Knowledge Checks and IC Assumptions

[unseenmage]

Hey Playground, I'm curious how you folk handle failed Knowledge Checks in regards to identifying monsters.

And more specifically, what creature's besides a Ghost are Incorporeal but can cut down foes with martial skill? I have a character who is wrong, but I need to know how wrong.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If your player is more of the story gaming type he may volunteer interesting ways to fail. However this isn't really part of the rules as I read them. Failure generally means "you don't know anything about that creature." Boring, yes, but the interesting part may be how he gets owned by Casper over there.

If you want flavorful ways to fail the check, use other myths about ghosts that aren't incorporated in the Ghost stat block, like "they can appear anywhere if dramatically appropriate." If you want to be quick about it, use the statistics of Shadows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) or Dread Wraiths (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm).

Edit: I also find that false knowledge has a humorous tone, and the unknown has more of a fearful tone. So, depending on what tone you're trying to set...

[alanek2002]

Well, on his last nat 1, Our Knowledge man identified a Ettin as a Gnome. We all knew it was an ettin (two heads helps) but we all agreed it was a gnome.

The wizard points to the tall, lumbering, two-headed creatures that came out of the night, and yells: "GNOMES!"

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

That is funny, but if my PC who invested a lot of character resources into knowledge skills to get ridiculous bonuses (on a check that doesn't break the game) auto-failed on a 1, I would has a sad.

[Maginomicon]

There's not really much room for assumptions from knowledge checks for identifying creatures. Assuming they don't have ranks, they can't conclusively identify creatures period. They can make anyone's guess as to it, and if they're flat told the answer then they don't have to make a check. If you want to roll with false assumptions though, I'd suggest...
{table=head] Failing the DC by this much... | ...means... | For example...
2 | identifies as a different creature with the same type and subtype(s) | Identifying a goblin as a bugbear |
5 | identifies as a different creature with the same type but a different set of subtype(s) | Identifying a goblin as a kobold |
10 | identifies as a different creature with a different type | Identifying a goblin as a worg |
15 | can't even make a guess | "I dunno" |
[/table]

Personally, I implement passive knowledge checks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310882), and thus it's almost impossible to fail the DC by a significant amount.

[Diarmuid]

Natural 1's ok skill checks aren't auto fails or critical fails. Depending on your skilled you could still potentially id a monster or at least fail "reasonably".

[Tvtyrant]

There's not really much room for assumptions from knowledge checks for identifying creatures. Assuming they don't have ranks, they can't conclusively identify creatures period. They can make anyone's guess as to it, and if they're flat told the answer then they don't have to make a check. If you want to roll with false assumptions though, I'd suggest...
{table=head] Failing the DC by this much... | ...means... | For example...
2 | identifies as a different creature with the same type and subtype(s) | Identifying a goblin as a bugbear |
5 | identifies as a different creature with the same type but a different set of subtype(s) | Identifying a goblin as a kobold |
10 | identifies as a different creature with a different type | Identifying a goblin as a worg |
15 | can't even make a guess | "I dunno" |
[/table]

The hilarious part is misinterpreting a goblin as a Balor. "OMG run for your lives!"

[MrNobody]

It really depends on how much the player fails the check.
I use this system.

One or two point: he gets the creature's type, no more, no less.
2 to 5: he mistakes the creature for something else of the same type (a nimph for a dryad)
more than 5: he mistakes the creature for something with similar physical charachteristics (a naga for a pyton) or same special attack, if the PC saw it (iron golem for a cockatrice).

For a natural 1, i use simply "you don't know" or, more often, i free my imagination and describe him the first strange creature that comes to my mind. So a frost worm can become the intestinal parasite of white dragons, freed after slaying the dragon from the inside, and so on...

If you are playing pathfinder and the player rolled really bad he could have mistaken the ghost for the spell "Spiritual ally".:smallbiggrin:

[johnbragg]

It really depends on how much the player fails the check.
I use this system.

One or two point: he gets the creature's type, no more, no less.
2 to 5: he mistakes the creature for something else of the same type (a nimph for a dryad)
more than 5: he mistakes the creature for something with similar physical charachteristics (a naga for a pyton) or same special attack, if the PC saw it (iron golem for a cockatrice).

For a natural 1, i use simply "you don't know" or, more often, i free my imagination and describe him the first strange creature that comes to my mind. So a frost worm can become the intestinal parasite of white dragons, freed after slaying the dragon from the inside, and so on...

If you are playing pathfinder and the player rolled really bad he could have mistaken the ghost for the spell "Spiritual ally".:smallbiggrin:

Amusing but vicious critical fails would involve the conviction that you "rolled a 20", and "noticed" an illusion or disguise that isn't actually there. Spending the rest of the fight with the ghost trying to convince the party that it's an illusion, or that it's a vampire variant from an imaginary splatbook with incorporeality as a bonus and a vulnerability to wood and shooting arrows at it all combat. Or that the ettin is actually a polymorphed wizard.

[Andezzar]

Skill checks do not have automatic failures or successes. If you meet the DC you succeed, if you don't you fail. Whether you rolled a 1 or a 20 is irrelevant.

Don't forget that only DC 10 and lower knowledge checks can be performed untrained. So it is impossible for anyone to identify a creature without ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill (DC is 10+#of HD)

[alanek2002]

We were low level, so a nat 1 failed almost any check. so we added that, seeing as they were to die anyways.