Dark Template from ToM overpowered?

[Hobbo Jim]

Hey everyone! I've been looking up templates for rogues, and I came across the "Dark" template from ToM, and at least to me it seems to give a lot of things for a simple +1 LA. Is it as powerful/overpowered as I think or am I missing something? I'd also like to see what people think would make it balanced if it isn't.

[Flickerdart]

+1 LA can be the difference between having a coveted class feature and not having it. Dark is a good template, but given how weak rogues are, that +1 LA really hurts you even if you can get it bought off. Also, the version of HiPS that Dark gives isn't the good one - there's a bunch of things missing from it that other ones give you.

[Story]

Just buy a constant Collar of Umbral Metamorphisis.

Generally you should avoid LA like the plague unless you can buy it off, and even then it's rarely worth it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

To expand on what flickerdart said, ToM Dark Template gives the weakest version of HiPS (it only removes the need to be unobserved, you still need cover or concealment to hide), if you want a stronger version you should look into the version found in Cormyr the tearing of the weave (a FR adventure), which gives the Su version (identical to the Shadowdancer/Assassin's one).

It is a nice template, don't get me wrong but there are stronger options.

[Ravens_cry]

To expand on what flickerdart said, ToM Dark Template gives the weakest version of HiPS (it only removes the need to be unobserved, you still need cover or concealment to hide), if you want a stronger version you should look into the version found in Cormyr the tearing of the weave (a FR adventure), which gives the Su version (identical to the Shadowdancer/Assassin's one).

It is a nice template, don't get me wrong but there are stronger options.
Hmm, would a constant item of blur count a source of concealment?

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm, would a constant item of blur count a source of concealment?

Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm) does it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I guess so, though it would fall under Custom Item rules and we all know how they are a slippery slope.

[Adverb]

It's solid, but given that there's a magic item which will give it to you for 22k, I think the LA is not the part that might be too cheap. Ignoring the darkvision/low-light vision, it gives you the following, which are conservatively priced at 30k:

6400 +8 Hide
3600 +6 Move Silently
2000 +10 land speed
18000 Cold resistance 10

The cold resistance is the big ticket item here, and if cold damage happens a lot in your campaign, it's a good deal. If cold damage doesn't happen often, or if it does but only in giant spikes, then Dark is less good. The costs are conservative, since the stealth/movement bonuses stack with everything and are slotless. But IME, hide and move silently are often trumped by monsters with extrasensory abilities, and high move speeds are often trumped by small battle mats.

So I'd say this is situational, because on the one hand I wouldn't mind having those bonuses, but on the other hand I can't imagine any character I've played ever wanting to trade a class level for that stuff.

[Ravens_cry]

Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm) does it.
True, but your attacks would also have concealment miss chance, which means you can't sneak attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack)

[Emperor Tippy]

True, but your attacks would also have concealment miss chance, which means you can't sneak attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack)

Except for a one level dip in Warlock for Devil's Sight.

Although I actually like a two level dip for Devil's Sight and Darkness along with the feat Blend Into Shadows.

Or a one level Warlock dip for Darkness and then Blend Into Shadows and At Home in the Deep (if you have Darkvision).

Granted, the tearing of the weave Dark Template is pretty much the best choice.

[SciChronic]

The Dark template is strong, but as other have said, you'll want to be able to buy of the +LA. Either way though, as with pretty much all skillmonkey/scouts Necropolitan is the better template to take on.

[Coidzor]

Except for a one level dip in Warlock for Devil's Sight.

Although I actually like a two level dip for Devil's Sight and Darkness along with the feat Blend Into Shadows.

Or a one level Warlock dip for Darkness and then Blend Into Shadows and At Home in the Deep (if you have Darkvision).

Granted, the tearing of the weave Dark Template is pretty much the best choice.

Is that one also LA+1 or is that LA+2 like the Shadow Template?

[Emperor Tippy]

If you can buy off the LA then its worthwhile to take it. If you can't buy off the LA but can use the Tearing of the Weave version then it is worthwhile to take it.

If you can't buy off the LA and can't use the Tearing of the Weave version and have bunches of GP then it's worthwhile to consider buying it.

Although gain, a one level warlock dip, two feats, and a permanent Darkvsion spell pretty much gets you Hide in Plain Sight as well (better than Shadowdancer if you just want HiPS).


Is that one also LA+1 or is that LA+2 like the Shadow Template?

+1 LA as well.

[Story]

To expand on what flickerdart said, ToM Dark Template gives the weakest version of HiPS (it only removes the need to be unobserved, you still need cover or concealment to hide), if you want a stronger version you should look into the version found in Cormyr the tearing of the weave (a FR adventure), which gives the Su version (identical to the Shadowdancer/Assassin's one).

It is a nice template, don't get me wrong but there are stronger options.

On the other hand, the darkness rules listed nearby in the same book imply that HiPS was intended to remove the need for concealment. It's not RAW but you could probably get it allowed in a real game.

[Curmudgeon]

... the version found in Cormyr the tearing of the weave (a FR adventure), which gives the Su version (identical to the Shadowdancer/Assassin's one).
That's by no means identical to the Shadowdancer/Assassin ability, because it still fails to work in daylight. So it's basically like 50% of the Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight.