Help! My Dm Is Pulling Out His "nerf Gun"

[Phylion]

Okay, my DM is trying to establish some nerfs to my wizard friend and myself, the artificer. UGH UGH UGH It's all very frustrating. First and foremost, he says that he's banning polymorph. (Which we already have access to as we are 1000XP short of ninth level.) I need solid reasons that my DM should not ban polymorph, or why it's just a jerk move to do so. It's a cornerstone spell in any Wizard's repertoire. The next thing he's trying to do is take away my metamagic spell trigger. Now let me clarify. He wants to take away me being able to use it multiple times in one go, effectively turning my blastificer into a useless pile of mush. He sent me a bunch of articles all explaining how the original intent was to have it only usable once. This is fine that they intended that, but don't take it away in the middle of a build for it, not to mention the cost involved in doing megashots or the fact that even if it was intended to act that way, that's not the way it was printed and they obviously weren't attached to it because it hasn't been errataed. Please help me explain why this is nonsense. When I next see him I am going to try to explain the, "give us tougher opponents" idea.

[Quorothorn]

Offer one of the Polymorph revisions as an alternative to having it be flat B&? Both Rich Burlew and Pathfinder took a shot at making such a thing, and so did a...lot of other people. A lot.

[Keneth]

It's... not a bad idea. I mean, obviously he should have discussed this with you a bit sooner, but I can give you a hundred reasons why polymorph should be banned or at least nerfed.

As for Metamagic Spell Trigger, I don't really see the need to nerf it. I haven't played artificer in a long time, where exactly is the problem with using more metamagic feats? Can artificers reduce the charge cost or something?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Polymorph is utterly goofy, though. As a general rule, if a single spell, feat, maneuver, what have you is "a cornerstone in every build," it's probably too good.

Metamagic Spell Trigger isn't an issue I'm as familiar with, but if you feel that it obviates you entire build, you'd be well within your rights to ask to retrain. (Still, the free quickens alone...)

The real question about the "appropriateness" of both moves depends on the rest of the party. Besides you and the wizard, how are your buddies doing? Are you playing with a well-built druid and a DMM cleric? Is everyone contributing to the game equally? Then maybe your DM is panicking over nothing. Are you playing with a fighter and a rogue? Are people being overshadowed by your raw damage potential? Then your DM is probably doing the right thing.

[Callin]

You could say "Stop being a whinny punk and ban it because you dont like it"

Its a group effort game. Stuff like that needs to be talked about and addressed at the start of the game. BEFORE it becomes a part of someones progression. Should they pull this stunt then its time to go back to the table and hash it out. Ok why does he want to ban it? Why do you want to keep it? Can you adhere to the Gentlemens Agreement to not abuse the fool outta it? What is good for the PC is also good for the NPC.

Should he ban it ask to redo your character. Sine the rules of the game have changed.

[TuggyNE]

Okay, my DM is trying to establish some nerfs to my wizard friend and myself, the artificer. UGH UGH UGH It's all very frustrating. First and foremost, he says that he's banning polymorph. (Which we already have access to as we are 1000XP short of ninth level.) I need solid reasons that my DM should not ban polymorph, or why it's just a jerk move to do so. It's a cornerstone spell in any Wizard's repertoire. The next thing he's trying to do is take away my metamagic spell trigger. Now let me clarify. He wants to take away me being able to use it multiple times in one go, effectively turning my blastificer into a useless pile of mush. He sent me a bunch of articles all explaining how the original intent was to have it only usable once. This is fine that they intended that, but don't take it away in the middle of a build for it, not to mention the cost involved in doing megashots or the fact that even if it was intended to act that way, that's not the way it was printed and they obviously weren't attached to it because it hasn't been errataed. Please help me explain why this is nonsense. When I next see him I am going to try to explain the, "give us tougher opponents" idea.

Banning/nerfing polymorph and Metamagic Spell Trigger is not actually a bad idea. The only problem is that your DM should ideally have done so beforehand; mid-game changes like this are pretty disruptive. As such, I'd recommend suggesting a choice between either lightening up on the nerfs and letting you two switch over time, or allowing a rebuild to use other options. And there's definitely lots of ways to be useful as a wizard without polymorph, and from what I know also various ways to be a useful Arty without stacking MST.

Without knowing your party composition, it's hard to tell how effective a different encounter design plan would be, but it's quite possible the DM has considered that but rejected it because it would make things too difficult for the other players.

[Xuldarinar]

Hate to repeat what has been said but, here I go.


They aren't really unreasonable bans, but given that it is being changed where it is, I can understand the frustration. I'd say either argue for it to remain, which may not be for the best, or at least ask to retrain, building towards something else.

If you've already utilized something, I do think the DM should provide an in game reason why it no longer works. If you do something that would normally have one result, and from a certain point onward it provides a different result or no result at all, there should logically be a reason. Particularly from the stand point of a wizard or an artificer, in such a circumstance they are going to want to investigate to figure out why something is no longer working and correct it if at all possible.

[Telonius]

The Polymorph ban is one I'm fully on board with; it's part of the houserules I give everyone before a campaign starts. Agreed with what everybody else has posted: "before the game starts" is the appropriate time to discuss things like that. Sometimes things happen, and a DM isn't aware of just how powerful an ability or combination might be until it crops up in gameplay; that's unfortunate but understandable. I'd let this one slide. Seriously, you're a Wizard. Removing a single spell is not going to make you useless.

The Metamagic Spell Trigger issue is a bit thornier one. How many charges are you usually blowing at once, and with which metamagic feats? On the DM's side, he's probably worried about you one-shotting his BBEG with a no-save spell. But on your side, the strategy does have a cost: time, gold, and XP to craft the thing, plus all of the metamagic feats you've invested to make it work. This is not a free nuke.

If he does decide to nerf the spell trigger, I would ask him if you could retrain some of the metamagic feats you'll no longer be using. You took them on the assumption that they'd work as advertised, and Feats are a lot harder to come by than spells.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. I don't think you're going to find much traction here on the Polymorph issue. It's too much of a swiss army knife. The more books you have, the more, exponential, power it tends to gain.

The thing about "throw us tougher encounters", if you're using something like Polymorph (Not familiar with the other) is that it causes an arms race where basically the DM can never really get ahead without going into ludicrous plans in a normal campaign, like.. selective AMF fields and mind swapped Aleax Ice Assassins, and such like that. It's not a rabbit's hole I'm personally eager to delve into as a DM. So I can understand it.Makes me miss things like System Shock rolls, as they were quite decent at limiting this sort of insanity and was a decent "nerf" without really crippling it beyond all hope.

[Adverb]

Your DM seems pretty legit. Wizards and artificers could both use a nerf, and Polymorph is certainly a good place to start.

[Naomi Li]

Unless there are circumstances beyond what you've revealed, I think your DM is being utterly reasonable. As said before, this being brought about mid-campaign is sub-optimal, but sub-optimal things happen all the time and figuring out how to deal with them is part of life.

A retrain of your artificer into a more well-rounded build not reliant upon a single trick that the DM considers ludicrously overpowered would be a good concession for him to make. That, or switching to a new character that he has evaluated for not shattering the game.

[Kudaku]

Polymorph is one of those things that can catch inexperienced DMs by surprise - if the alternative is to do a messy ban mid-game (and offer a free retrain to characters who use/rely on it) or to let it slide and have it wreck your campaign... Well, I know which option I'd take.

Out of curiosity, were you reading wizard guides or the like when you made your character?

[SassyQuatch]

1. Your DM seems like a good guy to me.
2. It's Nerf or nothin.

[Fax Celestis]

Buck up, Bambi.

If you really want meta on your spell triggers, buy or craft them that way.

Polymorph is wholly half of what's wrong with high level magic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hate to jump on the band-wagon, but those are not unreasonable moves for a DM to make.

Polymorph and its ilk are some of the most stupidly broken spells in the game. Smacking them with the ban-hammer may feel harsh, but it's immensely better than a passive-aggressive nerf-into-uselessness with no opportunity to replace it. Doing it mid-game is a little distasteful, but the best thing to do is just suck it up and move on.

Metamagic spell-trigger is a bit closer to call. Burning through charges like mad is certainly a strong balancing factor, 6 charges for a maximized & empowered spell, but I can see a nova shot against the BBEG being a serious concern. Again, a mid-game call is a bit tasteless but I can see where he's coming from.

[Brookshw]

Good for him/her.

[Pluto!]

I need solid reasons that my DM should not ban polymorph, or why it's just a jerk move to do so.
...
The next thing he's trying to do is take away my metamagic spell trigger.
...Sounds reasonable.

[Renegade Paladin]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/Smileys/emotbandwagon8ax.gif

3.5 polymorph is completely broken and your DM is doing absolutely nothing wrong bar not doing this sooner.

[Phaederkiel]

I think that the op does not very much like to hear it, but let me also repeat:

both bans are very much reasonable.


and that he did not know it beforehand: even Dms make mistakes, and sometimes, they learn.

if i had his predicament, i think i had three options:
a) ban the stupid gamebreakers
b) watch my campaign die
c) kill the pcs.


so, be nice to the guy, he wants you to play his campaign and he does not take the easy way out by "accidentally" killing your char. And your shout for "tougher monsters" makes killing your guys even more feasible.
Remember: everything the players can do, the dm can also use.

[Vanitas]

Both polymorph and metamagic spell trigger are beyond broken. Your DM is right, sorry.

[Vertharrad]

Casters...especially the full casters like wizards, druid and codzilla need to be nerfed into oblivion. We need to see some more reasonableness like there was in 2e, where casters still relied on the others even if it was just as meatshields. In 3e the other classes aren't even considered as meatshields since the casters can do their job better without them.

[Manly Man]

Makes me miss things like System Shock rolls, as they were quite decent at limiting this sort of insanity and was a decent "nerf" without really crippling it beyond all hope.

Indeed. Suggest that you could just have to make a Fortitude save of the spell level's DC, and if you fail, you're brought to -1 hit points or something similar. Perhaps -1 hit point per level (in this case, it would be -5 hit points). Not so sure about the Metamagic Spell Trigger thing, since I have little experience with Artificers, but the Fortitude save sounds fair enough of a deterrent.

[Just to Browse]

I feel like this thread needs more people repeating what the second post said.

Also, ask the DM if you can revise your blastificer now that he's nerfed MMST.

[Phylion]

Thank you for all of the wonderful input, but now my Wizard friend and I have just moved on.
I am allowed a new character if I so desire, but I am just going to change my blastificer to a hordeficer and call it a day. Thanks again.

[avr]

I'd have thought a hordificer was generally lower power than a blastificer without multiple Metamagic Spell Triggers, but whatever makes you happy.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'd be more upset about the ban of polymorph, if you already had access to the spell, but you don't. Really, the issue here seems to be the timing of the nerfs more than the case for nerfing them.

I'm unfamiliar with metamagic spell trigger, but polymorph is (in)famously goofy.

[Kelb_Panthera]

For anyone else unfamiliar with metamagic spell-trigger, here ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060328a) is the artificer. Metamagic spell-trigger is its 6th level class feature.

[Jeff the Green]

For anyone else unfamiliar with metamagic spell-trigger, here ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060328a) is the artificer. Metamagic spell-trigger is its 6th level class feature.

So by stacking it you could bring make a spell do x2 damage by empowering twice, or max x1.5 by empowering and maximizing?

Either way I'd say it's reasonable.

If be wary about hordeficer because of the time it takes to do all the rolls. Be sure to have all the paperwork ready, and suggest to your DM having a bunch of d20 rolls printed out in a list to use as your constructs' saves and attacks.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

All the people who are whining about the "Nerf everything to oblivion" thing needs to grow up if you have such a problem maybe stop playing games with those classes. I hear things like WoW don't have as much a problem.

As for the Polymorph ban yeah its typically considered very powerful and it is not like he remove it yet you didn't have access to it yet. Well at least if your wizard friend shouldn't but doesn't the Artificer have that class ability to be treated as two levels higher for the purpose of access to spells?

Anyway the Polymorph is a dubious spell and needs a retooling to be less over powered, a ban is harsh but understandable.

As for the Metamagic Spell Trigger, it seems he wants to reduce your damage output to maybe level out with the rest of the party. Of course if he is not restricting spells off the wizard list beyond Polymorph then maybe he just thinks your ability is better then it is.

[Keneth]

Ah, now I get it. Metamagic Spell Trigger is an artificer class ability. I thought we were talking about the Metamagic Spell Trigger feat from Complete Mage (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-mage--58/metamagic-spell-trigger--1933/).

Yeah, compared to that, the artificer ability is broken as hell, even though it burns through charges like crazy. Personally, I'd move it to 10th level and limit it to 9 spell levels, like the feat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So by stacking it you could bring make a spell do x2 damage by empowering twice, or max x1.5 by empowering and maximizing?

Either way I'd say it's reasonable.

If be wary about hordeficer because of the time it takes to do all the rolls. Be sure to have all the paperwork ready, and suggest to your DM having a bunch of d20 rolls printed out in a list to use as your constructs' saves and attacks.

The problem is something like polar ray in a staff being fired off as a maximized empowered split-ray twinned spell at the artificer's full caster level. 12 charges off of the staff and th level 13 artificer deals the following

78 from 13d6 maxed
22.75 from 13d6 * 1/2 (empower)
X2 from split ray
X2 from twin

For a total of 403ish damage as a standard action.

That's more hp's than almost anything in the monster manual has and it can be done 4 times from a single staff at mid-level.

[Fax Celestis]

So by stacking it you could bring make a spell do x2 damage by empowering twice, or max x1.5 by empowering and maximizing?

Fundamental rule of magic: you cannot apply the same metamagic feat twice to one spell.

[Jeff the Green]

Fundamental rule of magic: you cannot apply the same metamagic feat twice to one spell.

Which would be why I asked. I was pretty sure of that, but was also pretty sure that someone would have pointed that out, so I wasn't sure whether I had misunderstood the OP or misunderstood the rules.