Would you allow this PRC? (Class from Tome of Necromancy)

[Feint's End]

So the story is that I start a Pathfinder mini story for a good punch of people who don't have the opportunity to play right now. Basically I organize a game every two weeks or so and everyone who has time at that point can come. Then they have a mission from their organization (inspired to some extend by the Pathfinder society) for that session and get rewarded in the end. So basically each session is closed in itself and players can be swapped every time.
I'd also like to say that this is my first real PF game I'm Dming and I looked forward to using the classes and having a relaxed game every two weeks ... or at least so I hoped. I just told you all this so you understand the background behind my following question.

Does anyone of you have experience with the Tome of Necromancy or the Bonerider in specific? Should I allow it? The most experienced player asked me if he could play a Swordsage (I'm totally ok with that since ToB, ToM and MoI are explicitely allowed) going into Bonerider at level 5. I'm kinda not sure if I should allow it now since it seems like a very powerful PRC. What I always liked about PF was that the PRCs are quite well balanced compared to the classes ... meaning you always give something up to get something different. This class however looks like it's just plain more powerful than other Pathfinder classes.

The reason the player in question wants this class is because he says that's the only way he can get the character concept he has in mind though I doubt it. Maybe you could give him some suggestions on how to do it. He has an agile combatant in mind who rides on a special mount and jumps around (up and down) kicking ass with his ranged weapon.

Short description for those without Tome of Necromancy:
-easy entry (ride, Mounted Combat and bab ... easily achieveable till level 4)
-full bab for 5 levels
-2 Levels of Blackguard Casting per Level of the PRC and the Casterlevel is dependant on overall Characterlevel (so at level 9 you had the casting of a level 10 Blackguard and your CL would be 9 too ... at level 20 you would have a Cl of 20)
-undead mount depending on your overall characterlevel (note that you just get this classfeature from a 1 level dip so you could just dip and had a scaling mount for all levels) with a CR of Character -2 (at level 20 you could ride a nightcrawler)

So what do you guys think? Is it too powerful for a more casual game?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's strictly superior to blackguard but only by a bit. Not really overwhelming.

The mount is ridiculous. You'd have to jump through some impressive hoops to accomplish a mount like that with WotC official material.

In answer to your question, no. I would not allow this class in one of my games, both because of the above points and also because I'm pretty leery of 3rd party materials.

[Feint's End]

It's strictly superior to blackguard but only by a bit. Not really overwhelming.

The mount is ridiculous. You'd have to jump through some impressive hoops to accomplish a mount like that with WotC official material.

Well you get the whole casting in 5 instead of 10 levels (it's a 5 level PRC) and the Casterlevel scales with your overall Characterlevel so the casting is much more potent. (especially because nothing stops you from going into another casting or manifesting PRC afterwards)

The mount is really ridiculous I agree.

My main point is that you get so much from a 5 level PRC .... a scaling mount, too good casting (4th grade in 5 levels!) which also scales with Characterlevel.

[Need_A_Life]

Two changes:
1) Make the mount feature comparable to the mount of a paladin two levels lower than you, give it skeleton traits as a standard, with the opportunity to attract a few handpicked other choices). Replaceable every 24 hours.
2) CL of Blackguard spells is equal twice your class level.

Then I'm fine with it. Blackguard spellcasting is pretty poor already, full BAB is nice but unimpressive. I would suggest Bone Knight (Five Nations) as an alternative, but I'm away from books and can't recall if it's a Paladin/Blackguard exclusive class.

[Big Fau]

4th level spells at 8th level isn't that overwhelming. Yes it's good, but it really depends on the spell list. As it is the Blackguard list, there is very little for you to be concerned about.

The mount is a bigger issue (hah!), but not much of one.

[Sception]

Bone Knight from Eberron's Five Nations is similar mechanically, but better - better balanced, and also more powerful, due to advancing divine casting (you can enter via paladin, but cleric is obviously preferred).

This thing... Honestly probably wouldn't be the end of the world, balance wise. It's not pushing the full casters, anyway. But it does read to me more like a 10 level PrC than a 5 level PrC. It's awkwardly designed, is what I'm saying.

If the player just wants the cool undead mount, would they be averse to taking, or you to letting them take, the undead leadership feat to pick up something like an Awakened skeletal Nightmare or Zombie Dragon with scaling HD, or even an appropriately leveled mount just right off the list in the PrC, as a cohort?

Alternatively, a couple level dip in incarnate would allow them to manifest a black halo of undead souls, allowing them to animate a necrocarnum zombie, which is actually a really good mount (zombie, but full actions and speed boost), and easily replaceable or upgradeable (just rebind the circlet to animate a different target). Doesn't work if he plans on going undead himself at some point, though.


Again, I don't think the PrC is going to break your game, Least not if you have any full casters in it, or even something like a summoner. And I like the idea of an undead special mount specialist prc, but this particular prc is just exceptionally clunky in its design.

[Coidzor]

Well you get the whole casting in 5 instead of 10 levels (it's a 5 level PRC) and the Casterlevel scales with your overall Characterlevel so the casting is much more potent. (especially because nothing stops you from going into another casting or manifesting PRC afterwards)

Unless the other players are weak enough that this would somehow overshadow them, you've got nothing to worry about from Blackguard casting with a decent caster level. :smallconfused:


The mount is really ridiculous I agree.

That's your only real point of concern for how it fits in with the rest of the group, I'd say. And it's a mount. It's not a Supermount, and even a Supermount is fine, generally.


My main point is that you get so much from a 5 level PRC .... a scaling mount, too good casting (4th grade in 5 levels!) which also scales with Characterlevel.

It is the Tome Series. It is supposed to be worth your while by default rather than being situational or not actually worth your time and just being for flavor.

[Sception]

Which is all fine and good, but 'each level of this class is two levels of that class's casting' is just clunky rules writing. Better if the author had put the time into a unique spell list that they thought was appropriate. And a major first level feature that scales with character rather than class level is also super iffy. This class is a one level dip, and it's a bit much for that. It's functionally equivalent to taking the Leadership feat, and using the cohort slot for a mount, so rather than bothering with an awkward, if admittedly not overpowered, 3rd party PrC, I'd be inclined to simply advise the player to take leadership or undead leadership and have done.