Incarnate Construct of Sacred Guardian Effigy Character?

[unseenmage]

So my Artificer/Cleric has a plan, he's going to build himself an heir.

Process goes that he builds an Effigy (CAr) of himself, it winds up being a 1HD Effigy of a gnome. Then he applies the Sacred Guardian Template (DL:BoK) to it. Then he Incarnate Construct's (SS) it.

It's such a wild success that he's going to use his epic wealth awesomeness to create a self sufficient city of these things summarily making them a playable race in his campaign world. (Already cool with DM, he's stoked about it.)

My questions are, what are the racial stats for Incarnate Constructs?
What's the final LA on these things?
How long do they live? Would it just be the average lifespan of "humanoids" or like so many other things does it default to the human average if it's unlisted?

[Yogibear41]

Not sure about LA but do note that the creature will lose all the SU and EX abilities of the template and only keep the ability adjustments, and a maximum of +3 natural armor as the template states.

[unseenmage]

Not sure about LA but do note that the creature will lose all the SU and EX abilities of the template and only keep the ability adjustments, and a maximum of +3 natural armor as the template states.

That I know. It's the unlisted stuff I'm looking for guidance on.
- What an Incarnate Construct's lifespan is like.
- What the level adjustment is for a Sacred Guardian Effigy of a 1HD humanoid. (so I can then modify that by Incarnate Construct)
- Are there any other weird Racial traits that bleed through the process. (I asked once about Effigies of Humans and was told that so long as the bonus feat met the criteria for feat retention as set down by the Effigy template that it would retain that feat.)
- Anything else weird about treating Incarnate Constructs as a race that I might be forgetting.

[Karnith]

What's the final LA on these things?
Unless the Sacred Guardian template (which I am not familiar with) somehow gives a level adjustment to creatures with no level adjustment, they will be LA: -, because the Effigy template is LA: -.

If you want it to be playable, you'd need to discuss with your DM what an appropriate LA would be.

[Xuldarinar]

All I can really answer for you is this:

Effigy Gnome LA: -
Sacred Guardian Effigy Gnome LA: -
Incarnate Construct Sacred Guardian Effigy Gnome LA: - (-2)

[Clistenes]

All I can really answer for you is this:

Effigy Gnome LA: -
Sacred Guardian Effigy Gnome LA: -
Incarnate Construct Sacred Guardian Effigy Gnome LA: - (-2)

So...that character would, when created, 1 humanoid HD and ECL -1 (or would you replace its single humanoid HD with a class level, like a monster player character would do?).

Anyway, if it trains and earns 1000 xp, it would reach ECL 2, but given its level adjustment, it would in fact have 1 humanoid HD + 3 class levels - 2 LA = ECL 2

That's f***ing powerful...:smalleek:

I would replace the single humanoid HD with a class level and give it some cool LA +1 template to compensate for the lack of racial features, say that the creature has LA +0, and be done with it.

[Karnith]

Incarnate Construct is LA -2, minimum 0. It can't give a creature negative LA.

[Ruethgar]

Let's see.

Small Humanoid
Subtype: As Domain *
HD: 1d8
Speed: 20ft
Natural Armor: +3
Abilities: +4 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Cha, +4 Wis

Looks strong to me, I would put it at +1. According to Savage Species(not the best guide line but still) +1 LA for natural armor, +1 for unbalanced stats, -1 for small size. The HD should disappear with a class level as normal. All Gnome traits are lost as they are special qualities, same with Dwarf, Halfling and Elf effigies so presumably humans would also lose their traits. However as they are not listed, one cannot be certain and the human traits would not default to special qualities as far as I know, that is just the trend.

*Do note that the sacred guardian template lists the subtype as a special quality even though it normally is not and so it may be argued that they loose the subtype. Subtype effects are, however, listed as special qualities quite often and are lost no matter the interpretation. For example, a fire subtype's immunity to flame and vulnerability to cold is lost. This may allow you to qualify for some strange things, but generally shouldn't be that powerful.

It is never said how they age as far as I can see, so defaulting to human is a safe bet. However, one may also argue that you made them perfect and so they last longer(I would require a hefty craft check in the construct creation but allow up to elf age or so).

It is also never said whether or not these creatures are fertile and can breed. I would suggest that the character incorporate a few Book of Erotic Fantasy spells in construct creation to allow them to breed at least among themselves, with fey, dragons, demons, devils and celestials. The subtype should be a 50/50 chance in later generations. So if the starting population were all [Good] and [Law], the children would all be either [Good] or [Law] pending arcane, divine or bloodline intervention.

[Xuldarinar]

Perhaps I was not clear in my previous comment.

LA is like a non-ability here. Its like adding a -2 penalty to an undead creature's constitution or to an incorporeal creature's strength.

[Ruethgar]

Savage Species has guide lines for determining LA of creatures who normally have LA - or no listed LA. It is not a great guide, but it is workable.

[unseenmage]

Unless the Sacred Guardian template (which I am not familiar with) somehow gives a level adjustment to creatures with no level adjustment, they will be LA: -, because the Effigy template is LA: -.

If you want it to be playable, you'd need to discuss with your DM what an appropriate LA would be.

Perhaps I was not clear in my previous comment.

LA is like a non-ability here. Its like adding a -2 penalty to an undead creature's constitution or to an incorporeal creature's strength.

I apologize if I did not make myself clear.
I am asking for guidance in discerning the appropriate LA and aging rates for these creatures. (Among other things.) In the OP I stated that the DM is on board with the idea. This thread will be part of the dialogue we are actively having about this idea.

----------------------


Let's see.

Small Humanoid
Subtype: As Domain *
HD: 1d8
Speed: 20ft
Natural Armor: +3
Abilities: +4 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Cha, +4 Wis

Looks strong to me, I would put it at +1. According to Savage Species(not the best guide line but still) +1 LA for natural armor, +1 for unbalanced stats, -1 for small size. The HD should disappear with a class level as normal. All Gnome traits are lost as they are special qualities, same with Dwarf, Halfling and Elf effigies so presumably humans would also lose their traits. However as they are not listed, one cannot be certain and the human traits would not default to special qualities as far as I know, that is just the trend.

*Do note that the sacred guardian template lists the subtype as a special quality even though it normally is not and so it may be argued that they loose the subtype. Subtype effects are, however, listed as special qualities quite often and are lost no matter the interpretation. For example, a fire subtype's immunity to flame and vulnerability to cold is lost. This may allow you to qualify for some strange things, but generally shouldn't be that powerful.

It is never said how they age as far as I can see, so defaulting to human is a safe bet. However, one may also argue that you made them perfect and so they last longer(I would require a hefty craft check in the construct creation but allow up to elf age or so).

It is also never said whether or not these creatures are fertile and can breed. I would suggest that the character incorporate a few Book of Erotic Fantasy spells in construct creation to allow them to breed at least among themselves, with fey, dragons, demons, devils and celestials. The subtype should be a 50/50 chance in later generations. So if the starting population were all [Good] and [Law], the children would all be either [Good] or [Law] pending arcane, divine or bloodline intervention.

Thank you for the breakdown. DM and I discussed the breeding angle and the deity I'm apparently involving in this is taking care of it off screen. (Generally where we both prefer such matters to be taken care of in gaming.)
The various templates pass your alignment on to these creations, and with the incorporation of the Sacred Guardian Template in there it passes on your religious beliefs too. As the character is kinda going to mass produce these people for a while it is going to cause a largish shift in worship for my deity. As such he's going to step in and either put a stop to it, so as not to upset the other gods, or make use of it as more worshipers = more power.

Does anyone know what playable (meaning has a LA) race comes closest to matching the stats on these guys? Would be nice to compare and contrast.

[Coidzor]

Ok, they're based on gnomes. So start with the gnome aging as a base and adjust from there to taste.

If Ruethgar is correct, then they're not really worth anything other than an LA+1.

Why are you using Sacred Guardian anyway? It seems like everything gets lost in the process of making it into an Incarnate Construct. :smallconfused:

Your desire here seems more like you just want to homebrew up your own variant gnome off-shoot which are culturally religious zealots. So why not just do that instead?

[unseenmage]

Ok, they're based on gnomes. So start with the gnome aging as a base and adjust from there to taste.

If Ruethgar is correct, then they're not really worth anything other than an LA+1.

Why are you using Sacred Guardian anyway? It seems like everything gets lost in the process of making it into an Incarnate Construct. :smallconfused:

Your desire here seems more like you just want to homebrew up your own variant gnome off-shoot which are culturally religious zealots. So why not just do that instead?

It's because of what happened IC in our IRL game. My Techsmith/Cleric/Artificer had an army to defeat, and so he did. By mass producing 1HD Effigies of the locals (more than just gnomes by the way). Then, because he is a devout follower of Gond he made them into sentient religious constructs (Sacred Guardians).
Now he has his own private army which is attracting all the wrong kind of attention (all he wants is to study and build in peace, and yeah he should have thought of that before making himself a superpower).

His solution? Magic the Construct army into just normal people via the Incarnate Construct Template built in to some Repeating Magic Traps/or Spell Clocks.

One of the questions that came up is whether Sacred Guardians count towards a gods number of worshipers?
If so then I'm about to transform many guaranteed worshipers into potential worshipers.
If not then I'm still making a lot of humanoids who will tend towards my beliefs and who will have my alignment.
All of this has evidently sparked an idea in my DMs brain and Gond himself will be intervening somehow.

So yeah, it's kind of a mess. But a fun mess. :smallbiggrin:

[unseenmage]

Let's see.

Small Humanoid
Subtype: As Domain *
HD: 1d8
Speed: 20ft
Natural Armor: +3
Abilities: +4 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Cha, +4 Wis


I'm going over the various templates and from what I'm seeing these things get +4 Str from both Effigy and from Sacred Guardian netting them a +8 mod.

- Gnome +2 Con, -2 Str.
- Effigy +4 Str, -2 Dex, (Con becomes --) Wis 11, Cha 1
- Sacred Guardian Str +4, Dex +4, Int 10, Wis +4, Cha +4
- Incarnate Construct Con and Int become rolled, 4d6 drop lowest (average is 10 right?)

Final tally is +8 Str, +2 Dex, Con +0, Int +0, Wis +4, Cha -6
(arrived at by subtracting 10 from even stats and subtracting 11 from odd stats.)

[Ruethgar]

My apologies, I didn't have the Sacred Guardian template at the time and got the order mixed up when I went looking for it resulting in more charisma. We are, however both wrong about the strength. 4+4-2=6 not 4 or 8. Rather comical on a small creature.

So it is Str +6, Dex +2, Wis +4, Cha -6.

[unseenmage]

My apologies, I didn't have the Sacred Guardian template at the time and got the order mixed up when I went looking for it resulting in more charisma. We are, however both wrong about the strength. 4+4-2=6 not 4 or 8. Rather comical on a small creature.

So it is Str +6, Dex +2, Wis +4, Cha -6.

Where's the -2?
Nevermind, just looked at my notes as I responded and felt like a dummy. Sorry.



In your opinion is it still worth a net total of +1 Level Adjust?

Or even more usefully, would the Effigy+Sacred Guardian+Incarnate Construct combo be worth a net of +2?

.

[Ruethgar]

Still LA +1 I think, and wide open for Dragonborn since it would lose nothing.

[unseenmage]

Still LA +1 I think, and wide open for Dragonborn since it would lose nothing.

Huh, that is interesting. I'd planned on one of these "sons" to go all BBEG and having one return as a Dragonborn Necromancer sounds like just the thing.

When can a character buy off that +1 level adjustment?

[Ruethgar]

You need three class levels to buy off one LA and the XP price is related to your character level making bloodlines a great choice for lowering the cost and getting it payed off earlier.

[unseenmage]

You need three class levels to buy off one LA and the XP price is related to your character level making bloodlines a great choice for lowering the cost and getting it payed off earlier.

Bloodlines? I've heard them mentioned but how would they even work with a character who was a Construct?

[Ruethgar]

Flesh golems come to mind, where the construct would actually be built with the materials that might induce a bloodline. Technically there is no rule against non-living things having bloodline levels, you just have to make it sounds like it fits.

If you want something a little less gruesome than making Frankensteins, since your god will be involved with this race the celestial bloodline might not be out of the question. Or just holy magic seeping a little deeper into your creations than anticipated. Depending on the domains chosen, you could coerce the DM to allow a related bloodline to emerge, fire elemental for fire domain, devil for evil domain, vampire for undeath domain etc.

[unseenmage]

Flesh golems come to mind, where the construct would actually be built with the materials that might induce a bloodline. Technically there is no rule against it though, you just how to make it sounds like it fits.

If you want something a little less gruesome than making Frankensteins, since your god will be involved with this race the celestial bloodline might not be out of the question. Or just holy magic seeping a little deeper into your creations than anticipated.

Okay, I'm sold, where can these bloodlines be found?

[Ruethgar]

Bah, posted while I was editing. The bloodlines can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm). And I think their original book is Unearthed Arcana.

[unseenmage]

Bah, posted while I was editing. The bloodlines can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm). And I think their original book is Unearthed Arcana.

Hey, thanks for all your help. It's quite appreciated.
I'll definitely discuss the Bloodlines thing with my DM.

If you're curious here's the unfinished character sheet for the character this thread has resulted in. Please allow me to introduce Bnukaho dra Ahkehaan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=703897) first created son and heir of Syiaca dra Ahkehaan gnome Artificer Techsmith and Cleric of Gond.

[unseenmage]

The originating character only makes three generations of template stacked sons. The third one is a monster and so he stops.

What would the level adjustment be for generations 2 and three?

Gen two looks like this:
1 HD (replaced by class)
+14 Str
+4 Dex
+4 Wis (same for every generation)
-6 Cha (also same for every gen)
+3 Nat Armor (again same each gen)
20' speed
small size
speaks Gnome
no bonus languages
preferred class fighter

level Adjustment: ??



While gen 3 looks like this:
1 HD (replaced by class)
+22 Str
+6 Dex
+4 Wis (same for every generation)
-6 Cha (also same for every gen)
+3 Nat Armor (again same each gen)
20' speed
small size
speaks gnome
no bonus languages
preferred class fighter

Level Adjustment: ??