Creating magic weapons

[Ragnorrok]

A couple questions about making magical weapons that I seem to be confused about (and have heard various opinions on how it works).

1) When you make a weapon magical does it have to be at the weapon's creation or does can you make a weapon +1 when you can and at a later time add effects or more enhancement bonuses to the weapon.
2) This one is from a friend and one of my player's for a game I'll be DMing for at a later time. According to him when you add a magical effect such as keening to a weapon you are trading in your +1 or so bonus that put on the weapon for that effect. So if you want to add more effects to the weapon you get another +1 or more bonus at a later time and trade it in for another effect. I feel like this is wrong but I need some experienced opinion here.
3) This one is also from the same guy, I'm pretty sure this is wrong too. He believes that you can have a maximum +10 enhancement bonus on a weapon without any effects or anything. When I looked it up it said you could have maximum +5 with anything past +5(up to +10) being for determining prices of magical effects if you already have the +5 max or if you have +5.

Thank you for your answers when they get here

[Naomi Li]

1) The weapon must be made masterwork at (mundane) item creation to be transformed into a magical weapon. The magical improvements can then be added in at any time after. (And the magical enhancements can be added onto a weapon that already has some magical enhancements; you just need to pay the difference in magical reagents and labour)
(There is one method of transforming a non-masterwork item into a masterwork item that I know about, at least in Pathfinder: The spell Masterwork Transformation)
2) This is completely incorrect. The enhancement bonuses stay, and must have at least +1 to place any other enhancements on the weapon.
3) There is a maximum of +5 enhancement bonus on weapons, at least without getting into epic rules; anything above must come from special effects added on. (Though the bane enhancement can give you the effect of +6 or +7 against a specific group pre-epic) You could probably get a +1 enhancement bonus and then throw on +9 in special abilities, but this probably isn't a good idea in general.

[Ragnorrok]

Thank you very much!

[Naomi Li]

You're welcome. I hope you have fun in your gaming.

[Andezzar]

2) While this has nothing to do with the actual rules I can see where you friend's misconception came from.
Many Special Abilities are priced as Enhancement Bonuses, meaning they cost as much as adding an Enhancement Bonus. For example adding the keen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#keen) special ability costs as a +1 enhancement bonus. This means the market price of this upgrade is exactly as high as upgrading a +1 weapon to a +2 weapon or 6000 gp (= 8000 gpprice of a +2 weapon - 2000 gpprice of a +1 weapon)
If the real enhancement bonus is higher the price for adding special abilities will become higher because the price is always the total effective enhancement bonus, so a +2 keen weapon would cost as much as +3 weapon (18000 gp) and an upgrade would again cost the difference (18000 gp - 8000 gp = 10000 gp)
There are a few special abilities (mainly for armors) that have a flat cost. It does not matter when you add them.

3)The effective enhancement bonus (actual enhancement bonus plus special abilities priced as enhancement bonus) can reach +10 pre epic. You cannot get more than +5 to attack and damage without craft epic arms and armors.

Getting a weapon with only +1 to attack and damage and +9 worth of special abilities is a very good idea if you have someone in your party that can cast Greater Magic Weapon, because that spell will take care of the +5 to attack and damage you will also want to have.

Magic armors work in the same way, the base price for the enhancement bonus is only half as high (bonus²*1000gp instead of bonus²*2000)

[Captnq]

1) Later Time.
2) No.
3) No.

If you want all the rules about magic weapons and comments about how to deal with them both from a DM and PC point of view, may I suggest checking the Weapon Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9053.msg183871#msg183871).

Although, since you are unfamiliar with weapon construction, I would be EVER so grateful that you PM me any questions you have after reading it. The handbook is aimed to be useful from the beginner to the expert, so if it isn't addressing your concerns, I'd like to update it.

[KillianHawkeye]

You could probably get a +1 enhancement bonus and then throw on +9 in special abilities, but this probably isn't a good idea in general.

It could be a good idea if you have somebody to cast Greater Magic Weapon on a regular basis.

[Story]

The only reason I could think of to get an enhancement bonus above +1 is if you need a greater augment crystal for some reason (most likely Greater Truedeath on a Rogue) and even then you only need +3.

Greater Magic X makes normal enhancement bonuses useless and many enchantments are better than a +1 anyway.

[Naomi Li]

Reasons for adding normal +enhancement bonuses in 3.5
1) Sunder resistance (Some people DO play with this used, right?)
2) +enhancement bonuses are slightly superior in that they cannot be dispelled for more than a few turns, don't require actions to activate, etc. (Granted, this might be easily outweighed by the special abilities)

Additional reason for Pathfinder: Bypassing damage reduction without having the special material/alignment effect.

[Andezzar]

I never said having an enhancement bonus greater than +1 is bad, I only meant that granting the +x through craft magic arms and armors is inefficient. You get all the benefits through GMW as well.

By the time GMW is better than magic weapon (level 1) the spell will last the whole working day (8h), so the standard action probably won't be a problem.

Dispelling is far from a sure thing. While a permanent magic weapon will only be suppressed for 1d4 rounds, in the worst case you will have a masterwork for the rest of the encounter. GMW can be cast again right away. Additionally if the magic weapon is suppressed, all of its properties are. Dispelling GMW will at worst result in -4 to attack and damage.All the interesting properties (and the permanent +1) will remain.

The only real advantage is that you get the +x earlier in permanent form. Minimum CL for craft Magic Arms and Armors is bonus*3 and for GMW bonus*4. So you can get a permanent +5 at CL 16 and a temporary one at CL 20.

[Naomi Li]

I thought GMW specifically did NOT provide the +hardness and +hit points that an actual enhancement had? But yes, I suppose in 3.5 the special abilities would tend to be more attractive. Though from what I have read, in Pathfinder the enhancement bonuses are considered the best in the majority of situations for adventurers. (Since, you know, they now provide DR bypass at sufficient magical enhancement levels on top of all the prior boons)

(A +1 medium two-handed polearm would be a fairly easy sunder target; 7 hardness and 20 hit points should go down in one or two hits from a decent fighter, right?)

[Andezzar]

I thought GMW specifically did NOT provide the +hardness and +hit points that an actual enhancement had?You thought wrong:
Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon’s +1 bonus on attack rolls.)

This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5).


Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield and +10 to the item’s hit points.


Though from what I have read, in Pathfinder the enhancement bonuses are considered the best in the majority of situations for adventurers. (Since, you know, they now provide DR bypass at sufficient magical enhancement levels on top of all the prior boons)I cannot comment on Pathfinder, I have never more than casually looked at the books.


(A +1 medium two-handed polearm would be a fairly easy sunder target; 7 hardness and 20 hit points should go down in one or two hits from a decent fighter, right?)That is true whether the enhancement bonus is temporary or permanent. Still, who tries to destroy loot, when a disarm would just as well deprive the enemy of his weapon? Additionally Disarm uses uses a very similar mechanic to sunder and disarm always only requires one successful roll.

[Story]

The only real advantage is that you get the +x earlier in permanent form. Minimum CL for craft Magic Arms and Armors is bonus*3 and for GMW bonus*4. So you can get a permanent +5 at CL 16 and a temporary one at CL 20.

Except that CL is easy to boost especially at high levels, so you can often get GMW earlier in practice.

[Andezzar]

Except that CL is easy to boost especially at high levels, so you can often get GMW earlier in practice.5 caster levels above your HD sounds pretty difficult.

[Coidzor]

1) Sunder resistance (Some people DO play with this used, right?)

I don't really think so, unless they're losing equipment often enough that it's not worth the monetary investment. Or they're playing with PF's sunder rules backported to 3.5 or an out-and-out 3.P environment.


The only real advantage is that you get the +x earlier in permanent form. Minimum CL for craft Magic Arms and Armors is bonus*3 and for GMW bonus*4. So you can get a permanent +5 at CL 16 and a temporary one at CL 20.

Thankfully unless you're playing 3.0, you don't really need that +5 instead of a +4 enough to justify the monetary expenditure.

[Andezzar]

Is sunder in PF somehow more easily accomplished than disarm? If not why destroy loot? Why would NPCs do that?

Yeah yeah +5 is not much better than +4, It's just that with monetary expenditure you can get the +5 earlier if you want to, unless Story has a way to increase the CL of GMW to at least HD+5

[Coidzor]

Is sunder in PF somehow more easily accomplished than disarm? If not why destroy loot? Why would NPCs do that?

As I understand it from my read-throughs, sunder in PF means you don't have to actually destroy the loot. And even if you do destroy the loot, you can repair it and still turn a profit.

Broken =/= broken, if you will, it's just a bunch of penalties on using the object. And items can be brought back even from being completely destroyed as long as you can find the pieces, IIRC.

[Naomi Li]

I would expect most people in those lands would vastly prefer destroying a magic item being used in an attempt to murder them than they would temporarily removing it from the person's grasp where it can be picked up and used against them again, even if the latter option has the possibility of gaining immense wealth.

Wealth can be earned with time and possibly luck. Your life, on the other hand, can only be returned with expensive spells if you have had it arranged previously. Then there are people like the followers of Rovagug that outright delight in utterly destroying objects and encouraging entropy.

Outside of many adventurers and players, most people have much higher priorities than loot.

[Andezzar]

If one disarm attempt is successful, the opponent is deprived of his weapon - at least temporarily. If one sunder attempt is successful you still have to do enough damage to destroy the weapon. If you don't do enough damage, you have wasted your attack. The opponent is not inconvenienced in any way. Unless a character has only one of Improved Sunder or Improved Disarm, the chance of succeeding at the opposed attack roll is exactly the same.

[Coidzor]

IIRC, PF allows sunder to work on natural weapons, giving them a debuff until they've been healed, so that's one place where Sunder has an effect where disarm does not. Also, Hydras.

Still a little bit niche, since you'd probably just be wanting to do direct damage to help kill the critter faster instead.

IIRC, that's one of the other critiques of sundering/disarming, that if one can really do that all that easily, they'd be better served by using that attack to instead kill the enemy.

[Naomi Li]

How I imagine disarm would work in many circumstances.
1) Standard action spent to remove it from the person's grip. (Or one attack in a full round action)
2) If the disarmed individual would be next in initiative, delay until after step 3.
3) Person next in line spends a move action to pick it up and then hands it to the person in front of them as a free action before using their standard action productively. (In Pathfinder at least, this does NOT provoke an AoO unless the one picking up is within striking distance)
4) Disarmed individual attacks with their full force, impeded little.

[Coidzor]

How I imagine disarm would work in many circumstances.
1) Standard action spent to remove it from the person's grip. (Or one attack in a full round action)
2) If the disarmed individual would be next in initiative, delay until after step 3.
3) Person next in line spends a move action to pick it up and then hands it to the person in front of them as a free action before using their standard action productively. (In Pathfinder at least, this does NOT provoke an AoO unless the one picking up is within striking distance)
4) Disarmed individual attacks with their full force, impeded little.

That's fairly niche though, unless you have a lot of situations where the party is fighting a solid line of enemies who are just sitting with their thumbs in their asses waiting for the guy in front of them to die. :smallconfused:

[Naomi Li]

I can think of plenty of circumstances where a person with little use for a move action would be remaining right behind their melee combatants. Granted, adventurers would be somewhat less likely to encounter them, but I am not talking exclusively about adventurers. And the person would still have their five foot step, so their mobility isn't completely removed either.

[Story]

5 caster levels above your HD sounds pretty difficult.

With the ability to persist spells, it's trivial thanks to Suffer the Flesh. Otherwise, you need to spend a feat (Elder Giant Magic or Reserves of Strength).

[Andezzar]

Ah, Eberron and Krynn. No wonder I was not aware of those. If you are not playing in those campaign worlds, the feats or spell will probably not be available.

Also to use DMM:Persist on Suffer the Flesh, you would somehow be able to make that spell a divine spell.

[Karnith]

Ah, Eberron and Krynn. No wonder I was not aware of those. If you are not playing in those campaign worlds, the feats or spell will probably not be available.

Also to use DMM:Persist on Suffer the Flesh, you would somehow be able to make that spell a divine spell.
You could use Southern Magician. That way, you could have three major campaign settings represented in one character! Yes, I know that Suffer the Flesh obviates the need for Reserves of Strength here.
Or a non-setting specific way of changing an arcane spell into a divine. But that'd be boring.

[Story]

Also to use DMM:Persist on Suffer the Flesh, you would somehow be able to make that spell a divine spell.

Or just be an Anima Mage or Incantrix.


As for source availability, I guess it's a YMMV thing. The tables I've played at allowed nearly any official source, even if it's campaign specific.

[lsfreak]

CL boosting is fairly trivial.

Ring of Arcane Might and Orange Ioun Stone are standard wizard equipment. Create Magic Tattoo is a 2nd-level spell any wizard should have, gives +1CL once you hit CL13 (and can be cast on anyone). Then there's a ton of various ways to get the final +2s, the least convoluted probably being a robe of arcane might (transmutation) and a level of archmage, though the robes are rather expensive for what they do (but almost identical in price to upgrading a +4 weapon to +5, and waaaaaay cheaper than if you've got other enhancements upping the cost).

At mid levels, the cost of buying extra +1's on your weapons is vastly more than the 9000gp it costs to buy the wizard a pearl of power. You'll likely get a higher enhancement bonus a couple levels late, but then, you probably have a lot better stuff to be spending your money on in the first place than grabbing +1atk/+1dmg the first second you can afford it.

Investing a bit into UMD gets it ridiculously easy, bead of karma is +4CL for 10 minutes a day. Or grabbing your buff from a cleric.

[Story]

Ring of Arcane Might and Orange Ioun Stone are standard wizard equipment. Create Magic Tattoo is a 2nd-level spell any wizard should have, gives +1CL once you hit CL13 (and can be cast on anyone). Then there's a ton of various ways to get the final +2s, the least convoluted probably being a robe of arcane might (transmutation) and a level of archmage, though the robes are rather expensive for what they do (but almost identical in price to upgrading a +4 weapon to +5, and waaaaaay cheaper than if you've got other enhancements upping the cost).


You forgot the Vanguard of Kord for another easy +1. There's also Spell Enhancer, but at that point you're burning 4th level slots.

[lsfreak]

You forgot the Vanguard of Kord for another easy +1. There's also Spell Enhancer, but at that point you're burning 4th level slots.

That falls under convoluted, imo, because it requires adapting an deity-specific item to whatever the DM's setting's deities are (though really, I just didn't know about it before, and it's good advice for an extra +1). I did know about spell enhancer, but that's then eating up two spell slots. Ultimate magus or wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster can pull it off easily (and are standard tricks for the classes already), Master Specialist gets +2 to their school, I think there's a bard spell that boosts allies' CL, there's the one-use items from BoED, Tome of the Stilled Tongue if you're using deity adaptions, and some of the feats prominent in cheese (Dark Speech, Earth Spell) have it as lesser-used options. A cleric casting GMW gets the aforementioned prayer bead without any UMD hassle, Divine Spell Power, and the glory of persisted (greater) consumptive field.

Yea, like I said, CL-boosting is pretty trivial, and you can get the +5 without even leaving Core (UMD prayer bead + orange ioun stone or archmage 1). The big thing is what your DM considers setting-specific, and what the appropriate level of optimization for your group is.

[Chronos]

My cleric was tossing around CL 20 at level 15 without even trying: There are no shenanigans needed for just a Bead of Karma and an Ioun Stone. And as it happens, GMW is one of the things I'm using that CL for. All told, my weapon is the equivalent of a +12, for almost all of the day.