how much would ninja be better if had sneak attack?

[CyberThread]

if ninja had true sneak attack, how much better would it be?

[Snowbluff]

Yes, but to a tiny degree.

Seriously, ninja is a classic "Asian versus of x class, except it sucks.":smalltongue:

[Keneth]

About this much (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja). Because PF ninja > 3.5 ninja. :smalltongue:

[ArcturusV]

... I'd go with Not Really.

The thing is, I don't value Sneak Attack that highly myself anyway over Sudden Strike. I know people complain about Sudden Strike, because it's barely harder to use than Sneak Attack. But... think about it.

If your enemies aren't rock stupid monsters with Int: -- (Which are typically immune to sneak attack anyway)... the only advantage Sneak Attack has over Sudden strike is flanking triggers. Meaning you're in melee... with leather armor at best and a fairly craptacular AC in the grand scheme of things.

... which is not where I like to be. Because if you are backstabbing for respectable damage, triggered off flankign with the Cleric/Fighter who is his metal encased bulwark who isn't doing as much damage as the two weapon rogue who looks like they take hits like a little girl...

... who are you gonna smack first? The guy sneak attacking you for 6d6, or the guy attacking you for 1d12 + 10? Especially when the 6d6 buzz saw is a LOT easier to hit.

So rogues tend to be short ranged shotgun snipers. Which means you're not getting flanking triggers. At which point you're dealing with the exact same triggers as Sudden Strike. It's not an advantage.

Least that's how it's gone around my tables. Rogues learn real fast NOT to get into melee for that Sneak Attack damage because they're going to get hammered, hard.

[Story]

It's actually worse because it means Ninja/Rogues can't double dip on Dragonfire Strike any more.

[Snowbluff]

About this much (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja). Because PF ninja > 3.5 ninja. :smalltongue:

Woah, those are a class? I thought the only classes in PF had spell slots! :smalltongue:

[CyberThread]

meh, pre errrata creacent moon ninja did it better

[Psyren]

About this much (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja). Because PF ninja > 3.5 ninja. :smalltongue:

This, by far. +20 to Acrobatics is pretty beastly.

[Just to Browse]

I'm AFB. Can someone tell me if Ghost Step lasts 1 round or till the end of your turn? I'm imagining using a defensive ghost step after a big SA routine, which sounds worthwhile.

[ArcturusV]

It lasts for 1 round, indeed. And it is good for getting your butt out of the fire.

[Just to Browse]

Well if you get SA you wouldn't be burning ghost step to proc SS, and a defensive reservoir like that sounds pretty good. Add smoke bombs to taste.

[ArcturusV]

Generally. But since ninjas are armorless I tend to use it defensively anyway even with Sudden Strike. Get daggers, hide, throw dagger at guy. Ghost Step, move, hide again. Next round dagger with Sudden strike again. Because I do not want to get into melee with 10 AC and 6 HP, no matter how good my "DPS" might end up being.

[Just to Browse]

Bah, filthy casual. Real rogues use melee. :smallamused:

[ArcturusV]

Heh. But good DMs will flatten the melee rogue. You get ONE shot, at best. Better hope you always roll well on those buckets of dice. :smallwink: Why wouldn't the enemy smash the guy who is really hurting it?

[Phelix-Mu]

I think the key is to only flank the enemies that can be killed quickly. For BBEGs and bruisers, stand back and plink away.

Granted, with limited feats, its difficult to do both ways decently, but I prefer a class feature that allows for the concept of two strategies, rather than forcing a ninja into one.

But, to the original point, SA isn't really a big boost over SS. Both are situational sources of damage that tend to depreciate quickly, and at worst are not even usable in a given encounter. Without UMD for random usefulness against undead and such, ninjas are often left plinking away without SS. I honestly can't believe they don't get UMD.... What about all those nifty ninja gadgets and stuff? Ah well.

[Psyren]

Heh. But good DMs will flatten the melee rogue. You get ONE shot, at best. Better hope you always roll well on those buckets of dice. :smallwink: Why wouldn't the enemy smash the guy who is really hurting it?

Eh, the PF Ninja is generally sporting 50-90% undispellable miss chance and so tends to have little problem with being in melee. Later they are just turning invisible and flurrying with shuriken for buckets of sneak attack from range. He can also attack once with SA, swift-action Acrobatic Master and disengage at full speed with a decent chance of not provoking.

[Spore]

This, by far. +20 to Acrobatics is pretty beastly.

Hey. This brings me to the single most silly idea for attacks. With a base of 20 Dex, 7 ranks and the Ninja trick, you'd have 35 to Acrobatics, enabling you to jump 9-14 feet high. If you flat-foot your opponent you should be able to "fall damage sneak attack" them.

[Ravens_cry]

Hey. This brings me to the single most silly idea for attacks. With a base of 20 Dex, 7 ranks and the Ninja trick, you'd have 35 to Acrobatics, enabling you to jump 9-14 feet high. If you flat-foot your opponent you should be able to "fall damage sneak attack" them.
This is basically what I did to the end boss in Shackled City, as a) he was immune to sneak attack, and b) I couldn't break his DR, even with double digit Dex and an Agile weapon. So, yes, I goomba stomped the end boss. . It gets better with other Ninja tricks, to the point I was jumping as high up as far as other people with the same bonuses (and no one gets acrobatics bonuses like a Ninja) could normally jump across.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Meaning you're in melee... with leather armor at best and a fairly craptacular AC in the grand scheme of things.
You're in melee... with a mithril chain shirt and a high dex score (for TWF)... you're probably harder to hit than the guy with platemail and the greatsword.

[Squirrel_Dude]

As someone who's played it with and without sneak attack, I can tell you that sneak attack is vastly more preferable. You're no longer forced to rely on invisibility/ki to get your extra damage in. That said, the class still has a myriad of problems. It's super MAD, has mediocre weapon proficiencies, is very fragile, and it's key trick wears out it's usefulness as soon as the DM has enemies that actually challenge you.

[shortround]

You're in melee... with a mithril chain shirt and a high dex score (for TWF)... you're probably harder to hit than the guy with platemail and the greatsword.

And he's talking about AC 10 HP 6, which implies a low enough ECL where SA damage is enough to drop most CR appropriate encounters in the same way Power Attack is enough to drop most CR appropriate encounters. Let's not even talk about this being at a point in the game where AC is still relevant.

[Grod_The_Giant]

And he's talking about AC 10 HP 6, which implies a low enough ECL where SA damage is enough to drop most CR appropriate encounters in the same way Power Attack is enough to drop most CR appropriate encounters. Let's not even talk about this being at a point in the game where AC is still relevant.
First post mentioned 6d6 sneak attack damage. And even at level 1, I don't know how you have a rogue with an AC of 10.

But anyway, yeah, sneak attack is strictly better than sudden strike, but the class in general is more MAD than the rogue, has fewer skill points, and can't use armor.

[Big Fau]

First post mentioned 6d6 sneak attack damage. And even at level 1, I don't know how you have a rogue with an AC of 10.

But anyway, yeah, sneak attack is strictly better than sudden strike, but the class in general is more MAD than the rogue, has fewer skill points, and can't use armor.

A 3.5 Ninja with bad Dex and no armor is the only way I can think of (Ghost Step+Wis to AC doesn't start until 2nd level IIRC).