing accomplishment, the Linear Guild. What are Tarquin and Nale's final words?

T: I swear, Nale, I don't even know what you want from me anymore.
N: NOTHING! I want NOTHING from you! I am my own man, not some cog in your latest oh-so-clever scheme! I don't want your nepotism or your charity or your pity! I want NOTHING!

Nale falls with a look of surprise on his face. After so many years knowing his father was looking out for him, he wasn't prepared for a complete reversal instead of a clean break. Tarquin shows mild regret and stern anger, not rage. He doesn't hate Nale, he's not losing his head over Malack, he's treating Nale like an ordinary criminal in accordance with Nale's wishes. Tarquin loves his son enough to stop controlling him like a son, but once he does that he can no longer find a place for Nale in his nepotistic overlord worldview. To be the son of Tarquin is to be controlled by Tarquin. It's all he knows.

For most of Nale's life, he was Tarquin's only son, so he got all of Tarquin's unwelcome attention. Now Tarquin no longer has to worry about building Nale into someone he can be proud of, because he's already proud of Elan. He sees in Elan the heroic protagonist he could never mold Nale into. But with Nale gone, Tarquin realizes he's doubling down on Elan as his legacy. His plans for his continent and himself are less important to him than making sure he "fixes" everything Elan is doing wrong, just like he tried to do with Nale. Sure, Elan is doing well for himself, but he could be doing better. Why leave it up to chance when you can control the outcome? Tarquin doesn't merely want to steer Elan toward a better party or take advantage of his heroics. He wants to control Elan for the rest of his life. Tarquin wants to fit Elan into his own narrative and ensure everything goes the way Tarquin wants. He's not doing it to protect himself from Elan. He'll take every opportunity to do that, but it's not his motivation. He honestly thinks what he's doing will benefit them both. He sees in Elan the ending to his own story, but that's just a bonus. He wanted to see his son excel long before he got the idea that Elan would supplant him.

But what happens? His plan falls flat. The pushover characters turn out to be no pushovers. And every step of the way, Elan reaffirms he's letting others star in what should be his story. Now Tarquin gets angry. For the first time since he's appeared, bad things are happening completely out of his control. The chaos in the capital was expected; he's seen worse. Elan turning out to be his dramatic nemesis was a lucky break. The Gate exploding doesn't help Tarquin but it's not particularly bad for him. Malack dying? A setback, but he knew when he sent them off together that one might not come back. Elan as supporting character to a bunch of unknowns? That was unexpected, unplanned for, and runs against everything Tarquin believes about dramatically ordered reality. It's sacrilegious. Every round the Order survives is an attack on his core beliefs and another strike against his all-in bet that Elan will be his legacy.

So Tarquin starts to snap. He takes chances he doesn't have to. He places more weight on forcing a particular outcome than he should. He throws away resources and favors instead of pulling back to reconsider. But he isn't nearly as unsettled as he appears. He's made himself virtually immune to damage, a huge factor when weighing the risks of rushing into the unknown. His friends are with him, and together they are powerful enough to rule a continent. He's underestimating the Order's strength, but his underestimate is a factor in his decision making. As far as he knows, he's not risking everything to rush a solution that he might be better off postponing. He's taking 3 overpowering characters against a capable but manageable foe that a single one of them could risk facing alone. Whether he's right remains to be seen. An outside observer might say the narrative forces are shifting against him.

Tarquin, then, as monstrous as he is, isn't being careless or heartless in his latest power trip. He's acting for the good of his family, alongside his trusted friends, after a sad but necessary ending to his failed first attempt to be a father. He's fighting for his belief in the dramatic order of the universe, which he mistakenly sees unraveling before his eyes. He's taking measured risks against adventurers the likes of whom he's faced many times before. He's angry and making mistakes, but he's not betraying his own character and principles.

[Happy Gravity]

I'd prefer just putting him on the table and chopping him up.

[Mammal]

That's a solid analysis of his character. I don't think there's any doubt that he's acting rationally (at least in his mind), which is why he's an interesting villain for the Order. Seems to me that most of their villains operate on a more emotional level.

This is kind of unrelated, but there's something I was thinking about today: in #915, Tarquin mentions off-handedly that he believes himself to be better, in some way, than Ian Starshine. The comment reeks of either classism or some sort of superiority complex, and it got me thinking: is it possible that Tarquin has some sort of noble blood?

I think it would explain his god-complex and some of his entitlement/control issues. I doubt it'd come up in the comic, but I think Tarquin being the bastard son of some minor regent/deposed prince of a backwater nation would be an interesting tweest. And it would certainly be in character for him not to share this information with Elan, instead saving it for some later reveal, thus lending creedence to my crackpot theory!

[Boring McReader]

This is kind of unrelated, but there's something I was thinking about today: in #915, Tarquin mentions off-handedly that he believes himself to be better, in some way, than Ian Starshine. The comment reeks of either classism or some sort of superiority complex, and it got me thinking: is it possible that Tarquin has some sort of noble blood?

I think it would explain his god-complex and some of his entitlement/control issues. I doubt it'd come up in the comic, but I think Tarquin being the bastard son of some minor regent/deposed prince of a backwater nation would be an interesting tweest. And it would certainly be in character for him not to share this information with Elan, instead saving it for some later reveal, thus lending creedence to my crackpot theory!

No doubt he thinks he's above everyone around him. In his ideal world, he and a few other elites dictate everything to lesser people who do whatever they're told.

He's been through major setbacks and learned from them. He also expects great deeds from people who should excel. He respects and rewards competence. I guess the question is, does he believe anyone who works their way up to the top deserves it equally? Does he put down Haley's origins and the Order because they aren't rich and powerful now, or because they aren't from rich and powerful roots?

He probably doesn't think that deeply about it. He owns an empire, his friends own empires, and his children have the blood of a great leader. Compared to that, almost anyone would be lowly stock. If they were nobility reduced to selling shoes, would he respect them more than a peasant who worked his way up to lead an army? I doubt it. But there isn't enough evidence to say. Maybe Angry Tarquin will reveal more of his unspoken beliefs in the next few pages.

[factotum]

The comment reeks of either classism or some sort of superiority complex, and it got me thinking: is it possible that Tarquin has some sort of noble blood?

Why does he need noble blood to have a superiority complex? He's orchestrated a highly successful scam that involves half a continent kow-towing to his whims without even realising that's what they're doing, and he's been doing that for more than a decade--I'm sure it's not much of a stretch to consider that superior to getting locked up because the leader of the thieves' guild thinks you're a threat to his power!

[Mammal]

Why does he need noble blood to have a superiority complex? He's orchestrated a highly successful scam that involves half a continent kow-towing to his whims without even realising that's what they're doing, and he's been doing that for more than a decade--I'm sure it's not much of a stretch to consider that superior to getting locked up because the leader of the thieves' guild thinks you're a threat to his power!

Ha, I know. I outlined all my proof in that post, and it made slightly less than a full paragraph. I just think it would be a somewhat interesting backstory, that's all.

[JSSheridan]

The veil of uncertainty around Tarquin is a major source of his appeal.

iow, people like that he's mysterious.

Once that's stripped away, I think he'll be a pathetic fraud.

[Mammal]

I'm hoping it goes down Wizard of Oz style.

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MEGALOMANIACAL WARLORD BEHIND THE CURTAIN

[Lombard]

Just occurred to me... I don't recall any previous villains in books etc. that had such an overt awareness of their existence as part of a narrative. Then again I'm a busy guy and I miss a lot. Anyone else have a different perspective?

[JSSheridan]

Just occurred to me... I don't recall any previous villains in books etc. that had such an overt awareness of their existence as part of a narrative. Then again I'm a busy guy and I miss a lot. Anyone else have a different perspective?

:xykon: They could do a cutaway to us at any moment...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html

[Kingault]

"His family is central to him. He cares deeply about raising his sons to shine as bright as himself. He enjoys spending time with his sons. He will bend as far as he can to protect and accommodate them."

Until they decide that they no longer want to be one of his tools, one of the cogs in his grand plan. Then, he just disposes of them as they're of no further use to him.(Nale)
Sure, he's willing to do much to protect them, but I don't think that's because he genuinely cares much for them. He just wants them to follow his plans.(Elan coming back to fight Tarquin, etcetc)
Eh.

[Bulldog Psion]

I think the best tool for dissecting Tarquin would be a greataxe, though a greatsword has a lot to recommend it, too.

Whoops, that's not what you meant, is it? :smallwink:

[ThePhantasm]

Bulldog Psion has a sharp wit.

[Gift Jeraff]

Cut it out, guys. :smallsigh:

[Peelee]

I guess you sliced through to the heart of the matter.

[Boring McReader]

"His family is central to him. He cares deeply about raising his sons to shine as bright as himself. He enjoys spending time with his sons. He will bend as far as he can to protect and accommodate them."

Until they decide that they no longer want to be one of his tools, one of the cogs in his grand plan. Then, he just disposes of them as they're of no further use to him.(Nale)
Sure, he's willing to do much to protect them, but I don't think that's because he genuinely cares much for them. He just wants them to follow his plans.(Elan coming back to fight Tarquin, etcetc)
Eh.

In Nale and Tarquin's final scene together, he speaks more or less from the heart with several revealing lines.

"This was your chance to impress me." In the context of ending his feud with Malack and Tarquin's inner circle.

"Are you even listening to me? I'm saying that I came out into this miserable desert for you. To give my son a second chance."

He's shocked Elan didn't want Tarquin to protect him from Malack. Nale rejects his help, and everything else his father has ever done for him.

"Is that really how you feel?"

"As you wish, Son." His final words as a father. Then a cold, pragmatic sendoff line.

His first sentence after revealing himself to Elan: "Look at you! What are you, a protagonist? I'm so proud! Have you thwarted any villains yet?"

His private note to the bounty hunters reads, "No one extorts money from me in front of my son. I look forward to seeing you die in the arena."

In #750-751 Tarquin and Elan spend a day reenacting Elan's childhood. Tarquin: "I just wanted to take a moment to say how proud I am of you. I mean, how you grew up. ...Now that I've met you, and seen that you've grown up to be a hero, well...it makes me sad that I didn't get to be a part of your life."

After lighting up Elan's name, "I did that for you, Elan. The whole parade, everything I do now is for you. I love you, Son. I should never have left you behind. All I can do is try to make it up to you. ...I have such plans for us. ...Give your old man a hug."

After dueling Elan, "Elan, I have no interest in hurting you. ...Even if I were to place myself within your limited and unrealistic 'alignment system,' why would that be a reason to harm you? You are my sole remaining son! I do love you. And I would gain nothing by your demise."

Tarquin always has an eye on the long game. He evaluates every person for their potential value now and in the future. But that happens parallel to his emotional life. He enjoys his close personal relationships. He feels pride when his sons do well, he feels responsible when they don't, he goes out of his way to protect them, and he spends large amounts of time bonding with Elan, knowing full well that Elan is a potential heroic adversary rather than an evil ally. He sees his children as monuments to his own achievements, and he loves them for who they are. He just happens to be a cold-blooded control freak who believes a big part of being a responsible parent is managing his adult children's plans and deciding who they should associate with.

He loves his family as only Tarquin can, ruthlessly and orderly mixed with extreme narcissism. But he does love them. He saves Nale's life many times over, tries to manipulate him into a position to shine, and only kills Nale when Nale explicitly says he doesn't want Tarquin to do anything for him again. He kills Nale because once he is no longer acting as Nale's father, Nale is Malack's murderer and needs to be dealt with. His cold-blooded nature allows him to move on without grief, but you can see him accepting Nale's choice as a parent who realizes their child is never going to be the person they tried to raise. Treating Nale like just another criminal is the closest he can come to letting Nale have his own life back. It's a gift to his son, a sick, twisted gift that Nale never saw coming.

But that's why Tarquin's interesting. He has real emotions mixed with all his ruthlessness. When Nale tries to replace him, he is disappointed that his son couldn't plan his treachery better. When Elan vows to topple him, he feels proud that his son is such a noble hero. He shows real affection for both of them, in the context of what's going on at the time.

[Gift Jeraff]

Just occurred to me... I don't recall any previous villains in books etc. that had such an overt awareness of their existence as part of a narrative. Then again I'm a busy guy and I miss a lot. Anyone else have a different perspective?


:xykon: They could do a cutaway to us at any moment...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html

This made me realize something: has Tarquin ever shown "medium awareness"? Things like referencing cutaways, last panels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0283.html), speech balloons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), being in a comic strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0598.html), panel layout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html), pages being filled with speech balloons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html), and of course this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html).

The closest I can think of is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html), where he's alluding to the fact that the readers are in the dark about things the villains treat as common knowledge, but he erroneously says protagonists.

[skim172]

My view is that Tarquin killed Nale because Nale rejected him. It wasn't out of emotion for Malack or out of respect to law. Nale rejected Tarquin - but, ever-lawful, ever-calculating, Tarquin was quite willing to set that aside so long as Nale was useful and nominally fulfilled his position. Once Nale made clear that he wouldn't be doing that, Tarqun went with what came naturally - kill the one that defies you.

I don't think Tarquin is as complex as many people try to make out. What he is is intelligent, manipulative, and calculating, with strong powers of foresight. But emotionally, he's straightforward. He's an extreme narcissist - the world is a hierarchy in which everyone has a place, and Tarquin's place is at the center of it all. The world revolves around him - the narrative is about him. Elan represents the end of the plot arc, but the plot arc was always about Tarquin - either as the antihero benevolent dictator (as he sees it) or as the cool, devious archvillain.

Elan represent the ideal end to that narrative - because it will be his very son that swears vengeance and returns to kill him. He'll go out a legend - preserved forever at the centerpiece of the story.

It's not surprising that Tarquin is so keen on ending Roy's meddling - any more than it was that he imprisoned Enor and Gannji for embarrassing him with a can of soup. Or when he set a bounty on Ian Starshine for insulting him to his face. Or when he set fire to a mass of escaped slaves to set an example and also spell out a note for his son. Or the fact that he runs a slave-based empire at all. Or that he has no qualms about perpetuating instability and war on the continent just for the sake of his own comfort. They simply don't matter enough for him to be concerned.

You matter in relation to Tarquin and the narrative which he has set for himself. If you are close to him - like, if you're family, then you matter. If you're just some adventurers, a pair of bounty hunters, a slave, or a disowned son, then you don't matter so much. And you're upsetting the order of things as they should be if you do something to disrupt the narrative - if you take away the protagonist label from his son, if you extort money from him, if you insult him to his face, or if you reject him completely and that you want nothing from him and expect nothing in return.

Tarquin isn't so complex. He's fairly mysterious - that's his modus operandi and the root of his charm. He's James Bond - suave, sexy, and strange. So it's easy to think he's got something really deep going on emotionally.

But I really doubt it. Tarquin is, in the end, an extreme narcissist and a fan of social hierarchies with himself at the top. This is his world - we're all just living in it.

[Evandar]

This made me realize something: has Tarquin ever shown "medium awareness"? Things like referencing cutaways, last panels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0283.html), speech balloons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), being in a comic strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0598.html), panel layout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html), pages being filled with speech balloons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html), and of course this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html).

The closest I can think of is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html), where he's alluding to the fact that the readers are in the dark about things the villains treat as common knowledge, but he erroneously says protagonists.

I don't think that's an error. He's saying that the readers generally follow the protagonists, and many things that are meant to be a surprise for protagonists are also kept hidden from the readers to conserve drama. 'Since we aren't telling the readers, then the protagonists don't know either'.

But I'd like to think Tarquin has deeper motivations than what is being portrayed. The constant shattering of the fourth wall is funny, but it also irks me that it can be the primary motivation of a character. Not enough to ruin the current story arc for me, just enough to bug me. It's like Tarquin isn't even considering original plot twists that he hasn't orchestrated.

[mimhoff]

Tarquin's assessment of Nale was accurate--he was stupid to think he could get the Gate with no plan on what to do with it afterwards. I think Nale is right about Tarquin too. He's become too timid--he doesn't have the courage to go big and chase after the Macguffin like the rest of the main characters.

[Bulldog Psion]

Bulldog Psion has a sharp wit.

Yours seems well-honed also, no matter how you slice it.

[Mike Havran]

I think Tarquin knows he is in some kind of a heoric story, the problem is he considers the story being focused on him and his family, while it's actually focused on the Order. And the actual events were pretty much supporting his worldview until the last few strips.


This made me realize something: has Tarquin ever shown "medium awareness"? Things like referencing cutaways, last panels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0283.html), speech balloons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), being in a comic strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0598.html), panel layout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html), pages being filled with speech balloons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html), and of course this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html).

The closest I can think of is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html), where he's alluding to the fact that the readers are in the dark about things the villains treat as common knowledge, but he erroneously says protagonists.
Here, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html)Tarquin approves Elan's memory of flashback panels.

[Orm-Embar]

I think the best tool for dissecting Tarquin would be a greataxe, though a greatsword has a lot to recommend it, too.

Whoops, that's not what you meant, is it? :smallwink:

Good points.

[Boring McReader]

My view is that Tarquin killed Nale because Nale rejected him. It wasn't out of emotion for Malack or out of respect to law. Nale rejected Tarquin - but, ever-lawful, ever-calculating, Tarquin was quite willing to set that aside so long as Nale was useful and nominally fulfilled his position. Once Nale made clear that he wouldn't be doing that, Tarqun went with what came naturally - kill the one that defies you.

I don't think Tarquin is as complex as many people try to make out. What he is is intelligent, manipulative, and calculating, with strong powers of foresight. But emotionally, he's straightforward. He's an extreme narcissist - the world is a hierarchy in which everyone has a place, and Tarquin's place is at the center of it all. The world revolves around him - the narrative is about him. Elan represents the end of the plot arc, but the plot arc was always about Tarquin - either as the antihero benevolent dictator (as he sees it) or as the cool, devious archvillain.

You matter in relation to Tarquin and the narrative which he has set for himself. If you are close to him - like, if you're family, then you matter. If you're just some adventurers, a pair of bounty hunters, a slave, or a disowned son, then you don't matter so much. And you're upsetting the order of things as they should be if you do something to disrupt the narrative - if you take away the protagonist label from his son, if you extort money from him, if you insult him to his face, or if you reject him completely and that you want nothing from him and expect nothing in return.

Tarquin isn't so complex. He's fairly mysterious - that's his modus operandi and the root of his charm. He's James Bond - suave, sexy, and strange. So it's easy to think he's got something really deep going on emotionally.

But I really doubt it. Tarquin is, in the end, an extreme narcissist and a fan of social hierarchies with himself at the top. This is his world - we're all just living in it.

If Tarquin was going to kill Nale for rejecting him, it would have happened before Elan ever arrived. He had many chances to destroy his rogue son and instead tried to steer him back to his side. Nale was a disappointment who was more of a hindrance than an asset. Tarquin kept him around because he wasn't ready to give up on his son. His attempts to shepherd Nale were responsible for Nale's frustration and hatred, but that wasn't something Tarquin was capable of understanding. In his own mind, he was doing his best to be a good parent right up to the end.

He was also evaluating Nale as an asset every time he thought about Nale. He looks at everyone that way, even his closest companions. From the evidence in the comic, I think his brain works something like this:

Should I kill Nale or allow him to die? + or -
He's my son and I love him! -10
He's a potential asset but needs a lot of improvement -3
He killed Malack, best friend and best asset +7
He disrupts my team +4
He tries to defeat me +5
He's not a serious threat -4

Before Nale killed Malack, he was a nuisance to Tarquin, an underacheiving son who was easy to predict and control. He wasn't a valuable asset, although he was worth more than nothing. Yet for most of his life, he wasn't in serious danger from Tarquin. He had lots of bonus points as Tarquin's son protecting him from slipups that would have doomed most others.

Nale's expedition to the Gate was his chance to step up and gain some points in Tarquin's equation. Instead, he brought himself dangerously close to Tarquin's tipping point. But Tarquin wasn't ready to get rid of Nale after Malack was gone. He was already thinking ahead to how he could get Nale out of this latest hole. After all Nale's destructive acts, family still trumps everything for Tarquin. When Nale rejects his aid, Tarquin is confused. When Nale continues by saying he wants nothing from Tarquin, Tarquin pauses, gives Nale one more chance to confirm his wish, then erases the entry in his mental calculator giving Nale special consideration as his son. Immediately the numbers change from slightly in Nale's favor to solidly against, and Tarquin acts accordingly. Tarquin does kill Nale because Nale rejected him, but it's the result of Nale rejecting him, the logical first action when treating Nale like someone who isn't his son. It's not a response to rejection, a punishment, an "if you're not with me you're against me" moment.

Tarquin treats people almost like machines or pets. He values some of them emotionally, enough to override the most straightforward pragmatic actions. But as soon as something removes or exceeds the strength of his emotional ties, he can dispose of anyone with only mild regret.

I agree entirely with what you said about his narcissism. He sees everyone in terms of himself and his storyline. After his day out with Elan, he thanks Elan for acting like a child to give Tarquin a taste of the fatherhood he missed. Tarquin enjoyed the day as a father, he did whatever he thought would make Elan happy, but he always interprets events and emotions as they relate to himself. When someone sees things differently, Tarquin becomes confused and unable to predict their reactions.

If Tarquin was only looking at Nale as an asset, he wouldn't say things like "I don't even know what you want from me anymore." He wants to help Nale become a great man, even though his overbearing decisions keep Nale broken and miserable. He wants to understand Nale and be there for him, but because Tarquin filters everything through his narcissism and pragmatism, he always gets it wrong. Emotionally, he's simple: he loves his children and cherishes close friendships. He's almost as easygoing as Elan. The rest of his dictatorial personality twists his best sentiments into horrible actions.

[AstralFire]

This is a really good analysis of Tarquin, and why he is - by far - not just my favorite antagonist in the comic but one of my favorites in any media, ever.

[Clistenes]

There is a point that helps understand Tarquin's current behaviour (if you don't want to read the whole wall of text, just read the bolded part, that contains the essential ideas).

Tarquin cares about narrative. Cares about stories and drama. Cares about image and style. And most important of all, he explicitly cares about having a legacy.

And he's obviously a narcissist who believes himself the center of the Universe, and everybody else just supporting cast.

Why has he conciously chosen to be the villian of the story, then? Why not just become the hero and marry the princess, inherit the throne and live happily forever?

Even if he couldn't be a hero, why becoming the villain, if he knows that he will eventually be defeated? He likes riches and pleasure, but he's genre wise enough to figure that he could have that and avoid a final villainous defeat, he could just have molded himself into a not completely villainous character; his current scheme doesn't require him to support complete monsters as straw kings; the king Miron and Laurin were supporting (the guy with glasses) seemed basically decent.

I think Tarquin understood early that he wasn't made of heroic stuff. Maybe he recognized his evil urges within himself, maybe he believed that, if he learned and controlled the tropes and narrative rules, he could become a sucessful villain that would never be defeated, a sort of anti-hero protagonist. That's when he memorized the Overlord List, developed his style and created his current scheme.

But Tarquin grew to be wise enough as to recognize that he was complete monster and he couldn't be even an anti-hero. Fine. He would be a villain...the coolest, greatest, bestest villain ever. He would conquer the continent, create a tyranny like nobody had ever seen, enjoy all the pleasures of life, live like a god, waiting for the hero of the story...

...And when the hero of the story came to defeat her, he would drop the mask, openly becoming an Evil Emperor, and give him the best fight the gods had ever seen. He would come out of the shadows and in the spotlight, and become an immortal legend of horror.

I repeat, Tarquin understand that he can't be the hero, he's the villain, but if that's so, he at least will be the greatest villain ever.

Elan's arrival was a sign that he was right, that he was THE VILLAIN, and not a villain.

But now Elan insists that he isn't the protagonist, and doesn't even seem motivated to fight him...what the heck?

Tarquin believes in narrative casualty; he knows that, in the end of the day, there are only two characters that are central to an heroic tale: The hero and his nemesis...Tarquin has renounced being the hero, but he can't renounce being the nemesis, because that would push him to side quest, to secondary villain, to secondary character's background.

Tarquin NEEDS Elan to be the hero in order to be relevant. If Elan is the comic relief of the team, Tarquin isn't more important than Kubota or Bozzok or Tsukiko...and a narcissist like him can't live with that.

[Lombard]

^ Dang that's a nice post man :thog:

[gerryq]

Good post. Like you I wasn't at all keen on the seemingly sudden foregrounding of a slightly bizarre motivation. But that's how it goes, and Rich seems to be making it work.

[rs2excelsior]

This... This is, I believe, the best analysis of Tarquin's character I have seen. Several of his recent actions have confused me, but they seem to make sense in this light. Barring official contradiction by the Giant, either on the forum or in-comic, I think you nailed it. You are, sir or ma'am, far from a boring mcreader.

And Clistenes, you add several good points. Because Tarquin loses his place in the world, the only place left to him, if he is just a side quest, he will FORCE the plot back onto himself. Kudos to you as well.

It's this kind of thing that makes me like Tarquin as a villain. Deep down, he is a human being just trying to fit into the world. An evil human being trying to fit into a cruel, twisted place, yes, but still more understandable and in some ways relatable than with a villain in the style of, say, Xykon.

[hamishspence]

I am very impressed by this analysis.

[The Oni]

From the evidence in the comic, I think his brain works something like this:

Should I kill Nale or allow him to die? + or -
He's my son and I love him! -10
He's a potential asset but needs a lot of improvement -3
He killed Malack, best friend and best asset +7
He disrupts my team +4
He tries to defeat me +5
He's not a serious threat -4


This is a good analysis, but to be honest I think his derangement goes a bit beyond that. I'm not sure he doesn't make a distinction between "Malack, the friend" and "Malack, the asset." He's monstrously legalistic. Almost devilish.

It's concievable, and evidenced by the way CHA-based arcane casting works in the D&D universe, that he's actually got fiendish blood, specifically that of Devils. Either he or his first ex-wife *have* to have some kind of distant magical ancestry, because that's how Bards and Sorcerers get their powers. It may not be devils, of course, but it's unlikely to be dragons (because of the whole Draketooth shebang), and I would say there is a strong case for it in Tarquin.

The alternative is that it's Elan's mum, and she seems about as normal as anyone can get barring her overly complicated dinner arrangements.

(To be clear: I'm not saying it's pronounced enough that he's a Tiefling, just that somewhere down the line there was some "friendly contact with an Evil Outsider.")

[Kingault]

So... actually cares for his son, eh?
(929)

[Emanick]

So... actually cares for his son, eh?
(929)

The scary part about Tarquin is that even now, he probably thinks he's doing the best by his son that he can. "Greater good" and all that.

[The Oni]

Oh he does. But he doesn't care enough about him as a person to endanger him as an asset (by leaving Roy alive). Furthermore, his decision to stab directly *through* Elan knowing that his hit points were sufficient to survive it requires a disturbing level of cold mental calculus.

I dunno. Maybe a supernatural origin for Tarquin's evil would undercut The Giant's point about the possibility of evil being very human, but there's an increasingly strong case for it.

[Ramien]

In Empire of Blood, Tarquin dissects you!

I should apologize for that... Not gonna, though.

[Boring McReader]

The scary part about Tarquin is that even now, he probably thinks he's doing the best by his son that he can. "Greater good" and all that.

Stabbing his son in order to save him from himself. Sounds like Tarquin all right.


Oh he does. But he doesn't care enough about him as a person to endanger him as an asset (by leaving Roy alive). Furthermore, his decision to stab directly *through* Elan knowing that his hit points were sufficient to survive it requires a disturbing level of cold mental calculus.

Like many parents, he feels he knows what's best for his children, better than they know themselves. He takes it to a ludicrous extreme by virtue of being a evil psychopath with the weight of an empire behind him. "Cold mental calculus" is a perfect phrase for him. His family and emotional ties have high value in that calculus, but when something else manages to surpass them, he'll take heartless actions without missing a beat.

He's hard to pin down as an emotional character because there's so much crossover between his pragmatic side and his emotional side, even while he is breaking them all down into independent line items. His planning side gives his emotional goals the same cold, mechanical consideration as his political and strategic goals. He does things that don't make sense from a pragmatic, emotional, or narcissistic perspective, because he doesn't distinguish between the three when making decisions.

He'll measure his son's narrative development against his future as an asset and the lasting harm and betrayal of stabbing through him to hit someone else. And 10 minutes later, if he asks them to sit down and enjoy a sunset with him, he sees no contradiction. Whatever carries the most weight after all the math decides his next action as well as Tarquin's emotional response to it.

Bear in mind he's as angry as we've ever seen him. He's a calculating person, but push him far enough and he'll start letting anger influence his decisions. He's probably giving family happiness a lower score than usual while this battle plays out.

I have no idea what's going to happen next. Things aren't looking good for anyone, good or evil.

[HandofShadows]

I'd prefer just putting him on the table and chopping him up.

I totaly agree with this. :smallfurious:

[veti]

He'll measure his son's narrative development against his future as an asset and the lasting harm and betrayal of stabbing through him to hit someone else. And 10 minutes later, if he asks them to sit down and enjoy a sunset with him, he sees no contradiction. Whatever carries the most weight after all the math decides his next action as well as Tarquin's emotional response to it.

This whole idea that "Tarquin really cares about his family" is utterly unfounded and needs to die.

Family members are valuable assets: they have an irrational loyalty that can be leveraged to manipulate them in critical situations. (For instance, would Nale have readily gone aside for a tete-a-tete with anyone else, without at least downing a healing potion first?) And it's useful to put on a show of treating them "specially" to reinforce that loyalty. But when he becomes convinced that he can't manipulate them to do what he wants, he'll butcher them without a second thought.

So let's just drop the idea that Tarquin has anything approaching a single redeeming human quality. The man is more a monster than Xykon.

[Taelas]

This whole idea that "Tarquin really cares about his family" is utterly unfounded and needs to die.

Family members are valuable assets: they have an irrational loyalty that can be leveraged to manipulate them in critical situations. (For instance, would Nale have readily gone aside for a tete-a-tete with anyone else, without at least downing a healing potion first?) And it's useful to put on a show of treating them "specially" to reinforce that loyalty. But when he becomes convinced that he can't manipulate them to do what he wants, he'll butcher them without a second thought.

So let's just drop the idea that Tarquin has anything approaching a single redeeming human quality. The man is more a monster than Xykon.

Tarquin can love his family and still be a monster. The two terms are not mutually exclusive. Though I am curious; even if you were correct, how is he more of a monster than Xykon? Xykon killed his own family and turned at least some of them into zombies that he set on the rest.

[Domino Quartz]

The man is more a monster than Xykon.

I don't see how that's possible.

[Emanick]

This whole idea that "Tarquin really cares about his family" is utterly unfounded and needs to die.

Family members are valuable assets: they have an irrational loyalty that can be leveraged to manipulate them in critical situations. (For instance, would Nale have readily gone aside for a tete-a-tete with anyone else, without at least downing a healing potion first?) And it's useful to put on a show of treating them "specially" to reinforce that loyalty. But when he becomes convinced that he can't manipulate them to do what he wants, he'll butcher them without a second thought.

So let's just drop the idea that Tarquin has anything approaching a single redeeming human quality. The man is more a monster than Xykon.

Yeah?

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[mimhoff]

The scary part about Tarquin is that even now, he probably thinks he's doing the best by his son that he can. "Greater good" and all that.

Yup. Running Elan through with Roy's sword is just extra dramatic motivation for him, and a sign that he needs to grow up to be the big hero who takes out his evil father.

[The Pilgrim]

Still amazed that people still claim that Tarquin killed Nale to gran him his wish to be treated without patronizing.

The more we see about Tarquin, the more I think he killed Nale because:

1) Tarquin has two important rules:

Tarquin's Rule #1: There is only one proper way to do things: My Way.

Tarquin's Rule #2: "Playing Second Fiddle isn't in our family's blood".

2) Since Nale refused to "follow proper procedure" (thus violating Rule #1), he was doomed, in Tarquin's view, to be a secondary villiain forever. Which violates Rule #2.

3) As he has Elan now to build him a legacy, Tarquin no longer needs to keep trying with Nale. And killing the failure in the face of Elan serves the purpose to warn him about the consquences of violating Tarquin's Two Main Rules.

[AstralFire]

(For instance, would Nale have readily gone aside for a tete-a-tete with anyone else, without at least downing a healing potion first?)

Anyone who he thought didn't have the guts to make a move against him? Yes.

Nale's previously demonstrated that he thought his Father was a coward.

[Trillium]

I don't see how that's possible.

To paraphrase (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html), Xykon may be a cruel and vicious butcher, but at least he cops to it! He murders things, because he likes murdering things, not because he's building a "better law" (good being a wrong term here). He makes people suffer because making people suffer is cool, not because "it is mah legacy".

[Seto]

To paraphrase (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html), Xykon may be a cruel and vicious butcher, but at least he cops to it! He murders things, because he likes murdering things, not because he's building a "better law" (good being a wrong term here). He makes people suffer because making people suffer is cool, not because "it is mah legacy".

IMO that makes him more monstrous. He embraces the monstrousness, whereas Tarquin has - in his own mind - external reasons that justify his evil.

[Trillium]

IMO that makes him more monstrous. He embraces the monstrousness, whereas Tarquin has - in his own mind - external reasons that justify his evil.

Who cares what happens in their minds? It is only the outward actions that matter.
I consider a monstrosity, which everyone fears and is ready to fight more agreeable than a hypocrite which tries to appears nice and helpful and then decimates your city, with the same charming smile, and even takes special attention to murder your loved ones. And behaves as if he's right.

[AstralFire]

Tarquin is more terrifying and monstrous because he's a more plausible character, and because his internal drive is based on more than just "being a jerk." He's also marginally less evil because of it, though that's a difference of microdegrees.

Comparison: Once you get beyond a certain point, increasingly high voltage of electricity actually does less damage to a human than lower voltage (because the higher voltage burns out the barely-conductive-flesh before the electricity can get anywhere really dangerous.) Lower energy, more dangerous.

I view Xykon evil as the higher level voltage in this analogy, and Tarquin evil as the lower-but-still-very-lethal amount. Lower evil, more monstrous.

[Taelas]

Tarquin is not more monstrous than Xykon. The lich is the literal embodiment of a Complete Monster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster). Tarquin is a monster, don't get me wrong, but he does have redeeming qualities: namely, his feelings for his family and his friends.

Xykon does not care about anything, at all. He killed his own parents because they let in a stranger to talk to him. Killed them by siccing his zombiefied grandmother on them. Whom he probably killed too.

AstralFire, I'm not sure I follow your definition of monstrous. How does being less Evil make you more monstrous? :smallconfused:

I consider Tarquin more dangerous than Xykon, a more cunning villain, but more monstrous? No.

Tarquin is more dangerous because while I could conceivably convince Xykon to let me live if I were to entertain him (for exactly as long as I continue to do that), even if my continued existence could potentially threaten him, but I doubt Tarquin would. If I threatened him in any way, he'd make sure to finish me off.

[AstralFire]

Tarquin is not more monstrous than Xykon. The lich is the literal embodiment of a Complete Monster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster). Tarquin is a monster, don't get me wrong, but he does have redeeming qualities: namely, his feelings for his family and his friends.

Xykon does not care about anything, at all. He killed his own parents because they let in a stranger to talk to him. Killed them by siccing his zombiefied grandmother on them. Whom he probably killed too.

AstralFire, I'm not sure I follow your definition of monstrous. How does being less Evil make you more monstrous? :smallconfused:

I consider Tarquin more dangerous than Xykon, a more cunning villain, but more monstrous? No.

Tarquin is more dangerous because while I could conceivably convince Xykon to let me live if I were to entertain him (for exactly as long as I continue to do that), even if my continued existence could potentially threaten him, but I doubt Tarquin would. If I threatened him in any way, he'd make sure to finish me off.

I consider Tarquin more monstrous than Xykon because, simply put, I find someone who manages to twist even redeeming, human features into more elements of their evil to be more grotesque. Xykon is a caricature I could dismiss were I more powerful than he, whereas Tarquin is a bit more disturbing to watch. For me, anyway. When Xykon is at his most evil, there's almost always some humor to take in it because it's so absurd; Tarquin at his most evil is just icy.

It's really a subjective definition, of course.

[The Oni]

Right. Xykon is not a scary guy (to readers) because while he is vicious and horrible, he's a kind of vicious and horrible that's funny at the best of times, alien and card-carrying at the worst.

Tarquin is a vicious and horrible character that could actually exist outside of a comic book, and I think it's THAT reason, primarily, that elicits a "kill it with fire" reaction which Xykon generally lacks.

[Gift Jeraff]

Xykon's scarier because he's a spooky skeleton.

[Taelas]

I consider Tarquin more monstrous than Xykon because, simply put, I find someone who manages to twist even redeeming, human features into more elements of their evil to be more grotesque. Xykon is a caricature I could dismiss were I more powerful than he, whereas Tarquin is a bit more disturbing to watch. For me, anyway. When Xykon is at his most evil, there's almost always some humor to take in it because it's so absurd; Tarquin at his most evil is just icy.

It's really a subjective definition, of course.

While I fully agree with the latter half of your post, the thing about twisting "redeeming, human features into more elements of their evil" doesn't make any sense. If they are "elements of evil", then they are not redeeming features.

Tarquin is more frightening to behold than the lich because he, as mentioned above, is more "real" than Xykon, but Xykon is still the more evil and monstrous of the two.

While it is his care for his family and friends that make him more real, they are not elements that make him more evil. Just more frightening.

But this is becoming an argument of semantics, I think.

[veti]

While it is his care for his family and friends that make him more real, they are not elements that make him more evil. Just more frightening.

But my argument is that the "care for family and friends" aren't real. They're just part of how he manipulates people. (Look at how he's prepared to forget and forgive Malack's murder, if Nale will agree to take his place. But he shows not the slightest twinge of grief for either Malack or Nale.) And the fact that he does this - and does it knowingly - is what makes him more monstrous.

If Xykon wants you to do something, it's like "Hey, you! Do this, or lose lots of hit points and then I'll get your zombified corpse to do it anyway!" That's - big-time evil, but there's a level of basic honesty and integrity to it that's completely absent from Tarquin.

[Ghost Nappa]

I think the best tool for dissecting Tarquin would be a greataxe, though a greatsword has a lot to recommend it, too.

Whoops, that's not what you meant, is it? :smallwink:


Bulldog Psion has a sharp wit.


Cut it out, guys. :smallsigh:


I guess you sliced through to the heart of the matter.

You have injured my funny bone with your words but surely you have only grazed the surface of the matter.


I think you naled it.

Your poor-technique wounds me. I have healed your laceration upon the comedic life-style.

If Tarquin does much more to Elan, I could foresee Haley attempting to tear Tarquin limb for limb. She's already mad at him for trying to rip her dad out of her life again.

@OP: Awesome Analysis. 10/10

[Taelas]

But my argument is that the "care for family and friends" aren't real. They're just part of how he manipulates people. (Look at how he's prepared to forget and forgive Malack's murder, if Nale will agree to take his place. But he shows not the slightest twinge of grief for either Malack or Nale.) And the fact that he does this - and does it knowingly - is what makes him more monstrous.
There is no real evidence that favors this interpretation over the other.

It is a possible interpretation of the material, but I just don't think it's correct. My interpretation -- that he DOES care for his family and friends -- make him a far more interesting and real character, and it is consistent with how he has acted at every single step of the way. While it is possible that he simply manipulated people for his own benefit, it's not an interesting outcome to me.

Tarquin went out of his way to protect Nale, right up until the point where Nale threw his generosity back in his face. Only after confirming completely that Nale would never, ever accept Tarquin did he kill him, and it involved doing precisely what Nale wanted: treating him not as his son, but as his own man. Nale simply didn't realize that, if it weren't for the fact that he was Tarquin's son, he would have died a long time ago.

Tarquin is absolutely cold enough to discard his feelings for Nale as if they never existed. But doing that does not erase them fully. They still existed.

He does show grief for Malack: he shows it when he stabs his son through the heart. He was willing to let it rest, to protect Nale. But when Nale refused that protection, refused any offer of aid, he decided not to let it rest any longer.


If Xykon wants you to do something, it's like "Hey, you! Do this, or lose lots of hit points and then I'll get your zombified corpse to do it anyway!" That's - big-time evil, but there's a level of basic honesty and integrity to it that's completely absent from Tarquin.
Integrity? Xykon?

No. Just... no. Xykon will promise to your face to leave you alive, and the second you're not useful or amusing, he'll zap you for the Evulz. There is no integrity there.

Not saying Tarquin is better, mind you. But worse? No.

[konradknox]

1. Ha. Let's not position that because Xykon has a sense of humor, he is less evil. He treats life, death, values, morality - as a joke, sure. But that doesn't make him less awful. Tarquin has pretty much no sense of humor when it comes to business.

2. Let's not position that being less intelligent means being less evil. And let's especially not assume Xykon is less intelligent than Tarquin. Xykon has some flaws, like lack of attention to names, which may be a quirk or may be just his act of outright trolling. Remember, he is a master of reverse psychology. Because he seems to remember the important bits just fine.

3. Let's not position that genre-shrewdness equals less evil. Both Tarquin and Xykon are equally genre-savvy. They break the fourth wall and have a good understanding of the narrative world. I'm sure nobody here will question that for Tarquin, but people may question it for Xykon. To which, I'd like to remind everyone that Xykon spells out his genre-awareness quite as clearly as Tarquin, just for some reason it gets ignored, because Tarquin is the big new thing of the chapter.

examples:

-The whole reason Xykon is in this Gate plan is because "every big villain must have a secret evil scheme". How he met Redcloak. In fact, he actually was "shopping" for "great evil schemes" and picked the plan solely based on simplicity of the sidekick's name pronounciation.

-Xykon keeps MiTD in the dark, not allowing him to come out until a dramatically proper moment.

-Xykon almost lets Roy get off the dragon, so he can go adventure and level up a bit to provide a more fitting heroic battle.

-Power equals power speech and the entire Darth V scene. "I don't feel that righteous paladin vibe."

-From SoD, his speech to Redcloak, "How far will you go to debase yourself before you admit weakness." His self-awareness of "Evil" with the capital E.


The reason Xykon and Tarquin seem so different is because they have different dramatic visions of the Big Bad Villain. Tarquin goes for more of a Godfather type mob boss, politically connected, a leader of men. Xykon is more of a Sauron type, magically control and directly oversee the destruction and do as much damage as possible. Both favor efficiency, just with different styles.

4. Fundamental difference between the two which makes Xykon a more dangerous villain: Tarquin is willing to accept his death and thus worries about legacy. Xykon is not willing to accept his death, or mortality at all in fact. He has done everything he could to avoid dying. Also, he has no children, so he has thrown all chips into the evil pot. Where Tarquin might be bound by professional conduct and loyalty to his team or inner inhibitions to his own reputation, Xykon is not. Xykon readily admits that if winning means taking advice from lowly lackeys, he will do it in order to win.

5. Let's not be bent too much on Tarquin caring about his family. I'm sure if Elan disappoints him, he will off him too, no problem. Tarquin is still in prime, he can always make more children, and raise them how he wishes.

[The Oni]

I'm pretty sure Xykon is less intelligent than Tarquin - but he's smart enough to be dangerous but not enough to overthink things. It's more force of personality and intuition than genius that makes Xykon dangerous. If I were statting these guys, I'd say that they both have an insane Charisma, but Xykon has higher Wisdom than Int.

[Zerozzz0290]

I'm not even going to jump on the "XykonVs.Tarquin" Debate, they are two different types of evil: One is (forgive me for the Disney reference) Gaston (I'm human and at the same time a bastard) the other is Maleficent (Not human but still evil as hell itself).

Now about Tarquin, I think he does take family as something very important, he was willing to help Nale to go back to the T.team. Ultimately he may have killed him as a gift or as a punishment.

His problem as other have stated is that he is aware that he is a villain in an epic story, but he hasn't realized that by forcing the confrontation with the Order he risks getting himself defeated (if even by chance, he did stated that fights before the proper time tend to lead to unpredictable results, which is not in his style, he likes predictable, he is SMART) and by getting defeated he will become the sub-boss before the final confrontation. Right now he hasn't realized he is this book's "Final battle" and he is pushing his luck against the heroes because he doesn't realizes that the reason Elan is not the leader is because this is Roy's story (he is the main character, so much that we even followed his adventures while he was dead)

[Evandar]

Yeah?

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

You made me snort water everywhere, you fiend.

[Clistenes]

New teory: Tarquin tried to be the hero when he was young, but he was overshadowed by his teammate and leader Julio Scoundrel, and his envy drove him to become evil. He thought "if I can be the hero, I will be the coolest villain ever!".

He's so furious about Elan playing second fiddle to Roy because he sees himself in him. He's like those failed sport stars that want to be champions through their kids.

[Gitman00]

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

-C.S. Lewis

I think he may have met Tarquin.

[Yendor]

1) Tarquin has two important rules:

Tarquin's Rule #1: There is only one proper way to do things: My Way.

Tarquin's Rule #2: "Playing Second Fiddle isn't in our family's blood".

2) Since Nale refused to "follow proper procedure" (thus violating Rule #1), he was doomed, in Tarquin's view, to be a secondary villiain forever. Which violates Rule #2.

And the thing is, Nale died because he refused to play second fiddle to Tarquin. I would wonder what Tarquin would do in Nale's situation, but I doubt he's capable of conceiving such a thing.

[Porthos]

It's been observed more and more lately, but as I am doing a full re-read of 'Book 5', I got to the duel between Tarquin and Elan back at Bleedingham and I was struck by a couple of points:

A) Tarquin really is more like Nale than he claims.

I am going to quote something he has to say in Comic #760 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html):

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: Your brother was a disorginized buffoon who cared more for satisfying his own ego than any realistic plan for world dominiation. All he ever cared about was that everyone knew that HE was the victor even when the situation called for keeping a low profile.

Doesn't that sound ever so slightly like how he is acting right now? Swap out disorginized with melodramtic and swap out the idea of Nale's thirst for recognition with Tarquin's thirst for controlling people. His freakout, and really that's all it can be called, over people refusing to play their pre-determined (by him) role is very Nale like.

B) Pivoting off some discussions from the main discussion thread for Comic #930 about how Elan 'wins', I was also struck by the compare and contrast of that fight and the current one.

In the rooftop duel, Elan explicitly plays by Tarquin's Rules. He even says ahead of time:

:elan:: So... you didn't care that he wanted to take over, you just didn't like the way he wanted to take over??

and

:elan:: Does that mean you wouldn't have cared what he believed in, as long as he went about it the correc way?

Tarquin answers yes to both questions, which leads to the 'proper' duel...

.... Which Elan gets his ass kicked in.

Yet when Elan decides to play this game by HIS rules instead of Tarquin's, he seems to be (so far) doing much better. Oh, he hasn't won yet (and we don't even know what winning is), but unlike the duel back at Bleedingham, Tarquin is in real danger here. He's not in control of things and he doesn't have that calm, cool, everyone-is-dancing-to-my-tune facade that he normally has.

And that's why he's breaking down. And perhaps losing.

Just a little interesting compare and contrast that is, I think. If Elan plays by the rules Tarquin sets, Tarquin is happy and wins. If Elan doesn't play by those rules, Tarquin is far less happy and is having a lot more trouble.

I suspect this compare and contrast is intentional, given the comments from Rich in the discussion thread for Comic 930 and elsewhere.

[BlackDragonKing]

B) Pivoting off some discussions from the main discussion thread for Comic #930 about how Elan 'wins', I was also struck by the compare and contrast of that fight and the current one.

In the rooftop duel, Elan explicitly plays by Tarquin's Rules. He even says ahead of time:

:elan:: So... you didn't care that he wanted to take over, you just didn't like the way he wanted to take over??

and

:elan:: Does that mean you wouldn't have cared what he believed in, as long as he went about it the correc way?

Tarquin answers yes to both questions, which leads to the 'proper' duel...

.... Which Elan gets his ass kicked in.

Yet when Elan decides to play this game by HIS rules instead of Tarquin's, he seems to be (so far) doing much better. Oh, he hasn't won yet (and we don't even know what winning is), but unlike the duel back at Bleedingham, Tarquin is in real danger here. He's not in control of things and he doesn't have that calm, cool, everyone-is-dancing-to-my-tune facade that he normally has.

And that's why he's breaking down. And perhaps losing.

Just a little interesting compare and contrast that is, I think. If Elan plays by the rules Tarquin sets, Tarquin is happy and wins. If Elan doesn't play by those rules, Tarquin is far less happy and is having a lot more trouble.

I suspect this compare and contrast is intentional, given the comments from Rich in the discussion thread for Comic 930 and elsewhere.

This is part of where I personally think that Tarquin IS Lawful Evil and Nale THINKS he's Lawful Evil but is in fact Neutral Evil.

Tarquin thinks that structure and procedure is EVERYTHING, and his framework for the structure and procedure that ought to be followed is narrative. People have very specific roles that designate their importance, and live and die within those roles according to certain narrative developments appropriate to said role. If people want to live outside their role, tough. If people want to mess up the narrative, that's unacceptable to Tarquin. It's not Good that Tarquin hates; Tarquin sees Good and Evil as meaningless terms and their clash is nothing but a spirited debate. What Tarquin hates and fears is Chaos. He wants an orderly, predictable, well-organized universe. He doesn't care if he gets killed and his empire is destroyed down the line as long as it's done the right, orderly way. There have to be rules in Tarquin's universe, and he's outright said that a universe with no sense of order isn't worth saving. Tarquin is evil stemming from his extremely warped concepts of how Lawful ought to be implemented; when Elan is following his normal role as a morally outraged hero standing up for his beliefs, all is well in Tarquin's world because this is the orderly, appropriate way for things to proceed. When Malack, his #2, gets killed out of nowhere by the son he was trying to reconcile with, and then said son refuses to take his place at Tarquin's side in the tale, and Elan ducks out of his "responsibility" to be THE hero instead of A hero while Roy refuses to die like the extra mentor character he is, things are no longer proceeding in an orderly way. The universe is now chaotic and meaningless, untidy violence is stacking up as Tarquin attempts to "readjust" the situation, which is making him kind of crazy right now. In some ways, Tarquin doesn't care if the rules screw him over in the end, but it has to be THE RULES. The world becoming more chaotic for any reason, good, bad, or neutral, is a horrible thing to Tarquin and must be fought tooth and nail so that the world can still make sense tomorrow. This is why Tarquin thrives as an intelligent pragmatist in a lawful, "sensible" setting, but has been increasingly out of sorts dealing with Nale's chaotic behavior befouling the story and the Order struggling against any sort of constraints he tries to impose.

Nale's evil, on the other hand, derives from his focus on himself in all things. He likes the rules when the rules are all making him win, but he hates the rules when the rules stop him from doing what he wants. He likes chaos when it gets the drop on people he hates, but he hates it when bad things happen he doesn't expect. Whether or not the universe is orderly was never a big priority of Nale's compared to his pathological obsession with winning and being recognized as a winner. Even in his dream world, Nale's not imagining his enemies dead or anything like that; his euphoric vision of ultimate bliss is gloating as long as he likes while the Order's illusion was getting all the stuff they wanted to do done.

[Irenaeus]

I didn't think Tarquin was particularly interesting before he started to unravel, but now, he's a treat.

I'm in the camp that terms such as "love" doesn't apply to Tarquin at all. He might think that's what he feels, but his care for his family is just an extension of him caring about winning a narrative.

He's a megalomanic psychopath. He has won the villain game, and has set new goals to accomplish, and these are done by proxy. The first try with Nale was such a prolonged struggle, that he decided to abandon it relatively soon after he had a new option available.


Tarquin is more terrifying and monstrous because he's a more plausible character...
Apart from not being undead, I don't think he's more terrifying and monstrous than Xykon, nor more or less plausible. His obsession with narrative structure while at the same time being mostly rational is not much harder to swallow than Xykons dedication to unapologetic evil. It's not really a competition for me, though. No matter how you cut it (obligatory dissection pun), they are somewhat on the same level.

Also, after recent developments, I'm wondering if the best way to dissect Tarquin isn't with puns alone, but with a accompanying rapier as well.

Edit:

New teory: Tarquin tried to be the hero when he was young, but he was overshadowed by his teammate and leader Julio Scoundrel, and his envy drove him to become evil. He thought "if I can be the hero, I will be the coolest villain ever!".

He's so furious about Elan playing second fiddle to Roy because he sees himself in him. He's like those failed sport stars that want to be champions through their kids.
I'm not sure it's probable, but I like it none the less.

[BlackDragonKing]

New teory: Tarquin tried to be the hero when he was young, but he was overshadowed by his teammate and leader Julio Scoundrel, and his envy drove him to become evil. He thought "if I can be the hero, I will be the coolest villain ever!".

He's so furious about Elan playing second fiddle to Roy because he sees himself in him. He's like those failed sport stars that want to be champions through their kids.

I do think that men like Tarquin do not and cannot spring into being from nothing; this is one of the key differences I feel exists between him and Xykon, whose psychopathy is clearly not a product of his environment.

I just get this feeling from his vehement obsession with law, which leads into all the cruelty, all the lack of empathy, all the narrative focus altering how he views anyone as a "real" person, springs from something in his own past. There was a moment in Tarquin's life when he said No. This does not make sense. Everything he's done since then, in my mind, has to spring from such a moment, whether it was something that happened when he was very young, or if it was an event that occurred later in life. Maybe his upbringing was as messed-up as Nale's, or maybe his first marriage falling apart because he couldn't check his Evil tendencies when he tried to settle down like a normal person led him into dark places. We may never know, but I think Tarquin is like Nale and Redcloak in that his evil is seated in something long-past he can't let go of rather than Xykon who was always going to be Xykon.

[Mike Havran]

Tarquin thinks that structure and procedure is EVERYTHING, and his framework for the structure and procedure that ought to be followed is narrative. People have very specific roles that designate their importance, and live and die within those roles according to certain narrative developments appropriate to said role. I agree with this, but I don't think his view was a reaction to some shaking event in his youth. I see him as a clever but spoiled kid who read all the fairytales and started to speculate on how to optimize his benefits.

[HZ514]

You made me snort water everywhere, you fiend.

I thought Tarquin was the fiend :smalltongue: