Overwhelmed by Spell Options

[FinnDarkblade]

Through an interesting turn of events in the 3.5 campaign I'm currently playing, my level 4 Beguiler has had added to his spell list all spells. All. Spells. Both Divine and Arcane. I can spontaneously cast any spell as long as I have a spell slot of the appropriate level. I have confirmed this with the DM and this is the correct interpretation. Can anyone point me to some really good guides that have analyzed all(or at least most) of the 3.5 spells? I'm so overwhelmed with options that I don't even know where to start.

*edit* My DM changed the ability a bit. Instead of all the arcane and divine spells ever, I just had all cleric spells added to my normal Beguiler spell list. So I don't get any additional arcane spells beyond what I can get through Advanced Learning and Shadowcraft Mage shenanigans.

[Telonius]

That's ... wow.

First off, how did this happen? Knowing nothing other than what you've written, this just has to be some sort of a trap or a plot hook, and can't possibly be permanent. You're preparing and casting them all as though they were arcane Beguiler spells, right? (i.e. all intelligence based, needing 10+spell level Int, and save DC based on Int?) That will matter a bit, in that some prestige classes require specifically Divine spellcasting.

Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9619.0) a list of pretty good Wizard spells.

[Squirrel_Dude]

One that has analyzed all spells? Probably not. I'd recommend looking for a cleric guide, a wizard guide, and a Druid guide.

Here is what I could come up with so far.
Wizard Guide: Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)
Cleric Guide: Part 5, Spells (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.msg8434#msg8434)
Druid, Revisiting Spells for the Optimized (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1558.0)

[FinnDarkblade]

Telonius: It was granted to me by a god as aid for the quest we're doing. The other players were also given abilities and 2 of them apparently fledgling saints or something like that. The word "Exalted" was mentioned. They are spontaneously cast with Intelligence as the dominant score, but I'm not sure if divine spells will count as arcane when I cast them. Given the situation with the gods I would assume they'll still count as divine.
Thanks for the link. It's a bit light but it's a start.
Squirrel_Dude: Thanks, I have been looking at the wizard link but I didn't have the cleric handbook.

[Norin]

Hah! That is just crazy. Not trying to be mean here but does your DM lack experience in long running games, or even mid to high level ones?

You are now tier X. Grats! ;)

[FinnDarkblade]

Hah! That is just crazy. Not trying to be mean here but does your DM lack experience in long running games, or even mid to high level ones?

You are now tier X. Grats! ;)

He actually does have experience, it's just that the people in his group extremely undervalue magic-users, especially arcane full-casters. I'm going to try not to break the game/universe over my little gnomish knee but the temptation to show him exactly why a spontaneous caster with access to all spells ever is a horrendous idea is definitely there.

[FinnDarkblade]

Okay, here's an update on the spell list thing. My DM changed it so that for arcane spells I'm still like a normal Beguiler. For divine spells I cast as a cleric of the same CL, although I'm still a spontaneous caster and Intelligence is still the determining ability score.

[Rebel7284]

If a spell appears on multiple spell lists at different levels, do you gain acess to all its versions or do you use the default list order rules? Ie: can you use haste as a level 1 spell from the trapsmith list?

[holywhippet]

You mean you only have access to the beguiler list for arcane spells, and the cleric list for divine spells? If you have access to all divine spells I'd suggest looking at this archivist handbook as having a lot of divine spells (and technically the arcane ones) is their speciality: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=185.0

[FinnDarkblade]

If a spell appears on multiple spell lists at different levels, do you gain acess to all its versions or do you use the default list order rules? Ie: can you use haste as a level 1 spell from the trapsmith list?

I cast divine spells as a cleric, and arcane spells as a beguiler, so it'll be whatever level the spell is for those classes. Do beguiler and cleric share any spells that aren't the same level for both?

[FinnDarkblade]

You mean you only have access to the beguiler list for arcane spells, and the cleric list for divine spells?

Yeah, that's it exactly. And thanks for the archivist link, that looks really helpful.

[nedz]

You're now Tier 0.
Cast any spell you like without preparation.
Or does your DM mean that you have to prepare the Cleric spells ?
(Spontaneous Clerics do exist, though they normally would only know (1+2x domain) 2nd level spells at level 4)
This would be considerably weaker, well Tier 1.

[FinnDarkblade]

You're now Tier 0.
Cast any spell you like without preparation.
Or does your DM mean that you have to prepare the Cleric spells ?
(Spontaneous Clerics do exist, though they normally would only know (1+2x domain) 2nd level spells at level 4)
This would be considerably weaker, well Tier 1.

No, it's not the alternate spontaneous Cleric. It's more like I'm a regular Beguiler who has had all Cleric spells added to his spell list. My first post(which I will now correct) said that I could spontaneously cast all arcane and divine spells, but the DM changed that to just adding all Cleric spells. So, ironically, I'm now an arcane caster who's far better at using divine magic than arcane magic and is a more versatile divine spellcaster than a Cleric.

[Squirrel_Dude]

So, just the last clarification question: What about domain spells?

[Snowbluff]

He actually does have experience, it's just that the people in his group extremely undervalue magic-users, especially arcane full-casters. I'm going to try not to break the game/universe over my little gnomish knee but the temptation to show him exactly why a spontaneous caster with access to all spells ever is a horrendous idea is definitely there.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

Beguiler/RainbowServant10 with Versatile Spellcaster, Arcane Preparation, and Magical Training. That should cover most of them. :smalltongue:

[FinnDarkblade]

So, just the last clarification question: What about domain spells?

I'm not actually a cleric so I don't have any domains. I basically just take the regular Cleric spell list and tack it onto the Beguiler spell list. I don't get these spells from any particular deity either as far as I can tell, because I did let the DM know beforehand that my character doesn't actually worship any of the gods.

[FinnDarkblade]

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

Beguiler/RainbowServant10 with Versatile Spellcaster, Arcane Preparation, and Magical Training. That should cover most of them. :smalltongue:

Right, I've basically got the 10th level ability of the Rainbow Servant grafted onto my character. I'm a gnome though, so Magical Training is out. Arcane Preparation might be worth looking into though.

[Snowbluff]

Yes, if it can get you Sanctified and Corrupt spells. :smallsmile:

[FinnDarkblade]

Yes, if it can get you Sanctified and Corrupt spells. :smallsmile:

I am unfortunately LN, so no sanctified or corrupt spells for me. :smallsigh:

[Snowbluff]

I am unfortunately LN, so no sanctified or corrupt spells for me. :smallsigh:

Hm...

Reading the descriptions, Corrupt spells have no alignment requirements, and Sanctified spells can only not be cast by evil characters. But if you think they don't mesh with your character, fine. :smallsmile:

[nedz]

So basically, whenever a situation comes up you pull out the PH and the SpC etc. and see what beguiler or cleric spells will be most useful.

Have fun.

[Emperor Tippy]

A Psion can get every single spell and power in the entire game onto his list of Power's Known for a total initial investment of less than 4,000 GP.

The only thing better is to do it with a magic mantle Ardent because then you can use all of the nice metamagic feats that don't have psionic equivalents (and technically do so without having to expend psionic focus).

[Snowbluff]

A Psion can get every single spell and power in the entire game onto his list of Power's Known for a total initial investment of less than 4,000 GP.

The only thing better is to do it with a magic mantle Ardent because then you can use all of the nice metamagic feats that don't have psionic equivalents (and technically do so without having to expend psionic focus).
I like how off topic this feels.

Are you talking about the StP Erudite? Too bad about the limit of unique powers... as I understand it, at least. Still, Beguiler only have so many spell slots per day per level, so I guess there isn't much of a difference. :smalltongue:

[FinnDarkblade]

Hm...

Reading the descriptions, Corrupt spells have no alignment requirements, and Sanctified spells can only not be cast by evil characters. But if you think they don't mesh with your character, fine. :smallsmile:

Are you talking about the metamagic feats or the domains?

[Sir Chuckles]

Smash the universe. SMASH IT. TO MINISCULE PIECES.

But yes, a general overview of each comprehensive guide to individual spellcasters is exactly what you need.
Start taking metamagic feats, obtain Int boosting items, and realize that, even at 4th level, you can cast 2nd level spells. Unleash the summonings and Bulls Strengths.

Once you start getting higher levels, you can begin to combine spells that normally wouldn't be combined to create asinine effects. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but the moment will spur creativity. Pull up, and keep up, the spell Handbook, get a general idea of what spells do what.

[Emperor Tippy]

I like how off topic this feels.

Are you talking about the StP Erudite? Too bad about the limit of unique powers... as I understand it, at least. Still, Beguiler only have so many spell slots per day per level, so I guess there isn't much of a difference. :smalltongue:

No, spell to power erudite's are for suckers. Smart people play a Psion or Magic Mantle Ardent (they both have advantages and disadvantages) and then use an Ice Assassin Scroll to get a loyal Erudite who has the powers that they want along with Psychic Chiguery to pass all of those powers on over to the Psion.

Better than a StP Erudite in every way.

Combine with Midnight Augmentation Bestow Power and your Psion (or Ardent) has effectively unlimited PP as well. It's why the Ardent is technically the most powerful base class in D&D 3.5.

[TaiLiu]

Are you talking about the metamagic feats or the domains?
They're talking about the spells. (Though I think Sanctified spells need to be prepared.)

[FinnDarkblade]

They're talking about the spells. (Though I think Sanctified spells need to be prepared.)

Whoops, I was looking at the consecrate spell feat. As per BoED, clerics can spontaneously cast Sanctified spells. Now, I'm not technically a Cleric but I'm pretty sure having the cleric spell list would let me do that, especially since I'll already be spontaneously casting cleric spells.

[Snowbluff]

Are you talking about the metamagic feats or the domains?
Neither! Corrupt and Sanctified spells are spells found in Book or Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds. They can only be cast by casters capable of preparing spells, and deal ability damage to the caster, but they have a few gems that I think are worth it.

No, spell to power erudite's are for suckers. Smart people play a Psion or Magic Mantle Ardent (they both have advantages and disadvantages) and then use an Ice Assassin Scroll to get a loyal Erudite who has the powers that they want along with Psychic Chiguery to pass all of those powers on over to the Psion.

Better than a StP Erudite in every way.

Combine with Midnight Augmentation Bestow Power and your Psion (or Ardent) has effectively unlimited PP as well. It's why the Ardent is technically the most powerful base class in D&D 3.5.
I am not sure how that makes Erudites for suckers, since you need an Erudite to do it. :smalltongue:

Still this is a good option.

Midnight Augmentation is pretty sweet. Ardents don't need it, thanks to Dominant Ideal and being able to swap powers in mantles, but it's Ardent. I think I want to make an Ardent blaster sometime, for the giggles.

[FinnDarkblade]

Neither! Corrupt and Sanctified spells are spells found in Book or Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds. They can only be cast by casters capable of preparing spells, and deal ability damage to the caster, but they have a few gems that I think are worth it.

Both do have to be prepared, but the BoED includes a caveat that clerics can spontaneously cast Sanctified spells just like they can spontaneously cast cure wounds spells.

[TaiLiu]

Now, I'm not technically a Cleric but I'm pretty sure having the cleric spell list would let me do that, especially since I'll already be spontaneously casting cleric spells.
That depends on the wording your DM gave you, I suppose.

[nedz]

... and Shadowcraft Mage shenanigans.

Wait, what ?
You never mentioned this earlier.

Clerics make very good melee characters but since beguilers don't I suspect that your physical stats are poor and so this option is out — unless your stats are all 18's or something ?

Clerics can make quite good skill monkeys, but you're a beguiler anyway.

I'd consider ignoring the Cleric stuff, apart from the times you actually need it, and focus on playing the Beguiler you wanted to in the first place. Level 4 Clerics can get badgered into being healbots if you're not careful anyway.

[gooddragon1]

A Psion can get every single spell and power in the entire game onto his list of Power's Known for a total initial investment of less than 4,000 GP.

The only thing better is to do it with a magic mantle Ardent because then you can use all of the nice metamagic feats that don't have psionic equivalents (and technically do so without having to expend psionic focus).

I'd love to know the mechanics behind this in a spoiler. As well as the level you can attain it.

[FinnDarkblade]

Wait, what ?
You never mentioned this earlier.

Clerics make very good melee characters but since beguilers don't I suspect that your physical stats are poor and so this option is out — unless your stats are all 18's or something ?

Clerics can make quite good skill monkeys, but you're a beguiler anyway.

I'd consider ignoring the Cleric stuff, apart from the times you actually need it, and focus on playing the Beguiler you wanted to in the first place. Level 4 Clerics can get badgered into being healbots if you're not careful anyway.

Yeah, my STR is an 8, so not much going on there. In a recent session I was hit by a ray of enfeeblement and a reduce person, so that was fun. I've actually completely stopped carrying weapons.

[Sir Chuckles]

Yeah, my STR is an 8, so not much going on there. In a recent session I was hit by a ray of enfeeblement and a reduce person, so that was fun. I've actually completely stopped carrying weapons.

Carry a club, at least. Maybe a quarterstaff.
Shillelagh might save your squishy life.

[nedz]

Carry a club, at least. Maybe a quarterstaff.
Shillelagh might save your squishy life.

Unfortunately Shillelagh is a Druid spell, so that will be one of the few that aren't available.

[FinnDarkblade]

Carry a club, at least. Maybe a quarterstaff.
Shillelagh might save your squishy life.

It's a bit amusing actually. When I had weapons I never even got the chance to use them. The two fights I've been in that I couldn't just immediately solve with magic both had me get one-shotted by critical hits, one of them before I could even wake up(our camp was ambushed and the ranger who was on guard duty decided not to wake anyone up).

[JaronK]

If it helps, here's a list of spells the level 12 Archivist I'm playing is using. I've cut them down to level 2 and below, but it might give you a rough idea of what counts as a decent set of spells. Note that my character can ignore material components, so some spells are good for me that won't work so well for you. Additionally, Archivists can't access the Trapsmith spell list, which I strongly recommend you look at (it's got a lot of powerful spells at much lower level). Note also that these are my backup spells, as it's too hard to copy my standard use spells from my character sheet, but the basics you'd want there include Glitterdust, Alter Self, Guidance of the Avatar, and Black Sand. Also consider Animate Dead, which is level 2 off the Death Master spell list.

Bless Water (Clr 1, Healer 1), Holy Defense [War] (Clr 2)

Disguise Self (Trickery 1), Command Undead (Undead 2), Blade of Pain and Fear (Deathbound 2), Ghoul Glyph (Hunger 2), Secret Page (Rune 2)

Alarm (Rng 1, Urban Druid 1, Wealth 1), Guided Shot (Rng 1), Hawkeye (Rng 1, Dru 1), Hunter's Mercy (Rng 1), Lay of the Land (Rng 1), Locate City (Rng 1), Longstrider (Rng 1, Dru 1), Primal Hunter (Ranger 1), Smell of Fear (Rng 1), Arrow Storm (Rng 2), Hunter's Eye (Rng 2), Primal Instinct (Ranger 2)

Soul of Order (Pal 1), Warning Shout (Pal 1), Cloak of Bravery (Pal 2), Righteous Fury (Pal 2)

Demoncall (Blackguard 2, Pious Templar 2),

Web (Adept 2), Scorching Ray (Adept 2)Tongues (Adept 3, Commerce 3, Emissary of Barachiel 2)

Agasha's Touch (Druid 0, Shaman 0, Shugenja 0), Naturewatch (Dru 0), Arm (Dru 1), Aspect of the Wolf (Dru 1, Rng 1), Camouflage (Dru 1), Deep Breath (Dru 1), Flawless Navigation (Dru 1), Keen Hearing (Dru 1), Snowsight (Dru 1, Rng 1), Entangle (Dru 1 or Rng 1), Pass Without Trace (Shugenja 1, Druid 1, Ranger 1), Speak With Animals (Healer 1, Drd 1, Rng 1), Blinding Spittle (Dru 2), Creeping Cold (Dru 2), Downdraft (Dru 2), Frostbreath (Dru 2), Heart of Air (Dru 2), Kelpstrand (Dru 2), Mass Camouflage (Dru 2), Master Air (Dru 2), Scent (Dru 2, Rng 2), Stonescreen (Dru 2), Wild Instincts (Dru 2), Wood Shape (Dru 2, Artifice 2, Craft 2)

Create Spring (Shaman 2)

Appraising Touch (Brd 1), Feather Footfalls (Brd 1), Friendly Face (Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1), Immediate Assistance (Brd 1), Sticky Fingers (Brd 1), Battle Hymn (Brd 2), Beckoning Call (Brd 2, Temptation 2), Benten's Touch (Brd 2), Good Luck (Brd 2), Intuit Destination (Brd 2), Misdirection (Brd 2)

Awaken the Spirit (Air Shugenja 1), Disguise Self (Shugenja 1, Consecrated Harrier 1), Quiescence of Air (Any Shugenja 1), Whispers of Nothingness (Any Shugenja 1), Horse's Nose (Water Shugenja 2)

A Moment Ago (Sor/Wiz 1), Aberrate (Sor/Wiz 1) Dorama’s Battle Ward (Sor/Wiz 1), Clothier's Closet (Sor/Wiz 2), Create Magic Tattoo (Sor/Wiz 2), Darsson's Chilling Chamber (Sor/Wiz 2), Darsson's Fiery Furnace (Sor/Wiz 2), Ray of Stupidity (Sor/Wiz 2), Suffer the Flesh (Sor/Wiz 2)

Heat Water (Clr 0), Resize (Clr 0)

Audible Artisan (Clr 1), Detect Violence (Clr 1), Extract Drug (Clr 1), Graced By Saints (Clr 1), Holy Defense (Clr 1, Pal 1), Identify (Clo Clr 1), Sacrificial Skill (Clr 1), Sign (Clr 1), Traveler's Shoes (Clr 1), Unseen Servant (Clo Clr 1), Witness to the True (Clr 1),

Avoid Planar Effects (Clr 2), Benediction (Clr 2), Communal Chanel (Clr 2), Darkness (Clr 2), Desecrate (Clr 2), Eagle's Splendor (Clr 2), Elation (Clr 2), Enhance Weapons (Clr 2), Phade's Fearsome Aspect (Clr 2), Fertility (Clr 2), Festival Feast (Clr 2), Fox's Cunning (Clo Clr 2), Guidance of the Avatar (Cleric 2), Insignia of Alarm (Clr 2), Lahm's Finger Darts (Corrupt 2), Lighten Load (Clr 2), Locate Touchstone (Clr 2, Brd 1, Dru 1), Lore of the Gods (Clr 2), Obscuring Snow (Clr 2), Veil of Shadow (Clr 2), Wither Limb (Clr 2), Zone of Truth (Clr 2)

JaronK

[FinnDarkblade]

Mkay, a lot of those are on the list I've been putting together, but not all of those Cleric spells/level 2 Cleric spells.
And if I were the sort, this would be the point where I would begin fanboying because JaronK commented on one of my posts. :smalltongue:

[Sir Chuckles]

It's a bit amusing actually. When I had weapons I never even got the chance to use them. The two fights I've been in that I couldn't just immediately solve with magic both had me get one-shotted by critical hits, one of them before I could even wake up(our camp was ambushed and the ranger who was on guard duty decided not to wake anyone up).

Alarm.
Or, better yet, take a Creation feat, I believe there is a bedroll that has alarm on it.

[sumkidy]

-Wizards of the Coast's "Spell Compendium"

I also found this thread helpful
- http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185665

Quick referencing: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spells

[Psyren]

I'd love to know the mechanics behind this in a spoiler. As well as the level you can attain it.

It involves your DM being stupid accommodating enough to have an epic-level StP Erudite with every spell/power in the game already in his head (along with Psychic Chirurgery) putzing around in the world somewhere so you can copy him and have him teach you everything he knows.

@ OP: As others have said, your best bet is just to crack open a Cleric handbook and Beguiler handbook and alt-tab between them during the game.

[FinnDarkblade]

What I've been doing so far is going through the cleric handbooks and looking at D&D Tools (http://http://dndtools.eu/) and plugging all the spells that looked good as extras to the Beguiler's spell list in SpellGen 2. It's a program that lets you build spell lists that can be saved as a pdf and even calculates saves, range, damage, etc.

[Snowbluff]

I'd love to know the mechanics behind this in a spoiler. As well as the level you can attain it.
It's quite simple.

1) Find StP Erudite. He knows powers of spells. Collect sample.
2) Use sample to create Ice Assassin.
3) Cast Fusion on the Ice Assassin. You know the Erudite's powers (spells) now.
4) Make it permanent (probably with Reality Revision).

It's simple.