Racial substitution levels

[PaucaTerrorem]

Are they worth it? Lets even go with stereotypical roles for each race.

[eggynack]

It depends on the racial substitution levels. Using druids as an example, halfling and goliath substitution levels are pretty bad (though the latter is mostly cause you have to be a goliath), while half-orc and shifter substitution levels are quite good, and fangshields druid substitution levels are decent. If you count planar druid substitution levels, they're alright. So, it depends.

[Pluto!]

There are a ton, and they all depend. The Gnome Bard sub levels, for instance, are sweet. The Dwarf Fighter sub levels, for counter-instance, just suck.

Any of these you're looking at in particular?

[Phelix-Mu]

I've been a fan of halfling rogue racial substitution level for some time now. The halfling monk one is not as cool, but is a nifty way to get access to skirmish without dipping scout.

Planar sorcerer is an awesome substitution level, but it's not really racial. Dragonblooded sorcerer can be useful (RoD), nice for fitting in the right set of feats to dragon-themed sorc build.

One or other of the dwarven ones wasn't too shabby. Fighter. Well, it's for Fighter.

I will ditto the shifter druid. Pretty hard to rock harder than that. Shifter ranger isn't too bad, and I seem to remember changeling wizard being brought up from time to time. Races of Eberron is a pretty good book; but maybe that is my inner druid speaking.

Elven generalist is all over the boards, so there's that. I am a fan of both the elven and gnome ranger sub levels. The alternate Favored Enemy progressions can be pretty useful if you know the theme of a campaign and will run into those enemies often (or play in a sandbox campaign).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Goliath Barbarian is pretty sweet.

[Story]

Elf Wizard 1 and 3 are pure awesome. 5 is only useful for prereqs, but most Wizards are going to be taking Spontaneous Divination instead anyway.

[Treme]

Gnome Illusionist from Races of Stone is good too.. early access to what you want but you need to suffer in another school (-1 caster level)

[Big Fau]

The Changeling RSLs are all pretty good. The Rogue one gets 10+Int skill points at every Rogue level (not just the RSLs), and the Wizard one is about as good as Focused Specialist.

The Planar Wizard is technically an ACF, but it follows the mechanics of RSLs. It's also good, but only if you can abuse Drow of the Underdark's Abyss Specialist Wizard and have access to Fiendish Codex 1.

[Story]

If you don't want Planar Wizard, a persisted Touch of the Blackened Soul works just as well.

[TripleD]

Kobold fighter from RotD is pretty sweet if you're inclined to spear based combat.

First level gives you Dodge and about five free weapon focuses (any spear or spear-like weapon) in exchange for medium and heavy armour proficiency. Second level gives you +2 Con instead of a feat, which is even nicer if you choose desert kobold from UA.

The fifth level substitution, +2 strength, is nice, but requires taking more than two levels of fighter (almost never worth it).

[Morphie]

I think the sub levels for halfling druid are pretty good - except for the 5th - if you choose the companion as mount route. Also, the alternative spontaneous casting spell list has come in handy several times on the adventure path I'm playing at the moment.

I think the axe focus on the 1st level of the Dwarven fighter is also really good, but I play on a low-to-mid op group, not all of our fighters go for the dungeoncrasher-bla-bla-bla route.

[eggynack]

I think the sub levels for halfling druid are pretty good - except for the 5th - if you choose the companion as mount route. Also, the alternative spontaneous casting spell list has come in handy several times on the adventure path I'm playing at the moment.

The alternate spontaneous casting options just seem worse than the normal summoning. Jump is definitely worse than SNA I, because hurling an animal will usually get you more utility than being able to jump. You can toss those things in traps, or use them as a blocker, or actually combat with them. Wolves are pretty meaty. Spider climb is alright when you first get it, but it becomes pretty obsolete when you start wild shaping everywhere. Even at the levels where it could help, it'd probably be better to just prep it. It runs for awhile. You're also competing with hippogriffs, which are sweet, and you get dire badgers at that level, which leave behind a usable tunnel for utility power.

Then you get protection from energy, which seems like a big fat meh to me. It's kinda situational, which is the opposite of where you want to be with your spontaneous casting (You want the base spell to be situational, and then you replace them later). That's competing against dire wolves and lions, which are combat beasts. Then freedom of movement, and that's actually really bad. It's not that FoM is a bad spell, but heart of water is a level lower and lasts all day. It's just a better option, and you're pairing that up against some real winners. Seriously, with giant crocodiles for beat sticking, unicorns for out of combat utility, and yellow musk creepers for being awesome, it's just not even close. Finally you get tree stride, which seems kinda pointless on a spontaneous basis. If you need a tree stride, just prep one. Easy. It's not like I'm going to rely on there being a tree nearby for my spontaneous retreat ability, so you're mostly talking long distance travel, and that can wait a little. You get some solid beat stick options at that level too, like dire lions and giant constrictors. In other words, bad trade.

So, by my reasoning, the first level is just not worth it. The extra skill points and skills are great, but losing summoning loses you out on a lot of your moment to moment versatility. That's what summoning is, in the end. Being able to turn wind wall into a dire wolf is what gives you the freedom to prep something as situational as wind wall in the first place. Being able to change it for protection from energy does not give you that freedom. The 13th level might be worthwhile though. It seems pretty cool.

[geekintheground]

The Changeling RSLs are all pretty good. The Rogue one gets 10+Int skill points at every Rogue level (not just the RSLs)

That's awesome, where's the rule?

[limejuicepowder]

That's awesome, where's the rule?

That's not even all they get -
1) Fasting usage of gather info
2) Faster usage of sense motive
3) Can always take 10 on bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and sense motive

All in exchange for trap finding.

Oh and it's pg 122 of Races of Eberron.

[Pluto!]

That's not even all they get -
1) Fasting usage of gather info
2) Faster usage of sense motive
3) Can always take 10 on bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and sense motive

All in exchange for trap finding.

Oh and it's pg 122 of Races of Eberron.
I imagine the rule that geekintheground is looking for a citation for is this part:

The Rogue one gets 10+Int skill points at every Rogue level (not just the RSLs)
...At least that's the part that has me digging around looking for supporting evidence.

[Tvtyrant]

Halfling druid for early tiny forms is fantastic on caster druids. Turn into an Owl for sneaking and casting, etc.

[Karnith]

I imagine the rule that geekintheground is looking for a citation for is this part:

...At least that's the part that has me digging around looking for supporting evidence.
Assuming that some other book didn't substantially alter the rules for RSLs, it involves reading this part of the rules for racial substitution levels:

When a substitution level changes the base class's Hit Dice or class skill list, the change applies only to the specific substitution class level, not to any other class levels.
And taking the absence of mention of "skill points at each level" to infer that the changes to skill points apply to other class levels, and that it overrides this part of the rules for RSLs:

When you take a substitution level for your class at a given level, you give up the benefits gained at that level for the standard class, and you get the substitution level benefits instead.
You can't go back and gain the benefits for the level you swapped out - when you take your next level in the standard class, you gain the next higher level as if you had gained the previous levels normally.

[Fax Celestis]

I imagine the rule that geekintheground is looking for a citation for is this part:

...At least that's the part that has me digging around looking for supporting evidence.

The rules for RSLs only delineate that ONLY HD and ability changes apply on the substituted levels. Other features apply for the entirety of the class.

[Phelix-Mu]

The rules for substitution levels from Races of Eberron appear to correspond exactly with what Karnith just posted. "At Each Level" appears to refer to "at each substitution level."

Regardless of the bad writing in the actual substitution level entry, page 121 of Races of Eberron specifically says


When a substitution level changes the Hit Die or
class skill list of the base class, the change applies
only to the specific substitution class level, not to
any other class levels. A warforged who takes the
warforged fighter substitution level as a 1st-level
character gains 12 hit points (from the substitution
level’s d12 Hit Die), and gains an additional 1d12 hit
points for each additional warforged fighter substitution
level he takes later in his career, but he gains
only the normal 1d10 hit points for all his standard
fighter levels.

Hmm. Well it did manage to leave out "number of skill points." Well, here's to bad writing.

As DM, it clearly seems to read that they meant that each racial substitution level's benefits are restricted to that level. If you can swing your DM on something else, that sounds good, but the RAW leaves much to be desired in backing up either position.

The one's that improve skill points now look a lot better. Like elven ranger, if memory serves.

[Fax Celestis]

This is the relevant bit:


When a substitution level changes the Hit Die or class skill list of the base class, the change applies only to the specific substitution class level, not to any other class levels[...]
Skill points aren't restricted per level.

[Karnith]

The one's that improve skill points now look a lot better. Like elven ranger, if memory serves.
And Gnome Incarnate (4 + Int mod skill points), Halfling Druid (6 + Int mod), Halfling Monk (6 + Int mod), Half-Elf Fighter (4 + Int mod), Tiefling Incarnate (4 + Int mod), and probably some others.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think we can quibble about this. The indication that the skill points change at every level is "Skill Points at Each Level." Is there something else? Cause they only inconsistently are disciplined about calling the RSL by RSL, occasionally backsliding and just saying level. "Each Level" could just mean "Each RSL," but they forgot to say so. Saying that two things (HD and skill list) don't change for other levels aside from the RSLs doesn't mean that those are the only things that don't change.

As I said before, I find the RAW vague and a good reading can be given for either ruling from what I see so far. I'm not saying either position is right, and I frankly might rule with what you all say (being a big fan of skill points generally).

Have I missed something? I'd like a stronger position in favor of explicitly changing skill points/level at every level. Maybe I missed something?

[limejuicepowder]

Skill points aren't restricted per level.

Sorry, that's a really weak argument, and personifies perfectly the RAW school of thought "If it doesn't say I CAN'T do it then I can." I can't imagine very many DM's would let that fly.

[Pluto!]

With blurbs like "when you take your next level in the standard class, you gain the next higher level as if you had gained the previous level normally" and "when you gain another level in druid, you gain the 2nd-level benefits of the standard druid class," it seems pretty suspect to treat the RSLs' skill points as if they would need explicit statements to not modify subsequent levels.

[limejuicepowder]

Have I missed something? I'd like a stronger position in favor of explicitly changing skill points/level at every level. Maybe I missed something?

I'd rule against it simply because that would make skill points the ONLY thing about RSL that act in that way. It seems a reasonable logical leap to say that if the writers intended that, they would have specified the way in which skill points don't act the way the rest of the RSL abilities act.

Yeah yeah I know this type of argument is looked down on ("we can't possibly know what the writers intended!"), but in this case, without something stronger favoring the other interpretation, I think it a fairly strong position.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yet, "Skill Points at Each Level" is almost the exact language from the PHB classes being substituted for. When I go back and grab 2nd level in rogue after Changeling Rogue 1, I am referenced to the Rogue 2nd level rules in the PHB, which have their own skill points number, under the heading "Each Additional Level."

One could argue that, by the given logic, I should be using the skill points from PHB, because RSL for x doesn't explicitly say at every level, but does say go and get the next level in class x as normal.

Again, not sure which argument is more sound at this point. LET'S DISCUSS!:smallsmile:

[Morphie]

The way I usually play is just getting the increased number of skill points on the specific substitution level.

About the alternative spell list by the halfling druid, it has been really useful on my case (specially spider climb) and also because I have too much bookkeeping already to take care of, dealing with summons is just something I only want to do when I plan for it. Our party has another druid and a malconvoker that spams summons a lot, they got it taken care of.
Another thing I really like is the Enhanced link it gives: a good bonus to ride, sharing the woodland stride and trackless step features when I'm mounted suits really well with the mounted combat route I chose. Being able to ride without a saddle adds fluff to the mix, which is also cool :smallsmile:

[Fax Celestis]

Sorry, that's a really weak argument, and personifies perfectly the RAW school of thought "If it doesn't say I CAN'T do it then I can." I can't imagine very many DM's would let that fly.

Nor would I. I'm just parroting the argument I've seen prior. I think it's kind of RAWdiculous, myself, but honestly an extra 2 skill points a level isn't going to break the game.