Gestalt Characters

[MightyMuenster]

I'm about to start up a Gestalt campaign with my friends and I have a few questions about class advancement. Firstly, how would a character go with a cross class Gestalt? It seems easy enough if a player was a Rogue-Fighter3/Bard-Sorc1, but what if a player wanted to go from Rogue-Fighter to Sorc-Fighter? How would this be handled in the game?

Also, how would prestige classes play out? Would a player be required to take on two prestige classes and fulfill the requirements for both? Or should tweaks be made to the classes to make them balanced in a gestalt world?

Now... the reason I'm using Gestalt in the first place is because this is going to be a very casual game. It's set to meet whenever we come home for breaks from college, so I want it to be fast paced and fun, with lots of room for RPing but also lots of room for fighting those enemies that seem so iconic of D&D.

Thanks in advanced!

[Jack_Simth]

Most of that's up to the DM. The Gestalt listing in Unearthed Arcana (or was that Arcana Unearthed?) aren't well defined when it comes down to multiclassing. A few things that are mentioned....

No dual-PrC's - so you can maybe have a monk-20//Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5, but you can't have a Monk-5/Psionic Fist-10/Enlightened Fist-5//Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5

No "gestalt-like" PrC's. No, you can't have a Wiz||Cleric 3 / Druid || Mystic Theurge X

Most the rest aren't particularly clear, although you can find what there is in the way of specifics Here (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/unearthedGestalt.html)

[Ramza00]

Advice prevent the most obvious powergaming.

Be careful what you allow in game with "multi-class feats." Ascetic mage is probally not going to be a big problem. Cha to AC yet you are still forced to be unarmored. But the new Daring Outlaw which was balanced against a multiclass character would be too powerful (Rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for grace, dodge bonus, and sneak attack). A Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17//Ninja 20 is just two powerful.

Also be ready to "gut" prestige classes that are not combination classes but are still to powerful. Abjurant Champion is not technically a combination class but it is still very powerful when compared against Eldritch Knight, ban it or make it d4 hp and 1/2 bab but keep the rest of the abilities.

Finally some abilities of classes/prcs were balanced by the fact there are other limiting factors. A 13th lvl duskblade can only arcane channel with a full attack 4th and eventually 5th lvl spells. A Duskblade/Wizard can do that with 9th lvl spells. Now part of this power creep is natural with gestalt a Duskblade/Wizard is an okay gestalt game wise for he will be fighting higher lvl encounters or other gestalt monsters or npcs.

But it can truley get insane, for example this gestalt combo.

Conjurer Wizard 5/Demonologist 3/Thaumaturgist 3/Demonologist 7/Thaumaturgist 2
//
Cleric 20

In the end wizard casting of 10th lvl spells (good buff posibilities), up to 4th lvl spells with Demonologist, and 20th lvl cleric casting.

Instead of a Familiar for wizard you take the Unearthed Arcana Rapid Summoning which allows you to summon monsters as a standard action instead of a full round action. You gain a Quasit familiar for free at lvl 7 with Demonoligist 2.
With Cleric you get Turn Undead with which you now use Divine Metamagic Quicken
Demonologist is a balanced prc in normal play due to the fact he gets his own spell list which goes up to 4th lvl spells. Demonologist also gains an ability called Summoning Mastery, a Demonologist of 3rd lvl treats all Summoning Monster spells as if they were 2 lvls higher. A Summon Monster 3 is now a Summon Monster 5. Eventually Summon Mastery increases from +2 to +3 to +4. Now this is balanced due in normal play due to the fact you only have 4th lvl spells, but in gestalt he may give up his wizard spells but he still has Cleric spells which can cast summon monster. Quicken Summon Monster IX from 5th lvl slots is just not right :smallfrown:

And he can still take all the improved summoning feats such as Augment Summoning and Imubed Summoning (the feat where your summons get a 3rd lvl buff/touch spell or lower instantly such as invisibility).Gestalt is very fun, but be careful of allowing certain combinations that were never meant to occur.

[Turcano]

There are several different possibilities for multiclassing; the main two are that each combination is considered separate classes for the purposes of multiclassing and that only combinations of classes that are both different from other classes are separate. Or you can simply scrap XP penalties entirely because they're bloody confusing.

I personally would allow "gestalt-like" prestige classes, but their benefits wouldn't stack with the other class slot, so a cleric 10//wizard 5/mystic theurge 5 would have CL 10 in both classes, not 10 wizard CL and 15 cleric CL. If you did it this way, a one-level dip in arcane heirophant to a druid//wizard gestalt would be pretty boss.

[Ramza00]

I personally would allow "gestalt-like" prestige classes, but their benefits wouldn't stack with the other class slot, so a cleric 10//wizard 5/mystic theurge 5 would have CL 10 in both classes, not 10 wizard CL and 15 cleric CL. If you did it this way, a one-level dip in arcane heirophant to a druid//wizard gestalt would be pretty boss.
Your example of Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant are not applicable since they are combination classes and are forbidden under gestalt.

Now a cleric 10/Master of Unseen Hand 5//Wizard 15 on the other hand has a caster lvl of 15 for wizard spells, 10 for cleric spells, and 20 for telekinesis. This is because the Improved Caster Level (EX) ability says your caster lvl of your class gets a bonus of the number of lvls you have in master of unseen hand. This ability was added with normal play to MotUH as a balance issue since Master of Unseen Hand doesn't progress spellcasting this way there telekinesis spells aren't underpowered and he sacricifices other spells for more telekinetic abilities. (Hierophant has a similar wording for its caster lvl, does it stack in gestalt? It is far less clear RAW wise, RAI its an obvious no.)

[Turcano]

Your example of Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant are not applicable since they are combination classes and are forbidden under gestalt.

Well, I did say "personally." And the reason why combination prestige classes are not allowed is because people would normally interpret the bonus caster levels/sneak attack/etc. as stacking. If you interpret them as overlapping, there is no real advantage to taking them other than for the class features that the prestige class itself provides. For example, if a player was playing a rogue//wizard gestalt and wanted ranged legerdemain really, really badly, I would see no problem with letting them become a rogue/arcane trickster//wizard and ignore the spells/day bonus (since it overlaps with the normal wizard progression). In retrospect, the mystic theurge was a really bad example.

[Tor the Fallen]

I would scrap PrC all together, or at least any that grant "+1 to existing class," as then you could accrue spell levels at 2x the rate, as well as classifying for them several levels early.

For instance, by fourth level, you could qualify for mystic theurge, and, if you went cleric/wiz 3, wiz/theurge 7 at tenth level, you'd cast as cleric 10/wizard 17.

Which is just ridiculous.

Rogue-Fighter to Sorc-Fighter would work like this:

Level one- take the abilities of both classes (sneak attack, trap finding, bonus feat, etc), use the best hitdie, saves, BAB, etc.

Level 2- add the better hitdie (fighter), better saves (fort as fighter, will as sorc, neither has a good reflex, so add 1/3 to the +2 you gained from rogue at level 1), and gain new abilities (bonus fighter feat, sorc familiar, spellcasting). You do not advance in levels of rogue. So now you are fighter2/rogue1/sorc1 one at level two. So if you're looking at your abilities as a fighter, they will be those of a 2nd level fighter, first level rogue, and a first level sorc.

Basically you advance one class to second level while 'multiclassing' with the new class, but just use the saves, BAB, etc, that's the best.


Level 1: rog1/ftr1
HP = 10+ con mod (from fighter)
Saves = 2 fort (from fighter), 2 reflex (from rogue), 0 will (1/3) (neither has a good will)
BAB= +1 (from fighter)
Abilities: fighter– bonus feat
rogue sneak attack– +1d6, trapfinding
Skills– (8 + Int modifier) ×4 (from rogue), class skill are all the ones on the rogue list, and all the ones on the fighter

Level 2: ftr2/rog1/sor1

HP= (10 + con mod) + (1d10 + con mod) (all from ftr)
Saves = 3 fort (from ftr), 2 reflex (from rog + 1/3 (since neither ftr nor sor has a good ref save, 1/3 (from level 1) + 2 (from sor) will.
BAB = +2 (from ftr)
Abilities= another bonus feat, spell casting exactly as a level one sorceror, ability to gain a familiar
Skills- 2 + int mod (both ftr and sor have sucky skills), class skills are all sorc and all ftr skills.

Does that make sense?

[JaronK]

I'm about to start up a Gestalt campaign with my friends and I have a few questions about class advancement. Firstly, how would a character go with a cross class Gestalt? It seems easy enough if a player was a Rogue-Fighter3/Bard-Sorc1, but what if a player wanted to go from Rogue-Fighter to Sorc-Fighter? How would this be handled in the game?

It's very simple. Write out the classes in the order you get them, like this:

Rogue 1//Fighter 1
Sorcerer 1//Fighter 2

Now, following gestalt rules, the character has: BAB +2 (both levels gave +1 BAB), Reflex Save of 2 (+2 at first level from rogue, no progression at second level), Fort Save of 3 (+2 at first level from fighter, +1 at second level from fighter), Will Save of 2 (+0 at first level, +2 at second level from Sorcerer), and D10 HD at both levels (fighter). He also has the class features of all these classes, so he's got two fighter bonus feats, 1d6 sneak attack, trap finding, and casts as a first level sorcerer.


Also, how would prestige classes play out? Would a player be required to take on two prestige classes and fulfill the requirements for both? Or should tweaks be made to the classes to make them balanced in a gestalt world?

First of all, you can't have two PrCs at once in Gestalt, so for example you could go:

Rogue 1-6//Fighter 1-6
Rogue 7-16//Frenzied Berserker 1-10
Assassin 1-4//Fighter 7-10

but you couldn't go

Rogue 1-6//Fighter 1-6
Assassin 1-10//Frenzied Berserker 1-10
Rogue 7-10//Fighter 7-10

Basically, you always have to take at least one base class at any given level. Now, that said, some classes are stronger in Gestalt. The ones you really need to lay down the law on are dual caster progression classes (like Mystic Theurge), as these get insanely strong in Gestalt. Others, don't worry about so much. Gestalt will be a bit stronger than normal play, but not as strong as you think. The first mistake most DMs make in their first Gestalt game is overestimating the characters and killing them all. So yeah, the players can take PrCs (one at a time) and as long as they're not basically two class PrCs (MT, Eldritch Knight, etc) they should be fine. Honestly, even EK isn't bad in Gestalt.


Now... the reason I'm using Gestalt in the first place is because this is going to be a very casual game. It's set to meet whenever we come home for breaks from college, so I want it to be fast paced and fun, with lots of room for RPing but also lots of room for fighting those enemies that seem so iconic of D&D.

Thanks in advanced!

Quite honestly, Gestalt is great. Having played it a lot I have a tough time going back to standard classes, as the characters just aren't as fun and flexible. Let me give you a few pointers.

1) There's a lot of bad advice out there about Gestalt, mostly from people who've just read the rules but never played it. Be aware of this. People will give silly advice like "be a Sorcerer//Wizard, it's really uber" or "Gestalt is too powerful, you can balance it by forcing people to not multiclass and play core only." In case you're wondering, the first is actually exceptionally weak, and the second is downright foolish, as Druid//Cleric is one of the strongest Gestalts possible.

2) It's not as strong as you think. Remember, even though you've got twice as many classes to play with, you've got about the same hitpoints, similar BAB, and the same number of actions, plus the same number of feats to work with. Gestalt characters often suffer from terrible feat shortages and MAD, which can weaken them considerably. Never assume a Gestalt party is as strong as a party about twice its level or twice the size, because it's really not. Doing so will very quickly kill the poor guys. Remember, they don't have that many hitpoints, nor do they have higher level spells than normal, and they don't have more actions than normal. Honestly, an optomized gestalt can handle CRs about 3 higher than normal, while a less optomized one (and people new to gestalt will likely not make very optimal ones) will only be able to handle maybe 1 CR higher than normal, but just be able to handle more encounters per day. Don't kill off your players! It should be noted that if players multiclass a lot, their saves will be quite high. This is okay, just lower the CR for monsters that rely on forcing saves.

3) Read the rules of Gestalt repeatedly. It's actually all very clear, but it takes a while to figure out. Important bit: if two classes, taken at the same level, progress the same thing, they overwrite, and do not stack. If a player tries to pull off something like Wizard 10//Fighter 6/Mindbender 4 and claims to have 12 caster levels of wizard, smack them. Repeatedly. With a hammer. Most of the rediculous power abuses in Gestalt happen because someone snuck in something that's against the rules.

4) Fractional BAB is given in Unearthed Arcana right next to the Gestalt rules. It is critically important that you use this system with Gestalt, or horrific abuses may happen. Trust me.

JaronK

[JaronK]

I would scrap PrC all together, or at least any that grant "+1 to existing class," as then you could accrue spell levels at 2x the rate, as well as classifying for them several levels early.

For instance, by fourth level, you could qualify for mystic theurge, and, if you went cleric/wiz 3, wiz/theurge 7 at tenth level, you'd cast as cleric 10/wizard 17.

Which is just ridiculous.

This is an example of what I was talking about in my post. This is patently false. Scrapping PrCs entirely just makes your players be druids or other classes that don't need to PrC out, MT is a banned class in Gestalt, and even if it were allowed, a Cleric 3/MT 7//Wizard 10 would cast exactly like a Cleric 10//Wizard 10, since the MT advancement of Wizard casting overlaps with the Wizard advancement of the same.

People, please. If you've never played Gestalt, don't try to give advice about it.

JaronK

[Ramza00]

Note there was no problem with the duskblade//wizard build I listed above.

And there was no problem with everything of the cleric/wizard summoner till you added the Summoning Mastery, and then added the Summoning Mastery onto your Cleric spells. If you just allowed the same class but didn't allow the abilities to stack in obscene ways (note I didn't say minimal stacking such as rapid summoning and then thamurologist, some stacking is good, gestalt is higher power, but its not obscene power, your characters are balanced against there villians remember). Be careful of obscene power combos and be prepared as a dm to say no.

Gestalt are fun games, just be ready to say no if your player power games into insanity. Do not go in as a pre-emptive attack and say you can't do X, Y, and Z. Just tell your players be respectful of the DM, and the DM will be respectful to you and would be willing to work with you :smallsmile:

[Tor the Fallen]

This is an example of what I was talking about in my post. This is patently false. Scrapping PrCs entirely just makes your players be druids or other classes that don't need to PrC out, MT is a banned class in Gestalt, and even if it were allowed, a Cleric 3/MT 7//Wizard 10 would cast exactly like a Cleric 10//Wizard 10, since the MT advancement of Wizard casting overlaps with the Wizard advancement of the same.

People, please. If you've never played Gestalt, don't try to give advice about it.

JaronK

Would a rogue and an assassin's sneak attacks stack, or overlap?


[edit]
Classes that complement each other are really great, especially if they make up for crappy saves in the other. Fighter/barb may have a lot of feats, but rogue/barb gets better saves and skills. 'Course, you can always dip ftr for feats.

Personally, I don't run my games with PrCs when we do gestalt, as it makes the characters more powerful than they already are, as they're essentially PrC's on steroids.

One thing about gestalt– they can go through more encounters without resting, faster, which means they gain exp quicker.

[Ramza00]

Would a rogue and an assassin's sneak attacks stack, or overlap?

Classes that complement each other are really great, especially if they make up for crappy saves in the other. Fighter/barb may have a lot of feats, but rogue/barb gets better saves and skills. 'Course, you can always dip ftr for feats.

Personally, I don't run my games with PrCs when we do gestalt, as it makes the characters more powerful than they already are, as they're essentially PrC's on steroids.

One thing about gestalt– they can go through more encounters without resting, faster, which means they gain exp quicker.
Don't do a rouge/assassin (abilities of the same type don't stack).
Don't do a rouge/ninja either
Do a UA sneak attack fighter/ninja

You lose 2 skillpoints per lvl (for a total of 6+int), but get a good fort save, d10 hps, all martial weapons and armor, and good bab. Smart trade in gestalt.



Fighter
Some fighters prefer stealth and cunning over martial skill. This variant can also be combined with the thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) variant.

Gain:Sneak attack (as rogue).

Lose:Bonus feats.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter

[JaronK]

Would a rogue and an assassin's sneak attacks stack, or overlap?

Overlap. If you want stacking sneak attack, you'll need something else. Rogue//Scout or Rogue//Ninja will work, because it gives you two different but similar abilities. Not that those are great classes, because of other issues, namely alot of overlap (skill points, HD, and BAB are the same), but it's a start. To make it a lot better, try CA Ninja//Rokugan Ninja. Same names, but one gets Sneak Attack, while one gets Sudden Strike. One gives 3/4 BAB, one gives full BAB. One gives 6 skill points, one gives four. You get the idea. They're actually really fun classes to stack... I recently slapped together a Gestalt Ninja that was CA Ninja 20//Monk 4/Rokugan Ninja 8/Ninja Spy 8, and that absolutely rocked.


Classes that complement each other are really great, especially if they make up for crappy saves in the other. Fighter/barb may have a lot of feats, but rogue/barb gets better saves and skills. 'Course, you can always dip ftr for feats.

Okay, that's true. The best combos are often two classes of similar theme but very different implimentation. CA Ninja//Rokugan Ninja is a great example of this, as is Cloistered Cleric//Druid. Also, classes with lots of abilities that don't take actions are great in Gestalt. For example, Wizard//Sorcerer has the problem that almost all abilities of both classes, namely the spells, take an action to cast, so you can't really be both a Wizard and a Sorcerer at the same time. However, Druid//Monk is incredible, because you can pretty much all the time be Wild Shaped into something fierce while gaining great saves and Wis to AC, and often use long duration Druid combat buffs like Spikes and Shillelah while flurrying with your iterative unarmed attacks. The result is that unlike the previous example, you are behaving as both a monk and a druid simultaneously while gaining the benefits of both.

Note that Cloistered Cleric//Druid is something of a special case. While it may seem the same as Wizard//Sorcerer, it's very different. Divine Persistant Metamagic means you can have both Druid and Cleric buffs up all the time, and Wild Shape from the druid is helpful as well. As a result, you become an incredible healer, a decent skillmonkey (6 per level), and a great melee fighter.


Personally, I don't run my games with PrCs when we do gestalt, as it makes the characters more powerful than they already are, as they're essentially PrC's on steroids.

The problem with this is that some of the best classes in Gestalt (monk, druid) don't require PrCing out, while some flavorful classes that aren't too bad often do require PrCing (Sorcerer) and thus become a bit obsolete. All limiting PrCs tends to do is limit the flexibility of the players, and I find the best feature of Gestalt characters is their flexibility. After all, I think the point of Gestalt is to let players create exactly the character concept they want, which you normally can't do quite as well.


One thing about gestalt– they can go through more encounters without resting, faster, which means they gain exp quicker.

Quite true, though you're supposed to lower the CR of all monsters to compensate. That said, I like the speed thing.

JaronK

[Ramza00]

For the people who don't know the rokugan ninja is from the legend of the five rings, it is located here for free.

http://www.legendofthefiverings.com/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf

[MightyMuenster]

Wow... such quick replies. Thanks for all the help so far. One thing I should point out about my little group is that I'm the most familiar to D&D out of us all and I've only really been playing it for about a year (I've been more into SW d20 and the MURPG system before I was introduced to D&D) and two have never RP'd before. Power gaming isn't too much of an issue at this point.

[Turcano]

Note that Cloistered Cleric//Druid is something of a special case. While it may seem the same as Wizard//Sorcerer, it's very different. Divine Persistant Metamagic means you can have both Druid and Cleric buffs up all the time, and Wild Shape from the druid is helpful as well. As a result, you become an incredible healer, a decent skillmonkey (6 per level), and a great melee fighter.

A similar combination is archivist//wizard; when people recommend the sorcerer//wizard build, they mistakenly think that it's like this. You get d6 hit dice (not as good as d8, but it's still an improvment), good Fort and Will saves, 4+Int skill points (for an Int-based caster, remember), access to more than two non-overlapping spell lists (one of the major weaknesses of the sorcerer//wizard is that they use the same list), two bonus feats (three if your DM is nice and lets you substitute one of your Scribe Scrolls), dark knowledge and lore goodness, and most importantly, SAD (which counters the other major weakness of sorcerer//wizard). Add a two-level dip of geometer on the wizard side and see how many spells you can cram into a blessed book. It's almost like a cloistered cleric//wizard, except you trade domain slots and turn undead for SAD and the potential to learn every divine spell in the game on top of every wizard spell.

[SpiderBrigade]

Personally I would love the flavor of Archivist//Wizard, and it does have a lot of strenghts with the INT synergy...but you do still have the problem of action limits. You can't be casting from both at once. In a group with a monk//druid or even a fighter//rogue, the fact that you can cast Mass Heal or Time Stop is somewhat less impressive.

On the other hand, you're even more Batman than a wizard normally is, so if you can plan, you should be unstoppable. If there's a cleric in the party, make sure he takes Scribe Scroll, so you really CAN know every single cleric spell there is.

[Turcano]

Personally I would love the flavor of Archivist//Wizard, and it does have a lot of strenghts with the INT synergy...but you do still have the problem of action limits. You can't be casting from both at once. In a group with a monk//druid or even a fighter//rogue, the fact that you can cast Mass Heal or Time Stop is somewhat less impressive.

You'd have the same problem with any dual-caster gestalt, which can be rectified somewhat with Quicken Spell in any case.


On the other hand, you're even more Batman than a wizard normally is, so if you can plan, you should be unstoppable. If there's a cleric in the party, make sure he takes Scribe Scroll, so you really CAN know every single cleric spell there is.

Archivists get cleric spells (and only cleric spells) as they level, so it's better to put priority on getting spells from other classes, like the druid, paladin, and any other divine casters in the campaign.

Also, I forgot to mention that if you still want to use Divine Metamagic cheese, a one-level dip in sacred exorcist is all you really need.

[Bears With Lasers]

Archivists make for great gish-y gestalts. Get buffs from other lists--like Holy Sword from the Paladin list, say. +5 Holy weapon at level 7, anyone?

[JaronK]

If there's a cleric in the party, make sure he takes Scribe Scroll, so you really CAN know every single cleric spell there is.

Not necessary. Check the rules for making items. No one person needs all the requirements. As long as the cleric is willing to work with the Archivist, the Archivist can make the scroll using scribe scroll while the cleric provides the spell requirement for it.

And yes, Wizard//Archivist is good, though defensively very weak. However, once you PrC into Sacred Exocist for a level, you've got Divine Metmagic on your side to make the Archivist spells last a while, thus dodging part of the problem (Persistant Lesser Mass Vigor to cover healing for the party). This fits with what I said earlier about how having two classes with similar themes but radically different mechanics can be good.

However, you can do much better than Wizard//Archivist. Artificer//Archivist, to be precise. Artificer can make magic items (*cough* scrolls) without actually knowing the spells in question, and you can see where that's going to lead (namely, they can make divine versions of every spell in the game... suddenly the Archivist is the Everything-ist). They also have no problems with spell failure, access to all Artificer cheese (with a bit of DMM thrown in when you pop into Exorcist), and generally speaking really ARE batman. You even get the custom gadgets. Though this build lacks the insane flexibility on the fly of the gold standard gestalt build (Monk 1/Cloistered Cleric 19//Druid 20) and the ability to fill all party roles of the same, it makes up for it in the ability to do absolutely anything, given some prep time (including persistant shapechange, at high level, and can imagine the hilarity that leads to). All this (and there's more if you're good at playing those classes) is why Artificer//Archivist with a dip into Sacred Exorcist is the second place contender for best gestalt build, with Wizard//Archivist looking on from a distance and wondering how the hell he *did* that. If you really want to lay the smack down, make him a gnome, PrC 5 levels into Shadowcraft Mage (cause silent image is nicely located in the Gnome domain!), and rock out.

A few other nice builds, though not nearly as strong as the two rulers of the pack:

Beguiler//Archivist: Lots of skills, great stat synnergy, casting in light armour, the works. You can spontaneously cast a wide range of utility spells, then bust out the memorized specific spells when you need them.

Beguiler//Rogue: Swift action feinting, useful spells for the rogue role, great synnergy. By itself this is fun and useful, but when you multiclass a bit (say... three levels of swashbuckler, five levels of shadowcraft mage, three levels of scarlet corsair, one of mindbender, three of sea witch, and one of assassin... caster progression increase levels coming from the Beguiler side of course), you can become one hell of a skillmonkey gish pirate, and you've got the awesome flexibility of the shadowcraft mage on your side.

Anyway, the basic idea behind how to make a strong build in Gestalt:

1: MAD is not your friend. It must be avoided at all costs. Notice how all the good builds A) have full progression casting somewhere and B) use that stat for other things too. You should be able to pump one or two stats and be solid. If your build requires 4-5 stats, you've probably messed up somewhere... and don't forget con! You'll be fighting tougher monsters in Gestalt and you have the same HD as normal, most likely, so you need a few extra hitpoints.

2: Classes with similar archtypes but different implimentations, using similar stat usage, are good. In the case of things like Beguiler//Archivist, Druid//Monk, and Druid//Cloistered Cleric, a feat that helps one side likely helps the other. Often a special ability of one (such as Turn Undead, which powers DMM, or Wild Shape) can help the other side (such as druid casting, or monk unarmed combat) and this leads to nice stacking and synnergy.

3: If both sides of your gestalt have the same HD, BAB, and saves, you're missing out. Check to see if there's a varient class that is different. For example, Cleric//Druid is good, but all those things are the same. There's a Cleric varient called Cloistered Cleric that drops to 1/2 BAB and d6 HD, gaining skillpoints and a free domain in trade... so Cloistered Cleric//Druid is strictly better.

4: Often it can be best to chose a primary class, then pick other classes to support it. For example, let's say I want to be a necromancer. I'll take Dread Necromancer 20 on one side. Now, Dread Necros often like to tank, but they have d6 HD and .5 BAB with good will saves, so I'll want to work on that, and they're charisma based, using a lot of save or die spells. Also, he likes having access to outsider corpses, and can make touch attacks for negative energy damage. So, I want classes with good BAB and big HD, good fort saves, and charisma synergy, preferably that help me land my nasty spells. Let's say... Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4/Cobra Strike Monk 4/Arcane Duelist 2/Wizard (Necromancer) 1/Nar Daemonbinder 6. What did I just get? Well, Charisma to AC twice (from different, and thus stacking, sources), Charisma to saves, Charisma to saves vs. spells, and another charisma casting class with rapid spell progression that summons outsiders and has special abilities related to controlling and containing them. Anyone who gets near me now has -4 to saves from Hexblade and Paladin of Tyranny (yay for that dark companion PHBII class feature exchange!), and an additional -2 if I land the Hexblade's Curse, all of which stack with my fear aura shaking people (for -2). That's -6 to saves just for getting in range of my touch attacks, which I can flurry with for added insult to injury, and I can bring it up to -8 with a curse. Also, I now have through the roof saves, evasion, and mettle, because hey, at this point, why not.

Some GMs, seeing the above, may say "ah hah! That's why we ban multiclassing and PrCs in gestalt!" However, that build, while very thematic and cool and fun to play, and pretty darn strong, still gets its butt handed to it by a certain persistant spelled giant legendary ape wielding a spiked shilleleghed quarterstaff with a strength permanently somewhere approaching the tripple digets.

Man, at some point I just need to write a Gestalt Handbook.

JaronK

[Bears With Lasers]

Artificer//Archivist pretty much wins the crap out of D&D. So much cheese. So much.

[Fax Celestis]

Duskblade//Spellthief is entertaining.

[NEO|Phyte]

I'm well aware that its not near the top of the awesomeness list, but how would you people rate a Sorc/Archmage//Wilder/Pyrokineticist?

[Fax Celestis]

You going to psygish it up? It sounds solid, in that it covers all its bases. I would venture, though, that if you're going to go gish-like, then trade Pyro for Slayer.

[Ramza00]

I'm well aware that its not near the top of the awesomeness list, but how would you people rate a Sorc/Archmage//Wilder/Pyrokineticist?

Get rid of Pyrokineticist if you have complete mage. Its abilities besides the fire whip, weapon afire, and greater weapon afire are just too weak. Get a reserve feat instead. Heat Death and Conflagration just have too low dcs and Nimbus just does too low of damage.

If you want a fire pyrokineticist be a hellfire warlock and see if your DM will allow you to do a fire bloodline.

If you must be an elemental type character in gestalt. A elemental savant fire/silver pryomancer(eberron's five nations) is decent (make sure to get the metamagic feat from sandstorm that makes half your fire damage hurt fire immune). Or an elemental savant cold/Winterhaunt of Iborighu.

[JaronK]

I'm unfamiliar with psionics, and will only say that Wilder should be Charisma based for that to work.

Okay, next little lecture: traps to avoid when making characters:

1) MAD is still BAD! Wizard/Sorcerer? No. Paladin/Wizard? No. One class that really gets stronger in Gestalt because of this is... wait for it... Druid. Because they remove the need for strength and dex. Yes, the lowly, normally so very underpowered Druid gets a nice healthy strength boost. :smallsmile:

2) If both sides of the progression give the same thing, it overlaps. This is a huge deal for psionics, which all add to a general power point pool... the result is that you should never gestalt two psionic classes together. Psion//Wilder as such wins the prize for lamest gestalt ever. Rogue//Assassin is trying hard for the same prize. With that said, similar abilities are okay, so Fighter//Psychic Warrior is okay (they both give bonus feats, but they have different restrictions so they're different abilities), as is Rogue//Ninja.

3) You can't have two PrCs at the same level. It's spelled out in black and white in the rules, but some people seem to miss this. No, you cannot have a Fighter 10/Warhulk 10//Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker 10. Nice try. That said, War Hulk does rock in Gestalt like no other melee class.

4) Unearthed Arcana itself suggests having two very different classes together to make up for weaknesses... and this is not a good plan. For example, Barbarian//Bard. Some cool flavor here, but since you only have the stats, actions, and feats of a normal character, this just won't work well. Sure, you've got good saves and HP, but your feats from one class will almost assuredly not help the other (power attack isn't going to help out your bard side... bardic music feats won't help out your barbarian side). Your stats are all over the place (Barbarians need Strength, Con, and Dex to rock out. Bards need Dex, Int, and Charisma). You can't cast spells (or likely use bardic music, ask your DM to be sure) while raging in combat either. You have made yourself a scitzophrenic character that can't be both of his parts at once, and it hurts.

JaronK

[NEO|Phyte]

@fax
Not gish so much as OMGFIRE. OMGFIRE pointed to the pyrokineticist, the pyro runs its DCs off of CHA, so I synergized the hell out of it. Mix of blasty and controlly spells, buffs on the psionic side.

Its a shame the campaign died near the beginning due to harddrive failure on the GM's part. :<

@ramza
Don't have CMage, I'll keep your suggestions in mind if I go for another elementalist in the future

@Jaronk
Yeah the Wilder is CHA-based

[Viscount Einstrauss]

In my gestalt games, there aren't any normal prestige classes. You instead draft, with my help, a balanced super class that's quite a bit more powerful then any ordinary prestige class. Utilizing this super class takes up BOTH gestalt slots. Often, though, this is a good deal since the complete customization offered by making it up lets you personalize a character to your particular tactics and tastes. Like in mine, the first level of the gestalt half-dragon's super prestige class let him sprout the dragon wings that are ordinarily barred from medium-sized base creatures, because the player really wanted wings without being a large creature. Or my DM Avatar, who's special class gives him crazy special abilities for dual-wielding daggers, something that's ordinarily a mediocre choice in metagaming.

Be SURE that whatever you pick the first time you make one of these with one of your players, you make that the staple by which you design the others, power-wise. Yes, there's the age-old argument here about how spellcasters will always overpower melee late-game. Here is your one, best chance to reverse this edict.

Also, only allow two of these per character, total- one available around level 5-7, and the other not allowed until epic levels. Both at 10 levels each, of course, and with the epic one substantially more awesome.

[Talanic]

It was mentioned before, but you MUST use fractional BAB if you want to avoid ubercheese.

Example character:
Level 1: Barb 1 Wiz 1
Levels 2 - 20 Wiz/Sorc

Without using fractional BAB, this character gets full spell progression as wizard, full spell progression as sorcerer, and full BAB to boot. The level of barbarian at the start gives the first point of BAB, and since wizard and sorcerer both are .5 BAB and the levels are now staggered, the character gains +1 BAB per level.

Instead, use fractional BAB, which means that the character gains .5, .75, or 1 BAB per level--always round down.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

How do you figure? If I'm calculating that right, that actually only gets the character a +11 BAB by level 20.

[Ryuuk]

It has to do with the tables. Wizards and Sorcerers only get an increase in Bab at even levels, by taking wizard 1 at first level and sorcerer 1 at second level, you would get an increase in attack bonus at every level.

It's odd, I usually DM gestalt groups, but no one's ever actually multiclassed on one side. Probably because we've never gone above level 4 but still.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Really? Odd. I've always calculated based on the highest BAB progression of the two, not the order in which they level. Which would be how I came up with a +11 by level 20 :D

I guess there might be a similar problem with saves, but I do them the same way as the BAB. I look for good save/bad save, not the literal interpretation of the number for the level. Literal interpretations are often overpowering with gestalts anyway.

[JaronK]

He's right. With fractional BAB, it works out correctly... you get full BAB at first level, and half BAB every level after that, giving you a total of 10 BAB.

Without, at first level you gain +1 BAB from Barbarian. At second level you get +1 BAB from wizard. At third level, +1 BAB from sorcerer. At fourth, +1 from Wizard, and it continues to alternate, all the way up to full BAB at level 20 with full wizard casting and 19 levels of sorcerer casting (20 if you're a kobold).

Thus, fractional BAB should ALWAYS be used with gestalt... and honestly, I use it in all other games too, because it just makes sense.

JaronK

[Jack_Simth]

Really? Odd. I've always calculated based on the highest BAB progression of the two, not the order in which they level. Which would be how I came up with a +11 by level 20 :D
Which is, incidentally, almost identical in method to fractonal BAB....

[JaronK]

Exactly. Fractional BAB just means do your rounding after summing the classes involved, instead of before. Before leads to silly rounding errors, such as the Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 19//Wizard 20 silliness, or in the other direction the Cleric 1/Rogue 1/Bard 1/Ninja 1/Spellthief 1 with 0 BAB thing, which also doesn't make any sense.

It's a must in Gestalt and a good idea in normal games, too.

JaronK

[Turcano]

And yes, Wizard//Archivist is good, though defensively very weak. However, once you PrC into Sacred Exocist for a level, you've got Divine Metmagic on your side to make the Archivist spells last a while, thus dodging part of the problem (Persistant Lesser Mass Vigor to cover healing for the party). This fits with what I said earlier about how having two classes with similar themes but radically different mechanics can be good.

The problems with defense can be fixed by multiclassing into I7V, but that goes without saying.


However, you can do much better than Wizard//Archivist. Artificer//Archivist, to be precise. Artificer can make magic items (*cough* scrolls) without actually knowing the spells in question, and you can see where that's going to lead (namely, they can make divine versions of every spell in the game... suddenly the Archivist is the Everything-ist). They also have no problems with spell failure, access to all Artificer cheese (with a bit of DMM thrown in when you pop into Exorcist), and generally speaking really ARE batman. You even get the custom gadgets.

I had forgotten about the artificer. Yikes.

[Kurobara]

It was mentioned before, but you MUST use fractional BAB if you want to avoid ubercheese.

Example character:
Level 1: Barb 1 Wiz 1
Levels 2 - 20 Wiz/Sorc

Without using fractional BAB, this character gets full spell progression as wizard, full spell progression as sorcerer, and full BAB to boot. The level of barbarian at the start gives the first point of BAB, and since wizard and sorcerer both are .5 BAB and the levels are now staggered, the character gains +1 BAB per level.

Instead, use fractional BAB, which means that the character gains .5, .75, or 1 BAB per level--always round down.

Keep in mind that you use the best progression on BAB and saves, not the nest value at each level


Base Attack Bonus

Choose the better progression from the two classes.

Base Saving Throw Bonuses

For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.
(emphasis mine)

So for the Wiz//Sorc levels, even without fractional saves you're only getting +1 BAB every two levels.

Not trying to make a case against fractional BAB and saves, because they really do make things easier/better/what have you with multiclassing and such. Just pointing out that you really don't get a full BAB the whole way up in your example.

[fireinthedust]

QUESTIONS THAT PLAGUE ME about Gestalt:

1) What is MAD?

2) Why are PrCs not allowed to be done at the same time? Technically they're made to be equivalent to a Core class at the same level; sure, strategy wise they give different options that can be useful, but "technically" they're supposed to be at the same CR). Why else would some PrCs make spellcasters/manifesters skip a level for casting in exchange for their ability?

5) Psionic Warrior/Fighter: both have wicked Feat progression as their special abilities (identical feat prgress for both classes). If I was a fighter/ranger I'd get the special attack forms and fighter bonus feats. If I combined PW and FTR feats, I'd come out with less power than any other Gestalt (heck, I might as well play a Psion/Fighter, at that point). Would it break even a gestalt game to have that many feats available (granted, they're all from very specific lists; I may as well just use one on combat and the other on psionics feats)?

6) Gestalt and Monster races: If I want to play a drow or bugbear (something with racial levels and a level adjustment) how do I rule that for Gestalt? Because CRs are lower by 1 or more, should I get more PC class levels? OR if I'm an ECL 8 monster, should I also Gestalt in abilities from an 8th level class as my second half? (so an Illithid 8//Psion 8)

[fireinthedust]

7) Also: what about Monster Templates? Like if my Rogue is bitten by a vampire, could I be a Fighter2//rogue 10 in a 10th level Gestalt game?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

1.) Multiple Attribute Drain, I believe. Whatever the precise wording is, it means a class that needs high stats in more then one particular attribute to be effective.

2.) The reason is that Prestige Classes are, on the whole, more powerful then ordinary classes. Taking two at the same time can suddenly make a character insanely powerful, and will mostly only be done by those looking to exploit game mechanics anyway.

3.) The answer lies in the fact that most of those prestige classes suck :)

4.) I figured I'd whistle a sea chantey.

5.) Fighter meshes well with any non-combat class. Psionic warrior, however, isn't really a non-combat class. I'd suggest staying clear of it, as tons of feats mean nothing if your core stats can't take advantage of them in the first place. Likewise, ranger/fighter doesn't mesh well because of the single save. It's just a ranger with more feats.

6.) I just always give my PC's free LA to start with. But this can unbalance a game and I recommend not doing it, despite the fact that I always do it. I'd say half the LA and HD. I have no idea what the actual rules say about this.

7.) See above.

Hope I was of some help.

[Ramza00]

QUESTIONS THAT PLAGUE ME about Gestalt:

1) What is MAD?
Multiple Attribute Dependency. See Monk (Wis, Dex, Str, Con) or Paladin (Cha, Str, Con)


2) Why are PrCs not allowed to be done at the same time? Technically they're made to be equivalent to a Core class at the same level; sure, strategy wise they give different options that can be useful, but "technically" they're supposed to be at the same CR). Why else would some PrCs make spellcasters/manifesters skip a level for casting in exchange for their ability?
Most prcs (if they are balanced) allow you to "specialize in something," for the extra power you give up something. Being able to take two prcs that specialize in something, yet are different enough that they cover up each other weaknesses is a major power boost.

And if the prc isn't balanced but slightly more powerful to majorly more powerful it gets insane.


5) Psionic Warrior/Fighter: both have wicked Feat progression as their special abilities (identical feat prgress for both classes). If I was a fighter/ranger I'd get the special attack forms and fighter bonus feats. If I combined PW and FTR feats, I'd come out with less power than any other Gestalt (heck, I might as well play a Psion/Fighter, at that point). Would it break even a gestalt game to have that many feats available (granted, they're all from very specific lists; I may as well just use one on combat and the other on psionics feats)?
Simple Answer almost always no, long answer it may be good for the first four or five lvls for a tripper build/aoo or something but only for the first few lvls.

6) Gestalt and Monster races: If I want to play a drow or bugbear (something with racial levels and a level adjustment) how do I rule that for Gestalt? Because CRs are lower by 1 or more, should I get more PC class levels? OR if I'm an ECL 8 monster, should I also Gestalt in abilities from an 8th level class as my second half? (so an Illithid 8//Psion 8)
Depends on the DM for there are two schools of thought (actually more than two but there are two main ones) some say it goes on only one side, some say two sides.

[JaronK]

QUESTIONS THAT PLAGUE ME about Gestalt:

1) What is MAD?

Multiple Attribute Disorder. If you're playing a Wizard, you really only need Int. Just put your highest roll (or the most points) into intelligence, and wear gear the boosts intelligence, and you're good to go. This makes you quite strong. Also, if you get a few bad stat rolls, no worries. Let's say you rolled 18, 14, 14, 9, 8, 6. Just throw that 8 into Strength and the 6 into Charisma, and maybe that 9 can go into Wisdom, and your character will still function just fine. Wizards, thus, don't suffer from MAD.

Now let's say you're playing a Paladin, and you get that same roll. Well, you can put the 18 into strength and the 14s into con and Wis... but that means your divine grace and lay on hands are useless, because your charisma mod is negative, and you take an AC plenalty due to low dex. You're also dumb as a rock. What was a fine roll for a Wizard is terrible for a Paladin, because Paladins suffer from MAD... they need too many stats to function.

This is one reason why the Favored Soul is so much weaker than the Cleric... the Cleric only needs Wisdom to cast, but the FS needs Wisdom and Charisma.

This only gets made worse in Gestalt. A Paladin//Wizard, for example, can only dump dex without losing class features or melee ability (and even Dex hurts, as they're a tank and need AC). A Favored Soul//Wizard would have similar issues. Meanwhile, the Artificer//Archivist, who only needs Int, has no such problem.


2) Why are PrCs not allowed to be done at the same time? Technically they're made to be equivalent to a Core class at the same level; sure, strategy wise they give different options that can be useful, but "technically" they're supposed to be at the same CR). Why else would some PrCs make spellcasters/manifesters skip a level for casting in exchange for their ability?

Honestly, I'm not totally sure. But them's the rules. I could see a few strong combos that become available if you double up the PrCs (such as War Hulk//Frenzied Berserker), but when it comes down to it, that's just what they chose to do.


5) Psionic Warrior/Fighter: both have wicked Feat progression as their special abilities (identical feat prgress for both classes). If I was a fighter/ranger I'd get the special attack forms and fighter bonus feats. If I combined PW and FTR feats, I'd come out with less power than any other Gestalt (heck, I might as well play a Psion/Fighter, at that point). Would it break even a gestalt game to have that many feats available (granted, they're all from very specific lists; I may as well just use one on combat and the other on psionics feats)?

Actually, Psionic Warrior doesn't have the same feat progression as the Fighter. They both get it at levels 1 and 2, but after that the Fighter gets them at all even levels, while PW gets them every third level. Also, PWs get Psionic or Fighter feats, while Fighters can only chose Fighter bonus feats, so they're actually different (if similarly named) abilities. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here, but if you're asking if you can go Fighter//PsiWar and get feats on both sides, you already can, since they give different things. At least, that's how I'd rule it as a DM... your milage may vary. And no, it's not overpowered, since you're pure melee and not even from Book of Nine Swords.


6) Gestalt and Monster races: If I want to play a drow or bugbear (something with racial levels and a level adjustment) how do I rule that for Gestalt? Because CRs are lower by 1 or more, should I get more PC class levels? OR if I'm an ECL 8 monster, should I also Gestalt in abilities from an 8th level class as my second half? (so an Illithid 8//Psion 8)

Not defined in the Gestalt rules. Most DMs will play that you can take class levels along with racial HD, but Level Adjust is as normal (so you get nothing for those levels). The first thing is somewhat obvious, but the second... well you've got a problem there. Either you allow LA on one side and classes on the other, which is overpowered, or you say LA takes up both sides, which is seriously underpowered. I do the second, but allow LA paydown (from Unearthed Arcana) which I find is a healthy balance between the two.

JaronK

[Jack_Simth]

1) MAD: Multiple Attribute Dependancy. A pure-classed Paladin has a fairly bad case of MAD; he needs Charisma (runs most his class abilities) Strength and Constitution (he is a front-liner, after all) and at least some Wisdom for spellcasting. All he can really lose is Intelligence and Dexterity (four needed stats). A spell-focused Cleric needs Wisdom (spellcasting) and Con (everyone needs con), but not much Dex (can cast in heavy armor - and heavy armor limits dex to AC), Charisma (turning isn't that great, and it's about the only ability a cleric has that relies on Charisma), Intelligence (that's the Wizard's job), or Strength (no need to mix it up in melee) and doesn't have much of a case of MAD (only 2 improtant attributes). Due to Wildshape, a Druid likewise only needs Wisdom and Constitution.

2) They're supposed to be equivalent, yes, but they are most assureadly not in a great many instances. Additionally, with Gestalt, many of the drawbacks of PrC's (especially non-spellcasting advancing levels) can be dealt with by taking a spellcasting level of a PrC on the other side at that level. If you've got a PrC on one side that advances your spellcasting at every even level, and a PrC on the other side that advances your spellcasting at every odd level, well, I'm sure you get the idea.

5) Not particularly broken a combo, no. The Psion//Fighter will probably do better (as long as he picks a side to focus on to cut down on the MAD).

6) Unspecified in Gestalt rules. Which means it's up to the DM's sense of balance/whimsy

7) See 6.

[JaronK]

7) Also: what about Monster Templates? Like if my Rogue is bitten by a vampire, could I be a Fighter2//rogue 10 in a 10th level Gestalt game?

Same question as the LA question, answered above.

But to give a more thorough answer:

If you allow LA to only touch one side, the Gestalt becomes a lot stronger. Notice that a Fighter 4//Barbarian 4 is not nearly as strong as a Fighter 8. It has less hitpoints (4d12+4*con as opposed to 8d10+8*con), half the BAB, fewer feats, etc. Clearly, it's not as strong as an 8th level character.

Now compare Fighter 4//Half Dragon 3/Barbarian 1 to Half Dragon Fighter 5. The gestalt is almost identical, being down only 1 BAB and a few hitpoints. Thus, that fighter is about as good as something twice it's ECL. That's a huge power jump. Gestalts aren't supposed to be as good as something that's from a normal game but twice the level... but this guy is. So, clearly this is overpowered.

However, if LA takes both sides, you lose even more than in a normal game, because Gestalt levels are worth more. Since LAs are already a little weak, this just makes things worse.

This is why I take the second option, but allow LA paydown, which lets you slowly get rid of your level adjust over time, and balances the whole thing out, as long as your LA isn't too big.

JaronK

[fireinthedust]

Hmm... it seems I can't count... I blame the quick reply window size, and an awful head cold.

more questions: let's see if this gets your brains going.

The Magic alternatives: would the Recharge magic varient in UA balance out spellcasters at low level in a gestalt game vs. Tanks like a Paladin//Fighter? Like a Sor/Wiz 4 and a Barb1/Halfdragon3//Ftr 4?
Would that be a sufficient balance to allow LA to be eaten up only on one class' side as mentioned above?

My argument for the LA on one side would be that the LA was designed with single-class play in mind; thus the abilities are meant to replace the class abilities ((although, come to think of it, the LA eliminates Bab and save progression, and skills, and feat-gain in some cases)).

Alternative twist: Maybe a 2-to-1 ratio for levels with certain LAs: like a Barb2/Half-dragon2(counts as 4)//fighter6?

[JaronK]

Hmm... it seems I can't count... I blame the quick reply window size, and an awful head cold.

more questions: let's see if this gets your brains going.

The Magic alternatives: would the Recharge magic varient in UA balance out spellcasters at low level in a gestalt game vs. Tanks like a Paladin//Fighter? Like a Sor/Wiz 4 and a Barb1/Halfdragon3//Ftr 4?
Would that be a sufficient balance to allow LA to be eaten up only on one class' side as mentioned above?

No. Just no. Recharge Magic would have spellcasters, who already are very strong with gestalt, rocking it. Just because Sorcerer//Wizard stinks doesn't mean Archivist//Artificer or Beguiler//Archivist does. It would just mean that LAs are really strong and so are full casters. Power level would be really hard to deal with in such a game.


My argument for the LA on one side would be that the LA was designed with single-class play in mind; thus the abilities are meant to replace the class abilities ((although, come to think of it, the LA eliminates Bab and save progression, and skills, and feat-gain in some cases)).

Usually in gestalt you're losing something by mushing the classes together. A Fighter//Scout, for example, loses d6 HD from the scout (subsumed by the fighter's D10), .75BAB from the Scout, .33 fort save from the Scout, 2 skill points per level from the fighter, etc. Basically, all that stuff that's overwritten is lost. However, a level of Halfdragon//Fighter loses nothing on either side, since the Half Dragon levels are normally skipped entirely. Thus, it's a huge power jump, and probably overpowered.


Alternative twist: Maybe a 2-to-1 ratio for levels with certain LAs: like a Barb2/Half-dragon2(counts as 4)//fighter6?

Too complex. Why bother? Just play with LA Paydown from the same book as Gestalt and be done with it.

JaronK

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Wait, sorcerer/wizard sucks? How? That's insanely powerful when I see it my gestalt games. The player assigns their favorite cheese spells to their sorcerer levels, then gets all the utility spells on the wizard. They're like endless arcane dynamos.

I DO count the full spell progression on each, however. Seperately, but they can still cast their full allotment of sorcerer spells along with their wizard spells. I hear that this is abnormal.

[Ramza00]

Wait, sorcerer/wizard sucks? How? That's insanely powerful when I see it my gestalt games. The player assigns their favorite cheese spells to their sorcerer levels, then gets all the utility spells on the wizard. They're like endless arcane dynamos.

I DO count the full spell progression on each, however. Seperately, but they can still cast their full allotment of sorcerer spells along with their wizard spells. I hear that this is abnormal.

What lvls are your games? I can easily make several more powerful gestalt builds if you want me to show you.

[JaronK]

Wait, sorcerer/wizard sucks? How? That's insanely powerful when I see it my gestalt games. The player assigns their favorite cheese spells to their sorcerer levels, then gets all the utility spells on the wizard. They're like endless arcane dynamos.

I DO count the full spell progression on each, however. Seperately, but they can still cast their full allotment of sorcerer spells along with their wizard spells. I hear that this is abnormal.

That's not abnormal, that's how it works. And yes, they get a lot of spells. But honestly, the only benefit from Gestalt they get is more spells to cast... and especially at high levels, wizards tend to have plenty of spells. When they run out, they can just rope trick and wait to get more. If you're running out of spells all the time, you're probably being inefficient with your spell use (casting fireballs at everything that moves, for example).

But more spells is the only thing you gain over just being a Wizard... and you actually have downsides compared to the standard guy. Since you're now casting off both intelligence and charisma, your casting stat will be lower. A normal Wizard can just dump charisma and focus on Int (and maybe con... plus a little dex), but a Sorcerer//Wizard has one more stat he needs to keep as high as possible. The result is that both charisma and intelligence have to be a little lower than normal, resulting in lower save DCs. Thus, a Sorcerer//Wizard casts more spells than a pure Wizard, but his spells aren't as good.

And that's it. That's all he's gaining out of Gestalt. Most likely, the reason Sorc//Wizards are rocking in your games is simply that Wizard is already a powerful class. However, it's not any better than a normal Wizard.

Compare that to the Wizard//Beguiler, even. Now we're casting on one stat, so your DCs will be as good as a normal Wizard. You've also got just as many spells as a Sorcerer//Wizard, and while your spontaneous spells are predefined, they're off a pretty good list anyway, and anything that's missing can be cast with the Wizard side instead. You've gained better hit die (d6) and more skill points (4 more per level). You get free Silent Spell and Still Spell, plus the ability to feint in combat to raise save DCs. You get a bunch of other bonuses too. This is a clearly better class.

JaronK

[Turcano]

Wait, sorcerer/wizard sucks? How? That's insanely powerful when I see it my gestalt games. The player assigns their favorite cheese spells to their sorcerer levels, then gets all the utility spells on the wizard. They're like endless arcane dynamos.

I DO count the full spell progression on each, however. Seperately, but they can still cast their full allotment of sorcerer spells along with their wizard spells. I hear that this is abnormal.

As has been pointed out, the problems with sorcerer//wizard are:
Multiple Ability Dependency (you have to pump up both Int and Cha)
Redundant spell lists (you don't really need to cast over 100 spells of the same list)
Lack of improvment on sucky HD/BAB/Fort and Ref saves
Lack of added class features (sorcerers get a big fat goose egg in that regard)It's not so much that a sorcerer//wizards aren't better than either of the two classes; it's that other combinations are a whole lot better.

Edit: Ack, ninja'ed.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Oh, I see. I guess the guy just looked amazing at the level 5 game we played that ended before he reached level 7.

Thankfully, this stops me from including a BBEG next level that would have been a sorcerer/wizard//super class. But perhaps I can be helped with developing this guy-

He's a spellcaster with a very unique super class. Basically, he uses a very strange arcane variation of the leadership feat to have an army of familiars, at the HD level of whatever the leadership feat would ordinarily allow for followers' levels. He can also have a magical beast cohort that grows using the familiar enhancement block (but limited by the level of the master), at any regular HD that fits within his limits and is within one step of his alignment. He has some spell progression, but only with the summon spells, though the levels stack with any arcane spellcasting classes he has to grant him higher overall spellcasting levels.

There's a player that's going to get this super class shortly after defeating the NPC one. He's a bard/sorcerer, which seems like a good choice for this build. But what should the NPC be? Mind you, he's of the evil persuasion, and probably leans towards lawful.

[Toliudar]

Without fractional BAB, the Barbarian 1/Wizard 19 || Sorcerer 20 has a +1 to BAB on one side of the gestalt divide or the other at each level increase. Therefore, BAB +20. As stated, fractional saves and BAB in gestalt is a Very Good Idea.

[The_Snark]

Without fractional BAB, the Barbarian 1/Wizard 19 || Sorcerer 20 has a +1 to BAB on one side of the gestalt divide or the other at each level increase. Therefore, BAB +20. As stated, fractional saves and BAB in gestalt is a Very Good Idea.

As has been pointed out, this doesn't actually work. From the SRD:


Base Attack Bonus
Choose the better progression from the two classes.

I'm pretty sure this means that you don't pick from the better table at every level, you just pick the one that will be better in the end; otherwise, saves get ridiculous with almost every combination. Fractional BAB is still a good idea, I think, but it isn't that vital.

[fireinthedust]

BBEG: I'd say go with a Sorcerer/Wizard. I know there's a lot here dumping on that, but that's an Optimal PC pov. Remember, the guy is going to have a powerful cohort and several familiars, not to mention creature minions to do the combat part for him. If his role is as a spellcaster, you should be fine for that role. Minions, especially if he's got lots of summoning, are still viable.

Weaknesses of Gestalt to exploit in a plot:

I guess heavily armoured creatures are going to be tough; a bulette will be harder than a medusa or basilisk, as the PCs won't have higher BAB than normal (so no more chance to hit). Still, they could have more buffs than normal.

Any ideas?

[Captain van der Decken]

How about gestalt rogue//sneak attack fighter? Double sneak attack isn't half bad. I have a feeling you can't get duplicate abilities each level or whatever, so go SA Fighter 1//Anything but rogue 1 then SA Fighter 19//rogue 19. Staggers the sneak attack. Would that work, or am I missing something?

[Turcano]

Oh, I see. I guess the guy just looked amazing at the level 5 game we played that ended before he reached level 7.

Thankfully, this stops me from including a BBEG next level that would have been a sorcerer/wizard//super class.

Good, because that would be horrible, for the same reason that a sorcerer/wizard in a normal game is horrible.


Without fractional BAB, the Barbarian 1/Wizard 19 || Sorcerer 20 has a +1 to BAB on one side of the gestalt divide or the other at each level increase. Therefore, BAB +20. As stated, fractional saves and BAB in gestalt is a Very Good Idea.

By that logic, does that mean I can make a rogue 1/fighter 19//cleric 20 and have 8 bonus skill points every level? :smalltongue:


I guess heavily armoured creatures are going to be tough; a bulette will be harder than a medusa or basilisk, as the PCs won't have higher BAB than normal (so no more chance to hit). Still, they could have more buffs than normal.

The only people who won't have a higher BAB than normal will most likely be playing melee classes and couldn't have a higher BAB anyway.


How about gestalt rogue//sneak attack fighter? Double sneak attack isn't half bad. I have a feeling you can't get duplicate abilities each level or whatever, so go SA Fighter 1//Anything but rogue 1 then SA Fighter 19//rogue 19. Staggers the sneak attack. Would that work, or am I missing something?

Nope, they still overlap. It's like barbarian and rogue for uncanny dodge.

[fireinthedust]

The only people who won't have a higher BAB than normal will most likely be playing melee classes and couldn't have a higher BAB anyway.

Exactly! So anything that would challenge the PC fighter's BAB would still be ok. Moreso, as the Mad effect of any other classes would lower their total attack bonus.

Spellcaster's would also be even more challenged by Spell Resistant monsters; their primary attributes being spread out more, these suckers would be even harder to get.

I think also things they wouldn't expect (like a room suddenly filling up with water, damage reduction creatures, riddles, puzzle traps, etc.) should be fine.

The Rogue//SA fighter wouldnt work. You'd have to pick the SA rate that goes up the fastest, which would be rogue. You'd be more optimal with a fighter//rogue.

[Bears With Lasers]

Uh, every time you get sneak attack, it says "+1d6". This is added to your existing sneak attack. SA Fighter//Rogue would work. It'd hardly be optimal after the first while, but it'd work.

[Ramza00]

How about gestalt rogue//sneak attack fighter? Double sneak attack isn't half bad. I have a feeling you can't get duplicate abilities each level or whatever, so go SA Fighter 1//Anything but rogue 1 then SA Fighter 19//rogue 19. Staggers the sneak attack. Would that work, or am I missing something?
Doesn't work via the rules and it has already been pointed out. Now a Sneak Attack Fighter 20, Ninja 20 works but that is because Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike are different even if they are similar.

[Dr. Weasel]

So would bladesinger be removed from gestalt based on its dual-nature, or would it be a legitimate PrC? It seems taking it and alternating Rogue/Wizard on the other side would be pretty good, but by no means game-breaking (If anything, it would be on the weaker end).

[Ramza00]

So would bladesinger be removed from gestalt based on its dual-nature, or would it be a legitimate PrC? It seems taking it and alternating Rogue/Wizard on the other side would be pretty good, but by no means game-breaking (If anything, it would be on the weaker end).
That prc would fall under the "debatable" catergory and thus depends on your DM. I would have no problem allowing it, since and lets be honest a duskblade is more powerful and a duskblade/wizard is allowed in gestalt.

[Ramza00]

Considering the Bladesinger prc, I was trying to think of ways to "break it" and this is the best I got.

Since Bladesinger gives full bab during the lvls you take it, taking lvls of Feat Rogue or Psychic Warrior will allow you to incur a good number of bonus feats and don’t sacrifice BAB for your “gish.” During the lvls you lose spellcasting continue your wizard casting.

20 BAB, 19th lvl wizard Casting (Note at 20 you are taking 2 spellcasting lvls at the same time, you only get the benefits of one, you are taking one more lvl of Wizard for the Wizard Bonus Feat)

Good AC due to Int to AC, Greater Mage Armor, Abjurant Champion, and Combat Expertise.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/999/untitledhd4.jpg
A sample power-gamed build would be this. At first glance when I was making this build, I was rolling my eyes and such, but on recounting the number of feats it grants, 1 Monk, 1 Swashbuckler, 2 Fighter, 3 Feat Rogue, 3 Psychic Warrior=10 total, that is actually 1 less than a Full Fighter 20/Wizard 20 (I aint counting the wizard bonus feats since Wizard 20 actually grants 2 more). The difference between this build and the full fighter wizard build, is that you get a little more skillpoints, int to damage, int to ac, and very basic psychic warrior manifestation. In other words its extremely power gamed, but it isn’t that much more "insanely powerful"


Considering the other builds you can make in gestalt I would probably allow this build. I would be more worried about the people who are playing with the incantatrix, the cleric, druid, warblade etc and another powerful class on the other side, about "ruining" the game.


(Note our group doesn’t play with favored class rules, for we find them stupid since Prestige classes don’t count towards it and thus the don’t really limit power and just add another frustration for no good reason. Instead our DMs will be willing to say no to what they think is “excess” in flavor or powergaming.)

[fireinthedust]

Uh, every time you get sneak attack, it says "+1d6". This is added to your existing sneak attack. SA Fighter//Rogue would work. It'd hardly be optimal after the first while, but it'd work.

true, but that's with single classes. For gestalt it would be like stacking: if you're taking them both at the same time (SA fighter 20//rogue 20), rather than on one side of the gestalt, you'd either use one class' on one attack and the other's on another (not at the same time). It'd be like taking Two-Weapon Fighting or two classes that give a Wisdom bonus to AC; you couldn't take both.

Although a parrallel: If you have a Paladin 20//Cleric20, for Turn Undead: you'd use the higher Turn Undead rate, but could you stack the attempts per day? Or would you have Paladin attempts vs. Cleric attempts (with Sorcerer spells and Wizard spells)

I guess if you had a Psion//Psychic warrior you could put the Power Points together into one pool (they mention that somewhere in the XPH, at least for single-class multi-classing). You just can't spend more than your Psychic Warrior level on the PW manifestations, and more than your Psion level on Psion manifestations.

[Draz74]

As far as monster characters go: though there's no official rule here, I've seen a number of people agree that this seems to be the best:

Racial Hit Dice are just like hit dice from a class. They only count on one side of your classes.

Level Adjustments count on both of sides of your classes, but they are halved. A +2 LA becomes a +1 LA, because it's applying to both sides of your character.

If you have an odd-numbered level adjustment, there's not as much of a consensus about what to do with the leftover level. I guess, to be conservative, you should round the halved LA up.

So, for example, if I want to play a build that I think would be really fun (though probably not insanely powerful), a Nymph Favored Soul//Rogue who pumps her Charisma up as high as possible, it would work like this (assuming a game of, say, 15 ECL):

Divide Level Adjustment (+7) in two, and round up. My character has a +4 LA, so she will be a level 11 Gestalt character.

On one side (the Rogue side, of course, since Rogue levels and Fey hit dice are actually somewhat similar, and no one wants to lose caster levels), six levels will be racial hit dice (Fey).

On the other side, I can just be a normal 11th-level character.

So, Nymph Fey 6/Rogue 5//Favored Soul 11 would be a reasonable demonstration of how to make a monster Gestalt character. (5th-level spells from the Cleric list, with great save DCs; 4th-level spells from the Druid list, with moderate DCs; great Dex/Int/Wis/Cha bonuses; great skill points; saves absolutely through the ceiling; great AC ...)

[Viscount Einstrauss]

As DM, I like to wave a certain LA each game. Usually it's a +3, and if you choose something smaller, you can apply it towards a completely free bloodline of an appropriate size. It allows the player more customizable characters, something I love more then anything else about character building.

However, I also treat LA races differently then normal in these situations. At the start of the game, each player gets ONE, and only ONE, benefit from their LA. That can be any one stat increase, any one uncommon ability, skill, proficiency, or feat. Also, I completely ignore racial HD, outright removing it and any additional feats, skillpoints, saves and BAB it might have gained the player. Every level divisible by four, the player may choose another benefit from their race. At level 8, any LA 1 races get every benefit of their race. At level 16, any LA 2 races get all their benefits, and at level 24, LA 3 races are fully grown as well. Bloodlines, meanwhile, work exactly as they ordinarily do, with the single exception of never needing to put any levels into maintaining it so long as it's within their free LA.

Of course, I also throw devastating challenges at my PC's with alarming regularity to make up for this. They start running into CR 10+ by level 6 or so. Sure, I'm letting them power game. But I make them fight for it.

[Zincorium]

Gestalt is one of those things which is very open to house ruling, and while some of what our DM decided on in a previous game I played were significantly different than the rules specified, it was a very entertaining game.

First off: One 'side' of your build always had to retain a certain theme. If you began as barbarian, you either stayed that or went into a barbarian based Prc, such as frenzied berserker or rage mage. The other side could be pretty much anything.

2nd: Prc's could be combined. This isn't nearly as powerful in practice as it seems at first glance, and it allowed for some really odd flavored characters. In any case, I don't think any of us did combine Prcs for more than three levels in a campaign that spanned 17.

3rd: LA takes up one 'side'. It's intended to be equivalent to the powers gained from the same level of a class, so it makes sense. Racial HD work pretty much the same. Both must be taken as the secondary side.

4th: We got stomped in combat a lot. The big enemies were also gestalt, and the regular stuff was usually 3-6 CR above us. Clever tactics and teamwork were the only thing that prevented a TPK in 90% of the battles.

Take what you will from this, but it's perfectly fine to have a high-powered, very dangerous game.

[Bears With Lasers]

3rd: LA takes up one 'side'. It's intended to be equivalent to the powers gained from the same level of a class, so it makes sense. Racial HD work pretty much the same. Both must be taken as the secondary side.

It actually doesn't make sense. Gestalt characters shouldn't be as powerful as characters of *twice their class level*. A creature with 4 HD, +4 LA and 8 class levels is ECL 16; if you gestalt it, and it's 4HD/4LA//8 class levels, it's Gestalt ECL 8--but it's still as powerful as an ECL 16 creature, whereas Class1 8//Class2 8 would be more powerful than normal characters, but not *twice* as powerful.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I agree with Bears here. I usually calculate CR in gestalt at 1.2x per level, then increase that total by 1 point for every 5 regular class levels. But this number is very misleading- a poorly planned gestalt character can easily be much less powerful then that, while a very well planned gestalt character can be devastatingly cheap. Watch the development of your PC's carefully. If one appears to be exploiting his development, feel free to create specific enemies that counter his build.

[Bears With Lasers]

If one appears to be exploiting his development, feel free to create specific enemies that counter his build.

Or, you know, talk to him about it, maybe ask him to tone it down.

[fireinthedust]

I'm doing upan arena with some friends right now before I go to England for few months; all because of this thread!

It's 12th level Gestalt, with the PCs getting 12th level gold AND bonus items of their choice: either any 3 non-artifacts of their choice (preferably from published sources); or any 1 artifact.

the PCs are going to either fight each othe or work together, but it's set in a "Battle-Mat"-sized canyon with a Fortress the PCs have to defend from an army led by a lich Wiz//Sor, a Young Adult red dragon, a Hydra, Fire Giants, 100 minotaurs, some gargoyles, and a whack of skeletons. also I want a few monsters with class levels in there.
The fort has a dungeonlevel below it, so even after they slay my NPCs they'll have to deal with what's in there (I've got some cool ideas that should trip these guys up).

Any suggestions? I have virtually every major book out there; the lich is made with Libris Mortis feats (corpsecrafter tree! The dead minotars and gnolls are going to rise again as killer skeletons). The Dragon is with Dragonomicon.

The Players are all VERY experienced power gamers, so I'm not sure how well I'll be able to crush them.

[Zincorium]

It actually doesn't make sense. Gestalt characters shouldn't be as powerful as characters of *twice their class level*. A creature with 4 HD, +4 LA and 8 class levels is ECL 16; if you gestalt it, and it's 4HD/4LA//8 class levels, it's Gestalt ECL 8--but it's still as powerful as an ECL 16 creature, whereas Class1 8//Class2 8 would be more powerful than normal characters, but not *twice* as powerful.

I disagree on the "as powerful as an ECL 16 character part".

Spellcasting? No, same max as your competing normal gestalt, or less, because they can't take a second class up to the maximum.

Base attack bonus? Again, no, there isn't an advantage, and if their main side has poor progression, they're stuck with it.

Hit dice? exactly the same as the gestalt character you put forth. Which means feats and skills are the same maximums.

Talk to most optimizers and they'll tell you that level adjustments are incredibly bad for almost any character. They are barely worth the class features they are intended to replace, and the hit dice reduction is normally a death knell. The variant that we played not only worked fairly well (the person without any level adjustments was about equal in power to the total LA 7 template-freak) but prevented the 2nd character from dying every 5 seconds.