The best way to start an evil theocracy

[Macros]

Hello Playgrounders, I come to you today in hope you can share your collective wisdom with me.

We started a 3.5 campaign in an homebrew setting, which could be summed up by "If you want to live, stay in towns. It's dangerous out there." Basically, once you put a step outside, everything is trying to kill you, so most of the remaining civilization huddles in fortified cities, with non-stop fighting to keep some trade routes open. It often means working with limted ressources.

I'm playing an Aasimar cleric (level 3) worshipping devils. What can I say, they have a good healthcare plan. On the other hand, I do everything in my power to appear like a perfectly nice and reasonable guy, which so far works reasonably well, even if some people can't help but think that the fact I'm quite vague on what I'm worshipping exactly does not bode well. But well, a reasonable charisma, a couple of points in bluff, and I can keep going.

I can't help but think the last scenario provided me with an interesting opportunity. First, I learned that in the city we're currently in (and it seems we're here to stay), there's absolutely no organized churche or temple, which can give me a sweet monopoly on spiritual matters. Then, I managed to acquire a small house (it involved illegal gambling, alchemical decoctions and badgers, don't ask), nothing too fancy - really, calling it a house is giving it more credit than it deserves - but it seems like a good place to set up a small worshipping place. Next step ? Take over the world, of course ! Oh, well, the city would be a good first step.

Now, I have a couple ideas to begin with. Offering free healings to those who desire it seems like a good start to build up some good-will and gaining some followers in the process. Throw in the mix vague promises about order, protection from the big bad things outside and our duty to bring civilization to those who reject it, and I guess I can have a moderately attractive rethoric there. But so far, it remains quite theoretical.

One advantage I have is that most of the group is pretty much on board with it. Our half-orc barbarian decided I was a pretty cool guy - especially since my gambling scheme provided him with a lot of gold - and I intend to keep it that way, I have a philosophical agreement with our monk, lawful evil to lawful evil, and the bard seems willing, even if he's a bit too impulsive to be entirely trusted. My relations with our sorcerer is a bit more complicated, but I believe she can come around if I expose the potential gains of our course of action.

So here we are. If you were to plot a take-over, how would you go about it ? A couple more levels can't hurt, I guess, but since it's likely going to be a long-term project, I'd like to get on it as soon as possible. All advices are welcome !

PS : oh, and sorry for grammatical mistakes in there, just know that I'm improving ! I hope.

[Ortesk]

You have gumption, props for you on that


If i wanted to take over the world, here's how i would do it with your group.

Make you some gold and buy a business. Be generous boss's, give them rights, days off, fair wages. Basically create your own union thing, remmeber dnd is midevil. So class systems are a thing

The bard and sorceror work hard charming, seducing, blackmailing, ect other business owners until you start a monopoly and earn enough to buy more business's

The barbarian acts like he's head honcho, he's the peoples champion. The mans Man so to speak

Your cleric, well he's the brains. He quietly moves his pawns around the board, slowly taking over the worlds economy and giving people more wealth than they usually could have and equality


The monk, well he's a hit man of sorts. Some people wont be bought. So they die


With this, in probably a year your control the world using DnD business ideas, now you wont have a huge surplus of gold (You spend it buying more business and paying people more, making you beloved) But you have the heart of the people. Force a rebellion. The government have not protected these commen men, they didnt see them safe, you did. You think there be loyal to the crown or to you? when 99% rise up (Workers, family, Mercs you paid to kill beasties, ect) what will the kings men do? There back down

[Emperor Tippy]

What are your domains and what devil do you worship?

First though, max Diplomacy and (probably) Perform (Oratory). At this low a level you start at the personal, one on one, level. Use Diplomacy and Perform to get people to Friendly and convince them to come and help out/join your church. Start by focusing on the good bits and leave out the evil bits "We are a faith that advocates keeping your word once given, respecting your religious/social/political superiors, and self reliance." is a much easier sell than "We are the church of damning your soul to eternal torture, rules lawyering, sadism, and burning puppies at the stake for rewards."

Check out the Fiendish Codex 2 as it gives a fair bit of information on how devils organize cults and religions.

[ArcturusV]

Less on the Character Build Side, and more on the Character Interaction side, as I feel that's my relative strength on an issue like this.

As I see your goal: Domination by a corrupt theocracy based around Devil Worship (Well, maybe not 'corrupt', I imagine a good lawful evil government is fairly efficient and orderly. Leave corruption to Demon spawn).

Your primary obstacles that I could see coming up in the situation you're in:

1) Local authority. I imagine the town has one. No matter how "good" you are, how popular, etc, you can't just expect them to hand over the reins of power without doing something to provoke it in a more overt manner than just asking.

2) The chaos outside the walls. This isn't a direct threat to you, as they won't really be acting against you... but it's a wild card that needs to be dealt with in one manner or another eventually. You can't start world domination from a besieged status.

3) The eventual arrival of goody-two-shoes punks and paladins. Just because they aren't in your city now, doesn't mean they won't eventually. Particularly if you build a reputation as some goodly force of order. You gotta expect at some point Paladins, good aligned clerics, etc, are going to flock to you, and how to deal with it.

If you're going for World Domination, you can't start playing penny ante like that. "heal the sick" as a means of propaganda doesn't suit your goals. Thankfully you have a Bard, and they're always good for propaganda machines, go delegate him to being your PR man.

But you need a more overt action that is both "Good" and makes headlines. The good news is that you're adventurers so this sort of thing is going to fall into your lap. Where I'd start is the chief problem that is facing the town. Contact with the rest of the world. Sure, the occasional caravan gets through (probably with some losses among it's guard, etc). If you can establish dependable, relatively safe travel between City A, and it's nearest neighbor... not only have you achieved a great coup for your Church of the Shiny Pants or whatever, it also expands your grip a bit more.

How you accomplish this is an optimization question. There's lots of things you could do. For example, depending on your level just setting up a Teleportation Circle could apply. If you're lower level than that, you can play into your Devil cultist fervor by sacrificing someone using the sacrifice rules in BoVDs to get a devil to pop a wish into your lap, get a scroll of Teleportation Circle out of it (That result can be done at fairly low level, I think I got it at level 5 myself without really needing a huge crowd). Use some of that bluff and bard to play it up as divine favor/intervention that has granted you that boon that normally you (And no one else apparently considering the world) can cast.

The how doesn't matter so much. Go genocide every monster along the main road between them. Make peace with one of the monster clans and turn them into your thrall... or one of my favorites, stage events so monster clan A and monster clan B go to war with each other and have more pressing concerns than harassing caravans.

But the end result? You have material power (Wealth as tribute/tolls/taxes from whatever way you established contact). You have political power (As someone who pulled a miracle out of their ass and repelled/outsmarted the darkness you'll be pretty damned popular). And if you managed to game the monsters/clans out there you also have a Cat's Paw waiting for you at a later time.

Having established some safety, you eliminate the Wildcard Monster problem. You're gaining favor and power. Don't dragon up and horde your coin. As you get wealth from the trade route you opened (And you should be. Go ahead, establish a Hero of the World tax or whatever to use the road you keep open. Doubt anyone is gonna blink twice at it), invest it in the town. Don't just stockpile it under your alter. Give it to craftsmen, artisans, sages, helping them flourish and create, which raises the standard of living in the city, and by being their patron gives you again, more leverage, more contacts, etc. Hell, just being the patron and investor behind all the Innkeepers in town gives you Paladin/Cleric/Hero insurance, as they will end up quite rightly on your side and maybe tell you something like "Oh this grim warrior type guy came into town and started asking questions about you"... warning! It's a good thing when you're evil. Add in the "simple" work at this time, doing things like Consecrating areas, Forbiddence against certain monster types, etc. Don't go for petty healing when you can do long term works that people are reminded of constantly and serve to improve the city itself. Make magic items to give to the guards so that they can defend the city better, make items that make life a bit easier to live like a "bath house" that is just a place where you keep items of continual Prestidigitation.

Next step is to expand. You cleared out some area for the road most likely (Or have the wealth and power now to afford to). You want to give a message of hope and the future as you build your cage around the hearts and minds of the populace. In a world that has gone to hell, where people are besieged and have been wallowing in isolation and terror? Start a new town. It's what I'd go... and it's a simple step. Invite people from both towns you linked to join you in building a new place. Design it yourself so that it subtly give praise to your dark masters... Infernal lay out so when viewed on a map there just happens to be an "unholy symbol" pattern to the streets, etc? Knowing people... when given the chance for a new start, under the protection of a charismatic, powerful Holy Leader... and abandon a place that they had been looking at as a rat trap, a cage they were rotting away in? They'll jump at it. Establish your new order, laws as the devils hand down, a new society that is flourishing under your wealth and guidance.

And in the process you probably pissed off both of the neighboring cities as the people you were patrons of, all their best and brightest, honest citizens who were attracted to your message and reputation, etc, flee their homes to join you. You are going to piss them off. But you're also in position to do something about it at this point in time.

Because your Bard should be in overdrive. You and your companions are freakin' heroes unlike the world's seen in a while. Good, courageous men who did the impossible. If they move against you, there should be rumblings. Go and piss them off. Taunt them. Do everything you can behind the scenes to piss them off. Including calling in debts those cities may have, raising your "Road tax", cutting off their trade, demanding tribute from their weak cities, etc. Nothing as overt as marching armies against them. You want them to go overboard and try to do something overt to you first.

Because at the point where they start sending knights to box your ears in and try to bring the upstart into line? You can just hold out your hands and say "Look what these jealous, petty bastards are doing! Their citizens starve and are blighted because of the stubborn pride of their lords, while you flourish under my divine guidance. I cannot abide by this travesty. I shall go to speak with them, and hopefully bring the light of reason to their minds." ... then go there and either bully them into surrendering... or just slit their throats. They already made a mistake they're not going to recover from.

At this point you functionally control 3 cities, can appoint your teammates as various governors to help handle the situation. And you have a solid framework for expanding the empire by the same means. And the larger your empire gets, the easier it is to do as your resources expand, and logically your power, character wise as individuals, is growing.

Your big worry is the Paladin like people coming to kick your ass. But by the time you're going overt, slitting people's throats for not following your demands... everyone thinks you're a huge hero anyway. Don't go overt on the slaughter, mayhem, and cackling. You're lawful evil, use that restraint. The one thing most likely to foil would be heroes, rabble rousers, etc, is a well fed, happy populace who is content in their safety and utterly certain of the divine right and goodness of their Overlord.

[Morithias]

Don't be evil.

No seriously that's the best way.

Think about the world you're in, make it clear that the "Good gods" and angels are willing to let the suffering continue.

Play them against the gods asking them classic religious questions, like why they do not aid in time of trouble. Point out that all they do is grant spells, and that every religion even the evil one does that, but this new religion plans to finally step in and end the chaos, and then proceed to do just that.

Of course you don't tell them it'll end with them in Baator and under a dictatorship.

[Macros]

Well, I went with Asmodeus (picking the head honcho seemed like a good idea), which we gave the Evil, Law, Fire and War domain. So far, i picked up Fire and War.

Maxing diplomacy seemed like a safe bet, so that's exactly what I did. Did not thought about Perform (Oratory) though, that's a good idea. I would delegate the duty to the bard, but I wouldn't trust him to not screw this up, to be frank. :smallamused:


Start by focusing on the good bits and leave out the evil bits "We are a faith that advocates keeping your word once given, respecting your religious/social/political superiors, and self reliance." is a much easier sell than "We are the church of damning your soul to eternal torture, rules lawyering, sadism, and burning puppies at the stake for rewards."

That's pretty much what I tried to do, even before having the idea of starting a campaign of mass-conversion. But I'd like to see a PR plan focusing on this second set of attributes, though. ("do you hate puppies ? So do we!"). And thanks for the codex reference, I'll look it up.

@Ortesk : I like the idea of using business as a way to ensure supremacy. Seems highly doable, with all the junk we pick up through our adventures, not making a lot of profit is not really a problem (not in it for the gold, after all), and it seems like it has a good chance of working.

EDIT : and wow, lots of advice came in, thanks !

Concerning future obstacles :

1) local authorities usually are the heads of warrior's guilds, since they are the one doing the fighting to keep the lands safe-ish. So yeah, I don't expect them to take me trying to houst them from their positions quietly. What I want to try is working with their grunts, so that when the time come, a decent portion of them join my side.
2) I see the chaos outside as an opportunity, to be honest. When you're in a crapsack world, people are more willing to listen to a "We can change the world ! Follow me !" speech. Now, your suggestion to try to reason with them might not be easy to implement (hard to reason with a pack of demonic fire wolves), but some denizens might be willing to see to reason. I'll take every opportunity I can get.
3) Good followers are a bit of a wild card, I admit. So far, we encountered none, which doesn't mean they're not waiting somewhere. I can only hope that when they do show up, I'd have a good-enough reputation to make eventual claims about me being evil looking like petty jealousy. And then kill them all. Bloody do-gooders. Well, we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

[Angelalex242]

Of course, it's possible you won't be able to stop those Holy Avengers of Righteousness. In such a case, may I recommend setting up a contingency that if you die, a Gate to Baator opens. Then, the happy, well fed populace sees your death triggering doom, doom, everywhere, led by nothing less then Pit Fiends. Might give them further motivation to protect you. You have restraint. Pit Fiends, not so much.

The other key point to remember is 'violence against good is not good.' As such, try to put as many genuinely good (as in, their alignment is written good on their character sheets good) people between you and holy avengers as possible. If they just hack those people out of the way, they'll be powers free by the time they get to you. That doesn't stop teir 1s from simply bypassing such obstacles with teleport spells, but it does prevent people just smashing in the front gate and slaughtering your guards. Always, Always, Always have about 10 different ways an incoming Paladin or good aligned cleric could lose his powers on his way to smite you. If the number ever dips to 9, come up with a new one, full stop. It is your new top priority.

Also, read the Book of Exalted Deeds PDF. Thrice. It will tell you what those holy types can do and cannot do. "Greater Good" dilemmas don't work, as they'll tell you to go screw yourself. Surrender DOES work, as they must accept surrender when offered. Lack of mercy is one of the quickest ways to be powers free.

[Morithias]

2) I see the chaos outside as an opportunity, to be honest. When you're in a crapsack world, people are more willing to listen to a "We can change the world ! Follow me !" speech. Now, your suggestion to try to reason with them might not be easy to implement (hard to reason with a pack of demonic fire wolves), but some denizens might be willing to see to reason. I'll take every opportunity I can get.

Yeah they'll listen, and then when you back it up by ENDING the chaos, they'll be so grateful you'll easily be able to put yourself in power banking on having done such a deed.

[Clistenes]

Well, if there aren't powerful clerics or wizards around, you can keep pretending you are the servant of a nice deity. There are spells that can conceal your alignment aura.

If there aren't other temples around, you will naturally gain power over the people. Once you are important enough, you can ferret your way into the city council or whatever, claiming that the will of the gods must be expressed there.

You have two obstacles:

1.-People will eventually demand that you ordain more clerics. Some people will want to become clerics. You can make some of them into acolytes without telling who is their true master, and you can bring other hellish clerics from outside, but eventually people will wonder why you never recruit new clerics among them.

You will eventually have to recruit new clerics among the locals, and it will be very difficult because you will need novices who are popular and well-liked but utterly evil.

Could you recruit lawful neutral clerics without telling them that their patron is a devil? How does that work in your campaign?

2.-You will have to offer something very good to your patron devil in exchange for the power he grants you. Making yourself powerful while passing for a good cleric won't do it. You will have to eventually make people worship your patron, or periodically sacrifice and offer their souls to him.

I guess you could trick them all, developing some "passing rites" and "funerary rites" to capture the souls of dying and recently dead people, pretending that they help the sould reach the Higher Planes, but in fact sending them to your master.

You could also develop an alternative image and name for your patron, so people worship him without learning of his devilish nature. Dispater, for example, means "Father God", and he could be a god of Safety, Security, Towers, Shields, Armor and Fortifications.

If your patron is Baalzebul, you could use his angel name, Triel, and claim that he's a deity of Order, Perfection, Beauty, Cities and Insects (because Triel used to value his beauty a lot, and because he tried to create the most beautiful and perfect city of all).

Mephistofeles could be a deity of Order, Power, Fire and Ambition. He probably has an angel name you could use, just like Triel.

[TheDarkSaint]

If I were you.........


Cleric acts as the spiritual connection, the bringer of miracles and the connection to the divine. They proselytize about order and the need dispensing with the chaos. Start setting up different levels of 'mysteries' for those who want to join the church, slowly revealing the true nature of the church as people prove their loyalty. Set them up in clusters so they can be controlled easier and can't be compromised as easily.

Bard acts as the Face. He is there to interact with the local powers that be, influencing them to work with the church. He will act as the oil between competing groups and acts to influence groups outside of the city to stabilize trading routes. The more stable he can make things in and outside of town, the more power you'll have as the popular opinion swings his (read: your) way.

Barbarian acts as your "Phantom Menace". As the 'chaotic' member of your party, he can act as a destabilizing element in your city. He might rally the "good guys" to stand against your "brutal tyranny". Since you two are secretly working together, he could reveal the location, numbers and vulnerability of any group he manages to cobble together. Then, they would be ripe for the slaughter when most vulnerable.

The monk is kind of an odd man out, job wise. As an expert hand to hand fighter that clearly sides with the establishment, he might make a brillant first target for any groups who oppose you that don't join up with the barbarian. With an anti-magic field, he might be a great mage/cleric hunter.

[nobodez]

Make sure than tat as soon as you hit 6th level, take Leadership. You might also want to look at the leadership feats from Heroes of Battle (particularly Extra Followers). The thing about Leadership is that they are in addition to whatever converts you gain from diplomancy, and provide a solid base upon which to build your rule.

[Macros]

Well, I considered Leadership, but I'll run it with the GM beforehand. The thing can be quite broken, after all.

I'm not sure the barbarian would work so well as a mole. Mainly because the guy is litteraly incapable of understanding the term "deception". So far, I don't think he even understand (in-character) what kind of man my cleric is ; all he knows is that I'm nice to him and that my plans that he doesn't understand a thing about bring money in his pocket. On the other hand, since he's quite good-natured, he would work extremly well as a representative champion of some sort.

@Clistenes : I did not consider your first point. I'm not there yet, but it's true that at some point, I'll have to, well, actually tell people a little about my "god". My hope is that I can keep quiet the most unsavory aspects of worshipping a devil, and pass the rest as "necessary evil", while insisting on order, meritocracy and hey, this world sucks, time to try something new.

The second, on the other hand, I feel quite confident about. I actually already managed to snatch a couple of souls for Asmodeus, even if so far, the main strategy relies on the victim being stupid, desperate, and not knowing how to read. But as a more reliable strategy, I think I'll go with making them pray "the God of Order", or something like that, while telling them that if they follow my teachings, they'll have the honor of joining him in the afterlife. I'm sure they'll love the surprise.

[A Tad Insane]

As a PC, you have the opportunity to become one of the most powerful being on in the planes. Use this to make trade safe by aggressively fighting the things in the wilderness. When people can trade safely, overplay your role as much as possible, thanking your deity. People will start worshiping your devil, out of gratitude and/or hopes of achieving your level of power. Once you have sufficient number of followers, do a coup and see how it plays from there

[Macros]

Well, a couple of games later...

So far, it's going well. I have my small church, the bard and the barbarian are eating in my hand, the monk is following along (the sorceress less so, if only because she doesn't strike me as a very religious person, go figure), and so far, people seems to like what this "God of Light and Order" is about. We're also building the beginning of a trade, so that part should be in working order soon.

Now, I'm about to face a dilemma. Level 5 is closing in for me, and with it 3rd level spells. Which means that I'll be soon able to create a few undeads minions. The question is, should I ? On one hand, they are a really good "workforce", what with being mindless slaves. On the other hand, it can be a PR disaster in waiting.

I can try to avoid the problem by hiding the true nature of my new servants, of course. I can try the "A skeleton ? Don't be ridiculous. This is obviously a divine spirit-guardian, you dolt." or "Rejoice ! John lives again ! Oh, but the traumatic experience decided him to make a vow of silence and to dedicate himself to the church. And don't mind the smell." First problem : it pretty much depends of everyone being retarded. Second problem : the first problem is a pretty big one.

Thoughts ?

[Kid Jake]

You could always heavily bundle the skeletons up. Dress them in heavy robes and say they're acolytes. Same with the zombies, of course with them you could claim they're lepers cleansing away their sin through righteous work before they can be healed. Definitely keep the common man from bothering them.

It would make the church appear extra benevolent for housing and looking after the terminally ill, while setting a precedent that salvation isn't free. While you'd really like to help everybody, some people just don't want it enough. Might scare up some extra manpower from the downtrodden.

[Tim Proctor]

I posted a guide to running a business in 3.5, check it out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305070).

As far as build, I would look at running something similar to what this guy posted on the current IC competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16451206&postcount=273). Just make sure you qualify for the stuff unlike this guy.

[Clistenes]

Well, a couple of games later...

So far, it's going well. I have my small church, the bard and the barbarian are eating in my hand, the monk is following along (the sorceress less so, if only because she doesn't strike me as a very religious person, go figure), and so far, people seems to like what this "God of Light and Order" is about. We're also building the beginning of a trade, so that part should be in working order soon.

Now, I'm about to face a dilemma. Level 5 is closing in for me, and with it 3rd level spells. Which means that I'll be soon able to create a few undeads minions. The question is, should I ? On one hand, they are a really good "workforce", what with being mindless slaves. On the other hand, it can be a PR disaster in waiting.

I can try to avoid the problem by hiding the true nature of my new servants, of course. I can try the "A skeleton ? Don't be ridiculous. This is obviously a divine spirit-guardian, you dolt." or "Rejoice ! John lives again ! Oh, but the traumatic experience decided him to make a vow of silence and to dedicate himself to the church. And don't mind the smell." First problem : it pretty much depends of everyone being retarded. Second problem : the first problem is a pretty big one.

Thoughts ?

How common is the knowledge that Animate Undead is an Evil spell in that setting? If people don't know about the spells, you could use it on the skeleton of some evil beast you have killed, and use it to protect the village.

Anyways, I think the benefits are quite small when compared to the risks. Skeletons and zombies are good for moving loads, chopping trees, guarding rooms and little else.

You could use them for combat, turning orcs or gnolls into zombies and using them against their living kin without anybody in the village watching it. Or you could allow some skeleton to wander the country at night to scare the hell out of your flock and encourage them to be more religious.

[Honest Tiefling]

Could always phrase it as a heroic sacrifice. Yes, being undead sucks. But guess what also sucks? Having your entire family line wiped out by whatever is lurking in the wilderness and eaten like candy. Perhaps you could slowly lead people into evil by only raising undead with consent? I would assume that the Big Honcho Devil is also about the spread of evil, after all.

You could at first only use the bodies that have been donated to the church, either by the person's will or by their family. Maybe even give them a discount on healing services if they are faithful enough to serve in the next life, or help them out in other ways.

But if you don't think you can use PR, I'd avoid it. Too many pesky spies and divination spells. Of course, if someone becomes a problem, you could always frame them with the undead...Especially if other heroes arrive to help.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Instead of justifying the presence of undead or trying to pass them off as very quiet living people, hide them in plain sight. Animate skeletons only, not zombies, and ensure they're wearing full-body-concealing armor at all times. Stick a continual flame or two inside them so they glow from the seams in their armor, add some fake mystic runes and arcane marks to the armor (glowing optional), and hit each of them with prestidigitation often enough to remove the smell and keep them hygienic.

Voila, you're not an evil priest animating undead, you're a lawful priest building constructs! :smallcool:

[DruidAlanon]

How to rule a city for dummies (just kidding)- 8+1 little steps.

First of all:

1) Find poisonous fungi and spread it to city's corn warehouse
2) Find a poison and unleash it in the river/stream/lake that hydrates the city
3) Spread any kind of poison/disease that expands easily (by any means- magical items can be extremely useful on that).
In any case make sure that it is deadly, unknown and that they will suffer once the get ill.


a) Choose 1 option from above, or think similar concepts.

b) Be sure you're the only one who knows the cure. (go for a rather rare disease eg even from other planes, far far far east regions, etc)

c) Wait for a few weeks until they are all desperate, dying and suffering.

d) Claim that this is punishment from GOD, since the city was into anarchy and chaos. Bard and others can be extremely useful. Through propaganda find a few possible believers and after they commit faith, save them (like a perform) in the most crowded place in front of common people's eyes.

e) Only LAW through FAITH to your god can save the city. Just ask (at first) in return to be the governor/priest and the rest of your party the magistrates. Then, save the city.

f) Start spreading the word by any means of propaganda. Also, consider burning even whole parts of the city (since fire is your element) in the name of purgation/purification. PUNISH certain rebels (the strongest you can discover). Make crystal clear that they (and their THOUGHTS, BELIEFS & ACTIONS) are responsible for the punishment.

g) Through taxation, build monuments and churches, enhance the military, keep the propaganda as high as possible and pray that when good paladins/priests come into town you'll be strong enough to destroy them. Also, make sure that kids/teenagers and common people will be bigots/fanatics with you and your god. (eg through the youth party, Sunday schools, daily homilies and speeches, new literature- hire writers to do just that)

h) Don't forget to forbid several things (eg certain songs, poets, paints, words, etc).

i) Try to be generous to some point/ consider possible ways to achieve economic growth so even the smarter/stronger people won't have any serious reason to question you.


In short, there are 2 key points in order to gain control.
1) Find the best disease that exist. It must be lethal and completely unknown even to the smartest scholars or to the most experienced travelers.
2) Make sure that everything is done under 100000000000% secrecy.

And 2 more key points to maintain control.
1) Propaganda
2) Punishment

Law through Faith, PURITY THROUGH FAITH. Desmondu prevails.

[HalfQuart]

It's still a ways away for you, but I've always thought a DMM persistent Positive Energy Aura would be awesome for someone trying to start a religion -- just being in your presence heals people. Although it's not very compatible with undead minions, so perhaps not your shtick.

[zlefin]

Read a synopsis; or maybe even the full text of, the Undead campaign in Heroes of Might and Magic 4; featuring Gaul'doth half-dead.
It's a good example of a necromancer taking over a nation, but being fairly well received by the populace.

[Honest Tiefling]

Well, I guess he could ask the DM about positive energy undead? I think there's a good aligned Deathless or something. It's a bit of a long shot, but considering the PC is an aasimar in the first place...

[Angelalex242]

An evil cleric wouldn't be able to create deathless, just as good clerics aren't allowed to make undead.

Book of Exalted Deeds 'Deathless' type are less like undead and more like Aerith (post mortem) out of Final Fantasy 7. Benevolent spirits of the departed.

[Macros]

Thank you all for your input. Wow, so much things to do... I'll have to remember to stay focused.


You could always heavily bundle the skeletons up. Dress them in heavy robes and say they're acolytes. Same with the zombies, of course with them you could claim they're lepers cleansing away their sin through righteous work before they can be healed. Definitely keep the common man from bothering them.

It would make the church appear extra benevolent for housing and looking after the terminally ill, while setting a precedent that salvation isn't free. While you'd really like to help everybody, some people just don't want it enough. Might scare up some extra manpower from the downtrodden.

I thought of playing dress-up with zombies, but I'm afraid it quicky would become a bit too suspicious. On the other hand, saying they're lepers would justify keeping them away from the public eyes. Heck, I doubt anyone would like to get too close.


Instead of justifying the presence of undead or trying to pass them off as very quiet living people, hide them in plain sight. Animate skeletons only, not zombies, and ensure they're wearing full-body-concealing armor at all times. Stick a continual flame or two inside them so they glow from the seams in their armor, add some fake mystic runes and arcane marks to the armor (glowing optional), and hit each of them with prestidigitation often enough to remove the smell and keep them hygienic.

Voila, you're not an evil priest animating undead, you're a lawful priest building constructs! :smallcool:

Oooh, this one I like. :smallbiggrin:


It's still a ways away for you, but I've always thought a DMM persistent Positive Energy Aura would be awesome for someone trying to start a religion -- just being in your presence heals people. Although it's not very compatible with undead minions, so perhaps not your shtick.

Neat trick. It doesn't matter too much that it's not very undead-friendly (after all, they are only a tool, and if I find more efficient ones, they can be discarded). The only difficulty is that I won't be able to pull it off before level 9 (12 if I take Leadership at level 6). By this point, I hope to have an already strong base, so running around healing people should not be strictly necessary. But it's true that healing people just by being there should feed the general mystique around my character.


Could always phrase it as a heroic sacrifice. Yes, being undead sucks. But guess what also sucks? Having your entire family line wiped out by whatever is lurking in the wilderness and eaten like candy. Perhaps you could slowly lead people into evil by only raising undead with consent? I would assume that the Big Honcho Devil is also about the spread of evil, after all.

You could at first only use the bodies that have been donated to the church, either by the person's will or by their family. Maybe even give them a discount on healing services if they are faithful enough to serve in the next life, or help them out in other ways.

But if you don't think you can use PR, I'd avoid it. Too many pesky spies and divination spells. Of course, if someone becomes a problem, you could always frame them with the undead...Especially if other heroes arrive to help.

Mmm. Heavy risks. But the prize... I'll have to think on that. Perhaps only implement that plan once I already have a solid reputation of being well-meaning.


How common is the knowledge that Animate Undead is an Evil spell in that setting? If people don't know about the spells, you could use it on the skeleton of some evil beast you have killed, and use it to protect the village.

Anyways, I think the benefits are quite small when compared to the risks. Skeletons and zombies are good for moving loads, chopping trees, guarding rooms and little else.

You could use them for combat, turning orcs or gnolls into zombies and using them against their living kin without anybody in the village watching it. Or you could allow some skeleton to wander the country at night to scare the hell out of your flock and encourage them to be more religious.

Using undeads for covert-ops operations ? That's... a pretty good idea, actually. I could begin with this plan, and switch to Honest Tiefling's idea after that. Also, so far, I don't get the impression that people know much about magic in general around here. I only met one wizard in the local mercenary guild and... that's pretty much it. So, chances are they don't know that animating undead is inherantly evil (even if they might suspect it's not a really nice thing to do)


Anyway, it seems I'll have my hands full for a good long time. Man, taking over the world is hard work ! :smallsmile: