Troll LA/RHD

[Harbinger]

A trolls 6 racial hit dice and 5 level adjustment make it totally unviable as a player. A level 12 human barbarian is much more powerful than a level 1 troll barbarian. It's obvious that the troll needs some LA/RHD though, because a level 12 troll barbarian is much more powerful than a level 12 human barbarian. My question is, then, at what point are they balanced? How much of the adjustment can be taken away and how much must be kept to make the two barbarians equal? I ask this because I really like trolls, and it is my desire to at some point play one.

[Zombulian]

I've always had trouble with the balancing issue you described. Though if you want to play a troll, using the Lesser Planetouched variant from the Player's Guide to Faerun to get rid of the Mur-Zhagul (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413b) LA, it becomes very playable - granted only if you're starting around high level play.

[Flickerdart]

The thing about trolls is that the usefulness of their one schtick (regeneration) depends entirely on how lethal your DM runs the campaign. If PCs die left and right and your enemies are always a huge threat then being able to turn death into unconsciousness will save your bacon more than once. On the other hand, if PCs are rarely if ever at risk of death then the regen will never come into play. In this regard, trolls are much like vampires and liches, where what you get is theoretically really good but in practice tends to be over-valued quite a bit by the people assigning it LA.

[Lord Haart]

I think nowadays i'd go with Mineral Warrior template plus Troll-blooded feat, tackled on top of a Goliath if i need the "really big brute" imagery or on top of something without LA if i can manage with, say, orc's base stats. That's for the basic mountain troll type, of course, different imagery might require different assembly pieces.

[KillianHawkeye]

The thing about trolls is that the usefulness of their one schtick (regeneration) depends entirely on how lethal your DM runs the campaign. If PCs die left and right and your enemies are always a huge threat then being able to turn death into unconsciousness will save your bacon more than once. On the other hand, if PCs are rarely if ever at risk of death then the regen will never come into play. In this regard, trolls are much like vampires and liches, where what you get is theoretically really good but in practice tends to be over-valued quite a bit by the people assigning it LA.

Don't forget that the troll also heals 5 points of that damage every round. That goes a long way towards long-term survival and keeping oneself in the fight, not to mention the resources you save on healing.

The other main strength is that its size gives it reach, which is incredibly useful in melee combat. It also had pretty good natural armor, a whole stack of natural weapons, and it can see farther in the dark than most subterranean creatures.

The point is that the troll has an awful lot going for it in terms of being a front-line warrior. Regeneration is just one (albeit large) part of the package.

[Zaydos]

Lets see troll gets a +3-LA to hit (+12.5 to damage), +6 to AC, natural weapons (important at Lv 6; claws even with rend become obsolete compared to 2HW by 12th, although bite still matters), +6 hp/HD in the future but only +4/die for troll HD (makes up for hp loss from 1 level completely, possibly two, and will after a few levels make up for 3), reach, regeneration, scent and darkvision. They get +6 to Fort saves, +2 to Ref, but -1 to Will.

In exchange they lose: 2 BAB so one less weapon attack half the time (but 1 more bite at a higher to hit than your lowest weapon most of the time and at 6th claws actually are worth using as primary), Trap Sense, Improved Uncanny Dodge, fast movement (pounce) and Rage 2/day.

At Lv 6 troll is clearly better than barbarian. At level 7 troll barbarian 1 is still better than Barbarian (barbarian has DR 1, regen tops that easy, and troll now has rage 1/day and fast movement).

So we can conclude troll needs some LA. 5 is too much (-2 to hit, -1 attack per round, huge hp loss, -3 to Will, no Ref bonus, halves the Fort bonus).

That said I'd guestimate needing 3 or 4 LA still depending upon optimization. 3 leaves you more hp at high levels (less immediately), same to hit but trades a weapon attack for a weaker bite, you have better damage and AC but no Improved Uncanny Dodge and lower DR. The -2 hit to Will (an already bad save) hurts and the +6 to Fort probably helps less. Overall I'd say at 3 LA troll is still stronger than plain barbarian but it'd take some building actual characters with barbarian + PrC levels to make it certain. Going by sheer numbers, though, troll stays viable at 4 LA. Making its printed ECL actually much more accurate than usual.

Edit: Should have been comparing to Half-Orc which makes the to hit and damage increases lower. Doesn't change much else. Going with Water Orc you start getting LA 4 to be probably too high. So a part of it depends upon optimization.

[Spuddles]

I think nowadays i'd go with Mineral Warrior template plus Troll-blooded feat, tackled on top of a Goliath if i need the "really big brute" imagery or on top of something without LA if i can manage with, say, orc's base stats. That's for the basic mountain troll type, of course, different imagery might require different assembly pieces.

Water Orc + half minotaur and trollblooded is another alternative.

[Invader]

I think it's largely dependent on the optimization of the group and the difficulty the DM throws at you. I've played in campaigns where the RHD and LA fit perfectly fine and other campaigns where a troll wouldn't have lasted a session.

[123456789blaaa]

One interesting idea I've seen is to use the Lesser Planetouched rule and use the usually overpowered interpretation that removes ALL the LA. Then use it with the Mur-Zhagul troll (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413b). What do you guys think?

[Zombulian]

I've always had trouble with the balancing issue you described. Though if you want to play a troll, using the Lesser Planetouched variant from the Player's Guide to Faerun to get rid of the Mur-Zhagul (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413b) LA, it becomes very playable - granted only if you're starting around high level play.


One interesting idea I've seen is to use the Lesser Planetouched rule and use the usually overpowered interpretation that removes ALL the LA. Then use it with the Mur-Zhagul troll (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413b). What do you guys think?

I think it was the first response to this thread.

[123456789blaaa]

I think it was the first response to this thread.

I am so embarrassed right now :smallredface:.

[Harbinger]

I think nowadays i'd go with Mineral Warrior template plus Troll-blooded feat, tackled on top of a Goliath if i need the "really big brute" imagery or on top of something without LA if i can manage with, say, orc's base stats. That's for the basic mountain troll type, of course, different imagery might require different assembly pieces.

Thanks, but I don't want to make a heavily templated orc or goliath and call it a troll, I specifically want to use the troll presented in the SRD.

[lunar2]

in that case, LA should probably be dropped to 3. fire is too common in any game, and acid is too common in optimized games for regen to be really useful.

[ShurikVch]

How about variant LA rules?

Instead delayed class progression, troll will get constant penalty:

–5 on skill checks and ability checks.
–5 on attack rolls and saving throws.
–5 on level checks (including caster level checks).
–5 to the DC for any spell he casts or any other ability he uses
that allows a saving throw.
–5 to any constant Armor Class bonus granted by race.

[Marnath]

The LA should be dropped. You're playing a beatstick which is an inherently inferior choice already before you add in the terrible racial hitdice. There's a big reason why monsters are a poor choice, and it's because LA is a really stupid mechanic.


"But if we let them play as these powerful monsters no one will ever play a human or demi-human melee guy!" All right, so the player just goes and rolls a god wizard or a halfling supermount build or something and ruins your campaign balance anyway.