Vecna-Blooded: a small flaw is all it takes...

[Boci]

So a while ago in a thread someone pointed me towards Vecna-Blooded, a cool LA: +1 template for arcane casters that does unimportant thing number 1, unimportant thing numbers 2 and 3 and make you immune to divination. Seriously, how many people know what else Vecna-Blooded does (even if they are and quite powerful in their own right)?

But that's not important. What's important is the wording of "Cloak of Mystery", which makes them immune to all divination spells. So, how easy is this to exploit (I'm guessing rather hard)?

I'll start: shadow casters get greater scrything combined with true seeing at level 15, one level before Venca-blooded gets mindblank, assuming the shadow caster has no LA/CR adjustment. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, but with favoured mystery (far sight) taken twice it is a supernatural ability, and thus no longer thwarted by cloak of mystery.

Anyone got anything else?

[Morithias]

I'll start: shadow casters get greater scrything combined with true seeing at level 15, one level before Venca-blooded gets mindblank, assuming the shadow caster has no LA/CR adjustment. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, but with favoured mystery (far sight) taken twice it is a supernatural ability, and thus no longer thwarted by cloak of mystery.

Anyone got anything else?

Yes at level 15 with a specific class feature, in a class no one uses can beat it.

Seriously when is the last time you've seen someone play a bloody shadowcaster?

99.99% of the time, Vecna blooded on your main villain will make him a nightmare for your party.

[Boci]

Yes at level 15 with a specific class feature, in a class no one uses can beat it.

Seriously when is the last time you've seen someone play a bloody shadowcaster?

99.99% of the time, Vecna blooded on your main villain will make him a nightmare for your party.

You also forgot it takes 2 feats they would normally be unlikely to take. I'm not saying this is going to happen as a coincidence. But a shadow caster being the only person capable of finding a Vecna blooded does set up an interesting dynamic.

Plus I noted in the OP how hard it was to exploit. So do you have anything to, you know, actually add to the thread?

[Morithias]

You also forgot it takes 2 feats they would normally be unlikely to take. I'm not saying this is going to happen as a coincidence. But a shadow caster being the only person capable of finding a Vecna blooded does set up an interesting dynamic.

Plus I noted in the OP how hard it was to exploit. So do you have anything to, you know, actually add to the thread?

No I'm just saying. It might be a flaw, but it's a flaw that no one is ever going to use.

HOWEVER.

I thank you for finding this. This will make for excellent "find the NPC who is locked in a dungeon" sidequests.

I see this as a DM trick, not a player trick.

....and even then, the vecna blooded template is a dm trick anyway. The average party has nothing to fear from divination because the DM sees all anyway. If the DM needs mercenaries to find you, they'll find you, vecna blooded or not.

[The Viscount]

An elemental weird that took supernatural transformation could similarly trump cloak of mystery.

As for the Vecna-Blooded target not having mind blank you are mistaken. While Vecna-Blooded is LA+1, the most important ability, Cloak of Mystery, remains even after losing the other effects of the template. This means that most who gain the template will activate the DR, lose the other effects, and ditch the +1 LA.

[Boci]

....and even then, the vecna blooded template is a dm trick anyway. The average party has nothing to fear from divination because the DM sees all anyway. If the DM needs mercenaries to find you, they'll find you, vecna blooded or not.

That's not exactly good sportmanship though. However a valid point is that Vecna blooded PC will typical have party members not immune to scry.


An elemental weird that took supernatural transformation could similarly trump cloak of mystery.

I'm struggling to decide which flaw is less likely to come up...


As for the Vecna-Blooded target not having mind blank you are mistaken. While Vecna-Blooded is LA+1, the most important ability, Cloak of Mystery, remains even after losing the other effects of the template. This means that most who gain the template will activate the DR, lose the other effects, and ditch the +1 LA.

Technically RAW yes I will grant you that, but there is also a variant rule that the DM can use to make the template harder to lose.

[Piggy Knowles]

As for the Vecna-Blooded target not having mind blank you are mistaken. While Vecna-Blooded is LA+1, the most important ability, Cloak of Mystery, remains even after losing the other effects of the template. This means that most who gain the template will activate the DR, lose the other effects, and ditch the +1 LA.

I see this a lot, but it doesn't really work:


Once the damage reduction has prevented 40 points of damage, the creature loses all benefits of the god-blooded template, including this ability, except when otherwise noted.

...

Unlike other god-blooded abilities, the Vecna-blooded creature retains [Cloak of Mystery] even after it loses other abilities from this template.

You don't actually lose the template itself - you merely lose the abilities from the template. I don't see anything in the description of the template that says you lose the template itself (and its associated level adjustment).

[DarkWhisper]

I'll start: shadow casters get greater scrything combined with true seeing at level 15, one level before Venca-blooded gets mindblank, assuming the shadow caster has no LA/CR adjustment. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, but with favoured mystery (far sight) taken twice it is a supernatural ability, and thus no longer thwarted by cloak of mystery.

Anyone got anything else?

Dweomerkeeper 4 (Comp. Divine Web Enhancement)

1/d with any divination spell of his choosing thanks to Supernatural Spell.

[olentu]

Hmm, the cloak of mysteries is a supernatural ability I believe. I think this means that it does not qualify for applying psionics magic transparency.

Edit: Never mind, I remembered incorrectly.

[The Viscount]

I see this a lot, but it doesn't really work:



You don't actually lose the template itself - you merely lose the abilities from the template. I don't see anything in the description of the template that says you lose the template itself (and its associated level adjustment).

This is true, I just interpret it as I do mostly because if other god-blooded creatures lose their abilities, they retain nothing, and so have LA +1 tacked on with nothing to show for it, which seems wrong to me.

A Hierophant or Archmage could get around cloak of mysteries.

[Boci]

This is true, I just interpret it as I do mostly because if other god-blooded creatures lose their abilities, they retain nothing, and so have LA +1 tacked on with nothing to show for it, which seems wrong to me.

For any other God-blooded template you could make a case for that.


A Hierophant or Archmage could get around cloak of mysteries.

How? I thought they could only turn their spells into spell like abilities. That will still be locked, or not?

[LordBlades]

I see this as a DM trick, not a player trick.

....and even then, the vecna blooded template is a dm trick anyway. The average party has nothing to fear from divination because the DM sees all anyway. If the DM needs mercenaries to find you, they'll find you, vecna blooded or not.

Not all DMs arbitrarily nullify player abilities. With a DM that plays by the rules, Vecna-blooded functions.

That being said, I do feel it's mainly a DM trick and not extremely useful to players, but for different reasons. Unless it's a solo game, one of the following happens:

-You take Vecna-blooded, you're now untraceable by divination, but the rest of your party is not, and odds are they can't all qualify for the template even if they wanted to. So people still can track down your party as a whole by tracking down the other party members. You are the surprise element however since you don't show up on any divinations and who ever comes after your party or expects your party won't get the chance to prepare for you as well.

-The whole party is immune to divination, case in which why bother with Vecna-blooded and not use whatever method they are using? Unless they're all immune due to taking Vecna-blooded:smallyuk:

[Piggy Knowles]

How? I thought they could only turn their spells into spell like abilities. That will still be locked, or not?

Supernatural Transformation, maybe?

[Psyren]

Not all DMs arbitrarily nullify player abilities. With a DM that plays by the rules, Vecna-blooded functions.

With a DM that plays by the rules, Vecna-blooded is impossible for any player to actually get, so the point is moot.

[LordBlades]

With a DM that plays by the rules, Vecna-blooded is impossible for any player to actually get, so the point is moot.

How so? If you mean that you can't find out about it in the first place I disagree, but this conversation has been done to death in another thread, so restarting it would not be very productive.

[Psyren]

How so? If you mean that you can't find out about it in the first place I disagree, but this conversation has been done to death in another thread, so restarting it would not be very productive.

No, I didn't mean that. Even if you somehow learn about it you can't get it.

First, you have to complete the god's ritual (in Vecna's case, solve the Seven Riddles of Vecna and then survive an indeterminate amount of torture/ordeals in his pocket dimension, the Oubliette of Secrets.) At some point, either prior to going or while there, you also have to immerse yourself in his aspect's blood - and the trick there is that Vecna's, being a skeleton, doesn't have any (clever bastard.) You also can't polymorph it into anything else because it's immune to all transmutations.

Even if you somehow manage to overcome all that and obtain the blood somehow, you'd probably end up an insane NPC after all those tender ministrations at his hands.

[LordBlades]

No, I didn't mean that. Even if you somehow learn about it you can't get it.


Ah, ok. There was a thread a while ago where some people claimed that because you can't learn anything about individual Vecna-blooded creatures, you can't learn anything about the existence of the template either.



First, you have to complete the god's ritual (in Vecna's case, solve the Seven Riddles of Vecna and then survive an indeterminate amount of torture/ordeals in his pocket dimension, the Oubliette of Secrets.) At some point, either prior to going or while there, you also have to immerse yourself in his aspect's blood - and the trick there is that Vecna's, being a skeleton, doesn't have any (clever bastard.) You also can't polymorph it into anything else because it's immune to all transmutations.

Bathing in a deity's blood is written in the generic god-blooded template intro. Not even in the 'creating a God-blooded creature', which might bring the question whether it's fluff or rule. Regardless, the specific Vecna-blooded entry says you need to solve the Seven Riddles, after which you're sent to the Oubliette of Secrets where, 'after exposure to a number of bizarre tortures and ordeals at the hands of a strange creature known as the Anchorite, the caster emerges as a Vecna-blooded creature'. Since specific overrides general, the ritual to become Vecna-blooded does not require blood.


Even if you somehow manage to overcome all that and obtain the blood somehow, you'd probably end up an insane NPC after all those tender ministrations at his hands.

Well, that's entirely up to you and the DM. After all, there are cases of adventurers that have remained sane after 20 or more levels of nothing but 'I full attack..again' every encounter. Surely whatever torture Vecna can think up don't measure up to that (unless the torture is actually locking up the wizard in a fighter body. In AMF).

[Boci]

Ah, ok. There was a thread a while ago where some people claimed that because you can't learn anything about individual Vecna-blooded creatures, you can't learn anything about the existence of the template either.[/COLOR]

Its not exactly an unreasonably houserule from the DM. "No, you won't find out about them in game, I'll contrive an encounter instead".


Supernatural Transformation, maybe?

Oh yeah. Does a warlock get any scry affects?

[Psyren]

Since specific overrides general, the ritual to become Vecna-blooded does not require blood.

The problem is that the two aren't actually contradictory, so specific vs. general doesn't necessarily come into play. Being dunked in blood could be just one more of the "bizarre ordeals" you have to undergo in the Oubliette. Nothing in the rules say you have to succeed or survive in there, just that you gain the template if you do. So in short, while the VB template itself is a thing, there are no actual examples of anyone having pulled it off successfully, save for the one Gruumsh-blooded character in the book. Obtaining it being impossible is very much... possible.

I also find the "fluff vs. rule" divide to be artificial. MTG is the game that enforces that separation, and they clearly denote on the cards where rules end and fluff begins. D&D is unfortunately not nearly as clear.

[The Viscount]

Supernatural Transformation, maybe?

That was indeed what I was thinking of. Sorry for not specifying.

[Eurus]

No, I didn't mean that. Even if you somehow learn about it you can't get it.

First, you have to complete the god's ritual (in Vecna's case, solve the Seven Riddles of Vecna and then survive an indeterminate amount of torture/ordeals in his pocket dimension, the Oubliette of Secrets.) At some point, either prior to going or while there, you also have to immerse yourself in his aspect's blood - and the trick there is that Vecna's, being a skeleton, doesn't have any (clever bastard.) You also can't polymorph it into anything else because it's immune to all transmutations.

Even if you somehow manage to overcome all that and obtain the blood somehow, you'd probably end up an insane NPC after all those tender ministrations at his hands.

This made me laugh pretty hard, for some reason. So thank you for that.

[Chronos]

Defeat the aspect, break open its bones, and bathe in marrow. No problem.

[Psyren]

Defeat the aspect, break open its bones, and bathe in marrow. No problem.

Marrow is the source of blood, but is not actually blood itself - and then you get into the issue of whether undead marrow is even... er... batheable :smalleek:

[Chronos]

Hey, if Uncle Scrooge can bathe in gold coins, I can bathe in marrow.

[The Viscount]

I suppose you could add water to it. On the subject of the method by which the book suggests Vecna-blooded is obtained, does the Hellraiser reference seem intentional to others?

[ArcturusV]

Thinking about this: Would the Void Disciple get around Vecna-blooded? Because it's Void Sense ability is an effect where they can just spy on you if you're on the same plane. But it has no saving throw, no spell resistance, isn't a spell, or a spell like ability. I mean a Void Disciple, as far as I can tell could just trance out, go "Show me Bob the Vecna-Blooded" and instantly have eyes on you.

[Psyren]

I suppose you could add water to it.

If corpse-marrow + water was all we needed to make blood I think the various banks would be a lot better off :smalltongue:


Thinking about this: Would the Void Disciple get around Vecna-blooded? Because it's Void Sense ability is an effect where they can just spy on you if you're on the same plane. But it has no saving throw, no spell resistance, isn't a spell, or a spell like ability. I mean a Void Disciple, as far as I can tell could just trance out, go "Show me Bob the Vecna-Blooded" and instantly have eyes on you.

Yes, your senses would project you to Bob, but they are still perceived using your normal senses (so if Bob is invisible, you won't see him) and it doesn't go across planes.

[Arc_knight25]

When your immune to divinations are you immune to Arcane Sight, Detect X, True Seeing?

Because if that's the case, who wouldn't want that immunity?

Besides someone that didn't want to be tainted by Vecna's blood.