Partial Gestalt Tier 5/4 as Neo-Classes

[VariSami]

I have been thinking of ways to make Tier 5 classes a bit better, and I think that the Partial gestalt rules in the original Tier listing (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) are quite nice, although I learned of them after coming to almost the same conclusion.

My own take is making "new" base classes which are effectively gestalts of a Tier 5 and a Tier 4 class but the higher tier, "secondary" class is pre-modified with set alternative class features (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1151316) to create a set fluff for the new class and to limit their abuse somewhat.

Of, course, the problem lies with Tier 4 becoming more or less useless. I omitted the (primary) casters in it because I feel like they are much closer to Tier 3 than the martials. At least for now.

What do you think, would these work as balanced versions of the weaker classes in a primarily Tier 3-4 and low-op Tier 1-2 meta? I might add more if there are no problems with the basic idea, and I become inspired. For example, I own books for Dragonmech, Iron Kingdoms, Arcana Evolved, and the Dragon Compendium, and many of the classes in them would also qualify for this sort of a re-tooling due to their low power-level. They might also be useful in diversifying the pool of possible variants for other classes.

The current "neo-classes" are:

"Champion": Knight // Fighter
- 2 Resolute (Fig, CC), lose 2nd level fighter bonus feat
- 6 Counterattack (Fig, PHB2), lose 6th level fighter bonus
feat
- 8 Armor of God (Fig, CC), lose 8th level fighter bonus feat
- 16 Overpowering Attack (Fig, PHB2), lose 16th level fighter
bonus feat

"Brawler": Monk // Fighter
- 1 Hit-and-Run Tactics (Fig, DotU), loses heavy armor
proficiency
- 1 Thug (Fig, UA), loses heavy and medium armor proficiency
and 1st level fighter bonus feat
- 3/5/9 Zhentarim Fighter (Fig, CV web)

"Shinobi": (CA) Ninja // Monk
- 1/2/6 Fighting Style: Cobra, Invisible Eye, or Sleeping Tiger
(Mon, UA), loses bonus feats
- 3/7/12 Dark Moon Disciple (Mon, CV web), loses still mind,
wholeness of body, and abundant step
- 3 Standing Jump (Mon, DS), reduces fast movement
- 4 Wall Walker (Mon, DS), loses slow fall

"Commander": Paladin of Honor // Marshal

"Inspirer": Paladin of Freedom // (Spellsong) Bard
- Spellsong (Brd, Complete Book of Eldritch Might), loses
spellcasting and bardic music

"Despot": Paladin of Tyranny // Hexblade
- 4 Dark Companion (Hex, PHB2), loses Familiar

"Vandal": Paladin of Slaughter // Barbarian
- 1/11/14/17/20 Ferocity (Bar, CS web), loses (standard) Rage
- 7/10/13/17/19 Streetfighter (Bar, CS web), loses DR

"Samurai": (OA) Samurai // (CW) Samurai // Noble
- OA, CW, Dragonlance Campaign Setting

"Duelist": Swashbuckler // Rogue
- 3 Penetrating Strike (Rog, DS), loses trap sense
- 4 Disruptive Attack (Rog, PHB2), loses uncanny dodge

[Aliek]

It's hard to get through the barrier between tiers 3 and 4. You should be useful in most situations, which most gestalts of Tiers 5 and 4 just can't accomplish very well.

Most can become decent to strong tier 4s, tough.

[Grod_The_Giant]

First, you might want to move this to the homebrew board. (You can report your own post and ask the mod to move it)

Up front, I can warn you of two major problems low-tier classes often suffer from that gestalt isn't going to address-- MAD and low skill points. Bumping everyone's points up by 2/level would help a lot on the latter account-- do it for high tiers too; just to keep the symmetry. I'll note suggestions for MAD individually.


"Champion": Knight // Fighter
- 2 Resolute (Fig, CC), lose 2nd level fighter bonus feat
- 6 Counterattack (Fig, PHB2), lose 6th level fighter bonus
feat
- 8 Armor of God (Fig, CC), lose 8th level fighter bonus feat
- 16 Overpowering Attack (Fig, PHB2), lose 16th level fighter
bonus feat
I'd probably have done Knight//Marshal, but this works decently. The main issue is that you're losing a lot of bonus feats at low levels, when they'd be useful, for mediocre ACFs.

I'd stick Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and maybe Bluff on the skill list-- you've got the Charisma, so you might as well let 'em be faces. You might also grant a special mount of some sort, to synergize with the Knight's mounted combat stuff.


"Brawler": Monk // Fighter
- 1 Hit-and-Run Tactics (Fig, DotU), loses heavy armor
proficiency
- 1 Thug (Fig, UA), loses heavy and medium armor proficiency
and 1st level fighter bonus feat
- 3/5/9 Zhentarim Fighter (Fig, CV web)
I'm less certain about this one. Fighter boosts your HD and BAB, but... that's really the least of the Monk's problems. You're still MAD as anything-- heck, you're actually worse now, since you want Cha for the Zhentarim Fighter abilities. You still have a real issue with mobility-skirmish incompatibility. You now require good scores in every ability score to be effective (and yes, that was worth saying twice). Monk abilities are still painfully limited. You're MAD. You have good skills, but not enough points to put in them. And did I mention the MAD?

...you might be able to make a decent archer, if you could flurry with a bow. You could dump Str, and Zen Archery would reduce some need for Dex, and archers don't need as much Dex... but it still hurts, and that's probably not the build you were going for with this combination.

I'm not sure if you could salvage this, frankly. Most skill points would let you skillmonkey, and the ability to use Wis or Dex for melee attack/damage and Wis for Intimidation would help reduce MAD. The ability to use Flurry on standard actions would also be a welcome boost. But I don't think the combination works very well, overall.


"Shinobi": (CA) Ninja // Monk
- 1/2/6 Fighting Style: Cobra, Invisible Eye, or Sleeping Tiger
(Mon, UA), loses bonus feats
- 3/7/12 Dark Moon Disciple (Mon, CV web), loses still mind,
wholeness of body, and abundant step
- 3 Standing Jump (Mon, DS), reduces fast movement
- 4 Wall Walker (Mon, DS), loses slow fall
Again, monk is just too dysfunctional to combine well with most things, although this does work better than the Monk//Fighter. (Probably a rather MAD T4, overall)

Again, Wis or Dex in place of Strength for attacks would help. So would swapping the crappy Sudden Strike for Sneak Attack. Also, grant more uses of both Monk and Ninja abilities.


"Commander": Paladin of Honor // Marshal
This one, I like. I'm not sure what Paladin of Honor is, but the combination is pretty spot-on.

Let Paladin casting work off Charisma and grant more smites/day (Level+Charisma? Steal the Pathfinder version), and I'd call it a decent T3. (Especially with Battle Blessing)


"Inspirer": Paladin of Freedom // (Spellsong) Bard
- Spellsong (Brd, Complete Book of Eldritch Might), loses
spellcasting and bardic music
Not familiar with the bard variant, but most of my comments from the Paladin//Marshal should apply.


"Despot": Paladin of Tyranny // Hexblade
- 4 Dark Companion (Hex, PHB2), loses Familiar
This is a great, flavorful combination, but the casting gets messy. I'd combine the two lists. Also, check out the "official unofficial" Hexblade fix (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13411551#comment-13411551) by Mearls himself. Finally, Paladin, Charisma casting, etc.


"Vandal": Paladin of Slaughter // Barbarian
- 1/11/14/17/20 Ferocity (Bar, CS web), loses (standard) Rage
- 7/10/13/17/19 Streetfighter (Bar, CS web), loses DR

A neat, brutal combination here. Only comments are the standard Paladin ones.


"Samurai": (OA) Samurai // (CW) Samurai // Noble
- OA, CW, Dragonlance Campaign Setting
No comment here-- don't know the OA Samurai or the Noble.


"Duelist": Swashbuckler // Rogue
- 3 Penetrating Strike (Rog, DS), loses trap sense
- 4 Disruptive Attack (Rog, PHB2), loses uncanny dodge
This one works out pretty dang well, actually. Free Weapon Focus and Int to damage from the Swashbuckler mean that you can dump Strength altogether, in favor of better abilities. Good BAB, skills, saves... you're golden.

[VariSami]

Well, it is not really homebrew, IMO, since it is completely based on published material (a little of which is 3rd party, though). Unless homebrew is supposed to act as a guideline to all houserules? I think I have seen similar threads here.

Knight // Marshal would actually be great as well. I need to add that after at some point. The point is to have as many flavourful combinations per class as possible, and that is an excellent one.

Part of the point is making the Fighter-based classes less feat-based simply to discourage dipping since gestalts are naturally front-loaded. Then again, I am not yet sure if these should be counted as actual classes, and if they do count as actual classes, is multiclassing between them limited somehow (for example, no multiclassing when the original classes overlap).

As I recall, Zhentarim Fighter's abilities are gravy, and they should not stop the MAD monk (or brawler) from dumping Cha. Wait what, are we actually implying that the monk is MAD? Or the paladin, for that matter? (I would prefer not creating actual homebrew to fix them; the paladins could probably be shifted to spell-less versions, though, if they did not suck majorly.) Luckily, I prefer letting the players use 36 points point buy to help alleviate MAD in any case.

The "paladin of honor" is the name for the standard, LG paladin to differentiate it from the rest, as mentioned in UA but not in the SRD for reasons unknown. Too bad the Red Falcon variant of Paladin is so bad; the military bonuses would be very flavorful for the "commander".

The spellsongs are purely verbal minor spells which can be combined for greater effects.

I suppose the "ideal" power level for many of these combinations would be somewhere between Warblade and Warlock. The Paladins seem to be easier to get there, since the biggest problem is the reliance on Wis for spellcasting (as well as the limit on daily uses of their abilities). Monks... Well, I have never liked them in any case, but I am trying my best since for some reason, many players seem to enjoy them. It seems like they might need to tristalt with something very weak like I did with the samurais (Noble is a horribad, definitely tier 6, class but gives some skills and fluff).