[D&D 3.5] Hellbred + Dragonborn Interaction

[Kevingway]

The more I stare at the Hellbred racial traits, the more my brain hurts. Hellbred do not actually gain ability score bonuses as normal races do, but rather, they gain ability scores based on specific racial traits that they have to choose from. One of these traits is extraordinary, and the other is supernatural. The reason I specify this is due to Dragonborn's specific mention of what is done with ability scores:

You retain your original racial ability modifiers and gain the ability modifiers of the dragonborn race.

All other racial traits (really, all other racial traits) are lost and/or replaced with those of the Dragonborn. However, the Hellbred racial ability bonuses are tied to racial traits that grant other benefits than simply these ability scores. How would such a template interact with the Hellbred in this instance? Either I could keep the ability score bonuses and eliminate the other aspects of the trait, or I lose everything due to these bonuses being tied to a trait where other things must be eliminated.

Furthermore, Hellbred gain a bonus feat. My suspicion is that, due to order of operations, the Dragonborn template would eliminate this feat before it can be allowed replacement as a dragon feat. Could someone confirm this for me?

Thanks!

[OldTrees1]

The feat replacement is only for feats that you retain after the transformation but no longer qualify for as a result of the transformation (loss of a prerequisite feat, reduced Dex or loss of a racial trait)

Example:
An elf commoner with Dex 13, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus(Longbow) and Dodge feats.

They lose their racial proficiency with Longbows. This means they non longer qualify for the Weapon Focus feat. Their Dex is reduced from 13 to 11. This means they no longer qualify for the Dodge feat. Since they no longer qualify for Dodge and Weapon Focus (as a result of the transformation) they can and must replace them.

When they become a Dragonborn they are allowed to replace 1 feat for a feat that requires dragonblood (and ignore any "1st level only" prerequisite for that feat). The elf can choose to replace the Improved Initiative feat or either of the new feats that replaced Weapon Focus and Dodge or even not use this option.

[Darrin]

How would such a template interact with the Hellbred in this instance? Either I could keep the ability score bonuses and eliminate the other aspects of the trait, or I lose everything due to these bonuses being tied to a trait where other things must be eliminated.


I'm not sure if there's a consensus on how to handle Dragonborn Hellbred, but the Hellbred's ability score modifiers are set when the Hellbred completes the Scourging. The Hellbred is allowed to choose his Infernal Aspect, but for mechanical purposes this is still the equivalent of being "created". Thus, I'd say whatever ability scores a Hellbred has after the Scourging are his "original" ability scores. I think the RAW and RAI on Dragonborn is somewhat clear: other than the Con +2/Dex -2, your ability scores remain unchanged, even though you lose the Infernal Aspect. Think of it more this way: a specific event happened in your past that raised/lowered your ability scores. On top of that, there are some ongoing effects that you still get as a result of that event. Becoming a Dragonborn removes the ongoing effects of Infernal Aspect, but the event that set your ability scores already happened and isn't removed.



Furthermore, Hellbred gain a bonus feat. My suspicion is that, due to order of operations, the Dragonborn template would eliminate this feat before it can be allowed replacement as a dragon feat. Could someone confirm this for me?


Yes, you lose Devil's Favor as a bonus feat. If you want to swap an existing feat with Dragon Tail/Wings, you need to use a feat from class levels (1st/3rd/6th/etc.) or granted as a class ability (Ranger = Track/Endurance, Wizard = Scribe Scroll, etc.).

[Kevingway]

Thanks, guys. That does help. It's just a frustrating scenario when Hellbred is like the only race that has that sort of racial flip-flop, but the flavor of a Dragonborn Hellbred is too good to pass up.