The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

[ThePhantasm]

The Index of the Giant's Comments II
Version 2.2


with thanks to Xapi, B.Dandelion, Jasdoif, ChristianSt, & theangelJean
and to Jesse Baruffi and David Lawrence of Geekademia
and special thanks to Rich Burlew


How to Contribute: Suggest new quotes to be included! Read the guidelines first. Then, when suggesting a new quote, also mention the date of the quote if possible, as well as a brief summary of what it says. The more helpful information you give, the faster the index can be updated.

To find new comments from the Giant
| Search Here (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Also+holiday+ornament+and+t+shirts+fro m+CafePress%22+OR+%22The+drive+is+over+but+keep+up dated+on+the+when+the+rewards+are+coming%22+site:h ttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1/1/1900,sbd:1&source=lnt&sa=X&ei=rxWqUrv0F9HooASe6YHwCg&ved=0CCIQpwUoAQ&biw=1440&bih=814) |


... ThePhantasm maintains his incredibly useful Index of the Giant's Comments ...


These rules were decided by forum vote. They specify what sorts of comments are suitable for inclusion in the Index and what sorts are not. This thread is run by its caretaker in accordance with forumgoer consensus.

Rule A: The quote or comment must still be accessible online.

1) | This includes the use of The Internet Wayback Machine and other methods of accessing comments that may not still exist in the archive.

2) | This does not include second-hand sources, like "I remember Rich said this, but the thread does not exist anymore." Even if you are 100% certain Rich said that, if the quote is not demonstrable or provable it cannot be included.

3) | This does not include Rich's commentary in books or in any medium that cannot be legally accessed for free.

Rule B: The Index is for collecting only quotes that have to do with the Order of the Stick comic or other fiction works by Rich Burlew.

1) | This excludes non-comic-related opinions, statements, etc. from Rich. So if he says "I like Italian food" or something like that, it is not to be included.

2) | This may include information related to the comic, like Rich's views on Dungeons and Dragons, book publishing, art design, etc. . . so long as these quotes are still within the sphere of comic-related discussion. Uncertainty should be decided by thread poster consensus.

3) | This excludes GiTP forum rules, updates, or general information. That is for the admins and mods to publicize and spread word about, not this index.

Rule C: The index is a forum tool, meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion. Thus, while the index may be fun to read through on a whim, this is not its primary purpose or focus - it is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection. It is for discussions more than it is for leisurely reading.

Rule D: If two quotes seem to contradict each other, only the quote that illustrates Rich's most recent and current opinion or position will be included. This is because of rule c). The index is not meant to be a complete collection for leisurely reading. It is meant to be an accurate research aid for forum discussions.

Rule E: Quotes that contain redundant information need not be included. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment.

Rule F: The index-keeper (ThePhantasm) has the job of updating the index in keeping with thread-goer consensus.

1) | He may reorganize the index if deemed necessary, though all reorganizations can be reversed by majority vote.

2) | He may immediately add a comment to the index without any vote, discussion, or consensus required if the comment obviously is in accordance with these agreed rules.

3) | He may never fully "reject" a comment's inclusion, however, he may postpone its inclusion until further discussion (and, if the divide in opinion appears even, a vote) decides the matter.

4) | If a comment's inclusion is uncertain, a vote requires a clear majority. If there is a tie the comment will not be included. The majority must have at least 2 more votes than the minority. Remember, the purpose of the discussions and votes are to reach some measure of consensus, not division.


{table=head]{colsp=3}
General Information
Alignment and Authorial IntentWhat does Rich mean when he says X character is Y alignment?|#903|07/23/2013

Alignment and EnvironmentEnor and Gannji were not operating wholly outside the ethical framework of the Empire of Blood. This doesn't change the nature of their acts but does mean that the acts are not as indicative of their overall alignment as some might suppose.|#812|10/25/2011
Elan and Nale's ParentageHow did it affect their alignment? Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed. Elan spared Nale's life because of Elan's understanding of what it means to be good.|#815|11/18/2011[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
D&D and Alignment
D&D's Alignment SystemThoughts on how it could be improved.|#838|02/18/2012

Usefulness of the alignment system in D&D gamesA great aid for teaching new inexperienced players how to roleplay.|#921|09/29/2013

D&D, Alignment, and MoralityRich on the comic's criticism of the way D&D has been played for over three decades. "D&D cannot and should not begin and end at black-and-white, and indeed already doesn't, if everyone would just learn to look at things a little more complexly." See also here (D&D "racism" and alignment) and here (the real world applicability of Redcloak's story).|#835|02/14/2012
On Being Lawful GoodBeing Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS.|#281|02/15/2006
More on Being LawfulMore on being Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS.|#891|06/03/2013
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Specific Characters
{colsp=3}
Evil Characters
Belkar is Chaotic Evil____________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________|#251|12/01/2005

Redcloak is Evil|#830|01/23/2012

Nale, Sabine, and Thog are all Evil|#142|01/20/2005

Tarquin is Lawful Evil|#763|12/07/2010

Everyone on Tarquin's Team is Evil And Tarquin is kind of like the Elan of their team. See also: here.|#934|12/08/2013

{colsp=3}
Good Characters

Durkon is Lawful Good|#798|07/27/2011

Shojo's Chaotic GovernmentShojo's Chaotic government was still good, not evil.|#891|06/06/2013

{colsp=3}
Neutral Characters

Enor & Gannji are True Neutral|#812|10/24/2011

V is True Neutral|#801|08/17/2011

Who Else is Neutral A long list of Neutral characters in the comic. See also here.|#903|07/22/2013
[/table]


{table=head]{colsp=3}
General
How the Giant Writes and Draws the StripsAnd an answer to the question - why are certain strips several pages long?|#896|06/28/2013

Art Should Challenge Preconceptions|#891|06/07/2013

Light and ArtThe art style doesn't show lighting and shading, much like how it doesn't show noses.|#871|02/26/2013

Speech BubblesDon't overthink them... they are subservient to the story. Malack's bubbles are only black when he "vamps out."|#870|02/18/2013

On Changing Font StyleThe failure of the Giant's old computer means the style couldn't stay the same.|#936|01/04/2014

Examples of Rich's Non-Stick-Figure Art TalentRich's mad art skills on showcase. Also more here.|#848|04/11/2012

True Subjective View In 843V gets cornered.|#843|03/07/2012

Why the Strip Titles Aren't Above the StripThe titles are "bonus" jokes. Rich prefers not to put them above the strip itself.|#759|11/20/2010

Character Appearances & Forum SpeculationSometimes a cigar is just a cigar. For example, just because two persons have similar hairstyles doesn't mean they are related.|#683|10/06/2009[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Art & Magic
Meld Into StoneArt trumps rules accuracy here in order to show the warping of the spell effect.|#859|07/26/2012

CounterspellingThe Giant doesn't use different art to differentiate between counterspelling with Dispel Magic and counterspelling with the same spell.|#830|01/23/2012

Spell ColorsThe colors come from the spellcaster's choice or personality, and not their alignment or the types of magic.|#731|06/28/2010

InvisibilityWhy the art for invisible characters isn't consistent (utility trumps consistency).|#706|03/15/2010[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Art & Merchandise
Characters and MerchandiseThe presence, absence, position, or style of any character on any piece of merchandise has no bearing on any future (or past) plot points.|#816|11/22/2011

Black and White BooksThey are unlikely to ever be colorized, and were not originally in color. Rich drew them in black and white.|#781|03/16/2011

The Oracle's Location on the OOTS PosterDon't read too much into it.|#744|09/05/2010[/table]



{table=head]{colsp=3}
Accuracy
Rules Accuracy In The Comic"If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading."|#801|08/17/2011

Rules Accuracy In The Comic, IICase in point: Rich avoids the D&D term "calling" for the sake of non-D&D OOTS readers, who probably would not understand its meaning.|#826|01/10/2012

Game Balance Doesn't Matter in This Story"I was communicating the way I expected the audience would perceive it, then I began the process of abolishing that perception."|#806|09/20/2011

Armies and High level characters in D&D"The idea that you can walk into any tavern and 2-5 adventurers of high level will be there is literally a joke."|#919|09/18/2013[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Characters: Items and Stats
{colsp=3}
The Order of the Stick

Elan and Nale are TwinsSo Nale has the same Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution as Elan.|#65|05/03/2004

A Piece of StrawHaley used a piece of straw to get out of the jail cell. Info on Haley's Dexterity, Level, etc.|#262|01/03/2006

OOTS' StatsRich hasn't written them down, and everything is up in the air until they need a specific ability.|#714|04/10/2010

Elan's RapiersHe has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.|#723|05/13/2010

Haley's Boots of SpeedYes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.|#793|05/29/2011

Durkon's Mass Death WardRich did not even know Mass Death Ward existed when he wrote the strip. He pegged it at 7th level instead of 8th.|#806|09/19/2011

Durkon Throws Diamond DustDurkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.|#844|03/09/2012

Why V Doesn't Have a StaffThere is no narrative purpose for it, and it would just be one more item to keep track of in the art.|#878|03/03/2013

Vampire Durkon Can Cast SpellsA cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells.|#883|04/09/2013

{colsp=3}
Other Characters / Creatures

Acid-Born SharkRich created it, and made fun of himself in the comic.|#785|04/06/2011

Tsukiko Breaks The RulesTsukiko has too many schools. Rich doesn't make character decisions based on common player trends.|#800|08/14/2011

Malack's UndeadMalack reanimates the dead Draketooths into mummies.|#856|06/20/2012

Tarquin Doesn't Have Trap Sense"I don't usually bother making fun of mechanics anymore, but if I do, I'm not that subtle about it."|#858|07/23/2012

The Keoghtum's OintmentThe Keoghtum's Ointment removes deafness because it is extra strength.|#863|09/12/2012

Girard's Illusion RunesThey are a ninth-level spell, not an epic spell.|#893|06/11/2013

Malack's Grapple SkillsMalack's grapple skills were a hunting aid, not for optimization/combat. A character's skills have to be looked at in the context of their whole life, not "what I would do in a game."|#906|07/30/2013

Babies shouldn't be stattedThe inclusion of combat stats for newborns encourages combat with newborns, which shouldn't happen. See also Rich's proposed alternative "stats", here and here.|#922|10/04/2013
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Combat Scenes

Realistic Injuries?Unbelievable things will happen in a crazy fantasy story.|#930|11/13/2013

Miko's FightHow Miko defeated the OOTS off-panel and captured them.|#251|11/30/2005

Zz'Ditri's Break EnchantmentRich didn't read the casting time while making the strip.|#800|09/07/2011

Roy's Arena Fight With ThogRoy's strategy to taunt a dungeon-crashing Thog into breaking the pillars.|#808|10/06/2011

Battle Scenes and D&D Tactics"My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you."|#873|02/28/2013

Malack and Mass Death WardWhy did Malack bother checking if Durkon protected himself when he could simply dispel the spell and not care at all?|#876|03/02/2013

Disintegrate is useful|#918|09/12/2013
[/table]



Note: for character stats and items, see the D&D rules section.

{table=head]{colsp=3}
General Information

Not everything needs a backstoryNot everything needs a backstory, or even has an interesting one worth telling.|#737|06/23/2010

There will be seven books (from the main online comic)|#800|08/15/2013

More Prequels?The total number of planned prequel stories is "pretty much fixed."|#804|09/01/2011

Some Thoughts on Visuals and StoryPeople get invested in the story, not the art, of a comic.|#838|02/18/2012

Dragon ContinuityThe Dragon Magazine strips and Gygax magazine strips exist in a separate continuity from the OOTS strips.|#859|11/25/2012

[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Character Development and Backstory
{colsp=3}
The Order of the Stick

Why V Didn't Kill LaurinCharacter growth: V is learning not to kill "from a purely consequentialist viewpoint."|#935|12/20/2013

V's ChildrenThe Giant made them adopted to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian.|#882|04/09/2013

What Belkar SawWhat Belkar saw while affected by the dream runes.|#890|05/25/2013

V is a Vegetarian|#891|06/03/2013

The Dream RunesElan's victory as character development. Also, Nale was the only LG member affected by the runes.|#893|06/11/2013

{colsp=3}
Other Characters

Tarquin's Internal and External EvilAbout the message that the Giant developed Tarquin's character in part to convey.|#934|12/08/2013

Drama and Breaking a Character"Drama is all about taking characters and pushing them until they break, one way or the other. If a character can't be broken, then they have no place as a main character in a story." More here.|#934|12/08/2013

Scrying in the DesertIt was Zz'ditri who scryed on the Order after they found Girard's illusion.|#870|02/18/2013

Kubota and HinjoWhy Kubota still wanted to kill Hinjo after the other nobles had given up.|#891|06/09/2013

The Azurite Nobles and HinjoThe nobles thought they could save their own skins from Xykon with Hinjo out of the way.|#891|06/06/2013

Malack is not Paranoid|#906|07/30/2013
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
The Gates and their History

About Girard's Double BluffAbout Girard's double bluff to protect the Gate.|#890|06/21/2013

Soon's CastleSoon built the castle, but did not build Azure City.|#804|09/01/2011

Soon's Gem and GateDetails about Soon's rift and how it is protected. The gate/rift could not be moved. You can shift a gate to another plane, but not another place on this plane.|#801|08/21/2011
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Familicide

FamilicideHow Familicide works.|#843|03/07/2012

Familicide IIMore on how Familicide works.|#894|06/19/2013[/table]


{table=head]{colsp=3}
Calendars, Dates, Maps
Death of Old Age in OOTS"Eugene literally died of old age. When a person reaches a certain age, the gods roll dice to see what his or her maximum lifespan is going to be, and when the person hits 12:01 on that birthday, they keel over dead from no apparent cause."|#933|12/06/2013

OOTS Age RangeIntended to be early to mid 20s. Durkon is the "dwarf equivalent" of this age range, in his 50s.|#732|07/02/2010

Chronology & TimelineAnything that states a numbered, dated year references the Northern calendar. The Oracle uses the Southern calendar. Further details on timeframe of Belkar's death prophecy included. Some time references in the strip (like the deva's chart) should not be taken too literally.|#725|05/26/2010

Map of the Western ContinentIt is constantly changing.|#746|09/12/2010[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Culture and Religion
Class Systems and CareersAlso, FYI, Durkon isn't "white."|#882|04/08/2013
Elven Government and Political Relations with the Outside WorldWhy did the elves help Azure City yet not try to stop Tarquin's tyranny? More here|#915|08/29/2013
Nergal and UndeathNergal is not against undeath. Malack just doesn't like using the undead as canon fodder.|#870|02/21/2013
Religions and Deities in OOTS WorldBackground details on who worships whom, and on Thor, Hel, and the Twelve Gods.|#848|04/11/2012[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Reading Too Much Into It
Malack's Chamber PlansThis was intended to use the imagery of factory farming, not the Holocaust. Malack plans to create a vampire ruling class.|#875|03/01/2013
Is Thog Mentally Handicapped?No, he is not. See also here (on why a mentally handicapped character will not be portrayed)|#935|12/30/2013
Malack's Vampirism and LGBTMalack's condition is not an allegory for LGBT.|#875|03/01/2013

Orrin Draketooth's DaughterShe's not Haley.|#811|11/21/2011

Belkar's JokesBelkar making a joke about something does not make it so.|#786|04/11/2011

Current PoliticsThere are no references to current politics in the strip beyond those which readers invent themselves.|#732|07/02/2010

TV TropesRich is aware it exists. No, he doesn't use it for ideas or reference it in any way in the comic.|#705|03/04/2010

PratchettRich hasn't read Pratchett.|#687|10/26/2009

Martin Rich hasn't read George R. R. Martin. |#913|08/22/2009

Hidden MeaningsNot everything in the comic has one.|#667|06/02/2009[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Storytelling Mistakes?
On Character Importance and Leadership SkillsThe Giant doesn't feel a character suffers for not having "leadership skills," and won't force someone's development just to give them said skills.|#882|04/07/2013

On Plots and Boredom"If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles, and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing."|#876|03/02/2013

True ResurrectionTrue Resurrection as a narrative-wrecking device, and an answer to the age-old "why didn't x character do y?" question.|#862|09/07/2012

A Missed Opportunity in 602?Why Hilgya was not the Cleric of Loki working for the Thieves' Guild.|#860|08/18/2012

The Gods Created Creatures After The World Was CreatedIs this a contradiction? No. There is no Gaia hypothesis in OOTS world.|#845|03/20/2012
No Purpose?"As a general rule of thumb, no one should say the sentence, 'There's no (or no other) possible narrative purpose for Rich to have done X!' until the story is completed. Because there's always a narrative purpose, you just haven't thought of what it is."|#826|01/10/2012
Surprises Are Not Deus Ex Machinas|#806|09/19/2011
Surprises Are Not Deus Ex Machinas, II|#931|11/19/2013
Racism and Sex in OOTSRich answers two separate concerns: One, whether there is some correlation between skin color and promiscuity, and two, whether there is too much promiscuity among the women portrayed in the comic. The short answer to both is no.|#650|05/02/2009
On Distasteful Jokes in OOTS"I simply have no interest in doing so anymore because I have grown the **** up since then...."|#935|12/20/2013
Slut-shaming in OOTSRich apologizes for Haley's slut-shaming in the comic, and gives further thoughts.|#931|11/18/2013
Stereotypes and CharactersMore thoughts on stereotypes, including race, weight, and vocation.|#931|11/19/2013
Typo in 597?Nope. It is a joke.|#597|09/30/2008[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Plot Holes
Why Didn't Malack Prepare Word of Recall?Further explanation here and here (with a few remarks on plot holes in general).|#906|07/29/2013
Did Durkon Lie?No, the Giant forgot that Durkon said he didn't prepare "Detect Magic."|#894|06/19/2013
Why Didn't Girard Prepare a Better Trap Against Undead?"There is a big jump from knowing that illusions don't affect undead to being able to do anything about it--or expecting every defense to affect every possible creature type."|#893|06/11/2013
Why Destroy Tsukiko's Remains if Redcloak was just going to tell Xykon he killed her?One reason is so that Xykon would be unable to Speak With Dead on Tsukiko... or Raise Dead.|#866|01/26/2013
Giant's Response IIA character thinking one thing instead of another thing is not a mistake, it just is. The rift grew according to Redcloak's predictions, but he was measuring the actual hole, not the cracks.|#816|11/30/2011
Giant's Response IIncluding - why Haley was surprised that Miko was killed, info on Nale's self-delusion and ego, how the rift got so close to Xykon's Tower (it grew), and what is and isn't a plot hole.|#816|11/29/2011[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Writing Process and Story Development
Challenging Storytelling Conventions"[There are] people who need to have their strict views on storytelling challenged. Much like Tarquin does."|#930|11/13/2013
On the story taking a more moral stanceTwo reasons from the author.|#931|11/19/2013
Durkon Becomes a VampireOriginally, Durkon was going to become a vampire in the dungeon of Dorukan. This plot element has been developing for some time and even predates Xykon himself.|#906|07/28/2013
Characters as Plot DevicesBoth Redcloak and Malack had humble beginnings that developed into something more.|#906|07/28/2013
The Girard's Gate PlotlineTarquin and the LG are the main adversaries of this book; Team Evil was never going to battle the OOTS at Girard's Gate.|#906|07/28/2013
Nale's WandIts function in the story. Also, a brief side-note about why Xykon showed up at Girard's gate a few seconds too late.|#904|07/25/2013
On Writing Female CharactersThe difficulties and fan reactions.|#883|04/09/2013
LGBT CharactersWhy there aren't more in the comic. Also see this.|#882|04/08/2013
V's Gender HistoryWhy Rich made V's gender ambiguous and what discussions about it were like in the early days. Roy's 'V-man' comment is not necessarily indicative of V's true gender.|#793|05/29/2011
Dungeon of Dorukan HistoryOriginally, Dorukan was not even necessarily a person.|#196|06/20/2005
The Dwarven god Thor (http://web.archive.org/web/20070220022000/http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7283)OOTS Thor is not based off of D&D Thor. Until referenced in the comic, the Nordic legends/mythology does not exist in OOTSverse.|#86|07/12/2004[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Character Development/Backstory
Belkar and BloodfeastBelkar's concerns about 'Bloodfeast' were part of his character development, not an effort to make V look bad.|#932|11/20/2013
Haley's LeadershipA greedy self-centered rogue becomes leader. Belkar and Haley are the only one's who questioned her leadership skills during the Azure City Resistance.|#882|04/07/2013
Durkon and Malack's BreakupDurkon reacts not only to Malack's vampirism, but to his alliance with the Linear Guild. He knows that Malack does not know Belkar isn't innocent.|#872|02/26/2013
Miko's PopularityMiko's story was not "cut short" because of fan opinions - it was precisely the length intended. Rich does not make storytelling decisions based on finances.|#863|12/18/2012
Parental ProblemsBackground info on the parents of various characters like Elan and Haley, including character/plot development history.|#815|11/18/2011
Miko and ShojoShojo was the "tape" that held Miko's character together for so long. He was responsible for much in Miko that was good/positive.|#815|11/18/2011
V's SplicesThere won't be a prequel book about them, and Rich hasn't developed a backstory for them. Just 3 evil souls.|#801|08/21/2011
Worldbuilding vs. Foreshadowing"Say hello to your boss for me."|#801|08/18/2011[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Character Names
Azurite NamesWhy O-Chul isn't Oh Chul.|#879|03/10/2013
Tarquin's NameNamed after a Roman King, not the Grand Moff.|#749|10/11/2010
Malack's NameNot based off of Darth Malak. Originally was going to be named Malachi.|#749|10/10/2010[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
The Story as a D&D Spoof
D&D Spoof Part IIMore on the comic's shift in focus from D&D gag-a-day jokes to a story that might appeal to a broader fanbase.|#831|01/29/2012
D&D SpoofThe Giant on the comic's shift in focus from D&D gag-a-day jokes to a story that might appeal to a broader fanbase.|#829|01/22/2012[/table]



{table=head]{colsp=3}
Supporting the Strip

How to financially support the GiantRich does not accept direct donations. Buying merchandise is preferred.|#918|09/14/2013

For Those Who Missed Out on Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive/posts/180096)The swag, sans patches, will be very likely available again at some point.|#870|02/24/2012

An OOTS "Munchkin" Board Game?No current plans for one.|#897|07/06/2013

An OOTS Computer Game?No current plans for one. See here for more.|#892|06/10/2013

eBooksYes, Rich has considered it. Digital PDF's are not in the works. Rich prefers to sell physical copy books.|#786|04/11/2011

Top WebcomicsDo not vote for OOTS on Top Webcomics.|#724|05/19/2010[/table]




{table=head]{colsp=3}
Prequels
The Rise of the Dark OneThe other gods lost their one shot to gang up on him and kill him. The Dark One has since been building his power.|#864|01/04/2013

How Xykon Broke OutHow Xykon broke out (with some insight into The Giant's writing process). On Xykon and Redcloak's escape from Lirian, see also this post.|#862|09/07/2012

Redcloak's Little SisterShe was not irredeemably evil, and certainly did not deserve execution.|#835|02/14/2012

The Crimson MantleGenerally it is not known by non-goblins that the mantle is the source of power.|#826|01/12/2012

SoD Paladins & Miko's FallOnly the crayon pages are narrative by Redcloak. Not every event is necessarily "seen." Certain scenes are largely shown from Redcloak's perspective. Details of why the paladins who killed Redcloak's people may or may not have fallen, why it doesn't matter, and how showing it would have cheapened the effect of Miko's fall later.|#706|03/15/2010

Right-Eye's FamilyThey weren't raised because Redcloak doesn't control Team Evil's finances to pay for resurrection, Xykon does. Evil characters are not discouraged / prohibited from raising the dead in OOTSverse.|#566|06/15/2008[/table]


{table=head]{colsp=3}
Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails
Dragon Magazine Alternate PanelWhat didn't show up in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails.|#799|08/03/2011
Virginia was one of Tarquin's Brides-to-beAlso, Julio rescued potential brides from Tarquin before their weddings, not after.|#932|11/21/2013
[/table]



{table=head]{colsp=3}
Kickstarter Bonus PDFs
Cornered For Donations"Nervous" and "Afraid" look pretty much the same, which helped with the misdirection at the start of Belkar's story.|#871|02/25/2013
Fire ThreatBelkar did not actually burn the town down on his first adventure.|#870|02/23/2012[/table]

[ThePhantasm]

Part 1: Kickstarter and the Fans
- 1A: Introduction
- 1B: OOTS Kickstarter Project
- 1C: OOTS Fandom & GiTP Forums
- 1D: OOTS Soundtrack Thread & OOTS Animated
- 1E: OOTS & Social Networking

Part 2: The Comic and Role-Playing Games
- 2A: On Whether Rich Has Time For Role-Playing
- 2B: Will There Ever Be an OOTS World Created for a Gaming System?

Part 3: The Comic's Storyline, Part I
- 3A: The "Darkness" of the Storyline
- 3B: On Behind-The-Scenes Story Commentary In Interviews and Books
- 3C: What Is The Comic About?
- 3D: On The Comic & D&D Rules
- 3E: Creating the Character Wall Poster
- 3F: On Fanart & Whether Roy Wears Pants
- 3G: Putting an End to the Crack Pairings Thread

Part 4: Modern Fantasy and D&D
- 4A: On Keeping Fantasy New & Interesting
- 4B: TVTropes & Lazy Criticism
- 4C: Public Perception of D&D
- 4D: Jack Chick & Tom Hanks

Part 5:The Comic's Storyline, Part II
- 5A: Rich's Favorite Characters to Write Jokes For
- 5B: Rich's Favorite Characters to Write Drama / Character Struggles For
- 5C: Vaarsuvius' Moral Conflict
- 5D: The Storyline & the D&D Alignment System
- 5E: On Keeping Plot Twists Secret
- 5F: The Desert Plot Arc & Law vs. Chaos
- 5G: The Possibility of an Order of the Scribble Prequel Book
- 5H: The Kickstarter Donor's Choice Stories
- 5I: The Conclusion of the Storyline
- 5J: How Much Story Is Left To Tell

Part 6: Outro and Ending

Special Thanks to Xapi and B.Dandelion for transcribing the interview. Reformatted for the index by ThePhantasm. Original interview by Jesse Baruffi and David Lawrence of Geekademia.

[ThePhantasm]

Geekademia Interview

1A: Introduction

Jesse - Hello, this is Geekademia on the Non-Productive Network, my name is Jesse Baruffi...

David - I'm David Lawrence.

Jesse - ...and we're here with another special guest, Rich Burlew, the author and artist of the Order of the Stick! Hello Rich!

Rich - Hey, how's it going?

1B: OOTS Kickstarter Project

Jesse - Pretty good. So, the reason... I think the reason we were able to get you on today is the fact that you're going through a very large donation drive at the moment on the website Kickstarter.

Rich - Yes. Yes, I am.

Jesse - So, to anyone who might not know about this, why don't you tell us a little bit about it?

Rich - Alright, well. For a while I've published my own books, of the Order of the Stick, and because I'm a small one person company, I ran out, essentially, of all the existing books, which isn't just a problem for selling those books, but also for selling any future books, because people like to have things in whole sets, so I was worried about what would happen when I put out my next book if my entire back catalog was unavailable.

So I had heard about Kickstarter, I had followed some projects and I thought "Well, I'll put up a little Kickstarter and we'll try to get..." I get people bugging me all the time to... not bugging, you know... asking all the time when the next reprint would be of one of my books in particular, War and XPs, which is the biggest, fattest, most expensive book to print so far. So I was like... and I absolutely did not have the money for it.

And so I thought "Well, I'll put up a Kickstarter for it, and if it goes well, I get to reprint the book, and if it doesn't go well, I'll have something to say next time somebody asks me [why] isn't War and XPs in print". And I thought that was worth it right there. So I set up this Kickstarter project drive and it's... pretty good so far. We got it funded enough to reprint that book in about... 36 hours I'd say, and it's gone on from there to funding the reprinting of every single book that I have - six - the ones that are regularly in print, and it's been pretty amazing. I had no idea that I'd get this sort of response from my readers. Yeah, it's been a ride, to say the least.

1C: OOTS Fandom & the GiTP Forums

Jesse - As someone who goes on the forums on your website from time to time, it seems you've got some extremely devoted fans.

Rich - Yes, that would be an extremely charitable description. No, it's wonderful, I love my fans, I do have fans that are very dedicated, often more dedicated than I am. You know, they're dedicated to some of the minutiae about the comic that has never crossed my mind, and... but that's great, I mean, I'm happy that they can get that enjoyment from it, even though I don't want to even worry about it. . . [crosstalk] . . .like the number of character appearances or who has the most number of kills in the comic, you know. Good for them. . . [unintelligible]

Jesse - Yeah, you've got bigger things to worry about, like what happens in the story. . .

Rich - Story, yeah.

1D: The OOTS Soundtrack Thread & OOTS Animated

Jesse - One thing I noticed recently on the forum that I thought was kinda interesting is the fact that people have started to. . . sort of making a soundtrack to the series. . .

Rich - I saw the thread title, but I haven't been. . . I haven't been on the forums as much as I should since this started, been having to put up an update almost every single day for the past two weeks, so I haven't actually caught exactly what's going on there, but it's an interesting idea, I mean, I know that Homestuck does similar sorts of things with the fans creating soundtracks and he actually uses them in his animation, which I don't think is gonna happen for the Stick, but it's still a great idea to be able to have something to listen to... I don't know, it's an interesting idea.

1E: OOTS & Social Networking

Jesse - One thing that I really wanted to ask you about, 'cause I think this is kinda fascinating... I've noticed most people in the webcomics... I guess, field? . . . are. . . basically kinda throw themselves on every social networking site there is, whether it's like Facebook or Twitter or Tumbler or any of that stuff.

Rich - And you're saying I'm a backwards Luddite hermit.

Jesse - Well, yes, but I mean it as a compliment.

Rich - I had to download Skype in order to have this conversation.

Jesse - I certainly don't mean that as an insult. It seems to me that it's something we here at Geekademia don't even use a lot of that stuff. I had to be dragged kicking and screaming to have a Facebook page for the podcast. But I was just wondering if that was a conscious decision on your part or is that something you're just too busy for.

Rich - Yeah, it's pretty much a conscious decision, I mean, I am a technologically backwards Luddite, that makes it easy . . . but second, I think, if I want people to see my content, I want them to sort of come to my website, instead of maintaining different websites at 15 different social networks. I don't want to have to worry about whether my Facebook page is updated in addition to my website. And some of these I'm just a late arrival to, in the sense that there is an Order of the Stick website that somebody created, a fan created, and it's been out there and everybody's linked to it, and everyone liked it in their profiles or whatever and I don't have control of that, so rather than there being two competing Facebook pages I just sort of let that live it's own life as a fan created thing and I'll concentrate on my own website.

I will probably get dragged into Twitter very soon [N.B. As of 3/15/2012 Rich has a Twitter account for OOTS. -ThePhantasm] but, ah, not yet, haven't crossed that threshold yet, and every thing else, either I'm oblivious to it or I just haven't had the time to learn and figure out whether it works for me.

Jesse - Ok.

Rich - I think I'm also a little bit older than a lot of the other webcomic - I mean, I'm not OLD old, I'm 37, but I think a lot of the webcomic creators out there are college or just there after, and therefore are a lot more 'up' on these technologies than I am. And I use a Mac, which is not always up to speed up until very recently with the iPad explosion coming and such.

Jesse - Gotcha. Well that makes sense and I'm only a little bit younger than you, but yeah, I kinda feel similarly. If I was going to do something creative, I'd focus on that instead of the endless, like, updating of other things, personally.

Rich - Yeah, I have enough trouble keeping my own website updated, so it seems like I would just be adding more work on myself. And I had a fairly large audience before Facebook became "the" thing that everybody had to be on. I started this in 2003, I don't know exactly when Facebook started peaking, but I know that I already had a substantial audience by that point, so I don't know that I saw right away what the benefit would be, and now that I do, it looks like somebody already did a page for me, so. . . I let it be.



2A: On Whether Rich Has Time For Role-Playing

Jesse - Order of the Stick is of course a huge gaming comic so I was wondering if you still had time to do any role-playing these days?

Rich - No, no, I haven't in a while. The last role-playing I did was when I was working on... when I was gonna do Snips, Snails an Dragon Tales, the limited book with the Dragon Magazine strips, I did some 4th Edition role-playing to be sure I knew sort of what I was talking about, which I probably didn't but I can pretend better, and that was over a year ago now.

It just doesn't work, you know, it hasn't really worked out that way, that I had as much time for that as I used to, sort of fallen by the wayside, but not in a way that I'll never go back to it, just in a time way. I think you get busy at a certain point in your life, with your work and your family and your such and such, and whether or not you have time for it is sort of random, sort of up in the air. I mean, I still get a lot of that sort of fix from thinking about it, talking about it and such like that.

But in a certain point, I was always the DM when I played, and at a certain point it just feels like I'm taking that much time to craft a complex story, maybe I should just write it down and someone would pay me for it. I guess that's possibly maybe a little bit of it, because I'm now sort of essentially a professional fantasy writer, that I can't really bring myself to put the same amount of effort I did when I was in college and such and it was the focus of my creative attention.

2B: Will There Ever Be an OOTS World Created for a Gaming System?

Jesse - And along those lines, I realize that doing it at this point would probably be a mountain of effort and give too much away, but I've seen people on the forums asking if some day there would actually be an Order of the Stick world created for any sort of gaming system. Do you think you would do that if you had the time and opportunity?

Rich - Let me tell you, I started working on that a few years ago, and what happened is, I got about 20 or 30 pages in, and WotC announced 4th Edition. And I didn't know what was gonna happen with it, I didn't know whether I was gonna want to make it for that, I didn't know if making it on 3rd Edition would still be possible with the game license, would they find a way to revoke that, it was all up in the air, everything was sort of chaos and I had no idea what was gonna happen. . . so I put it aside, and then have never gone back to it since, really.

It wasn't compatible at all with 4th Edition, so therefore that wasn't going to work, and I don't know, I didn't know whether I would ever really have the direct audience that I thought it should so I think I just sort of let it lie fallow after that.

I cannibalized parts of it, the document I started working on. . . I think the last compilation I put out, Don't Split the Party had some black and white cartoons that were from that project, and I know the map that I did in the back of one of them for Azure City was actually of the Azure City country description, so you know, pieces of it have been seen here and there ever since.

But another problem was that I'd done a write up for Elan's Dashing Swordsman class, and since then I had at least three things I've put into the comic, you know. . . here's this joke about this class that has this ridiculous cliched hero abilities. . . and if I put out that class, I can't really do that any more. Can I then say "Oh, it has this ability too?" 'cause I've already taken people's money to say "This is the class that it is!." So I think it's easier to leave things vague and up in the air and just use them when I want to as humor rather than as concrete game rules.


3A: The "Darkness" of the Storyline

Jesse - As far as the storyline of the OotS goes, one thing that has definitely happened as time goes on is that, despite continuing to be funny and continuing to be a humor comic on some level, there have been some much darker elements introduced.

Rich - Yes.

Jesse - So what made you decide to take that shift and still remain with the same characters and story?

Rich - I don't know, I think I've always had a draw to that shock reveal. Not shock for the sake of shocking, but that dramatic sudden moment when something happens in the story you absolutely did not see coming and perhaps as an either darker or more impactful moment that you ever thought was possible in a work, in the work you were seeing.

I used to do that as a DM, I used to set up situations where the players thought one thing was happening the entire time, they walk in the door and see a scene that threw all their preconceptions on the ground and stomped down on them. I think I really enjoy that, I think it creates powerful moments in the story, and sometimes that means doing something dark, sometimes that means taking your comedy villain who is bored and having him slaughter a room full of Paladins with a bouncy ball. You know, because it's so perverse, and it's such a violation of their honor and law mindset, where they're these noble Paladins who will defend to the last man, and they just get destroyed like that. The goal is sort of, not offend, but bother the reader. . . it should bother them. You should look at Xykon and say "He's a horrible monster." He can still crack a funny joke, but you shouldn't be sympathetic to him, and if you are, I don't know if I necessarily I want to know about it, because that's a little scary.

And that was one of the problems with SoD, "here's the story of Xykon," but I'm not going to make him even slightly sympathetic, if anything, you're going to think worse of him by the time you're done with this. So, I think I have an affection for writing the villains, because of that ability to sort of make your jaw drop, you know, heroes can't really do that without. . . you know it's going to be. . . no one's gonna gasp when they do something specially heroic or kind. And I really don't want my heroes to be dark, with the exception of Belkar, but that's another story.

I don't want Roy to suddenly do something out of character or shocking, the closest thing I got to that was I had Haley kill off the assassin that had been harassing her, and that was still pretty surprising, and I think a lot of people didn't see it coming, but I also sort of goofed there in the sense that I cut the scene that made it more obvious that Crystal was still actively trying to kill Haley, truce or no truce, so that was something I fixed in the book. . . but it's still, it was a fairly surprising, but again, like I said, I still have to go darker to be surprising like that, so, I think that's where it comes from really.

Jesse - Ok.

3B: On Behind-The-Scenes Story Commentary In Interviews & Books

Rich - You see I'm just as wordy in my interviews as I am in the comic, it all flows naturally from me.

Jesse - Believe me, we'll have you on as long as you want to stay, if you want to just talk for twenty minutes, that's awesome. I will take one bit of fanboyish break from the interview. . . when we started this podcast, I had a couple of people who were sort of my long shot goals of people to get on the show, and you were towards the top of people I didn't think I'd get but I was gonna try anyway. So I thought you might want to know that. Again, we don't mind to listen to you talk.

Rich - Honestly, I was excited at the chance to talk about something other than Kickstarter, because I've done a bunch of interviews and they're all about Kickstarter, sometimes to the point of not even mentioning what my comic is about. They say there's no such thing as bad publicity, but at a certain point you want people to find out, I mean, the people who already know what my comic is about, already know what my comic is about, so they don't need to get the spiel but I like being able to talk about it, actually about my comic and not how much money I can raise.

Jesse - Sure. As someone who writes as well, not professionally unfortunately, I know it is sort of fun to be able to talk about the creative process, because it one of those things the readers never see, they don't know what's going on in your head while you're doing it.

Rich - Sure, that's why I do the commentary in the books, they're sort of what I would think to talk about, that's not always what someone who is reading would think to talk about or want to know about, so they're not always exactly what people are looking for in terms of behind the scenes.

3C: What Is The Comic About?

Jesse - Ok, I think David wants to ask you a couple of questions. I've been crowding the mic so I'll let him ask a couple of things. . .

David - So, you mentioned nobody asks you what your comic is about... what is your comic about?

Rich - My comic is a comedy adventure fantasy comic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, essentially, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order, so they get their personal problems taken care of before the final battle. And it's a comedy.

3D: On The Comic & D&D Rules

Specially in the early parts it has a lot of role-playing games... the whole thing is sort of within the framework of Dungeons and Dragons. The early strips made many explicit references to this, specially for jokes. The later strips just use it as the framework of the world, in terms of deciding what kinds of spells can a sorcerer cast, what kinds of spells can a cleric cast, etc. etc. I don't really worry about "oh, this character doesn't have enough hit bonus to... you know, let me roll the dice", if the story needs him to hit, he hits, if the story needs him to miss, he misses.

There's a certain segment of my fans who think that's grossly unfair. Not that they necessarily believe I should roll the dice, but they believe that the percentages should be accurately represented, so that if somebody swings their sword at someone 20 times, they should hit a number of times equal to their, you know, relative attack bonus blah blah blah. That doesn't happen, that's not something I worry about.

But yeah, it's essentially a fantasy adventure quest story, of a warrior out to avenge his father against a sorcerer, and the sorcerer happens to be trying to conquer the world at the same time. That's a nutshell. And it's stick figures, that needs to be said. If you're picturing that in the most elaborate fantasy artwork, that's not what we're talking about. They're basically really simplistic colorful block characters going about this.

3E: Creating the Character Wall Poster

Jesse - You can't see this, but behind us in the studio is the big double poster of all the characters.

Rich - Hah! That took forever.

Jesse - I can tell.

Rich - What's funny is I had worked on it, and then had to put it aside, and when I got back to it I had introduced like 4 new characters that had to go on. I had to find room for Tarquin and Malack and Kil-Kil over in the corner of the villains poster, and I put Captain Malack's helmet on... not Malack, Tarquin's helmet on. He was still new enough that I thought people who weren't caught up to the story, I didn't want them to see who he was before. . . you know some people only read the books. . . yeah, so, did that at the last minute.

3F: On Fanart & Whether Roy Wears Pants

David - It's funny, I just saw some fanart for Order of the Stick, but it was drawn like Frank Frazetta.

Rich - [Laughs] Yes.

David - Super detailed, very. . .

Rich - Yeah, what I always find interesting is the choices they make for the parts of the characters that are really not be able to tell what's going on because they're sticks. I've seen fanart that was really realistic of Roy fighting except for some reason he had no pants, like he had one armor piece over his torso but his legs were bare. That's why I think at one point I had Haley make a crack about how she's wearing long pants but you can't tell because she's a stick figure. Because I wanted to put a stop of that, I wanted no more pantless Roy. That's a whole other direction that I'm sure is out there on the Internet, but I don't need to see it.

David - Well, that kills my next question. . .

Rich - [Laughs]

3G: Putting an End to the Crack Pairings Thread

David - Once again, on the forum for a while, there was a whole section of people. . .

Rich - Oh, yeah. We had to slay that once people started crossing some lines. Once they crossed the Elan - Nale incest line, we had to put a stop to that. . .

David - As well you should.

Rich - Yeah, exactly.

David - There are some weird people there. . .

4A: On Keeping Fantasy New and Interesting

David - There's a question though: can Fantasy be taken seriously anymore?

Rich - You mean in the sense that a lot of it is recycled? A lot of it is the same sort of material all over again? I think so. I think there's definitely something to say with fantasy still. Order of the Stick is in many ways sort of a critique I guess, a spoof of a lot of fantasy cliches, but once you see the cliches, you dodge them. I mean, there's plenty of fantasy writers who don't do the same old "warriors on a quest" thing, which I'm doing but by way of sort of turning it on it's head. I think there's plenty of room in fantasy for unique stories.

I think the number one thing people can do to make their fantasy something new and interesting is to not marry it to the same old medieval sort of time period for no apparent reason. I mean, if magic exists in a world, why can't it exist in a different historical setting. I think there's still plenty to say, and I think there's still plenty for me to make fun of, so, you know, hopefully that will keep going on both sides.

4B: TVTropes & Lazy Criticism

David - Question: We have talked about TVTropes, even mentioned the name. . .

Rich - [Laughs] Sorry, what was the question?

David - The thing is, they have sort of these shorthands, like he's the "Chosen One," he'll save us from "the Dragon" or "the Evil Wizard."

Rich - Yeah, like the next thing that happens would have to be the thing that happens 'cause this thing happened because the trope said so.

David - Yes. I mean, do you think it's possible just to divorce completely. . . to walk away and do something else?

Rich - It's hard. There was a point in time a few years back when I felt like every time I put out a strip the number one response to it was "Oh, he's just doing this trope", "he's just doing that trope", you know, and put a link to it, "see, he's just not original at all". And I don't know whether that just became less popular as a way of sort of pigeonholing things, or whether I've actually broken enough of them now that nobody assumes they know what's gonna happen next. But one way or another that doesn't seem to happen as much anymore.

People try to sort of guess what I'm gonna do, and I hopefully kick it in the shins and run away laughing. But I think there's a danger of over simplification of literature, of becoming so wrapped up in these compartments that put every element of the story that you sort of miss the story. It's sort of like a lazy criticism. Criticism in the classic sense of actually doing a critical piece, not in a complaining way. It lets you churn out an analysis of a work without putting much thought into it. I think it's fun to point to the website and see the different ways different works do the same sort of cliches, not in a bad sense, but I do think there's a danger in taking them too seriously as the 'be all, end all' of literary criticism.

D - Yes, indeed. I have read a lot of fantasy, and it's always like "here's the Chosen One, here's the Local, here's the obviously evil sorcerer who betrays everyone. . ."

Rich - Yeah, exactly. I think fantasy is more prone to that than almost any other genre. And that's partly because there have been a few titans of the genre who sort of formed everything that was to come after.

And also honestly because of Dungeons and Dragons. I think people playing D&D has reinforced certain stereotypes in their mind [unintelligible] RPGs that follow the same tropes and all of these sort of things, has reinforced this sort of monolithic fantasy from which few authors deviate and, well, so. . . but there's a lot of the same old same old out there too. So I think fantasy gets probably a lot more of those, those tropes listed, than almost any other genre.

You know, Science Fiction, I'm a huge SF fan, SF is, every story you read is esentially a completely different setting, I'm sure, Space Opera stuff tends to be a lot of the same, whatever, but you can just go off and do something wildly different and still be Science Fiction, and I think less people do that with Fantasy these days.

4C: Public Perception of D&D

David - You mentioned the impact of Dungeons and Dragons. There was a huge backlash against D&D. . .

Rich - Yeah, sure.

David - Do you think we're likely to see something like that again?

Rich - I don't think so. I mean, there's certainly always going to be people who are still going to say the same charges against it, you know, that are still gonna say the things that weren't true then, and still aren't. But I don't think it's wildly circulating. I think because it was new then, people didn't know what was going on, didn't know what this thing was, and then they got a lot of misinformation from various sources, and the media picked it up and ran with it as a media scare. And now it's old news. It's been around for thirty and some odd years, you don't get articles in the media about Dungeons and Dragons making people sacrifice goats . . . "Dungeons and Dragons is coming out with a new edition, because D&D owner Hasbro has released this information in this press conference, blah blah blah."

So I think that's not gonna resurface. I mean just the fact that it's owned by Hasbro now gives it a legitimacy that I think it probably didn't have back in the day, when it was owned by a bunch of guys in Wisconsin [interference] gives it a "Oh, obviously it has to be OK, it is owned by the company that does Mr. Potato Head." And I don't think it's in Hasbro's interest to let those kind of stories exist.

When you're a big corporation, you kinda get that power in the sense that if they're going to do a story about Dungeons and Dragons, they're going to immediately walk up to your Hasbro or WotC and ask for a quote, and then their sort of media team will take care of it from there. But I think the days of mass hysteria scare about D&D are behind us at this point.

Jesse - I think there are bigger scapegoats now as well.

Rich - Yeah, absolutely, there's the Internet and all of it's glory. Playing D&D seems downright quaint now, you can find people who are in their 50s who've been playing D&D for 30 years, it's not. . . you know, in detriment of the hobby, but it's not something that all teenagers are flocking to these days. When you're 13 you're like "Hey, let's go play D&D tonight!" You have to get those kids into the hobby in a way that isn't really happening right now. I'd say as long as it's not threatening tomorrow's children I think it'll stay on the right side of the public opinion.

4D: [I]Jack Chick & Tom Hanks

David - Speaking of threatening children, what we do on the show... are you familiar with the Jack Chick comic Dark Dungeons?

Rich - I am, vaguely, passingly familiar, as much as any long time D&D player could be.

David - We might have to do a show on Jack Chick.

Rich - I like to think of my comic as a sort of tribute to the great comic that had come before. Could I have done a Dungeons and Dragons themed comic if not, like I said, if not, if the giants of the genre had not put forth that independent comic creation of lore?

Jesse - Dark Dungeons was a very interesting book. I would say it's not even close to the craziest thing Jack Chick has ever done.

Rich - Yeah, not top ten really.

David - No. But the thing I love about his. . .

Rich - [unintelligible] it wasn't as crazy, he's gone really off the [unintelligible] then, then it probably wouldn't have been taken seriously until this day.

David - Well, according to Dark Dungeons, apparently the sourcebook is an actual spell book, from which you can actually, literally just call up the devil and say "hey."

Rich - Spells, yeah, exactly. I've certainly heard that. All I can say is I think the copies I've been using must be defective in some way, either there's a misprint or a page missing because I've been playing the game since I was 11 or 12 and I've yet to actually cast a magic spell, deeply disappointed at that.

David - How about Mazes and Monsters?

Rich - Oh yeah. Tom Hanks has a lot to answer for.

David - Yes he does.

Rich - [unintelligible]

Jesse - He unleashed Forrest Gump upon the world, he has to pay for that. Now we get into Dave's axe grind.

Rich - Personal media vendetta should actually be the title of this podcast.

David - He knows what he did.

Jesse - Where gonna try to get him on the show for a reconciliation. They're gonna hug each other on the air.

Rich - Or just volleyball with him.


5A: Rich's Favorite Characters to Write Jokes For

Jesse - Back into the Order of the Stick a little bit as far as the characters, to talk a little about the characters. I have my theories on this, but I'm wondering if you have a personal favorite character as far as writing.

Rich - It depends on whether you mean. Writing the jokes or writing the personality and internal conflicts? Jokes is easy: Belkar, with Elan a close second. You've got your sort of. . . either your violence jokes or your bad person gets their comeuppance jokes with Belkar, and then Elan has your dumb jokes, has your silliness, has your kinda child-like comedy, and I like writing both of those.

5B: Rich's Favorite Characters to Write Drama / Character Struggles For

As far as writing a personal sort of inner thoughts on your life, whatever, things (sic) I really like writing Haley a lot. She's got issues, I think she's probably got the most legitimate issues of the people in the Order, and that makes her interesting to write. It's interesting how she's going to react, based on her upbringing and sort of what she's been through in her life to this situation or that situation.

I think that makes it more. . . to you, Elan's pretty straightforward, you know what he's gonna do. You may not know in the sense that it's something completely random and off the wall and pull out a hand puppet and start worshiping it, but you know he's gonna do something weird and silly and ultimately harmless, because he's a good person, and nothing bad is gonna happen to him as a result.

And you know Belkar's gonna do the opposite, he'll take the most awful, irredeeming sort of path that he can find and get away with.

But you don't know what Haley's gonna do in a situation. She wants to be a good person, but she wasn't raised that way, she was raised to be a thief. And so she sort of has to struggle with being a hero, what comes easily to, well, it comes pretty easily to Roy. He'll snap at people, he'll be sort of verbally abusive, but he's not gonna... he's never attempted to do the wrong thing, really.

Jesse - There was the one time, but...

Rich - Yeah. Exactly, and that was a big point of development for him. But really, since then, that was within the first 150 or 160 strips, so for the majority of the comic's lifetime he's been pretty clear on what he should be doing.

5C: Vaarsuvius' Moral Conflict

Jesse - It seems like Vaarsuvius has become a character with a lot of internal moral conflict recently as well.

Rich - That's true, that is correct, and that was a conscious sort of effort on my part, because I felt like Vaarsuvius had been underutilized. . . by the end of the War and XPs book I felt like Vaarsuvius was sort of. . . "and then we have an elf!" Which is a problem I still have with Durkon but I have plans to address as well.

And so I think I crafted almost all of Don't Split the Party around "let's [unintelligible] a better arc". . . some of it I had planned already, some of it I already knew that when I did the first. . . spoiler by the way, if anyone hasn't read this. . . when I did the first small black dragon, that I was gonna have the older one come back and be a villain in some point that would attack Vaarsuvius for what he or she had done. But the sort of sell your soul angle was a little more recent, and more of an attempt to really get at what Vaarsuvius issues were in life. So that sort of dovetailed nicely into one story that I'm really happy with.

5D: The Storyline & the D&D Alignment System

Jesse - That brings - the whole idea of the Black Dragon and the demons - brings up another thing, which is the idea that you seem to play a lot with: the idea of Evil, like, there's a huge variety of villainous characters with motivations all across the spectrum from, you know, and in some ways it seems like the comic tries to deconstruct that. In other ways it plays it straight. . .

Rich - More like, I think both are valid, you know what I mean? Both are ways of looking at the problem, and I think again ,getting back to the history of fantasy literature, I think there are an awful lot of cardboard cutout tackling [unintelligible] villainy out there, and that's a choice to make when you're writing your story, and I sort of want to have it both ways, I want to be able to have villainy villains, and at the same time, not writing a character that doesn't make sense, not writing a character that doesn't have a motivation to what they're doing.

And I think there's a lot of debate among my fans, because they're not necessarily used to seeing that from fantasy villains, especially when it comes to Black Dragons, undead sorcerers, and Goblins who are out to destroy the Gods. You expect those sort of characters to be very straightforward, and I try to make it a little more complex than that, which, I was thinking, readers, in this [unintelligible] open up alternate interpretations, people would swear that 'cause Redcloak thinks what he's doing is the best for the Goblin people, that Redcloak is in fact the good guy, that he is the hero of the story. And that's... an interesting viewpoint. And I'm glad that I provoked that. I'm glad that I wrote a character that is layered enough that some people would say he's absolutely in the right, but yeah, I really like turning it upside down and not assuming that because it's a Dragon it has no emotions. I think D&D appeals to people who are much more Math & Science oriented, that. . . I can sort of surprise them more by delving into the emotional side of things, and they don't see that coming, if they're D&D fans. And people who are generally fiction fans just enjoy it on it's own merits.

Jesse - So, it comes out to not being as simple as the nine simple moral codes that D&D ascribes to.

Rich - Yeah, and I think one of the themes of Order of the Stick is there's this guide alignment system in D&D where it places every single person in one of these nine moral codes, and for the entire history of the game, that I've played it, people have been complaining that that's overly simplistic. "Oh, it's more complicated than that." And it absolutely is more complicated than that, but they're also doing it wrong. They think because they have this alignment they have to act this way, this one specific given way, and I think each one of those categories is so wide open to interpretation.

And that was a lot of what Miko Misayaki was about, was that she's lawful good, but she's a complete bitch, you wouldn't want to spend time with her at all. And I think that was sort of the flip side of the sympathetic villain: the unsympathetic hero. Or at least good guy. So yeah, I definitely like to subvert expectations in that specific way, because I think the alignment system gets a bad rap from people who aren't trying to make it work, and say "that's overly simplistic."

Jesse: Yeah, I certainly enjoy the alignments for the same reason that you do. I agree that it doesn't have to be super simple. I don't know if you've done this, but have you ever sat around talking about characters in stories and what their alignments were, or your friends for that matter?

Rich: Yeah, back in the day. We used to. . . it's usually a good way to try to explain to new players of D&D how it works, you pick the sort of archetypical characters. But one of the problems with that is that those characters will be associated forever in that mind with what that alignment is. And I also think there's some naming flaws with the alignment. I think by calling one of the alignments "lawful" they've created thirty years of people thinking it means you have to obey every last "keep off the grass" sort of law. And that's not really what it's supposed to mean, it's supposed to mean sort of an ordered way of thinking, having a personal code, having a set of tenets that is greater than yourself.

Jesse: I think that may come from Elric, and Michael Moorcock having the whole. . .

Rich: It absolutely comes from Elric. He did Law and Chaos, those were his two. And you know, he didn't have to worry about a billion people trying to interpret what he meant by that, he just needed to present it in the context of his stories. So no negative to him for doing so, but I think it was adopted and has been argued and debated ever since by people playing the game.

5E: On Keeping Plot Twists Secret

Jesse: As someone who works pretty hard at keeping your story twists shocking and such, do you have anyone that you've brainstormed with, or is it just something you keep completely secret until you're ready to do the big reveal?

Rich: I keep a lot of it internal. I write down notes, I think of things, and sometimes I think of things and change them later. Not deeply, I think my main plot points have been the same since I started really thinking about the plot and sort of sketched out things that would happen, but there are certainly minor details that change at the time I'm writing the scripts. Certainly moment by moment actions can change, twist or whatever in a way if I think of something more interesting at the time that I'm writing it than I did five years ago. Then I go with that, but really the big moments have all been pretty close to how I pictured them a long time ago.

Sometimes, some of these things are where I would be, I would write down a note like "and then they go to the desert." And I knew that when they got to the desert, Tarquin would be there, and they would do some desert-ey stuff with him before going back, before finding out what they needed to find and then go back out. But I didn't really get too worried about what happened in his empire until I was starting to plot this story arc, because it didn't really, it affected them personally but it didn't change the plot with Xykon and Redcloak, so I had the sort of freedom to put that on the shelf until I got to it. Now I would think from here we'll sort of flow more from what I just did than it would have previously, sort of work that back in.

Jesse: The current arc seems to be a lot about family.

Rich: Sure.

5F: The Desert Plot Arc & Law vs. Chaos

Jesse: Actually. . . I've bounced this theory around, but I wanted to ask you if this was something you intended or if it's just my imagination. For the most part, a lot of the conflicts in the book have been about good and evil, but I felt like in the current arc, it's been more about conflicts between law and chaos, would you say that was intentional?

Rich: Absolutely intentional. I mean, I think good and evil are easily grasped, and I think it's a little less intuitive for people to really understand law and chaos, as they are - if they exist - as concepts. Because here you have Tarquin, for most of the first part of the story, is evil, is just straight up evil. But he loves his son. He cares about family. He likes his empire running orderly. He doesn't just sort of go around slaughtering people for kicks. He has a plan, he has a goal, which he's sort of executing step by step. He's not Xykon. He's not this sort of crazy force of evil. You can almost picture Tarquin existing in the real world.

So I think yeah, absolutely -- and then Ian, Haley's father Ian, is sort of the opposite. He's a good guy, but he's abrasive, paranoid, a little bit crazy, a little bit off the deep end, not really together because he's sort of so chaotic that he kinda can't detach from that. He can't be not chaotic for a moment and see the way things are really kinda going on around him. So yeah, I think there's definitely that undercurrent.

Jesse: Yeah. And I noticed sort of the idea of Girard Draketooth and his real hatred of Soon Kim, the two of them being very lawful and very chaotic.

Rich: Right, exactly. Where you would, I think most people would immediately go "yeah, but-but Soon Kim was a paladin, he wouldn't do something bad," and you have to see that to Girard's point of view, just the sort of organiz-- that a man doesn't create a secret organization of warriors unless he plans to use it for something. You know what I mean, the sort of. . . expecting-the-worst-in-human-nature-at-all-times pessimism that says that if Soon Kim is gonna make this sort of legion of magical warriors and keep them secret from his populace, that clearly he's up to something.

And there's also, I mean there are certain events that happened in that history between Girard and Soon Kim that have not been revealed that will certainly maybe make him seem a little less paranoid than he does right now, but not not-paranoid. But yeah, there's more there going on with what happened with the Order of the Scribble than has been revealed. But that's all gonna be unwound as the story comes towards its conclusion. There's more to learn, I mean, they had to go find Girard right now, so some pieces will be found then, I'm sure.

5G: The Possibility of an Order of the Scribble Prequel Book

Jesse: Do you think you may do a prequel book about the Order of the Scribble someday, or is that not something you're sure about?

Rich: I wouldn't rule it out, but I don't currently have any plans to and I wouldn't know what I would do with it. I think the main thrust of their story needs to be included in the online strip. You need to know exactly what happened all that time ago that made them so angry at each other in order to understand the main story. So therefore I wouldn't want to shunt it to a side book. When it needs to be told, it needs to be front and center, and then once it's been told, it'll influence what people think about the characters after that.

So I wouldn't want it to be. . . I had told much of the story, much of the things that Redcloak revealed to Tsukiko in the recent strip about how he was tricking Xykon was already known by people who had read Start of Darkness. But it didn't sort of change what was going to happen next for them to have known it separately. But anything about the Order of the Scribble isn't really like that. It's important in a way that would change things, and therefore it can't be let out of the bag early. But by the same token, I wouldn't object to writing a story of them just fighting Baron Pineapple, or something like that. Certainly wouldn't have any problems with that, but I think the main conflict between them is gonna be in the main comic at some point.

5H: The Kickstarter Donor's Choice Stories

Jesse: Okay. Well, speaking of that, I'm gonna take it back to the kickstarter for just one second.

Rich: Sure.

Jesse: Which was that several people bought stories about characters that they wanted you to write about. And I know you said for a while those had not been revealed to you yet. Has that come about yet, do you know who those characters are going to be?

Rich: Three people have bought them, I've only been contacted by two of them so far. I contacted all of them and have only heard back so far from two of them, they both gave me sort of a spectrum answer of, "I like this character and that character but I wouldn't mind if it was this character." So I haven't nailed down the final list for them. I'm waiting for what the final third person says, because if two of them both pick the same character, then I'm definitely gonna do that one, but otherwise I might pick some of the ones that appeal more to me. So far the ones that have been floated are Therkla, the assassin, the half-orc, the Cliffport police department, do a detective-spoof sort of something like that, and the demon roaches. . . [NB: As of 3/16/2012 the stories are Pre-Order Belkar, Therkla, and the Cliffport Police Department - ThePhantasm] which I've no idea what I would do, but maybe I'll come up with some idea and throw that out there and then some other options beyond that. But then again, it's that I still haven't heard from the third person, so that could be something totally in left field still coming our way.

Jesse: Cool, cool, cool.

5I: The Conclusion of the Storyline

David: I know a lot of webcomics authors say, "well I have a very specific end and that's it." Is Order of the Stick actually gonna have a conclusion, or do you just wanna keep on writing it?

Rich: No, no. It has a conclusion. I know exactly how it ends. I think every single plotline that I've introduced has a definitive conclusion to it that will be in the main comic. It's not gonna be ignored or just left hanging forever. There's definitely gonna be a final book of the main storyline.

But that being said, one of the reasons I've been sort of experimenting with some of these side projects is that there's plenty of room for these characters to keep doing stories. I think they're well-defined characters, and I can always go back. That's why I've been doing things like the Stick Tales and. . . which is the characters telling the story of a famous work but using themselves, sort of like what the Muppets used to do. Then things like Julio Scoundrel spinning off sorta into his own crazy land of comic book type of and that kind of stuff will let me create even when I've moved on to what I'm gonna do next in the world, after the Order of the Stick. I can still come back and do an Order of the Stick related project, even though the story, the plot, has reached its proper conclusion and so on. So I guess I'm sort of setting up now for what will happen next.

5J: How Much Story Is Left To Tell

Jesse: And I think I've read in interviews or in things you've written that the comic is more than halfway done at this point?

Rich: Oh yeah, definitely more than. . . well, I say that, but you should take it with a grain of salt because I run long. Things are always longer than I plan them out to be because I always think of things in the middle that need to be addressed, either they're logical concerns or a character moment that needs to happen in order for it to be emotionally realistic. So then there will be an extra strip here, an extra strip there, and it'll add up. So it's definitely more than halfway done in terms of number of books, but the number of strips left, I don't even have a clue what that's gonna end up being. Some people are all "he's gonna plan to end it at strip 1000." Absolutely not. It will go way past strip 1000 because we're already at 833 and we're not done with this book yet, and there's at least two more books left. So yeah. It's to go. If you're not a reader, there's still plenty of time to jump on.



Jesse: I personally have all the books. No big surprise there considering as I've told you I have the poster on my wall. So I think we're gonna wrap it up, but I just wanna ask you, do you have anything else you'd like to add, or anything you'd like to plug or mention?

Rich: Kickstarter's still running at http://www.kickstarter.com, you can find it by typing in "Order of the Stick." My website's http://www.GiantITP.com, and so on and so forth.

Jesse: But I wouldn't ask you to spoil the comic even though I want to be like, "what's gonna happen next?" But I understand that would be unfair.

Rich: I am proud of you for not asking me either Vaarsuvius' gender, or what the Monster in the Darkness is, or how Belkar's gonna die. Those three questions everyone asks.

Jesse: Yeah, I figured you keep those things a secret for a reason, and it would be lost if you were to just blab it out. So I tried not to ask those.

Rich: Two of them are really important and one of them is so not important that it doesn't even need to be answered.

Jesse: Exactly.

Rich: I'll let you figure out which ones are which.

Jesse: Exactly. All right, well then I think that's all the time we have, but I would like to thank Rich Burlew one last time for being on with us.

Rich: Thank you for having me.

Jesse: Of course. I'm Jesse Baruffi.

David: And I'm David Lawrence. And you can reach us at [email protected].

Jesse: And go to our website at http://non-productive.com/geekademia. And that's it.

[ThePhantasm]

Welcome to the new index! The index is rapidly growing, so this post and the one below it have been reserved just in case the index outgrows the first three posts.

INDEX UPDATES:
The previous version. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195)

The Index of the Giant's Comments 2.1 | 2.2

[ThePhantasm]

______________________ The Index of the Giant's Comments ______________________

Presented by
The Phantasm

[The Linker]

All that voting on suggestions for the new title, and you didn't use any of them? gasp :smalleek:

Or other important stuff is still being dealt with and it'll be edited soon. :smalltongue:

[Fitzclowningham]

Thanks for all your work on this. So useful!

[Flame of Anor]

We want our new title!

[Jasdoif]

Here are the quote proposals still outstanding from the last thread:


Rich has not read George R. R. Martin (08/22/2013; #913): Also mentions a few deliberate stylistic decisions.

"Xykon is feeling chilly today" (11/04/2013; #928): Covert form of "The highest priority target is the guy with the scarf".

[ChristianSt]

I really like the new title - great choice imo!

I personally would include a link to the old thread somewhere - can't hurt to be able to find the old thread if needed.

Also I wouldn't feature that Google search that much, I would put it more at the end of the index (or even inside a spoiler). It isn't really that helpful to find a specific quote (so it might be even better to not say "search the Giant's post history" but something else - my first thought was that it is a handy link that unrolls all spoilers or something like that, not that imo not really useful Google search.)

ThePhantasm, I think your older signature was much clearer.
I don't think "IGC" is anywhere used to address the Index, and I only clicked on it because I thought your signature just had to have a link to it (which in fact it was).
So if you want to provide it to "attract/point" other users to this thread, I think a non-abbreviated link would be better.

(And thanks for doing this - you are making an incredible job at maintaining this great thread!)

[dps]

Here are the quote proposals still outstanding from the last thread:


Rich has not read George R. R. Martin (08/22/2013; #913): Also mentions a few deliberate stylistic decisions.

"Xykon is feeling chilly today" (11/04/2013; #928): Covert form of "The highest priority target is the guy with the scarf".

I think both should be included. On a certain level, I think it's kind of sad that they need to be--as others have said, Martin didn't invent the idea of killing off characters, and frankly I don't see how you could read the comic and not realize that the Xykon comment was code (and what the code meant), but people do ask.

[Bulldog Psion]

Love the title. :smallbiggrin: I hope that the third thread will be "The Index Revolutions." :smallcool:

[Kurald Galain]

This probably needs a subtitle, because otherwise new readers will have no idea of what this thread is an index of. It could be something like "The Index Reloaded - listing The Giant's comments".

[Debatra]

This probably needs a subtitle, because otherwise new readers will have no idea of what this thread is an index of. It could be something like "The Index Reloaded - listing The Giant's comments".

The Giant's Comments II: Index Reloaded

[Orm-Embar]

The Giant's Comments II: Index Reloaded

^^ This.

Also thank you for maintaining this! It is a fascinating resource and a big help at times.

[Emanick]

The Giant's Comments II: Index Reloaded

Ooooh, I like that. This, please.

[ThePhantasm]

This probably needs a subtitle, because otherwise new readers will have no idea of what this thread is an index of. It could be something like "The Index Reloaded - listing The Giant's comments".

Title fixed.

[Oakianus]

Where do I go to find the Giant's comments on Italian food, though?!

[ThePhantasm]

I really like the new title - great choice imo!

I personally would include a link to the old thread somewhere - can't hurt to be able to find the old thread if needed.

Yeah, I need to add an "update history" section that I just haven't gotten to yet... I'll probably add it later this evening (I'm thinking it will feature the latest quotes, etc. so it will be a bit more involved than the last one). It'll have a link to the old thread.


Also I wouldn't feature that Google search that much, I would put it more at the end of the index (or even inside a spoiler). It isn't really that helpful to find a specific quote (so it might be even better to not say "search the Giant's post history" but something else - my first thought was that it is a handy link that unrolls all spoilers or something like that, not that imo not really useful Google search.)

I wasn't sure what else to call it. If you have a suggestion let me know. I featured it prominently because SOOOO many people asked for a chronologically ordered list of comments / quotes in the last thread.

[ChristianSt]

Yeah, I need to add an "update history" section that I just haven't gotten to yet... I'll probably add it later this evening (I'm thinking it will feature the latest quotes, etc. so it will be a bit more involved than the last one). It'll have a link to the old thread.
No need to hurry. I fought you maybe have dropped the update history, so wanted only to point out I would like a link to the old thread. So if you add an update history again, that would be a sweet place for such a link.



I wasn't sure what else to call it. If you have a suggestion let me know. I featured it prominently because SOOOO many people asked for a chronologically ordered list of comments / quotes in the last thread.
I wasn't really sure what to call it, so I didn't want provide a term. But why don't just simply call it "chronologically ordered list"?.
I just have the feeling it distracts from what we are doing here. (Some people might say: "Hey there is a searchable history of the Giant's comments, why I need to look inside one of the spoiler boxes then?").

And how the layout works it suggests (at least to me) that this Google link is the main work of this thread and the spoiler boxes with the actual relevant content are only some sort of decoration.

[ThePhantasm]

And how the layout works it suggests (at least to me) that this Google link is the main work of this thread and the spoiler boxes with the actual relevant content are only some sort of decoration.

I'll try to think of another place to put it. Part of me wants it to be obvious and easy to find so people won't keep coming in here expecting the index to be some replacement for the Giant's disabled post history (not realizing that it was disabled months after the index was first created!). I mean, if that's all they want, to see every post the Giant ever posted, then maybe the index isn't for them...

Maybe I should insert a little blurb explaining what the index is for?

[ChristianSt]

Another thing: I personally would find another column order to be better readable, since the most important thing (imo the content of the quote) should be left and the least important (imo the date) should be right.

I made a simple Perl script to permute the order of the columns.


The Index of the Giant's Comments II
Version 2.0


with thanks to Xapi, B.Dandelion, Jasdoif, & theangelJean
and to Jesse Baruffi and David Lawrence of Geekademia
and special thanks to Rich Burlew

How to Contribute: Suggest new quotes to be included! Read the guidelines first. Then, when suggesting a new quote, also mention the date of the quote if possible, as well as a brief summary of what it says. The more helpful information you give, the faster the index can be updated.


| Search the Giant's Post History (https://www.google.com/search?q=site:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/+%22The+drive+is+over,+but+keep+updated+on+the+whe n+the+rewards+are+coming%22&tbs=qdr:y,sbd:1) |

These rules were decided by forum vote. They specify what sorts of comments are suitable for inclusion in the Index and what sorts are not. This thread is run by its caretaker in accordance with forumgoer consensus.

Rule A: The quote or comment must still be accessible online.

1) | This includes the use of The Internet Wayback Machine and other methods of accessing comments that may not still exist in the archive.

2) | This does not include second-hand sources, like "I remember Rich said this, but the thread does not exist anymore." Even if you are 100% certain Rich said that, if the quote is not demonstrable or provable it cannot be included.

3) | This does not include Rich's commentary in books or in any medium that cannot be legally accessed for free.

Rule B: The Index is for collecting only quotes that have to do with the Order of the Stick comic or other fiction works by Rich Burlew.

1) | This excludes non-comic-related opinions, statements, etc. from Rich. So if he says "I like Italian food" or something like that, it is not to be included.

2) | This may include information related to the comic, like Rich's views on Dungeons and Dragons, book publishing, art design, etc. . . so long as these quotes are still within the sphere of comic-related discussion. Uncertainty should be decided by thread poster consensus.

3) | This excludes GiTP forum rules, updates, or general information. That is for the admins and mods to publicize and spread word about, not this index.

Rule C: The index is a forum tool, meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion. Thus, while the index may be fun to read through on a whim, this is not its primary purpose or focus - it is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection. It is for discussions more than it is for leisurely reading.

Rule D: If two quotes seem to contradict each other, only the quote that illustrates Rich's most recent and current opinion or position will be included. This is because of rule c). The index is not meant to be a complete collection for leisurely reading. It is meant to be an accurate research aid for forum discussions.

Rule E: Quotes that contain redundant information need not be included. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment.

Rule F: The index-keeper (ThePhantasm) has the job of updating the index in keeping with thread-goer consensus.

1) | He may reorganize the index if deemed necessary, though all reorganizations can be reversed by majority vote.

2) | He may immediately add a comment to the index without any vote, discussion, or consensus required if the comment obviously is in accordance with these agreed rules.

3) | He may never fully "reject" a comment's inclusion, however, he may postpone its inclusion until further discussion (and, if the divide in opinion appears even, a vote) decides the matter.

4) | If a comment's inclusion is uncertain, a vote requires a clear majority. If there is a tie the comment will not be included. The majority must have at least 2 more votes than the minority. Remember, the purpose of the discussions and votes are to reach some measure of consensus, not division.


{table=head]{colsp=3}
General Information
Alignment and Authorial IntentWhat does Rich mean when he says X character is Y alignment?|#903|07/23/2013

Alignment and EnvironmentEnor and Gannji were not operating wholly outside the ethical framework of the Empire of Blood. This doesn't change the nature of their acts but does mean that the acts are not as indicative of their overall alignment as some might suppose.|#812|10/25/2011
Elan and Nale's ParentageHow did it affect their alignment? Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed. Elan spared Nale's life because of Elan's understanding of what it means to be good.|#815|11/18/2011[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
D&D and Alignment
D&D's Alignment SystemThoughts on how it could be improved.|#838|02/18/2012

Usefulness of the alignment system in D&D gamesA great aid for teaching new inexperienced players how to roleplay.|#921|09/29/2013

D&D, Alignment, and MoralityRich on the comic's criticism of the way D&D has been played for over three decades. "D&D cannot and should not begin and end at black-and-white, and indeed already doesn't, if everyone would just learn to look at things a little more complexly." See also here (D&D "racism" and alignment) and here (the real world applicability of Redcloak's story).|#835|02/14/2012
On Being Lawful GoodBeing Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS.|#281|02/15/2006
More on Being LawfulMore on being Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS.|#891|06/03/2013
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Specific Characters
{colsp=3}
Evil Characters
Belkar is Chaotic Evil____________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________|#251|12/01/2005

Redcloak is Evil|#830|01/23/2012

Nale, Sabine, and Thog are all Evil|#142|01/20/2005

Tarquin is Lawful Evil|#763|12/07/2010

{colsp=3}
Good Characters

Durkon is Lawful Good|#798|07/27/2011

Shojo's Chaotic GovernmentShojo's Chaotic government was still good, not evil.|#891|06/06/2013

{colsp=3}
Neutral Characters

Enor & Gannji are True Neutral|#812|10/24/2011

V is True Neutral|#801|08/17/2011

Who Else is Neutral A long list of Neutral characters in the comic. See also here.|#903|07/22/2013
[/table]


{table=head]{colsp=3}
General
How the Giant Writes and Draws the StripsAnd an answer to the question - why are certain strips several pages long?|#896|06/28/2013

Art Should Challenge Preconceptions|#891|06/07/2013

Light and ArtThe art style doesn't show lighting and shading, much like how it doesn't show noses.|#871|02/26/2013

Speech BubblesDon't overthink them... they are subservient to the story. Malack's bubbles are only black when he "vamps out."|#870|02/18/2013

Examples of Rich's Non-Stick-Figure Art TalentRich's mad art skills on showcase. Also more here.|#848|04/11/2012

True Subjective View In 843V gets cornered.|#843|03/07/2012

Why the Strip Titles Aren't Above the StripThe titles are "bonus" jokes. Rich prefers not to put them above the strip itself.|#759|11/20/2010

Character Appearances & Forum SpeculationSometimes a cigar is just a cigar. For example, just because two persons have similar hairstyles doesn't mean they are related.|#683|10/06/2009[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Art & Magic
Meld Into StoneArt trumps rules accuracy here in order to show the warping of the spell effect.|#859|07/26/2012

CounterspellingThe Giant doesn't use different art to differentiate between counterspelling with Dispel Magic and counterspelling with the same spell.|#830|01/23/2012

Spell ColorsThe colors come from the spellcaster's choice or personality, and not their alignment or the types of magic.|#731|06/28/2010

InvisibilityWhy the art for invisible characters isn't consistent (utility trumps consistency).|#706|03/15/2010[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Art & Merchandise
Characters and MerchandiseThe presence, absence, position, or style of any character on any piece of merchandise has no bearing on any future (or past) plot points.|#816|11/22/2011

Black and White BooksThey are unlikely to ever be colorized, and were not originally in color. Rich drew them in black and white.|#781|03/16/2011

The Oracle's Location on the OOTS PosterDon't read too much into it.|#744|09/05/2010[/table]



{table=head]{colsp=3}
Accuracy
Rules Accuracy In The Comic"If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading."|#801|08/17/2011

Rules Accuracy In The Comic, IICase in point: Rich avoids the D&D term "calling" for the sake of non-D&D OOTS readers, who probably would not understand its meaning.|#826|01/10/2012

Game Balance Doesn't Matter in This Story"I was communicating the way I expected the audience would perceive it, then I began the process of abolishing that perception."|#806|09/20/2011

Armies and High level characters in D&D"The idea that you can walk into any tavern and 2-5 adventurers of high level will be there is literally a joke."|#919|09/18/2013[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Characters: Items and Stats
{colsp=3}
The Order of the Stick

Elan and Nale are TwinsSo Nale has the same Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution as Elan.|#65|05/03/2004

A Piece of StrawHaley used a piece of straw to get out of the jail cell. Info on Haley's Dexterity, Level, etc.|#262|01/03/2006

OOTS' StatsRich hasn't written them down, and everything is up in the air until they need a specific ability.|#714|04/10/2010

Elan's RapiersHe has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.|#723|05/13/2010

Haley's Boots of SpeedYes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.|#793|05/29/2011

Durkon's Mass Death WardRich did not even know Mass Death Ward existed when he wrote the strip. He pegged it at 7th level instead of 8th.|#806|09/19/2011

Durkon Throws Diamond DustDurkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.|#844|03/09/2012

Why V Doesn't Have a StaffThere is no narrative purpose for it, and it would just be one more item to keep track of in the art.|#878|03/03/2013

Vampire Durkon Can Cast SpellsA cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells.|#883|04/09/2013

{colsp=3}
Other Characters / Creatures

Acid-Born SharkRich created it, and made fun of himself in the comic.|#785|04/06/2011

Tsukiko Breaks The RulesTsukiko has too many schools. Rich doesn't make character decisions based on common player trends.|#800|08/14/2011

Malack's UndeadMalack reanimates the dead Draketooths into mummies.|#856|06/20/2012

Tarquin Doesn't Have Trap Sense"I don't usually bother making fun of mechanics anymore, but if I do, I'm not that subtle about it."|#858|07/23/2012

The Keoghtum's OintmentThe Keoghtum's Ointment removes deafness because it is extra strength.|#863|09/12/2012

Girard's Illusion RunesThey are a ninth-level spell, not an epic spell.|#893|06/11/2013

Malack's Grapple SkillsMalack's grapple skills were a hunting aid, not for optimization/combat. A character's skills have to be looked at in the context of their whole life, not "what I would do in a game."|#906|07/30/2013

Babies shouldn't be stattedThe inclusion of combat stats for newborns encourages combat with newborns, which shouldn't happen. See also Rich's proposed alternative "stats", here and here.|#922|10/04/2013
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Combat Scenes

Miko's FightHow Miko defeated the OOTS off-panel and captured them.|#251|11/30/2005

Zz'Ditri's Break EnchantmentRich didn't read the casting time while making the strip.|#800|09/07/2011

Roy's Arena Fight With ThogRoy's strategy to taunt a dungeon-crashing Thog into breaking the pillars.|#808|10/06/2011

Battle Scenes and D&D Tactics"My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you."|#873|02/28/2013

Malack and Mass Death WardWhy did Malack bother checking if Durkon protected himself when he could simply dispel the spell and not care at all?|#876|03/02/2013

Disintegrate is useful|#918|09/12/2013
[/table]



Note: for character stats and items, see the D&D rules section.

{table=head]{colsp=3}
General Information

Not everything needs a backstoryNot everything needs a backstory, or even has an interesting one worth telling.|#737|06/23/2010

More Prequels?The total number of planned prequel stories is "pretty much fixed."|#804|09/01/2011

Some Thoughts on Visuals and StoryPeople get invested in the story, not the art, of a comic.|#838|02/18/2012

Dragon ContinuityThe Dragon Magazine strips and Gygax magazine strips exist in a separate continuity from the OOTS strips.|#859|11/25/2012

[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Character Development and Backstory
{colsp=3}
The Order of the Stick

V's ChildrenThe Giant made them adopted to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian.|#882|04/09/2013

What Belkar SawWhat Belkar saw while affected by the dream runes.|#890|05/25/2013

V is a Vegetarian|#891|06/03/2013

The Dream RunesElan's victory as character development. Also, Nale was the only LG member affected by the runes.|#893|06/11/2013

{colsp=3}
Other Characters

Scrying in the DesertIt was Zz'ditri who scryed on the Order after they found Girard's illusion.|#870|02/18/2013

Kubota and HinjoWhy Kubota still wanted to kill Hinjo after the other nobles had given up.|#891|06/09/2013

The Azurite Nobles and HinjoThe nobles thought they could save their own skins from Xykon with Hinjo out of the way.|#891|06/06/2013

Malack is not Paranoid|#906|07/30/2013
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
The Gates and their History

About Girard's Double BluffAbout Girard's double bluff to protect the Gate.|#890|06/21/2013

Soon's CastleSoon built the castle, but did not build Azure City.|#804|09/01/2011

Soon's Gem and GateDetails about Soon's rift and how it is protected. The gate/rift could not be moved. You can shift a gate to another plane, but not another place on this plane.|#801|08/21/2011
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Familicide

FamilicideHow Familicide works.|#843|03/07/2012

Familicide IIMore on how Familicide works.|#894|06/19/2013[/table]


{table=head]{colsp=3}
Calendars, Dates, Maps
OOTS Age RangeIntended to be early to mid 20s. Durkon is the "dwarf equivalent" of this age range, in his 50s.|#732|07/02/2010

Chronology & TimelineAnything that states a numbered, dated year references the Northern calendar. The Oracle uses the Southern calendar. Further details on timeframe of Belkar's death prophecy included. Some time references in the strip (like the deva's chart) should not be taken too literally.|#725|05/26/2010

Map of the Western ContinentIt is constantly changing.|#746|09/12/2010[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Culture and Religion
Class Systems and CareersAlso, FYI, Durkon isn't "white."|#882|04/08/2013

Nergal and UndeathNergal is not against undeath. Malack just doesn't like using the undead as canon fodder.|#870|02/21/2013
Religions and Deities in OOTS WorldBackground details on who worships whom, and on Thor, Hel, and the Twelve Gods.|#848|04/11/2012[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Reading Too Much Into It
Malack's Chamber PlansThis was intended to use the imagery of factory farming, not the Holocaust. Malack plans to create a vampire ruling class.|#875|03/01/2013

Malack's Vampirism and LGBTMalack's condition is not an allegory for LGBT.|#875|03/01/2013

Orrin Draketooth's DaughterShe's not Haley.|#811|11/21/2011

Belkar's JokesBelkar making a joke about something does not make it so.|#786|04/11/2011

Current PoliticsThere are no references to current politics in the strip beyond those which readers invent themselves.|#732|07/02/2010

TV TropesRich is aware it exists. No, he doesn't use it for ideas or reference it in any way in the comic.|#705|03/04/2010

PratchettRich hasn't read Pratchett.|#687|10/26/2009

Hidden MeaningsNot everything in the comic has one.|#667|06/02/2009[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Storytelling Mistakes?
On Character Importance and Leadership SkillsThe Giant doesn't feel a character suffers for not having "leadership skills," and won't force someone's development just to give them said skills.|#882|04/07/2013

On Plots and Boredom"If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles, and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing."|#876|03/02/2013

True ResurrectionTrue Resurrection as a narrative-wrecking device, and an answer to the age-old "why didn't x character do y?" question.|#862|09/07/2012

A Missed Opportunity in 602?Why Hilgya was not the Cleric of Loki working for the Thieves' Guild.|#860|08/18/2012

The Gods Created Creatures After The World Was CreatedIs this a contradiction? No. There is no Gaia hypothesis in OOTS world.|#845|03/20/2012
No Purpose?"As a general rule of thumb, no one should say the sentence, 'There's no (or no other) possible narrative purpose for Rich to have done X!' until the story is completed. Because there's always a narrative purpose, you just haven't thought of what it is."|#826|01/10/2012
Surprises Are Not Deus Ex Machinas|#806|09/19/2011
Racism and Sex in OOTSRich answers two separate concerns: One, whether there is some correlation between skin color and promiscuity, and two, whether there is too much promiscuity among the women portrayed in the comic. The short answer to both is no.|#650|05/02/2009
Typo in 597?Nope. It is a joke.|#597|09/30/2008[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Plot Holes
Why Didn't Malack Prepare Word of Recall?Further explanation here and here (with a few remarks on plot holes in general).|#906|07/29/2013
Did Durkon Lie?No, the Giant forgot that Durkon said he didn't prepare "Detect Magic."|#894|06/19/2013
Why Didn't Girard Prepare a Better Trap Against Undead?"There is a big jump from knowing that illusions don't affect undead to being able to do anything about it--or expecting every defense to affect every possible creature type."|#893|06/11/2013
Why Destroy Tsukiko's Remains if Redcloak was just going to tell Xykon he killed her?One reason is so that Xykon would be unable to Speak With Dead on Tsukiko... or Raise Dead.|#866|01/26/2013
Giant's Response IIA character thinking one thing instead of another thing is not a mistake, it just is. The rift grew according to Redcloak's predictions, but he was measuring the actual hole, not the cracks.|#816|11/30/2011
Giant's Response IIncluding - why Haley was surprised that Miko was killed, info on Nale's self-delusion and ego, how the rift got so close to Xykon's Tower (it grew), and what is and isn't a plot hole.|#816|11/29/2011[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Writing Process and Story Development
Durkon Becomes a VampireOriginally, Durkon was going to become a vampire in the dungeon of Dorukan. This plot element has been developing for some time and even predates Xykon himself.|#906|07/28/2013
Characters as Plot DevicesBoth Redcloak and Malack had humble beginnings that developed into something more.|#906|07/28/2013
The Girard's Gate PlotlineTarquin and the LG are the main adversaries of this book; Team Evil was never going to battle the OOTS at Girard's Gate.|#906|07/28/2013
Nale's WandIts function in the story. Also, a brief side-note about why Xykon showed up at Girard's gate a few seconds too late.|#904|07/25/2013
On Writing Female CharactersThe difficulties and fan reactions.|#883|04/09/2013
LGBT CharactersWhy there aren't more in the comic. Also see this.|#882|04/08/2013
V's Gender HistoryWhy Rich made V's gender ambiguous and what discussions about it were like in the early days. Roy's 'V-man' comment is not necessarily indicative of V's true gender.|#793|05/29/2011
Dungeon of Dorukan HistoryOriginally, Dorukan was not even necessarily a person.|#196|06/20/2005
The Dwarven god Thor (http://web.archive.org/web/20070220022000/http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7283)OOTS Thor is not based off of D&D Thor. Until referenced in the comic, the Nordic legends/mythology does not exist in OOTSverse.|#86|07/12/2004[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Character Development/Backstory
Haley's LeadershipA greedy self-centered rogue becomes leader. Belkar and Haley are the only one's who questioned her leadership skills during the Azure City Resistance.|#882|04/07/2013
Durkon and Malack's BreakupDurkon reacts not only to Malack's vampirism, but to his alliance with the Linear Guild. He knows that Malack does not know Belkar isn't innocent.|#872|02/26/2013
Miko's PopularityMiko's story was not "cut short" because of fan opinions - it was precisely the length intended. Rich does not make storytelling decisions based on finances.|#863|12/18/2012
Parental ProblemsBackground info on the parents of various characters like Elan and Haley, including character/plot development history.|#815|11/18/2011
Miko and ShojoShojo was the "tape" that held Miko's character together for so long. He was responsible for much in Miko that was good/positive.|#815|11/18/2011
V's SplicesThere won't be a prequel book about them, and Rich hasn't developed a backstory for them. Just 3 evil souls.|#801|08/21/2011
Worldbuilding vs. Foreshadowing"Say hello to your boss for me."|#801|08/18/2011[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
Character Names
Azurite NamesWhy O-Chul isn't Oh Chul.|#879|03/10/2013
Tarquin's NameNamed after a Roman King, not the Grand Moff.|#749|10/11/2010
Malack's NameNot based off of Darth Malak. Originally was going to be named Malachi.|#749|10/10/2010[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}
The Story as a D&D Spoof
D&D Spoof Part IIMore on the comic's shift in focus from D&D gag-a-day jokes to a story that might appeal to a broader fanbase.|#831|01/29/2012
D&D SpoofThe Giant on the comic's shift in focus from D&D gag-a-day jokes to a story that might appeal to a broader fanbase.|#829|01/22/2012[/table]



{table=head]{colsp=3}
Supporting the Strip

How to financially support the GiantRich does not accept direct donations. Buying merchandise is preferred.|#918|09/14/2013

For Those Who Missed Out on Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive/posts/180096)The swag, sans patches, will be very likely available again at some point.|#870|02/24/2012

An OOTS "Munchkin" Board Game?No current plans for one.|#897|07/06/2013

An OOTS Computer Game?No current plans for one. See here for more.|#892|06/10/2013

eBooksYes, Rich has considered it. Digital PDF's are not in the works. Rich prefers to sell physical copy books.|#786|04/11/2011

Top WebcomicsDo not vote for OOTS on Top Webcomics.|#724|05/19/2010[/table]




{table=head]{colsp=3}
Prequels
The Rise of the Dark OneThe other gods lost their one shot to gang up on him and kill him. The Dark One has since been building his power.|#864|01/04/2013

How Xykon Broke OutHow Xykon broke out (with some insight into The Giant's writing process). On Xykon and Redcloak's escape from Lirian, see also this post.|#862|09/07/2012

Redcloak's Little SisterShe was not irredeemably evil, and certainly did not deserve execution.|#835|02/14/2012

The Crimson MantleGenerally it is not known by non-goblins that the mantle is the source of power.|#826|01/12/2012

SoD Paladins & Miko's FallOnly the crayon pages are narrative by Redcloak. Not every event is necessarily "seen." Certain scenes are largely shown from Redcloak's perspective. Details of why the paladins who killed Redcloak's people may or may not have fallen, why it doesn't matter, and how showing it would have cheapened the effect of Miko's fall later.|#706|03/15/2010

Right-Eye's FamilyThey weren't raised because Redcloak doesn't control Team Evil's finances to pay for resurrection, Xykon does. Evil characters are not discouraged / prohibited from raising the dead in OOTSverse.|#566|06/15/2008[/table]


{table=head]{colsp=3}
Reading Too Much Into It
Dragon Magazine Alternate PanelWhat didn't show up in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails.|#799|08/03/2011[/table]



{table=head]{colsp=3}
Kickstarter Bonus PDFs
Cornered For Donations"Nervous" and "Afraid" look pretty much the same, which helped with the misdirection at the start of Belkar's story.|#871|02/25/2013
Fire ThreatBelkar did not actually burn the town down on his first adventure.|#870|02/23/2012[/table]


I'm not bumped if you want to keep the old column ordering.

If you want I can also give you the Perl script, than you can rearrange it later if needed (with the assumption you don't change how you structure the post greatly, but since the table-code has pretty harsh structuring it is pretty simple to parse).

[ThePhantasm]

I'd love to take a look at the Perl script. Thanks --- the reordering looks better.

Do you (or anyone else) know if there is some way to insert padding or a margin around the text in the tables in bb code? I really hate how the text runs up against the column divider lines - I'd like there to be a little space there. I'm not very familiar with bb code or its abilities / limitations, but I've worked enough with HTML and CSS (on an amateur level) that I can figure stuff out fairly quickly if pointed in the right direction.

[ChristianSt]

I'd love to take a look at the Perl script. Thanks --- the reordering looks better.

Do you (or anyone else) know if there is some way to insert padding or a margin around the text in the tables in bb code? I really hate how the text runs up against the column divider lines - I'd like there to be a little space there. I'm not very familiar with bb code or its abilities / limitations, but I've worked enough with HTML and CSS (on an amateur level) that I can figure stuff out fairly quickly if pointed in the right direction.

I would love to point you to some bb code stuff, but I'm a) not that familiar with it either, and b) I think each forum has its own bb-code subset it uses.
So things which work in one forum doesn't necessarily work in another (for example most forums uses another table structure using additional tags for table rows/columns, not "|" and "\n" (newline) which I would find quite easier to structure, but doesn't work here)

I will PM you the script soonish.

[Jasdoif]

Another thing: I personally would find another column order to be better readable, since the most important thing (imo the content of the quote) should be left and the least important (imo the date) should be right.Now, I thought the tables looked ugly with the tiny date and comic columns on the right-hand side, it looked like the giant text column was trying to bleed into the navigational area...which is why I put the small columns on the left when I did the table conversion.

[RMS Oceanic]

I may be blind and missing this, but there were a couple of Giant comments that confirmed that there would be two more books in the main story after the current (Elan v Tarquin) one, regardless of how long they turned out to be. Was a decision ever taken to include them or not?

[zimmerwald1915]

I may be blind and missing this, but there were a couple of Giant comments that confirmed that there would be two more books in the main story after the current (Elan v Tarquin) one, regardless of how long they turned out to be. Was a decision ever taken to include them or not?
The gist of that seems covered in the Geekademia interview question labeled 5J. Is that not sufficient?

[Flame of Anor]

Title fixed.

So, um, what happened to the vote?

Also, could you put a link to the old thread in the first post?

[ThePhantasm]

So, um, what happened to the vote?

In the last thread? None of the quotes were voted to be removed from the index.

[rodneyAnonymous]

So, um, what happened to the vote?

Vetoed I think :)

[ThePhantasm]

Oh, now I see what you are referring to.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Oh, now I see what you are referring to.

Yeah he meant the thread title, I think.

[Emanick]

After all, a "vote" is nothing more than a "veto" with a couple of letters switched around. :smallwink:

[Kish]

So, um, what happened to the vote?
What vote? There was no vote, just a whole lot of people spamming the last thread with uninvited thread name suggestions. (Myself included.)

[RNGgod]

Yeah, as the person who first suggested the Zz'dtri title, I gotta say, I'm glad we have a different title.

[ChristianSt]

Also, could you put a link to the old thread in the first post?ThePhantasm is already aware of it:
Yeah, I need to add an "update history" section that I just haven't gotten to yet... I'll probably add it later this evening (I'm thinking it will feature the latest quotes, etc. so it will be a bit more involved than the last one). It'll have a link to the old thread.



I may be blind and missing this, but there were a couple of Giant comments that confirmed that there would be two more books in the main story after the current (Elan v Tarquin) one, regardless of how long they turned out to be. Was a decision ever taken to include them or not?
Here you go (and yeah, I think it should be included - the Geekademia Interview can be used to deduce that there are seven books, but it isn't really easy to link to):

Yeah, it'll be seven, even if the last one looks like a phone book.


{table]There will be seven books|#800|08/15/2013
#800|08/15/2013|There will be seven books[/table]
Maybe it would be better to put a "main comic" or so somewhere, because the total number of books (prequel etc.) is not specified)

[Ron Miel]

Why the whip was glowing in #929
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313797&page=2

[orrion]

Why the whip was glowing in #929
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313797&page=2

Honestly, that's fairly obvious information. It's glowing with Laurin's magical color and she's been using magic quite regularly in the past several comics.

[JustWantedToSay]

Why the whip was glowing in #929
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313797&page=2

Link to post:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16395353&postcount=43

[Ron Miel]

Honestly, that's fairly obvious information.

Not to the two people that asked.

[ThePhantasm]

Generally, if it can be proven from the strip itself without the Giant's clarification, I don't think the quote needs to be included. In this case numerous people were able to give the right answer before the Giant came along and also gave that same answer.

[DaggerPen]

I also don't think it's particularly necessary to include. I doubt we're really going to get questions on it outside the discussion thread for this strip, unlike the Scrying Orb That Will Not Die.

[RMS Oceanic]

Yeah, it's something that can easily be explained without relying on Rich's word, so I don't think we need to include it.

[orrion]

Not to the two people that asked.

If only two people asked then I would indeed categorize it as fairly obvious.

[b_jonas]

I would also like to thank the people who transcribed that interview. The interview contains some very interesting new information for me. Especially this is very revealing:


... stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, essentially, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order, so they get their personal problems taken care of before the final battle.

[Blisstake]

Awesome, this makes cyber stalking so much easier. :smalltongue:

[RMS Oceanic]

On the subject of realistic injuries versus the game system: Everybody has a different idea of what should take precedent. Ideally we should just roll with it.

[Jasdoif]

On the subject of realistic injuries versus the game system: Everybody has a different idea of what should take precedent. Ideally we should just roll with it.I like this quote better for the general case of the second paragraph, personally.

(Also: 11/13/2013; #929)

EDIT: ....OK, I see comic #930 just went up; but I still have a window with the quoted post open and it says #929 was the newest comic.

[Vargtass]

That quote by the Giant that he didn't use Monkey Island as inspiration for pun duelling... It is needed in the main thread (930)!

Anyone know where it went?

[Jasdoif]

That quote by the Giant that he didn't use Monkey Island as inspiration for pun duelling... It is needed in the main thread (930)!

Anyone know where it went?Hmm. Wasn't that in one of the book commentaries? War and XPs, I think it'd be, around the time Elan was montaging for his prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0391.html)? Afraid I don't have access to my books right now to check.

[ti'esar]

Hmm. Wasn't that in one of the book commentaries? War and XPs, I think it'd be, around the time Elan was montaging for his prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0391.html)? Afraid I don't have access to my books right now to check.

It's not in WaXP.

[ThePhantasm]

That quote by the Giant that he didn't use Monkey Island as inspiration for pun duelling... It is needed in the main thread (930)!

Anyone know where it went?

I don't think it is in the index.

[Porthos]

I don't think it is in the index.

It might have been caught in a thread purge. The time frame is right (2007) for it to no longer be here. I'd have to do a deeper dive into Google than I've already done to make sure though.


ETA::: Yeah, I'm thinking Thread Purge, if the date of this post is at all accurate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2223315&postcount=3):


I still can't believe Rich never played Monkey Island.
This is a good feat for a less serious campaign. I'd probably allow it.

Early 2007 is right around the cutoff for a lot of threads. I'll keep looking though. Maybe I'll get lucky and strike gold in the Wayback Machine.

ETA x 2::::

Ah. Might be in luck! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43122) :smallcool:



I've gotten a bunch of emails praising me for recent references to Monkey Island. Which would be great, except that I've never heard of anything called "Monkey Island" and I'm certainly not referencing it with this plotline. Sorry. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
This was on the frontpage around christmas. I'm just wondering, what exactly ARE the Monkey Island references? I certainly can't find any.

*checks News Page*

FOUND IT! :smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool:



12/20/2006

Just a quick note to say that there will not be an Order of the Stick comic for Monday, December 25th, because of Christmas.

Also, I've gotten a bunch of emails praising me for recent references to Monkey Island. Which would be great, except that I've never heard of anything called "Monkey Island" and I'm certainly not referencing it with this plotline. Sorry. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

It's currently sitting on Page Five (http://www.giantitp.com/index4.html). Don't think there is an easy way to direct link it though.

[Yendor]

That quote by the Giant that he didn't use Monkey Island as inspiration for pun duelling... It is needed in the main thread (930)!

Anyone know where it went?

Think it's on the News page somewhere.

Since it apparently got lost amongst all the confusion: the post about the Kickstarter swag should be amended to reflect that said swag is now available (http://www.ookoodook.com/store/OOTSKSSwag.shtml).

[Porthos]

Think it's on the News page somewhere.


Yes it is. I just edited in the info into my last post. :smallsmile:

[NerdyKris]

Why the whip was glowing in #929
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313797&page=2

So I think we can definitely not include this, since it's clear in the next strip that she's holding it with telekinesis.

[Muenster Man]

"Stories don't have to work the way you think they do, and are often better when they don't." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16419300&postcount=559)

This is part of a string of good comments by the Giant in the current discussion thread, but I think this one sums it up pretty well.

[NerdyKris]

I think that's the best one of the bunch, because it pretty much hammers home the point that Elan's plan wasn't just "Get Julio Scoundrel". It was "Defeat Tarquin in a manner that defies narrative convention by having the main characters play a supporting role."

I didn't even catch it until I saw that exchange.

[DaggerPen]

... uh, wasn't Rich's "I WENT TO ART SCHOOL, OKAY?" quote in here at one point? I am in need of it and I cannot find it anywhere, and googling it isn't helping. Did we remove it? Is it not under the Art section?

[Jasdoif]

... uh, wasn't Rich's "I WENT TO ART SCHOOL, OKAY?" quote in here at one point? I am in need of it and I cannot find it anywhere, and googling it isn't helping. Did we remove it? Is it not under the Art section?I found it:
I love how it never crosses anyone's mind that the author may know less about astronomy than they do.

I WENT TO ART SCHOOL, OK?

EDIT: And no, I don't think it was ever in the Index; I didn't see it in the original Index thread, and the post itself predates that thread by over a year.

[DaggerPen]

Aha! Thank you.

[Toper]

Funny, I just needed that quote myself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16416432&postcount=162). I don't know that it's relevant enough to include here, but it is funny!

[DaggerPen]

I personally vote for its inclusion, just because it is referenced so much. I can see arguments against including it, though.

[NerdyKris]

I personally vote for its inclusion, just because it is referenced so much. I can see arguments against including it, though.

I don't think it needs to be included. It was a funny response to the post. But as a separate quote taken out of context, being referenced every time there's a mistake, it sounds more like we're saying "He only went to art school!", implying he's somehow not smart enough to know something, instead of just not having ever studied it.

If we want to point out that he has an art degree, we can use other quotes, but I don't see how it's relevant to anything. The type of person do dismiss the artwork because it's a stick figure comic isn't coming into this forum to read the quotes. (Or any artwork based on what education the artist has, for that matter)

[Debatra]

Maybe label it something like "On Scientific, Etc. Errors in OOTS"?

That said, is there a better quote we could use for the same point?

[Emanick]

If we really don't have any other quotes in which Rich mentions that he went to art school (and I'm pretty sure we do), include it. Otherwise, I can't see the point. Its contents don't really have any application outside of the thread it occurred in.

[NerdyKris]

Maybe label it something like "On Scientific, Etc. Errors in OOTS"?

That said, is there a better quote we could use for the same point?

I don't like anything that implies his degree is the reason for an error. It basically says his degree is worth less than a "real" degree, despite being directly related to his profession. If we want to include "Rich has an art degree" somewhere, that's fine. But trying to use it as an excuse for something seems to be in bad taste to me.

He makes the error because he didn't know that subject. I, for instance, have a computer science degree. And I know a lot about astronomy. That's not because of my degree at all. It's because I studied it on my own free time. Your degree isn't the reason you doesn't know something. It's only the reason you do know something.

[Debatra]

I don't like anything that implies his degree is the reason for an error. It basically says his degree is worth less than a "real" degree, despite being directly related to his profession. If we want to include "Rich has an art degree" somewhere, that's fine. But trying to use it as an excuse for something seems to be in bad taste to me.

He makes the error because he didn't know that subject. I, for instance, have a computer science degree. And I know a lot about astronomy. That's not because of my degree at all. It's because I studied it on my own free time. Your degree isn't the reason you doesn't know something. It's only the reason you do know something.

I was more focussed on the part where he mentions people assuming he knows more than he actually does. I understand the art school implication, but feel that anyone who isn't a troll looking for 'rich iz dum cuz of this' fodder will understand the intent.

[NerdyKris]

My point is that one's degree doesn't tell you anything about what a person doesn't know. Even if their degree is "Super awesome knower of all", it's a meaningless response to the question "Why don't they know this?".

I don't know anything about cars except basic maintenance. My degree being in computer science doesn't tell you that. It just tells you that I know how to program. Similarly, the fact that he has an art degree doesn't tell you that he doesn't know astronomy. It only tells you that he knows a lot about art.

[Flame of Anor]

I don't like anything that implies his degree is the reason for an error.

The Giant himself said that his degree was the reason for the error. You think you know better?


It basically says his degree is worth less than a "real" degree, despite being directly related to his profession.

It says nothing of the kind. It says that he knows more art and less astronomy. That's only "worth less" if astronomy is better than art, which you are the one implying.

[The Recreator]

I get the sense that if Mr. Burlew is reading this thread, he must be headdesking. The quote in question is a flippant response to an overanalytical train of thought, and us taking the quote and in turn overanalyzing it seems to perpetuate the Ouroboros of self-indulgence.

That said, I'd include the quote, but it probably doesn't meet thread regulations. It's popular, brief, and it gets the point across (Burlew's not an omnidisciplinary maverick and won't be dropping hints that rely on uncommon understandings of certain sciences). However, the already-indexed "cigars are sometimes just cigars" quote also serves this point.

[DaggerPen]

Yeah, I basically only want it in there because a lot of us make joking references to it and it's a handy place for it. It's not really a big academic thing, and I understand that it's probably not up to the thread's standards, I just figured I'd give it a whirl because I always have trouble turning it up when need be.

[137beth]

The Giant himself said that his degree was the reason for the error. You think you know better?

Well, I don't have a degree in determining what someone's degree says about what they don't know, so I can't know any better, can I?

[NerdyKris]

The Giant himself said that his degree was the reason for the error. You think you know better?



It says nothing of the kind. It says that he knows more art and less astronomy. That's only "worth less" if astronomy is better than art, which you are the one implying.

My point is that it is literally just a response, and a joke, to that one thread. A topic that has never resurfaced. By including it in the index, it will be applied to other things, yet it doesn't tell us anything about what he knows, other than "The Giant doesn't know anything about astronomy". The suggestion to include it as a generic "scientific knowledge" topic is what instigated my statements.

[b_jonas]

Do we have confirmation or denial by the Giant that https://twitter.com/RichBurlew is his twitter account? If so, could this thread link to it?

Update: thank you for the reply, Bird.

[Bird]

We do have confirmation that it's him. He posted this on the giantitp newsfeed previously:

3/15/2012

I've gone ahead and signed up for a Twitter account despite having resisted it for so long (@RichBurlew).

[martianmister]

Laurin used "I Could Read Every Psionic Book for the Right Power, or I Could Make It Up and Call It a Day" in stip 928. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/400740323233505280)

[ThePhantasm]

Do we have confirmation or denial by the Giant that https://twitter.com/RichBurlew is his twitter account? If so, could this thread link to it?

Update: thank you for the reply, Bird.

This thread can also link to specific tweets if any are deemed worthy of inclusion.

[pearl jam]

Ha!

Not really needed for the index, but I thought this was a funny tweet as I was scrolling through...

http://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/387919953677926400

"I just drew a halfling riding a dinosaur, accidentally proving that Eberron was cooler after all. Well played, @HellcowKeith, well played."

:biggrin:


A fairly cursory glance leads me to believe that it's unlikely that we will find many tweets to link. Although there are a few replies to questions, most of the tweets are simply announcements of new comics posted.

[GrayGriffin]

The Giant acknowledges the problematic nature of Haley's early-strip slut-shaming comments. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16450188&postcount=93)

[Flame of Anor]

The Giant acknowledges the problematic nature of Haley's early-strip slut-shaming comments. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16450188&postcount=93)

And gives Laurin's age.

[Throknor]

A point-by-point rebuttal of cries of 'Deus Ex Machina! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16453020&postcount=118)'.

[Vemynal]

I think we should include it since the Giant literally gave us providing a link to that as his reason to type that out

[RMS Oceanic]

I think we should include it since the Giant literally gave us providing a link to that as his reason to type that out

Absolutely. Also this is a point that will probably be discussed repeatedly for a while.

[NerdyKris]

Agreed for both of those. The slut shaming one and the Deus Ex Machina one.

[ChristianSt]

While searching for a quote (wasn't there something about the silent spell feat isn't required if it makes the scene works better?) I found Surprises Are Not Deus Ex Machinas.
So maybe we should merge this with the new one or replace it.

[Porthos]

While searching for a quote (wasn't there something about the silent spell feat isn't required if it makes the scene works better?) I found Surprises Are Not Deus Ex Machinas.
So maybe we should merge this with the new one or replace it.

I think they should both be in there. One as a general statement of prinicple when it comes to what to expect from the comic, and the other one as a specific refutation of a particular scene.

[ThePhantasm]

Probably I will call it something like "Surprises are not Deus Ex Machinas, II." Similar to how there are two Familicide entries.

[Flame of Anor]

Probably I will call it something like "Surprises are not Deus Ex Machinas, II." Similar to how there are two Familicide entries.

Sounds good.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Stuff on why the Giant has been taking a more moral stance, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16453175&postcount=152) how he thought V familiciding all the black dragons was obviously evil from the get-go, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16451978&postcount=131) and that the Empress of Blood is fat because she's stupid and being fooled by Tarquin. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16452643&postcount=145)

[Sir_Leorik]

Probably I will call it something like "Surprises are not Deus Ex Machinas, II." Similar to how there are two Familicide entries.

That sounds good to me.

[oppyu]

The Empress of Blood is an adult red dragon who can't cast spells (probably due to low CHA), abnormally stupid, and Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16465233&postcount=298).

[RNGgod]

Not sure if important enough, but Belkar's concerns about 'Bloodfeast' were part of his character development, not an effort to make V look bad, and anyway, Belkar may not have been correct in suggesting that Tarquin would punish the dinosaur. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16465886&postcount=190)

[orrion]

Not sure if important enough, but Belkar's concerns about 'Bloodfeast' were part of his character development, not an effort to make V look bad, and anyway, Belkar may not have been correct in suggesting that Tarquin would punish the dinosaur. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16465886&postcount=190)

I don't think that one needs to be included because the most obvious reading of the comic is NOT "Oh, V is being a jackass."

[RNGgod]

I don't think that one needs to be included because the most obvious reading of the comic is NOT "Oh, V is being a jackass."

Normally, I would agree with you, however, we are currently 12 pages into a thread that largely consists of such an argument.


Of course, it is quite possible that there is no need to include quotes that only serve to counter Zimmerwald. Did we include the quotes from 919 where Zim and Rich were arguing about V's willingness to confess? If not, then sure, let's not include this one.

[Porthos]

I don't think that one needs to be included because the most obvious reading of the comic is NOT "Oh, V is being a jackass."

It is possibly interesting though in regards to Belkar's character growth. That's the only reason I'd include it, at least. Or just from a storytelling development viewpoint (this is why I have X character do something as opposed to Y character do it).

[Emanick]

It is possibly interesting though in regards to Belkar's character growth. That's the only reason I'd include it, at least.

Yeah, this was my initial reaction. I was halfway through typing a post that said "YES, let's definitely include it for that reason" before I realized that I might be the only one who actually thinks this.

[rodneyAnonymous]

If 100% of the information that makes the comment potentially worth including on this index is "the point of that particular scene was to show that Belkar cared", no, I don't think that's worthwhile.

[Kish]

Yeah, I'd say not to include it. Belkar's concern for Bloodfeast is really pretty obvious; we don't need comments that say, in essence, just "This is what it appears to be."

[CoffeeIncluded]

I dunno, considering the virulent venom some people have towards V, and the viciousness of the views they vouch, it might be necessary.

[Gift Jeraff]

I verily and vehemently despise V yet viewed it as very obvious.

[Scow2]

I verily and vehemently despise V yet viewed it as very obvious.You don't verily and vehemently despise V as much as a certain other forum member here.

[zimmerwald1915]

You don't verily and vehemently despise V as much as a certain other forum member here.
That particular forum member is quite capable of remembering how he got verbally smacked down by the Giant. The question is whether the quote serves some other purpose.

[Kish]

That particular forum member is quite capable of remembering how he got verbally smacked down by the Giant. The question is whether the quote serves some other purpose.
If someone finds a Giant quote stating, "zimmerwald1915 dislikes Vaarsuvius," I pre-emptively vote against including it.

[Fish]

I would argue that its inclusion answers the broader question, "When a character does X, does that imply that the other characters would not have done it?" People often draw inferences based upon non-action (oh no, Haley didn't do ABC!) when the point is the person who did.

Roy didn't remember Durkon when they left him behind! Roy hates Durkon! Or whatever.

[Throknor]

If someone finds a Giant quote stating, "zimmerwald1915 dislikes Vaarsuvius," I pre-emptively vote against including it.
Pretty sure I've seen that before, but I don't have time to search right now. I think it was right after V returned and Roy cut off his explanation; z got apoplectic about V not ignoring Roy and the fight and spilling everything right then.

But on topic, I don't think it needs included. Anyone reading straight through would figure it out. Personally I'm expecting a scene where Roy wants to know why they saved a dinosaur that they'll now have to feed - if they restore it. Even if not exactly that, I expect at least one character in comic will comment on it rendering the clarification moot.

[Sir_Leorik]

Not sure if important enough, but Belkar's concerns about 'Bloodfeast' were part of his character development, not an effort to make V look bad, and anyway, Belkar may not have been correct in suggesting that Tarquin would punish the dinosaur. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16465886&postcount=190)

I vote to include it, but to have the entry in the Index limited to: "Belkar's concern for "Bloodfeast" is a sign of his continuing character development."

[Flame of Anor]

I vote to include it, but to have the entry in the Index limited to: "Belkar's concern for "Bloodfeast" is a sign of his continuing character development."

Seconded..

[DaggerPen]

The bride-to-bes Julio rescued from Tarquin are not counted as his 9 wives, some of Tarquin's wives married him willingly, including Penelope, and (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16471412&postcount=13)

(Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales spoilers)

Virginia was one of Tarquin's 'fiancees' before Julio rescued her.

[Shale]

That's pretty neat.

Can you make that spoiler a separate link from the rest of the text, though? When I click the "spoiler" button it opens the Giant's post.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[DaggerPen]

That's pretty neat.

Can you make that spoiler a separate link from the rest of the text, though? When I click the "spoiler" button it opens the Giant's post.

Yeah, just fixed it. Really wasn't expecting it to mess with the spoiler button - I just truncated the linked portion before the spoiler tag.

[The Recreator]

Probably I will call it something like "Surprises are not Deus Ex Machinas, II." Similar to how there are two Familicide entries.

Since the link is a point-by-point refutation of a specific claim of "Deus Ex Mechane Machina", I think it would be useful to make mention of that in the link text.

[137beth]

I would argue that its inclusion answers the broader question, "When a character does X, does that imply that the other characters would not have done it?" People often draw inferences based upon non-action (oh no, Haley didn't do ABC!) when the point is the person who did.

Roy didn't remember Durkon when they left him behind! Roy hates Durkon! Or whatever.

This is my thought as well. Many forumites (not just those who specifically hate V) frequently over-interpret inaction. Case and point: how many threads/posts have we had recently about how Durkon suddenly doesn't care about the rest of the group, purely because he hasn't made as many actions as the others? This quote addresses such comments.

[Bovine Colonel]

The reordering script tends to mess up the subheadings in the tables that have them, like the Characters: Items and Stats table.

[ChristianSt]

The reordering script tends to mess up the subheadings in the tables that have them, like the Characters: Items and Stats table.

I can't really follow what you mean. If you mean the script I used the to permute the columns, I can't find any messed up subheadings [also I didn't post that script here, so the statement "tends to mess up" seems strange].

The only other thing I think you could mean is the "sort function" the table has (provided by clicking on the table head). It is automatically added (by the forum software) to any table head and simply sorts the column rows alphabetically by first column (at least as far as I can tell, which is kinda useless most of the times). I don't know if it is even possible to change that behaviour (or perhaps disable it). And I personally wouldn't try to figure it out, I would just offer the advice: do not click on the table head.

If you mean something else: please elaborate, I have no clue what you are talking about.

[Bovine Colonel]

I can't really follow what you mean. If you mean the script I used the to permute the columns, I can't find any messed up subheadings [also I didn't post that script here, so the statement "tends to mess up" seems strange].

The only other thing I think you could mean is the "sort function" the table has (provided by clicking on the table head). It is automatically added (by the forum software) to any table head and simply sorts the column rows alphabetically by first column (at least as far as I can tell, which is kinda useless most of the times). I don't know if it is even possible to change that behaviour (or perhaps disable it). And I personally wouldn't try to figure it out, I would just offer the advice: do not click on the table head.

If you mean something else: please elaborate, I have no clue what you are talking about.

...Crappity crap. My bad. Sorry.

*goes to learn basic reading comprehension*

[Mighty_Chicken]

I don't like Rule B. I remember The Giant having pretty good and deep comments about the comic book industry, for example, that are completely unrelated to his own comic.

Just make a "miscelanea" section instead of forbidding it entirely. My 2 cents.

[oppyu]

I don't like Rule B. I remember The Giant having pretty good and deep comments about the comic book industry, for example, that are completely unrelated to his own comic.

Just make a "miscelanea" section instead of forbidding it entirely. My 2 cents.
Unfortunately it seems that the Giant is a wee bit creeped out by the prospect of having every comment he makes on any medium, on any topic, logged into a thread for people to peruse and bicker over for all time. Out of token acknowledgement that the Giant is a human being and not a soulless entity that exists purely to create comics and entertain us, the thread tries to limit itself to comments on a certain subject matter.

(EDIT: I'm not suggesting that you consider the Giant to be a soulless entity who exists purely to produce content, I just found that sentence entertaining to write.)

[ChristianSt]

I don't like Rule B. I remember The Giant having pretty good and deep comments about the comic book industry, for example, that are completely unrelated to his own comic.

Just make a "miscelanea" section instead of forbidding it entirely. My 2 cents.

Other than that what oppyu said to elaborate this, we have a post from the Giant that says so:

OK, I think I’m going to have to chime in here.

I am fully in support of this project to document stuff I’ve said about OOTS so that people can stop arguing about it, but there has to be a line drawn. And I think that line is when I’m talking about other topics on other parts of this message board. Because otherwise, it’s like following me around with a tape recorder and everything I say about any topic becomes “on the record.” And that’s just creepy.

When I responded to that thread, I did so because I wanted to talk about that subject, not OOTS. But even as I did, a voice in the back of my head said, “They’ll probably link this for some reason in the index.” And here we are. Which means that ultimately, I can’t hold a casual conversation on the message board that I own—I can only make pronouncements that will be relinked and analyzed by the whole community. The end result of that will be me not talking about anything, because that makes me uncomfortable. So if your interest is in reading my thoughts on the creative process, linking them here is a surefire way to guarantee I never share such thoughts again.

If you want to follow everything I say about every topic because you like to read every word I write, I would ask that you do so under your own initiative. Please don’t just link here to every post I make. If it’s not about OOTS and/or it’s not in the OOTS board, I'd ask that it not be in the index.

I personally would even add an explicit point to the rule that NO post(s) from sub-forums other than "The Order of the Stick" should be posted/linked here unless they are explicitly are about OotS.
And maybe adding a link to this quote somewhere there too.

[Mighty_Chicken]

Ok, but I see no reason why this post by the Giant shouldn't be in the index.

[ThePhantasm]

Which post?

[Spoomeister]

For what it's worth, if people were (like me) using the trick of a google search that looked for "the drive is over", or similar, to peek in from time to time for Giant posts... yeah, looks like he isn't using that signature consistently anymore.
Noticed him jump in on a thread I was watching just today and it wasn't there.

Back to relying on the (really great!) work done by this thread to more methodically hand-pick what is indexed, in order for me to find out the Giant's $.02 on OOTS...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For what it's worth, if people were (like me) using the trick of a google search that looked for "the drive is over", or similar, to peek in from time to time for Giant posts... yeah, looks like he isn't using that signature consistently anymore.
Noticed him jump in on a thread I was watching just today and it wasn't there.


Really? That's... weird. I mean, yes, you can post without the signature (behold!) but it takes an active click. Was it an OotS thread?

Grey Wolf

[Flame of Anor]

Which post?

No post. I believe it was an attempt at humor at the expense of those who might wish to make exceptions to the rule.

[Porthos]

For what it's worth, if people were (like me) using the trick of a google search that looked for "the drive is over", or similar, to peek in from time to time for Giant posts... yeah, looks like he isn't using that signature consistently anymore.
Noticed him jump in on a thread I was watching just today and it wasn't there.

Back to relying on the (really great!) work done by this thread to more methodically hand-pick what is indexed, in order for me to find out the Giant's $.02 on OOTS...

*checks*

It's still there. I think he might have changed his sig slightly (I think it is slightly different than before) and maybe you just happened to catch a post whilst he was updating it.

[Yendor]

*checks*

It's still there. I think he might have changed his sig slightly (I think it is slightly different than before) and maybe you just happened to catch a post whilst he was updating it.

I don't think it's changed. But I have just noticed the superfluous "the".

[ThePhantasm]

He changed his sig to announce the new ornaments, t-shirts, etc. Not a big deal, I'll fix the Google Search link in the next update (which I'll be getting to soon).

[RMS Oceanic]

Would his comment that the Calendar will include the name of Book 5 count for inclusion, even on a temporary timeframe?

[ThePhantasm]

Maybe there should be a special section for quotes of temporary significance? We've had a couple of those quotes come and go. Once they become irrelevant or redundant I could just remove them from the temporary section, so we wouldn't need to vote on each one to be removed.

[Emanick]

Maybe there should be a special section for quotes of temporary significance? We've had a couple of those quotes come and go. Once they become irrelevant or redundant I could just remove them from the temporary section, so we wouldn't need to vote on each one to be removed.

This is a really good idea. Maybe put them near the top of the thread?

[ChristianSt]

If you want to manage a temporal addition list, sure, I would think it is a nice addition.

Another candidate for said list would be some of the Kickstarter announcement stuff. From top of my head from time to time the question about the Kickstarter cameo reward pops up. I don't have a quote ready, but I'm pretty sure the Giant commented on it being unmissable and probably even news-worthy. (I will try to support a link if no one can find it, but right now I don't have the time to search)

[Sir_Leorik]

Maybe there should be a special section for quotes of temporary significance? We've had a couple of those quotes come and go. Once they become irrelevant or redundant I could just remove them from the temporary section, so we wouldn't need to vote on each one to be removed.

I think this is a good idea.

[Dr. Gamera]

It seems as if the Google query should be updated to:
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.giantitp.com%2Ffo rums%2F+%22Also%2C+holiday+ornament+and+t-shirts+from+CafePress%22&tbs=qdr:y%2Csbd%3A1

[Shale]

Looks like we may need both. That query is only returning posts since he changed his sig.

[KillianHawkeye]

Looks like we may need both. That query is only returning posts since he changed his sig.

Well, that's unfortunate.

[RMS Oceanic]

Information about the difference between Ookoodook and Cafepress, and Information about Book Five.

[Hogwarts9876]

I was browsing old threads and found something interesting that we may not have: the comic's stick figures began as miniatures. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1186915&postcount=26)

[ti'esar]

I was browsing old threads and found something interesting that we may not have: the comic's stick figures began as miniatures. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1186915&postcount=26)

That's too vague to add, I think.

[MesiDoomstalker]

But fun that he actually did make the mini-standin's for us!

[Bird]

That's too vague to add, I think.
I don't see why...? Before there was OotS the comic, the stick figures were cheap miniature substitutes. Seems like an important bit of OotS prehistory to me.

[The Linker]

There was, at one point, a very detailed written backstory on how it all started as a bunch of miniatures. Where was that? Was that part of the commentary of one of the books, or something?

[sam79]

Where was that? Was that part of the commentary of one of the books, or something?

I think it was in the commentary pages of 'Dungeon Crawlin' Fools'. Which would make sense, I guess.

[Sniffnoy]

People in OOTS literally die of old age. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16564021&postcount=34)

[NerdyKris]

Definitely add that, since to someone who doesn't play D&D, resurrection makes dying of old age confusing. Good to have it spelled out what OOTS uses, rather than trying to guesstimate what constitutes no res and what doesn't.

[orrion]

Definitely add that, since to someone who doesn't play D&D, resurrection makes dying of old age confusing. Good to have it spelled out what OOTS uses, rather than trying to guesstimate what constitutes no res and what doesn't.

I don't know about that. I've never played D&D and I had no trouble with the concept.

There's no real reason to suppose everyone in the world is effectively immortal if they have access to resurrection.

[Nightsbridge]

I don't know about that. I've never played D&D and I had no trouble with the concept.

There's no real reason to suppose everyone in the world is effectively immortal if they have access to resurrection.

Sure there is. Is Resurrection can reverse the cause of death and render it a non-issue, then by that logic even old age as we know it should be curable by it. There are some context clues in the comic that hints that it happens without reference to how or why, but there could be no harm in adding it to the quotes.

Plus, it's kind of neat information to have.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sure there is. Is Resurrection can reverse the cause of death and render it a non-issue, then by that logic even old age as we know it should be curable by it. There are some context clues in the comic that hints that it happens without reference to how or why, but there could be no harm in adding it to the quotes.

Plus, it's kind of neat information to have.

The counter to this is that Rich is not explaining something exclusively about OotS. He is just clarifying D&D rules that already exist (and that Kish, I should add, had already quoted correctly, but the poster who kept insisting that real life rules about sickness and death should apply to D&D worlds simply ignored).

We don't need an entry of the Giant explaining that resurrection doesn't cure death by old age. The same can be accomplished by linking to the relevant D20 page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm).

Grey Wolf

[NerdyKris]

The biggest issue I see is that "old age" isn't a cause of death in the real world. Organ failure is what causes it. Your heart stops beating, or you have a seizure, or something else just quits out on you. There's no set lifespan in real life. You could theoretically live hundreds of years hooked up to a machine. (but it would be expensive and painful)

By the standards of a fantasy universe, there's no practical difference between organ failure and that organ being, say, stabbed. So there has to be a reason why a regeneration spell doesn't just replace the failed organ and bam, they're back up and running. So the quote is a word of the author what prevents such a tactic from working. Especially since we've had several threads lately pointing out characters who have apparently died young (50-60ish) and not been raised (Hinjo's mother and Roy's mother) while Eugene was shown to have been raised multiple times.

[Emanick]

The counter to this is that Rich is not explaining something exclusively about OotS. He is just clarifying D&D rules that already exist (and that Kish, I should add, had already quoted correctly, but the poster who kept insisting that real life rules about sickness and death should apply to D&D worlds simply ignored).

We don't need an entry of the Giant explaining that resurrection doesn't cure death by old age. The same can be accomplished by linking to the relevant D20 page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm).

Grey Wolf

This quote isn't significant because of an explanation that resurrection doesn't cure death by old age. It's significant because it states that death by old age is a literal thing, and that people in OOTSverse die of old age on their birthday. That isn't remotely obvious; I thought that the very idea was ridiculous before The Giant stepped in with this post.

[orrion]

Sure there is. Is Resurrection can reverse the cause of death and render it a non-issue, then by that logic even old age as we know it should be curable by it. There are some context clues in the comic that hints that it happens without reference to how or why, but there could be no harm in adding it to the quotes.

Plus, it's kind of neat information to have.

Resurrection restores you to your previous state, before whatever killed you occurred. So if you resurrected someone who died of old age they would just immediately die of old age again.


This quote isn't significant because of an explanation that resurrection doesn't cure death by old age. It's significant because it states that death by old age is a literal thing, and that people in OOTSverse die of old age on their birthday. That isn't remotely obvious; I thought that the very idea was ridiculous before The Giant stepped in with this post.

To me it's quite obvious that people die of old age.

Not everyone is an adventurer, so something has to kill off the common people eventually.

Are you suggesting that everyone in a dnd setting contracts deadly diseases at some point, or that there are groups of people running around just slaughtering everyone to make way for new generations? Or do you think that everyone is just immortal? Can you explain to me how these scenarios - or whatever scenario you came up with to explain how people die - are somehow less ridiculous than the idea of dying of old age?

[The Linker]

To me it's quite obvious that people die of old age.

Not everyone is an adventurer, so something has to kill off the common people eventually.

Are you suggesting that everyone in a dnd setting contracts deadly diseases at some point, or that there are groups of people running around just slaughtering everyone to make way for new generations? Or do you think that everyone is just immortal? Can you explain to me how these scenarios - or whatever scenario you came up with to explain how people die - are somehow less ridiculous than the idea of dying of old age?

Look, again, quotes should not be excluded necessarily because they present information you personally found obvious; if it answers a question many people had, and/or manages to alert many people to information they were not previously aware of, it deserves inclusion! I was not aware that was how Old Age Death worked in this world. It's great that you were, but it's clear most people were not, or at least see that a hard confirmation from Word of God is a pretty beneficial addition to the Word of God thread.

You may have good arguments for why it should be evident or able to be deduced logically, but do you want to make those arguments every time it comes up, or do you want to have a resource you can point at that says 'this is how it works'?

[FujinAkari]

People in OOTS literally die of old age. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16564021&postcount=34)

Unneccessary. We really don't need an inclusion that OOTS follows D&D 3.5 rules. That is the default assumption.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You may have good arguments for why it should be evident or able to be deduced logically, but do you want to make those arguments every time it comes up, or do you want to have a resource you can point at that says 'this is how it works'?

We already have a resource we can point at that says "this is how it works": the SRD. This is exactly the same as when someone complained that Roy should have died of severe trauma when Tarkin cut through his torso with a greatsword. "In the real world things don't work like that" is not a good enough reason to try and compile all the ways in which D&D rules are dissimilar to the real world, as explained by the Giant. Yes, in the real world you always die of a disease or trauma. In D&D, since "cure disease" renders all medicine irrelevant, you can't die of a disease. But you do eventually die of old age, even if that is impossible in RL. And we don't need the Giant to tell us this, because it is readily available in the SRD.

Grey Wolf

[orrion]

Look, again, quotes should not be excluded necessarily because they present information you personally found obvious; if it answers a question many people had, and/or manages to alert many people to information they were not previously aware of, it deserves inclusion! I was not aware that was how Old Age Death worked in this world. It's great that you were, but it's clear most people were not, or at least see that a hard confirmation from Word of God is a pretty beneficial addition to the Word of God thread.

You may have good arguments for why it should be evident or able to be deduced logically, but do you want to make those arguments every time it comes up, or do you want to have a resource you can point at that says 'this is how it works'?

I don't see that this illuminates "many people," and even if it did people really didn't need the Giant to tell it to them. The information was already readily available elsewhere, which is untrue of the vast majority of information compiled in this thread. As others have pointed out, the question can be answered by simply linking the srd.

And actually, yes, I would rather point out to someone that their assumption of every person in the world being immortal is silly.

I used the personal originally because another poster made the error of saying that resurrection and old age confused "everyone" who had not played DnD. I was merely refuting that claim.

[Kalrany]

Resurrection restores you to your previous state, before whatever killed you occurred. So if you resurrected someone who died of old age they would just immediately die of old age again.



To me it's quite obvious that people die of old age.

Not everyone is an adventurer, so something has to kill off the common people eventually.

Are you suggesting that everyone in a dnd setting contracts deadly diseases at some point, or that there are groups of people running around just slaughtering everyone to make way for new generations? Or do you think that everyone is just immortal? Can you explain to me how these scenarios - or whatever scenario you came up with to explain how people die - are somehow less ridiculous than the idea of dying of old age?

I think it can help clarify that there could be more reasons as to why someone could be blocked from coming back. I understand the rules, as I am an old gamer, but this gives clarification for something that is not necessarily intuitive to everyone. Why can't disease or organ failure be healed? Then couldn't the life be extended? Without a hard expiration date, what rules out a magical life support system?

I don't think it would be very logical of a conclusion, but I have seen it come up in other debates. The explanation is a good visual that could be a useful reference for these questions. It's not unequivocally obvious to everyone.

[The Linker]

We already have a resource we can point at that says "this is how it works": the SRD. This is exactly the same as when someone complained that Roy should have died of severe trauma when Tarkin cut through his torso with a greatsword. "In the real world things don't work like that" is not a good enough reason to try and compile all the ways in which D&D rules are dissimilar to the real world, as explained by the Giant. Yes, in the real world you always die of a disease or trauma. In D&D, since "cure disease" renders all medicine irrelevant, you can't die of a disease. But you do eventually die of old age, even if that is impossible in RL. And we don't need the Giant to tell us this, because it is readily available in the SRD.

Emanick replied to this quite succinctly. You're missing the point that we're gleaning from the Giant's quote. 'Resurrection does not cure old age' is not the same as 'Old Age is the gods having decided you don't get to live anymore'. That's extremely interesting, to me, and not something I had previously pieced together -- certainly not from what the SRD says.


This quote isn't significant because of an explanation that resurrection doesn't cure death by old age. It's significant because it states that death by old age is a literal thing, and that people in OOTSverse die of old age on their birthday. That isn't remotely obvious; I thought that the very idea was ridiculous before The Giant stepped in with this post.

Reading this again, I realized I had missed the part where the Giant specified the birthday thing. Are you telling me 'when the person hits 12:01 on that birthday, they keel over dead from no apparent cause' is in the SRD? The Giant specifically mentions that's not how every fantasy world works. This is an Order of the Stick-specific thing. This is brand-new information. It's not exactly game-changing, but it's at least an interesting tidbit.

[orrion]

Reading this again, I realized I had missed the part where the Giant specified the birthday thing. Are you telling me 'when the person hits 12:01 on that birthday, they keel over dead from no apparent cause' is in the SRD? The Giant specifically mentions that's not how every fantasy world works. This is an Order of the Stick-specific thing. This is brand-new information. It's not exactly game-changing, but it's at least an interesting tidbit.

DnD is a numbers game, though. It's mildly interesting because a number of people probably never considered what that means when applied to death, but it's really no different than accepting that a roll of the dice determines whether you hit something with your sword.

[Emanick]

To me it's quite obvious that people die of old age.

Not everyone is an adventurer, so something has to kill off the common people eventually.

Are you suggesting that everyone in a dnd setting contracts deadly diseases at some point, or that there are groups of people running around just slaughtering everyone to make way for new generations? Or do you think that everyone is just immortal? Can you explain to me how these scenarios - or whatever scenario you came up with to explain how people die - are somehow less ridiculous than the idea of dying of old age?

My assumption was that in OOTSverse, dying of old age was roughly what we call "dying of old age" in our world - passing away from heart disease, a stroke, etc. Yes, remove disease spells exist because it's a D&D world, but that couldn't preemptively stave off a heart attack or a stroke. Call me stupid, but I don't think that assumption was irrational in any way, and I doubt I was the only one who held it. That's how I would have depicted old age in a game I DMed, assuming my players ever got that old.

The new thing that The Giant's quote tells us - which I happen to find extremely interesting - is that in his world, people literally keel over of a malady specifically known as 'old age' at 12:01 on their birthdays. As The Linker points out, that in itself is not remotely intuitive.

I see no reason why an interesting quote that provides any sort of new information relevant to the OOTsverse shouldn't be included in the Index. Do you?

[FujinAkari]

This is brand-new information. It's not exactly game-changing, but it's at least an interesting tidbit.

While it is an interesting tidbit, the purpose of the index is not to archive interesting tidbits.


Rule C: The index is a forum tool, meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion. Thus, while the index may be fun to read through on a whim, this is not its primary purpose or focus - it is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection. It is for discussions more than it is for leisurely reading.

I just cannot possibly seeing this information coming up with any frequency. I am not especially -opposed- to its inclusion, but I certainly don't see it as a necessity.

[The Linker]

DnD is a numbers game, though. It's mildly interesting because a number of people probably never considered what that means when applied to death, but it's really no different than accepting that a roll of the dice determines whether you hit something with your sword.

Personally, I would have assumed that having a lifespan of 70+2d20 years and getting 84 would mean you died somewhere in your 84th year. I would have never guessed you literally died the minute your 84th year began. It makes sense for this world, and I might have submitted that theory tongue-in-cheek, but I never would have assumed 'Oh, that's obviously how it works.'

[Grey_Wolf_c]

'Old Age is the gods having decided you don't get to live anymore'. That's extremely interesting, to me, and not something I had previously pieced together -- certainly not from what the SRD says.

And yet that is precisely was the SRD does say:
"When a character reaches venerable age, secretly roll his or her maximum age, which is the number from the Venerable column on Table: Aging Effects plus the result of the dice roll indicated on the Maximum Age column on that table, and records the result, which the player does not know. A character who reaches his or her maximum age dies of old age at some time during the following year."

Giant just substituted who rolls the die, from the DM to the Gods, the Fates, etc. He has not added any new information, and the SRD still contains all the relevant information.

If instead of having been the Giant, it had been Kish giving the exact same answers, exactly from the SRD, we would not be having this conversation, The Giant wasn't talking about OotS, he was talking about D&D rules, and how they are a reflection of older fantasy tropes going back to ancient Greece. It does not need to be recorded, since the Giant asked us to stick to explanations specific to OotS.

Grey Wolf

[Scow2]

While it is an interesting tidbit, the purpose of the index is not to archive interesting tidbits.



I just cannot possibly seeing this information coming up with any frequency. I am not especially -opposed- to its inclusion, but I certainly don't see it as a necessity.

I imagine it will come up a few times in the future quite easily... there are at least 3 points of argument it can reference.

[Emanick]

And yet that is precisely was the SRD does say:
"When a character reaches venerable age, secretly roll his or her maximum age, which is the number from the Venerable column on Table: Aging Effects plus the result of the dice roll indicated on the Maximum Age column on that table, and records the result, which the player does not know. A character who reaches his or her maximum age dies of old age at some time during the following year."

Giant just substituted who rolls the die, from the DM to the Gods, the Fates, etc. He has not added any new information, and the SRD still contains all the relevant information.

If instead of having been the Giant, it had been Kish giving the exact same answers, exactly from the SRD, we would not be having this conversation, The Giant wasn't talking about OotS, he was talking about D&D rules, and how they are a reflection of older fantasy tropes going back to ancient Greece. It does not need to be recorded, since the Giant asked us to stick to explanations specific to OotS.

Grey Wolf

Can you explain why you believe the substantial difference between my interpretation of the SRD and how The Giant says old age works in OOTSverse constitutes a lack of new information? Your interpretation of the SRD's text is clearly not the only plausible one.

[Kish]

I would suggest that calling a halt to the argument while ThePhantasm holds a vote on inclusion or lack thereof would be superior to arguing it out in this thread.

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah, let's vote on the old age quote. For inclusion, vote YES, otherwise, vote NO.

[Shale]

I vote YES. The gulf between the common meaning of "die of old age" and dropping dead with no proximate cause is notable, even if it's not certain to be consequential.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No

Grey Wolf

[ReaderAt2046]

I vote YES.

[FujinAkari]

No. There really isn't anything substantial inherent to the quote which would be useful in furthering discussion.

[Taelas]

YES.

It implements the rules of the SRD in a way that is not intuitively obvious; most people would not assume that, in D&D, you died precisely at 12:01 on your final birthday. They would simply assume you would die sometime in the relevant year.

[Kish]

NO. While there is some information there (that people literally keel over on their birthdays when they die of old age in OotS, that the gods literally roll dice to decide which birthday will be their last), it hasn't mattered to OotS in 934 strips and unknown numbers of offline-only strips, and I doubt it will matter for another 934+.

[137beth]

YESArbitrary post extension.

[NerdyKris]

After reading the arguments against it, I'm changing my mind and voting No.

[Porthos]

YES.

The detail about dropping dead on your birthdate is campaign-specific enough to warrant inclusion (never mind one of the more disquieting things I've read about OotSWorld, to be honest). Including the more basic fact that "Old Age" is an actual cause of death rather than an abstraction.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

After reading the arguments against it, I'm changing my mind

(as an aside, I still can't suppress the feeling that the world must be coming to an end every time someone admits to changing their mind on the Internet)

GW

[Joerg]

Yes. What Szar_Lakol said.

[Flame of Anor]

YES.

It implements the rules of the SRD in a way that is not intuitively obvious; most people would not assume that, in D&D, you died precisely at 12:01 on your final birthday. They would simply assume you would die sometime in the relevant year.

Yes, agreed.

[Emanick]

Yes. While the fact may not be of material consequence to the story, I find it a fascinating detail highly unique to OOTSverse, and it would be a shame not to preserve the quote in some way.

[kgato503]

I have been keeping up with the discussion, and if I may be permitted to vote, I vote Yes. I feel that the specifics on how death by old age works in the OotS universe is valuable information, and can help further discussions here on the forum.

[ti'esar]

Yes .......

[orrion]

No.

Silly 10 character minimum.

[Sniffnoy]

Yes.

The rules of D&D attempt to approximate what happens in a fantasy world. When writing a story based on D&D, the default is to assume that there is something "actually occurring" in the fantasy world, and the in-game representation is just an approximation. Generally the expectation would be that while, according to the rules, one simply dies of old age at some time in the specified year (and note that it's just at some time), in the world the game is representing, this means that sometime during that year the character dies of causes either not curable by or not even understood to medicine at the time. (Organ failure, cancer, general deterioration...) Characters can tell that they're dying because they're old and kind of frail and sick, but they don't know exactly when they'll die.

That in this case the rules A. are not an approximation (as they often are, even in this comic that explicitly runs on the D&D rules), B. it happens at 12:01 on their birthday rather than at "some time during the year", and C. that it happens because of the gods cutting the thread of one's fate is all quite notable.

[Debatra]

Voting Yes.

[Kalrany]

Yes.

The rules of D&D attempt to approximate what happens in a fantasy world. When writing a story based on D&D, the default is to assume that there is something "actually occurring" in the fantasy world, and the in-game representation is just an approximation. Generally the expectation would be that while, according to the rules, one simply dies of old age at some time in the specified year (and note that it's just at some time), in the world the game is representing, this means that sometime during that year the character dies of causes either not curable by or not even understood to medicine at the time. (Organ failure, cancer, general deterioration...) Characters can tell that they're dying because they're old and kind of frail and sick, but they don't know exactly when they'll die.

That in this case the rules A. are not an approximation (as they often are, even in this comic that explicitly runs on the D&D rules), B. it happens at 12:01 on their birthday rather than at "some time during the year", and C. that it happens because of the gods cutting the thread of one's fate is all quite notable.



Yes. This is an OotS specific interpretation, clarified. May be useful, definatly OotS world building.

[ORione]

Yes I think it's interesting to know how OotS is interpreting the D&D rules that it's following.

[ella ventic]

This interested lurker votes Yes.

[astralmeson]

Yes

Although standard, it would be useful for clarification's sake.

[Angel Bob]

No.

Just... no.

[Jasdoif]

No. I simply don't see what the quote would clarify above the standard rules. I can't even remember a reference to birthdays besides a side comment by Roy's Archon about Roy's off-panel birthday (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html). Come to think of it...is there even any reference to days of the year other than different New Years between the north and Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html)?

If we don't even know what day it is, or when birthdays are, what's going to be clarified by a quote about what happens on a birthday?

[sam79]

Yes, for reasons already expressed. Seems intrinsically interesting enough and developed enough from standard D+D rules to be worth inclusion.

[The Linker]

A yes from me!

[Bird]

Yes.

It's interesting, and the nuance about gods does tell us something about OotS.

[Da'Shain]

Yes.

It's an interesting tidbit that is probably not going to be relevant to the story but adds to OotS worldbuilding. Furthermore, it violates none of the agreed upon thread rules and is clearly included under Rule B. Thus, the mere fact that even some people are interested (myself included) should merit inclusion.

[martianmister]

Yes. unicorns vs mongols

[Muenster Man]

Yes, if this was back on the old thread where we had limited space, I wouldn't want it in, but we have a lot of room and this is a nice bit of world building

[Gray Mage]

No. I just don't see it as being necessary or usefull in the future.

[oppyu]

YES

For people like myself who don't know the D&D rules, it's interesting world-building.

[FLHerne]

Definitely yes. While the SRD mentions 'dying of old age' it doesn't (that I can see) explicitly state what this entails or if it differs from that term's normal usage.
That 'old age' in OOTS is a specific cause of death can't be directly inferred from the rules, let alone the more detailed stuff, and new information about the workings of OOTSworld belongs in this thread.

[Sir_Leorik]

No.

This is a feature of the D&D rules. If there is someone unfamiliar with the reason why Myrtok couldn't Raise Eric from the dead (Eric didn't want to come home) or why Eugene's lifespan had a natural limit, they should be directed to the 3.5 PHB or SRD.

[Throknor]

Yes.

The giant is on record that the rules aren't always followed, so there's no reason to think referring an argument to external rules would stop any discussion.

[DaggerPen]

Yes.

While dying at a pre-rolled age is readily available information about D&D, the exact time of death is an interesting enough tidbit that I think it merits inclusion.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes

On the subject of including new quotes, the Giant has deigned to give his thoughts on the reaction he meant Tarquin to ellicit and the point of his character arc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16573359&postcount=34).

[thatSeniorGuy]

Another Yes from another lurker.

[theangelJean]

Yes.

Also, wow, this thread's following has grown ... I don't think we've had a vote with this level of participation since the thread rules were proposed.

[SaintRidley]

YES.

The detail about dropping dead on your birthdate is campaign-specific enough to warrant inclusion (never mind one of the more disquieting things I've read about OotSWorld, to be honest). Including the more basic fact that "Old Age" is an actual cause of death rather than an abstraction.

This. Yes.

Also, proposing this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16573456&postcount=40) for the index to go along with the one zimmerwald gave with Rich's post about Tarquin (people always seem to have questions about that guy for some reason). Actual usefulness here, uncertain, but can't hurt to put it here at least.

[Gift Jeraff]

YES.

It implements the rules of the SRD in a way that is not intuitively obvious; most people would not assume that, in D&D, you died precisely at 12:01 on your final birthday. They would simply assume you would die sometime in the relevant year.

Yes, what he said.

[orrion]

Yes.

The giant is on record that the rules aren't always followed, so there's no reason to think referring an argument to external rules would stop any discussion.

I can't see what relevance to the story this particular rule has in the first place.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I say yes to adding that post, to adding all three in fact.

[Debatra]

The third might be a little redundant.

[3Doubloons]

NO. It doesn't matter what "dying of old age" means in OotS because it will most likely never come up. There is, to my knowledge, no one significant in the strip who has reached Venerable age. The post is a marginally interesting titbit but nothing more

[CoffeeIncluded]

The third might be a little redundant.

I don't think so.

[NCoffin]

Add another to the No column. While this clarifies The Giant's interpretation of the SRD ruling on old age, I see no reason to believe it adds to discussion any more than the bare rules would. It's trivia at best.

[SaintRidley]

For the no because trivia crowd, this may not change your mind but it bears consideration. What does this knowledge add to our understanding of the comic? Nothing directly related to the plot (so far as we have it) and nothing that will relate to the death of any main character (except possibly Mantle-less Redcloak). But it does add another layer to something we've received hints about in the past, which does affect one of the themes of the story. It deepens our understanding of the gods' caprice. It goes right there with making certain races only to be xp fodder for the gods' clerics, for instance. For me, the story prompts questions like "What value is there to having gods if they act like this?" and highlights yet another way in which discrimination is literally part of roleplaying games and how these things don't even get questioned - reach your maximum age and die on your birthday, dragons color coded for your convenience, and so on.

That's why I think it's important. It may not have much merit by itself, but it does given the context of other things Rich has said and done in the comic.

[ChristianSt]

It doesn't matter what "dying of old age" means in OotS because it will most likely never come up. There is, to my knowledge, no one significant in the strip who has reached Venerable age. The post is a marginally interesting titbit but nothing more

How can you say if it does not matter because it most likely never comes up, when it already did come up?

We have one character who did die because of old age (Eugene), we have one character imo directly affected by it (Shojo - without the certainty of dying of old age soon anyway, it would have made much more sense to get resurrected) and even some characters for whom it may be heavily relevant (most notable Serini, and maybe even other Scribblers). And I don't think you can call any of these characters insignificant. Sure, they appear in not that many strips (some of them probably because they are dead/MIA), but they are essential parts of the story.

I initially didn't opt to vote (and seeing the current results, I think it isn't really necessary), but I'm going to put my Yes into the ballot.

[Brisingry]

Yes.

On another note, the Giant's been posting quite a bit on "the rapid change in Tarquin." Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16574882&postcount=64) the post that I think sums it up the best: that Tarquin's overall purpose in the narrative was to show that acting good once in awhile does not make one good.

[Kish]

Tarquin is, and has always been, a quasi-delusional control freak that needs to be reined in by one of his allies half the time, not a tactical genius. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575446&postcount=91)

I know the thread had already been linked to, but I just had to link that specific post. In fact, I'm tempted to do it again.

[RMS Oceanic]

It's a conversation in development; I'd wait until Rich is finished and then we can gather up all the important bits.

[orrion]

How can you say if it does not matter because it most likely never comes up, when it already did come up?

We have one character who did die because of old age (Eugene), we have one character imo directly affected by it (Shojo - without the certainty of dying of old age soon anyway, it would have made much more sense to get resurrected) and even some characters for whom it may be heavily relevant (most notable Serini, and maybe even other Scribblers). And I don't think you can call any of these characters insignificant. Sure, they appear in not that many strips (some of them probably because they are dead/MIA), but they are essential parts of the story.

I initially didn't opt to vote (and seeing the current results, I think it isn't really necessary), but I'm going to put my Yes into the ballot.

The fact that we know Eugene died of old age already does what adding the quote to the index would do. It's heavily implied (if not stated outright) that Girard also died of old age, and do you really think that group had no access to Resurrection?

[Brookshw]

Voting yes to all.

[Angel Bob]

We definitely need that Tarquin quote in the Index, but like RMS Oceanic said, we should wait until all is said and done in that thread.

[CoffeeIncluded]

We definitely need that Tarquin quote in the Index, but like RMS Oceanic said, we should wait until all is said and done in that thread.

That's honestly one of the most important quotes of all about Tarquin, as it's subtle for a long time and not something most people will pick up on.

[3Doubloons]

How can you say if it does not matter because it most likely never comes up, when it already did come up?

We have one character who did die because of old age (Eugene), we have one character imo directly affected by it (Shojo - without the certainty of dying of old age soon anyway, it would have made much more sense to get resurrected) and even some characters for whom it may be heavily relevant (most notable Serini, and maybe even other Scribblers). And I don't think you can call any of these characters insignificant. Sure, they appear in not that many strips (some of them probably because they are dead/MIA), but they are essential parts of the story.


The Giant's post doesn't say "People die of old age", it explains how dying of old age works. It matters that people have died of old age in the past or future, but it makes no difference whether they dropped dead on their birthday, sometime during the year following their final birthday or from irreparable organ failure. That last part is what the post explained and however the Giant might have chosen to implement death from old age in his world is completely irrelevant.

[VanIsleKnight]

Voting YES for inclusion of old age information.

[ThePhantasm]

Okay, let's end the vote. I'll count it up in a little bit... in a rush at the moment. Will try to update tonight if I can.

[SaintRidley]

Okay, let's end the vote. I'll count it up in a little bit... in a rush at the moment. Will try to update tonight if I can.

Quick count - 35 yes and 11 no.

The ayes would appear to have it.

[Bird]

Everybody on Team Tarquin is evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575471&postcount=93)
Plus, Tarquin is the Elan of his team.

[orrion]

Plus, Tarquin is the Elan of his team.

... That wasn't obvious? Remember the first time we saw Tarquin? Remember the immediate conversation between V and Malack?

"Is yours always like this?" "Sadly, yes. Yours?" "Yes."

[oppyu]

Summary of the Tarquin thread.

1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16573359&postcount=34)
2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16573456&postcount=40)
3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16574882&postcount=64)
4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575274&postcount=75)
5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575337&postcount=79)
6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575409&postcount=87)
7 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575446&postcount=91)
8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575471&postcount=93)
9 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575512&postcount=98)
10 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575631&postcount=118)
11 - Alright dudes, I gotta get back to work. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575691&postcount=127)

[ThePhantasm]

We probably don't need all of those. Maybe we should just pick a few that best summarize the content?

[Sir_Leorik]

We probably don't need all of those. Maybe we should just pick a few that best summarize the content?

IMO, #8 summarizes The Giant's point very well.

[zimmerwald1915]

We probably don't need all of those. Maybe we should just pick a few that best summarize the content?
If we're picking and choosing, I'd include the quotes that elaborate on the message he created Tarquin, in part, to convey (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16574882&postcount=64), dispense writing advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575274&postcount=75), that talk about the difference between stress as an agent of character revelation and stress as an excuse for bad behavior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575409&postcount=87) and that recount the development of Tarquin's delusions of grandeur with respect to the three empire scheme (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575471&postcount=93).

[orrion]

At this point can't we just link to the Giant's first post in that thread that then file it under a general header like "Stuff about Tarquin's characterization"?

[zimmerwald1915]

At this point can't we just link to the Giant's first post in that thread that then file it under a general header like "Stuff about Tarquin's characterization"?
I'd rather we didn't. Any gain in brevity is more than balanced by the lost opportunity to communicate that the Giant is talking about more things, and bigger, than Tarquin's characterization.

[Bird]

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575471&postcount=93) belongs under character alignments. Settles the "Is Laurin neutral?" issue which came up a lot, and establishes that the rest of TT is evil as well.

[oppyu]

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16575471&postcount=93) belongs under character alignments. Settles the "Is Laurin neutral?" issue which came up a lot, and establishes that the rest of TT is evil as well.
It also settles the 'Is Malack Neutral' issue :smallbiggrin:

[Brisingry]

I agree with the four that Zimmerwald suggested with the exception of the 3rd one: while it may be nice to know the Giant's thoughts on stress and character, it's not something that involves the OotS whatsoever. The second one is worth keeping just because it also includes the nifty statement that this is, by far, the worst day of Tarquin's life. :smallbiggrin:

[orrion]

I agree with the four that Zimmerwald suggested with the exception of the 3rd one: while it may be nice to know the Giant's thoughts on stress and character, it's not something that involves the OotS whatsoever. The second one is worth keeping just because it also includes the nifty statement that this is, by far, the worst day of Tarquin's life. :smallbiggrin:

Tarquin lost his best friend, killed one of his sons, and his other son is actively defying him to the best of his ability.

I don't need the Giant to tell me this is Tarquin's worst day ever.

[ti'esar]

Tarquin lost his best friend, killed one of his sons, and his other son is actively defying him to the best of his ability.

I don't need the Giant to tell me this is Tarquin's worst day ever.

On the other hand, as Kish said in that thread, I'm pretty sure what losing one's best friend means to Tarquin is more like what losing one's best china would mean to a normal person.

But point taken.

[FlawedParadigm]

On the other hand, as Kish said in that thread, I'm pretty sure what losing one's best friend means to Tarquin is more like what losing one's best china would mean to a normal person.

But point taken.

We know very different "normal people" if yours can afford to own china, much less enough sets of it to have a "best."

That said, I'm all for including any quotes regarding character alignments, if only so that it might save Rich the trouble of having Laurin punch a few bunnies on-panel just to prove she's evil. Same with Shoulder-Pad Guy and Jacinda the Catgirl Paladin.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We know very different "normal people" if yours can afford to own china, much less enough sets of it to have a "best."


"China" is a generic name for all the plates/dishes/bowls in a house. And yes, I know many families who have both a regular china set for everyday use (not actually made of "proper" china, but not made out of plastic either) and one "good" set usually inherited from previous generations used only on special occasions.

"China" in this context means the same as "silverware" does: refers to a specific set of utensils that used to be made in that material, and that has become generic even for the functionally same utensils no longer made of the material that gives them the name.

Grey Wolf

[KillianHawkeye]

"China" is a generic name for all the plates/dishes/bowls in a house. And yes, I know many families who have both a regular china set for everyday use (not actually made of "proper" china, but not made out of plastic either) and one "good" set usually inherited from previous generations used only on special occasions.

"China" in this context means the same as "silverware" does: refers to a specific set of utensils that used to be made in that material, and that has become generic even for the functionally same utensils no longer made of the material that gives them the name.

Grey Wolf

That's not universal. I don't know a single person who refers to normal plates and cups as "china." That word is reserved for fancy X-Mas and Thanksgiving dinner stuff. We do use "silverware" for normal forks and knives and such, however.

[FlawedParadigm]

{SCRUBBED}

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's not universal. I don't know a single person who refers to normal plates and cups as "china." That word is reserved for fancy X-Mas and Thanksgiving dinner stuff. We do use "silverware" for normal forks and knives and such, however.

I know it's not universal, that's why I thought I should clarify. It's fairly extended around were I grew up, but not where I live now. Like what is meant by "soda", it is one of those words that depending which body of large water you live nearest to can mean completely different things.

GW

[Justin Time]

{{scrubbed}}

[FlawedParadigm]

{SCRUBBED}.

{SCRUBBED}

[The Giant]

Stop it.……….

[Fish]

The argument about china is ridiculous. From context, you can easily substitute "valued possession" or "favorite toy."

Anyway: I think Zimmerwald's selection is very good. It's an interesting topic, but most of it only tangential to OOTS.

[pendell]

I believe that this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16582302&postcount=212) is critical for interpreting the Giant's comments. Namely, that when he speaks extemporaneously and off the cuff, he has a tendancy to exaggerate. So this should be taken on board when reading his comments, to take away the general sense of what he's aiming at, rather than reading too much into the literal text.

For instance, of the Giant says "Tarquin is a bad general", this isn't meant to imply, in context with his other comments, that a man who conquers most of a continent is subpar. It simply means he's not really as good as he thinks he is, and that his allies are a big, big part of the reason for his success.

This is why, by the way, I prefer to include ALL the Giant's comments no matter how trivial. Because each one gives clues and context to other remarks which are more significant.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I believe that this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16582302&postcount=212) is critical for interpreting the Giant's comments. Namely, that when he speaks extemporaneously and off the cuff, he has a tendancy to exaggerate. So this should be taken on board when reading his comments, to take away the general sense of what he's aiming at, rather than reading too much into the literal text.

I very much agree. For my part, I think it applies to the "you die of old age at 12:01" - I expect he was thinking of the fact you roll dice to determine years left, which would mean dying on your birthday, without actually refreshing his memory on the actual rules in the SRD (I mean, how often does that even come up in a game? Who would remember off the cuff?)

Grey Wolf

Note: to be absolutely clear, I am not suggesting not to include the old age death quote - I am a great believer in the Power of Consensus, and I know "my" "side" got well and truly beaten. I'm just saying I think we are over-reading most quotes, and that just happens to be freshest in my mind.

EDIT: Furthermore, I'm not sure I know of a solution to the connundrum. Maybe we could paste the quote "I tend to exaggerate when speaking extemporaneously and describe things out of proportion to what I really intended" to the top of the OP, and call it the First Rule of the Thread, so that all of us (me, in particular) remember at all times that hyperbole does indeed exist and may apply to any of the other comments.

[Lord Torath]

Maybe we could paste the quote "I tend to exaggerate when speaking extemporaneously and describe things out of proportion to what I really intended" to the top of the OP, and call it the First Rule of the Thread, so that all of us (me, in particular) remember at all times that hyperbole does indeed exist and may apply to any of the other comments.I fully support this idea.