triple 9s without Ur-Priest or Gestalt (3.5)

[ImperatorV]

Hello playgrounders, I have an optimization challenge for you all. Create a 20 level (3.5) build with triple 9s (9th level Arcane Spells, Divine Spells, Psionic Powers, Maneuvers, or Mysteries) without using evil means or Gestalt (or tristalt). I tried to come up with something myself, but my min-maxing was not up to the task. Is it possible?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Replace Ur-Priest with Divine Crusader in just about any triple 9s build that can meet the BAB prerequisite.

[Emperor Tippy]

Sure.

Illithid Savant to eat the casting from creatures that can cast 9th level spells.

Psion doing Fusion+Astral Seed to pick up the casting abilities.

Hatchling Phaerimm Cleric 3/ Psion 3/ Psychic Theurge 10/ Legacy Champion 5 using LA buyoff for the Phaerimm's +2 LA get's you triple 9's at ECL 20.

[Anthrowhale]

A Crusader 8/Apostle of Peace 2/RKV 10 with alternate source spell grants Divine 9, Arcane 9, and Maneuvers 9.

[Forrestfire]

Sylph (1 LA bought off to make ECL 7) with a Greater Bloodline can get some nice maneuvers and the casting.

Sylph HD 3/LA 4/Bloodline 3/Class A 2/Class B 2/Class C 2/Class D 2/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1

... gets you 20th level sorcerer casting and Crusader and Swordsage stuff at Initiator Levels 20 and 22, respectively.

Make one of the classes you dipped a divine caster and pick up Alternate Spell Source to make your Sorcerer casting count as Divine for the third 9?

[ShurikVch]

Sylph (1 LA bought off to make ECL 7) with a Greater Bloodline can get some nice maneuvers and the casting.

Sylph HD 3/LA 4/Bloodline 3/Class A 2/Class B 2/Class C 2/Class D 2/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1

... gets you 20th level sorcerer casting and Crusader and Swordsage stuff at Initiator Levels 20 and 22, respectively.

Make one of the classes you dipped a divine caster and pick up Alternate Spell Source to make your Sorcerer casting count as Divine for the third 9?
Sylph's LA is +5
If you used LA Buyoff, then why not a +3?

[jindra34]

Sylph's LA is +5
If you used LA Buyoff, then why not a +3?

Because then you would need to fit in 27 levels of STUFFS before level 20. Not counting the 3hd... As opposed to 15.

[ShurikVch]

Because then you would need to fit in 27 levels of STUFFS before level 20. Not counting the 3hd... As opposed to 15.
My bad.
Pointed LA +5, but calculated as to +4... :smallsigh:

[Jack_Simth]

Psion doing Fusion+Astral Seed to pick up the casting abilities.

Warning: Some DMs will have the 'remaining durations on active effects' be part of the abilities you had when manifesting Astral Seed - in which case, this doesn't work for long.


Hatchling Phaerimm Cleric 3/ Psion 3/ Psychic Theurge 10/ Legacy Champion 5 using LA buyoff for the Phaerimm's +2 LA get's you triple 9's at ECL 20.

Minor Nitpick: You likely mean Hatchling Phaerimm Cleric 3/ Psion 3/ Psychic Theurge 10/ Legacy Champion 4 using LA buyoff for the Phaerimm's +2 LA

If you use Legacy Champion 5 in that exact build, you're at ECL 21. Note that if buyoff is not an option, you can also: Hatchling Phaerimm Erudite-1/Cleric 3/ Psychic Theurge 10/ Legacy Champion 4. Take Practiced Manifester for Erudite, and you can learn 2nd level powers on schedule for entering Psychic Theurge.

[Radar]

Sylph (1 LA bought off to make ECL 7) with a Greater Bloodline can get some nice maneuvers and the casting.

Sylph HD 3/LA 4/Bloodline 3/Class A 2/Class B 2/Class C 2/Class D 2/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1

... gets you 20th level sorcerer casting and Crusader and Swordsage stuff at Initiator Levels 20 and 22, respectively.

Make one of the classes you dipped a divine caster and pick up Alternate Spell Source to make your Sorcerer casting count as Divine for the third 9?
That wouldn't give you as high initiator level, since non-initiator classes only give you half a level per level. I don't remember, how it works with racial HD, but it still wouldn't be enough.

The classic method of saving up on taken levels when it comes to psionic classes is Ardent. When you combine it with Phaerimm for free sorcerer casting and Divine Crusader for quick progression of divine spells and spice it up with bloodlines, you will get:

Hatchling Phaerimm (+2 LA, but bought off) Ardent 1/Crusader 1/Bloodline 3/Ardent 8/Divine Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9

If you take both Practiced Manifester and Overchannel, you can push your ML to 19, which is more then enough to manifest 9th level powers. You have initiator level of 17 and learn a new maneuver at the last level of the build, so it can be 9th level. Being a Phaerimm makes you cast as a 20th level sorcerer. Last but not least, Divine Crusader (progressed by Ruby Knight Vindicator) gives you 9th level divine spells. All in a ECL 20 package even if you need a bit more XP to get there (Bloodline and LA buyoff).

You can switch two Ardent levels and put there anything else, but I don't see a way to max out yet another form of casting. Version using the Ur-Priest would have even more room to spare, since the build could switch to double-progression classes much sooner.

Granted, it still uses a fast-progression casting class (other then Ur-Priest though), but I don't think there is another way to get four nines in 20 levels. If only there was a psionic/initiator PrC...

[Crake]

Hatchling Phaerimm Cleric 3/ Psion 3/ Psychic Theurge 10/ Legacy Champion 5 using LA buyoff for the Phaerimm's +2 LA get's you triple 9's at ECL 20.

Can someone point out to me how this gets level 9 arcane casting?


Being a Phaerimm makes you cast as a 20th level sorcerer.

As far as I can see in Lost Empires of Faerun, you don't gain sorcerer casting as your character level, merely your caster level is equal to your character level, so wouldn't that mean that you still cast spells as a 1st level sorcerer, but your caster level would be really high?

[ImaDeadMan]

As far as I can see in Lost Empires of Faerun, you don't gain sorcerer casting as your character level, merely your caster level is equal to your character level, so wouldn't that mean that you still cast spells as a 1st level sorcerer, but your caster level would be really high?

So I went and looked up the entry on phaerimms and on page 188 of Lost Empires of Faerun, and the exact quote is "A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (caster level equals phaerimm's character level). Phaerimms use their sorcerer spells as if they were spell-like abilities, so they require no verbal, somatic, or material components."

The way I see it is that a 20th level phaerimm anything is also a 20th level sorcerer so the build posted above would work.

[ShurikVch]

Bestiary of Krynn have Forestmaster template (LA +3, cast druid spells, CL=HD)
Old 3.0 template - Psionic Creature - technically still legal and LA +0

Symbiotic (LA +1) and Tauric (LA +3) templates are retain special attacks of their "components"

[TroubleBrewing]

Pretty sure you can use Nar Demonbinder for 9th level arcane stuff.

Admittedly, it's a limited list.

[Jeff the Green]

Pretty sure you can use Nar Demonbinder for 9th level arcane stuff.

Admittedly, it's a limited list.

It doesn't, however, get 9th-level spells.

Edit: There might be a way around that, though. Use Versatile Caster and some way to learn a 9th. Or a +1 metamagic, if that counts. I can't figure out a build, though.

[relytdan]

in theory this works-
Each flaw a player selects entitles his character to a bonus feat
Flaw X: = bonus feat at 1st level
Flaw Y: = versitile spell caster at 1st level
Each 1st-level character starts with a feat. = heighten spell
racial bonus feat = sanctum spell at 1st level

STP Erudite =replace the normal Erudite Bonus feat
Mantled Erudite =replace the X: Bonus feat

01 warmage
02-11 rainbow servent
12 StP-Mantle Erudite- magic mantle
13-15 warblade
16-20 legacy champion

in theory 9th level arcane, all divine -9th level, 9th level psionic, 15.5 Il = 15th–16th 8th level maneuvers

[ImperatorV]

in theory this works-
Each flaw a player selects entitles his character to a bonus feat
Flaw X: = bonus feat at 1st level
Flaw Y: = versitile spell caster at 1st level
Each 1st-level character starts with a feat. = heighten spell
racial bonus feat = sanctum spell at 1st level

STP Erudite =replace the normal Erudite Bonus feat
Mantled Erudite =replace the X: Bonus feat

01 warmage
02-11 rainbow servent
12 StP-Mantle Erudite- magic mantle
13-15 warblade
16-20 legacy champion

in theory 9th level arcane, all divine -9th level, 9th level psionic, 15.5 Il = 15th–16th 8th level maneuvers

I thought Legacy Champion only advanced one class? If I'm reading this right, you have to use it for rainbow servant, warblade, and Erudite, all at the same time.

[relytdan]

not quite ..
technically
versitile spell caster = two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.
heighten spell = cast a spell as if it were a higher-level spell than it actually is
sanctum spell = has an effective spell level one level higher than normal
warmage = automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list, and has 3 1st level spells on the spells per day- use 2 to heighten gain access to all 2nd level spells and the rest gets us eventually to all 9th level spells arcane

rainbow servant at 10th gains access to all divine spells and because the warmage knows all their spells it then knows all the 9th level divine
STP Mantled Erudite in theory will have psionics and magic count the same and access to all 9th level psionics through warmage..
which brings it to the maneuvers the legacy champion buffs the warblade levels and gets us not quite to 9th level maneuvers in 20 levels

aside from various other feats in theory this works

[Radar]

Not really, since being able to cast a second level spell through Versatile Spellcaster doesn't unlock your second level spellslots, which you would need to cast higher level spells. Combined with Heighten Spell and Sanctum Spell it allows you to qualify for various PrCs early, but that's it. You also can't use both StP and Mantled Erudite, since they replace the same class feature. I'm also not sure, how the Warmage would give you 9th level psionics.

If you would like to elaborate, it would be helpful.

[relytdan]

the way it reads

Mantled Erudite
You have learned to use a single psionic mantle.
Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat

Convert Spell to Power
Your training has included basic magical theory as well as the usual psionic training.
Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.

No where does it say in either Which Bonus level 1 feat it replaces just that You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.

as the build has 1 racial bonus feat, 3 level 1 bonus feats plus the class level 1 bonus feat ; the build has potential.

Each flaw a player selects entitles his character to a bonus feat
Flaw X: = bonus feat at 1st level
Flaw Y: = versitile spell caster at 1st level
Each 1st-level character starts with a feat. = heighten spell
racial bonus feat = sanctum spell at 1st level

STP Erudite =replace the normal Erudite Bonus feat
Mantled Erudite =replace the X: Bonus feat

next once the warmage has access to that next level higher spell it automaticly gains access to all of the spells of that level.

through the STP and magic mantle , psionics and magic count as the same and as such would have the entire psionics spells of level X , list available through the warmage ability to know all of its spells.

its a technicality based on RAW and how these are written ( poorly ) .

[Radar]

Alright, I'm not much of a rule's lawyer, but there are some details I think need clarifying:
1. Class features only ever replace class features, so the "You lose your 1st-level bonus feat" clause always refers to a bonus feat normaly gained at the first level of a given class. Plus, the same wording at the same place has to refere to the same thing.
1a. Your interpretation leeds to a wonky situation, where at level 12 you replace a feat you gained at level 1, which is far from being right.

2. Separate classes with separate casting progression do not interfere unless class features explicitly say so. StP Erudites ability to learn spells does not allow one to merge it with Warmage class - at most you could convert those spells to powers through StP Erudites class features, but the regular restrictions on spell or power level still apply, so you still need 17 levels of Erudite to learn 9th level powers. Magic Mantle doesn't change anyhing here - it only changes the way magic and psionics interact.
2a. More importantly Magic Mantle does not open all psionic powers as powers known through Warmage's ability to know all his spell, from his very specific spell list, which is only expanded by the specific wording of Rainbow Servant's class feature.

3. If it was only about knowing all spells and powers, then you simply go StP Erudite all the way even without multiclassing. You have the capacity to learn every spell ever and every psionic power ever. If you want a way to do it in practice, then the only power of concern is Psychic Chirurgery and you need an Ice Assassin of yourself (or some willing target of high enough level) to learn everything ever.

I think it all might stem from the fact, you interpret the rules in a way, in which things not explicitly forbidden are fully allowed, which is not really a solid way. Still, it should be looked over by someone more versed in D&D nuances.

edit: and you still don't have enough levels to cast 9th level spells through warmage. Versatile Spellcaster won't get you that far without Extra Slot feat juggle, since it doesn't give you a higher level spell slot in of itself.