[Fluff, PF] Lawful Good's reaction to Lawful Neutral's zealotry

[ArqArturo]

In my Pathfinder campaign I DM, a new recent player who's a paladin of a Lawful Neutral god (sort of my campaign's version of St. Cuthbert, only that he's more of a God of Gods and of Creation, as well as judgement) has met some zealots of his church; not in the 'we must burn the heretic' zealots, but more along the self-inflicting wound variety. In their view, since this is a rather distant god with not a lot of true divine casters, they self-flagelate while chanting and/or working, as well as use heavy ring piercings in their backs to carry thuribles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thurible) with burning incense in them, and pretty much just push their body to their limit without actually crippling anything useful. In their logic, they do this to show their god that pain is nothing compared to their faith, and to (pretty please) respond to their prayers.

The paladin's reaction (particularly since he has an Oath of Charity) is that of disgust of the practice, and the player is also kind of put off by it. He says that the practice is more evil (self-inflicting wounds and all), and he should be able to try and 'redeem' them from their practice, especially since he's a divine caster (of sorts) of the same god.

I commended his effort, and his RPing of his character, but I don't think the practice itself is inherently bad, considering the zealots are not harming anyone else, and they gain no pleasure of it, but I am encouraging him a bit of proselytizing from his paladin, as it gives him a better chance of RP (he's usually the one that stands in the front and fights, he's not much for RP), and maybe to learn a thing or two about local politics (they're looking on some recent deaths and dissapearances in the poor quarter of the city, right along where the most zealots live).

So, is this practice borderline evil? I know the BoVD thus state that scarification for rituals and whatnot are evil, but, mostly I assume they do it in the name of dark forces, and since this is a LN deity, I don't see much issue.

[A Tad Insane]

It's not evil in the giant overarching philosophical way, but it is needlessly afflicted pain, which a good character probably would take issue with. As a lawful good paladin, he would, and some would argue should, try and convince them there are better ways to show their devotion.

[Eonir]

I disagree.

While he may be personally put off by it (reflecting his good alignment) his lawful half must respect legitimate establishments. While this act of self mutilation is gross, it's not illegal, therefor he can't really do anything about it.

[The Oni]

If the god or the Church is mandating that other members do this, I think that it could be considered evil. If the followers are doing it on their own just to prove their loyalty then it's weird and maybe a bit kinky, but not evil.

[Spore]

So, is this practice borderline evil? I know the BoVD thus state that scarification for rituals and whatnot are evil, but, mostly I assume they do it in the name of dark forces, and since this is a LN deity, I don't see much issue.

It's not evil, just stupid. If you do this because you want to be closer to god xy, you're approaching his or her alignment imho. It's the intention that counts not the deed itself (another reason why philosophy is so unworldly).

[Dissonance]

It's not an 'evil' practice, and the paladin is not obligated to stick his hand into their affairs. However his willingness to and belief that he is doing the right thing supports good. So as he RPs it can be considered 'doing the right thing' because he's shifing the focus of a more dubious practice.

@Eonir: Lawful alignment doesn't mean he can't do anything about it. If CEs ran the government and made murder legal, a paladin would still argue try to prevent it. A paladin does what (he thinks) is right and just. If to this guy it's changing a practice of self mutilation, he should pursue it with all of his divine gifts. Just not in an evil or chaotic fashion.

[Raven777]

I disagree.

While he may be personally put off by it (reflecting his good alignment) his lawful half must respect legitimate establishments. While this act of self mutilation is gross, it's not illegal, therefor he can't really do anything about it.

Sure, he can't do anything violent about it, but he can still attempt to talk them out of it.

[TuggyNE]

I disagree.

While he may be personally put off by it (reflecting his good alignment) his lawful half must respect legitimate establishments. While this act of self mutilation is gross, it's not illegal, therefor he can't really do anything about it.

That's not right. Lawful does not mean "never disagrees with laws", it means "replaces unsatisfactory laws with more suitable ones by means of the appropriate legal mechanisms".

[Ravens_cry]

I wouldn't call self flagellation evil. Not good either, so it really fits the idea of a strict, lawful neutral church, in my opinion.

[AMFV]

Ilmater has the same schtick and he's lawful good. Self-flagellation to teach discipline and to empathize with other people's suffering is not evil. They're not using it to gain personal power, but rather as a source of compassion or discipline I'd call that good.

[Angelalex242]

Proper response here is to call for a commune spell on the issue, assuming this hasn't been done already.

Cleric asks the God:
Should self flagellation be outlawed in your church?
Commune always responds with yes or no answers, so...
Either the God says yes, and it's outlawed as of that moment...
Or the God says no, and the Paladin's gotta drop his case...

[Stux]

That's not right. Lawful does not mean "never disagrees with laws", it means "replaces unsatisfactory laws with more suitable ones by means of the appropriate legal mechanisms".

I'd say its even more distant than that. Lawful means he conducts himself according to a set of rules or values and respects the authority from which these rules or values originate. He doesn't have to follow any legal mechanism except in so far as that mechanism is condoned by whatever code the character follows.

Chances are that for this particular character the tenets of his church are an important part of his code of course. He would have to know if the practice was something condoned by the church as a whole, or something peculiar to this sect. If it is the former he probably has to put up with it, or at least work within the church to modify it. If the latter he can be more proactive and attempt to bring this sect in line with the broader church by curtailing the practice.