Strength Build (Help)

[Gwazi Magnum]

Basically I'm working on a Level 8 character whose basically all about Strength in any application.

Grappling down the big bad dragon, hitting and killing everything in one hit, picking up and tossing dragons and castles at people, kicking down the strongest of walls.

This character should be hitting level 20 at least by the end of the campaign though, so advice to what to build towards would also be of help.

For Two reasons I want this character to be remain an Orc though:

1: 0 LA
2: I plan for him to be descended from an old character of mine who was an Orc

If people can give a strong enough argument (both mechanic and RP wise) to go with another race then I may pick it up instead.

Any help, advice and sources you know of that can enhance such a build/character would be most appreciated.

[The Trickster]

I remember there being a PrC in the miniatures handbook called the war hulk that greatly increased the character's strength.

Edit: Whoops, that requires a large character. My bad.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I remember there being a PrC in the miniatures handbook called the war hulk that greatly increased the character's strength.

Edit: Whoops, that requires a large character. My bad.

Wouldn't a permanency enlarge spell do the trick?

[JaronK]

Permanent Enlarge Person absolutely works. War Hulk and Hulking Hurler are the two classes you want for pure strength characters.

Considering being a Dragonborn Water Orc though, if that fits your character idea. This gives you +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 all other stats, and gives you your choice of better visual abilities, a breath weapon, or flight. Any of those are quite nice. You also get a swim speed and lose your light sensitivity.

Or, if you change your mind about the LA, Half Minotaur Water Orc gives you an off the charts strength score for just +1 LA.

JaronK

[Gwazi Magnum]

I just want to clarify to everyone.

Stacking high STR is a big goal here, but I'm also looking for creative applications for it as a character in roleplay and anything that although may not increase STR directly still aids it a ton in it's overall usage.


Permanent Enlarge Person absolutely works. War Hulk and Hulking Hurler are the two classes you want for pure strength characters.

Considering being a Dragonborn Water Orc though, if that fits your character idea. This gives you +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 all other stats, and gives you your choice of better visual abilities, a breath weapon, or flight. Any of those are quite nice. You also get a swim speed and lose your light sensitivity.

Or, if you change your mind about the LA, Half Minotaur Water Orc gives you an off the charts strength score for just +1 LA.

JaronK

Dragonborn works perfectly, since the Orc Character he's descended from had some levels in Dragon Disciple. :P
Though a question with it, are there many ways to improve the fly speed past 30 feet?

Water Orc and Minotaur I admit are both tempting, the only issue in this case is explaining it properly through history. Where would of gain traits of water Orc's, and when would of a Minotaur entered the family? I'll probably pull out a family tree and get busy on character history, any ideas in this regard though would also be helpful. :)

For the classes. War Hulk I love and will probably take the full 10 levels in.
Hulking Hurler though, I'm kind of unsure on. I mean I defelently see the applications, but can't I just pick up and throw things already before hand?

[Darrin]

Though a question with it, are there many ways to improve the fly speed past 30 feet?


+10', Fast Movement, Barbarian 1 (Core).
+10', Fast Movement, Forest Reeve (Complete Champion).
+10', Speed of Thought (XPH).
+10', Freedom Mantle (Complete Psionic).
+30', Air Heritage feat (Planar Handbook).
+60' + 10'/essentia, Dread Carapace soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum).
+5', Dash feat (Complete Warrior).

[Gwazi Magnum]

Another question.

I found feat's like Great Sunder which I think would work amazingly for wall breaking and such. However, it needs 5 power points reserved. I know the easy answer for this:

1. Several Psion Levels
2. One Psion Level and High Wisdom/Intelligence or Charisma
3. Several Feats

But I remember once before finding something that let Strength determine psionics. Is there a way to get additional Power points according to my strength score?


+10', Fast Movement, Barbarian 1 (Core).
+10', Fast Movement, Forest Reeve (Complete Champion).
+10', Speed of Thought (XPH).
+10', Freedom Mantle (Complete Psionic).
+30', Air Heritage feat (Planar Handbook).
+60' + 10'/essentia, Dread Carapace soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum).
+5', Dash feat (Complete Warrior).

Thanks :) This will help a lot.

[Optimator]

Shock Trooper and Combat Brute are musts. May as well do heedless charge and leap attack too.

[Metahuman1]

Reckless rage is also good.

Further, be an earth orc, and add acrtic too the mix for a +2 Str and a +4 Con.

If you don't mind 2 LA, Add Loth Touched, Half Minotaur, and Half Oger, and say a wizard did it to pile on even more strength. With an Item Familiar Feat form UA, you can easily buy this off.

Consider a one level dip into exotic weapons master for Double Str mod to damage rolls.

A dip of Warblade or Swordsage is also helpful as ever, but a neat trick is you can pump your concentration check artificially, and inexpensively by only bothering to get it super pumped for a few checks, and apply the construct graphs form Monster Manual 2 to the character for a total of +12 Str per limb.

Also look at Candle of Invocation for your inherent str boost form Wish. I believe there's an item you can combine with this that will double it to a total +10 inherent.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Shock Trooper and Combat Brute are musts. May as well do heedless charge and leap attack too.

They do seem to make a broken combination.

My only concern is being able to set myself up for a charge each turn.


Reckless rage is also good.

Further, be an earth orc, and add acrtic too the mix for a +2 Str and a +4 Con.

If you don't mind 2 LA, Add Loth Touched, Half Minotaur, and Half Oger, and say a wizard did it to pile on even more strength. With an Item Familiar Feat form UA, you can easily buy this off.

Consider a one level dip into exotic weapons master for Double Str mod to damage rolls.

A dip of Warblade or Swordsage is also helpful as ever, but a neat trick is you can pump your concentration check artificially, and inexpensively by only bothering to get it super pumped for a few checks, and apply the construct graphs form Monster Manual 2 to the character for a total of +12 Str per limb.

Also look at Candle of Invocation for your inherent str boost form Wish. I believe there's an item you can combine with this that will double it to a total +10 inherent.

Reckless Rage looks nice. Though I either need high levels in Barbarian or a number of extend rage feats to keep rage a reliable boost.

There is no Earth Orc though.
And with Arctic, lacks the +2 CON that Water Orc has and it's other benefits would be lost with Dragonborn.

Can you show me where I can look at Loth-Touched though? I can't find it anywhere.

As for Half-Ogre/Half-Minotaur, is that even possible? Wouldn't I lose my Orc race then if I did that?

Item Familliar I remember, I like the feat. But then my issue is feats... I'm hitting the point where I need to find ways to earn more feats because I'm starting to need too many...

Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Sunder, Improved Sunder, Improved Bullrush, Leap Attack, Reckless Rage etc.

The Weapon Master I like, though I need to find a good way to get exotic weapon proficiency. I'm thinking a level in the fighter variant of Kensai.

As for the MM grafts... Maybe, how exactly does that work?

[Metahuman1]

As far as I know you can apply just about any regional variant and any elemental variant to a base race as long as they don't directly conflict. (So Earth Orc is an earth creater, Arctic Orc is an Orc that hangs about in an Icy region, and you can in fact be an Arctic Earth Orc. )

And Artic gives a +2 Con for a -2 Cha, Earth gives a +2 to Str and Con.

As for Half Minotaur and Half Oger, those two templates due apparently stack. Though you may have to explain it as "A wizard did it." or just pretend fluff wise you don't have one/both of them.

Loth Touched is MM 3 if I remember right.

As for feats, well, this is cheesy, but, you could hit up cheap magical locations and then have a caster or Psion Dark Chaos Shuffle/Psionic Reformation those mostly useless feats into feats you'd actually want.

The graphs work like this. You pick a Graph off the list, and apply it too a limb (may need to remove the limb first, but hey, a cure spell and high HP, you should still survive. ) Then have the Graph applied. Next thing that happens is you get to make a save, (I'm pretty sure it's Will but it might be fort.), and the more of these graphts your putting on, the higher the save DC. If you fail, you go insane and become a half golem. If you succeed, you now have a spiffy graph with gives you bonuses, and has a weakness or two.

I'd go Iron Golem myself for this build for the sexy +12 Str and +4 Con, and then just have a super thing coat of Riverine put over it to protect it form things like rust monsters. Now, if you have a level or swordsage or Warblade, you can use a Diamond Mind Counter to make a concentration check in place of the save. This means you don't auto fail on a 1, and you can much more easily boost the check so high that even on a 1 you can't fail.

Enjoy your +48 Str and +16 Con that stacks with everything.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hulking Hurler though, I'm kind of unsure on. I mean I defelently see the applications, but can't I just pick up and throw things already before hand?
The big issue is overcoming the improvised weapons penalty. Hulking Hurler lets you halve the penalty with thrown weapons. The trick throws are a pretty nifty touch, though, even if you avoid Overburdened Heave abuse. (Ranged Power Attack? AoE throws? Yes please!)

[Gwazi Magnum]

As far as I know you can apply just about any regional variant and any elemental variant to a base race as long as they don't directly conflict. (So Earth Orc is an earth creater, Arctic Orc is an Orc that hangs about in an Icy region, and you can in fact be an Arctic Earth Orc. )

And Artic gives a +2 Con for a -2 Cha, Earth gives a +2 to Str and Con.

As for Half Minotaur and Half Oger, those two templates due apparently stack. Though you may have to explain it as "A wizard did it." or just pretend fluff wise you don't have one/both of them.

Loth Touched is MM 3 if I remember right.

As for feats, well, this is cheesy, but, you could hit up cheap magical locations and then have a caster or Psion Dark Chaos Shuffle/Psionic Reformation those mostly useless feats into feats you'd actually want.

The graphs work like this. You pick a Graph off the list, and apply it too a limb (may need to remove the limb first, but hey, a cure spell and high HP, you should still survive. ) Then have the Graph applied. Next thing that happens is you get to make a save, (I'm pretty sure it's Will but it might be fort.), and the more of these graphts your putting on, the higher the save DC. If you fail, you go insane and become a half golem. If you succeed, you now have a spiffy graph with gives you bonuses, and has a weakness or two.

I'd go Iron Golem myself for this build for the sexy +12 Str and +4 Con, and then just have a super thing coat of Riverine put over it to protect it form things like rust monsters. Now, if you have a level or swordsage or Warblade, you can use a Diamond Mind Counter to make a concentration check in place of the save. This means you don't auto fail on a 1, and you can much more easily boost the check so high that even on a 1 you can't fail.

Enjoy your +48 Str and +16 Con that stacks with everything.

I'm looking at Unearthed Arcana now and Arctic doesn't give any CON boost.
I also see no mention of Earth granting +2 STR and CON. :/

I think to avoid a DM book to the face though and to keep some Orc in my blood I'll stick with just one half-race. Same for the graft's +wanting to be organic still and not wanting to have to spend levels in Tome of Battle.

I can't find Loth Touched in MM 3 either.

What are the magical locations though? Because I am honestly getting way to desperate for feats atm.

[Callin]

MM4 pg 93
Template Type: Acquired
Alignment Change : Creatures with this template become Chaotic Evil if they are not already.
Special Qualities: All of the Specail Qualities of the base creature plus Fearless Ex
Abilities: +6 Str, +6 Con
Skills +4 to Stealth (Hide and Move silenty)
LA: +1

Its very good and you can refluff it to Gruumsh Blessed or what not. Toss on the Half Minotaur and you are rocking it (Though Half Ogre might be better for fluff its not mechanically better because of the +2 Con and Skill Bonuses and a Bonus feat you can Chaos Shuffle around. If you can swing it with your DM to refluff it as well to better suit you then bonus!) So thats a +2 LA for +18 Str from the templates and size increase.

[Metahuman1]

I'm looking at Unearthed Arcana now and Arctic doesn't give any CON boost.
I also see no mention of Earth granting +2 STR and CON. :/

I think to avoid a DM book to the face though and to keep some Orc in my blood I'll stick with just one half-race. Same for the graft's +wanting to be organic still and not wanting to have to spend levels in Tome of Battle.

I can't find Loth Touched in MM 3 either.

What are the magical locations though? Because I am honestly getting way to desperate for feats atm.

Look at the example critters for Artic and Earth. You'll notice the difference in there listed ability's.


Some books have an option for a reward, with a listed GP value, a magic location you can go to and get some kinda benefit. One of the benefits some of them have is giving bonus feats.

Then have a caster Dark Chaos Shuffle or a Psion Psionic Reformation you to turn those into actually helpful feats.

[Gwazi Magnum]

MM4 pg 93
Template Type: Acquired
Alignment Change : Creatures with this template become Chaotic Evil if they are not already.
Special Qualities: All of the Specail Qualities of the base creature plus Fearless Ex
Abilities: +6 Str, +6 Con
Skills +4 to Stealth (Hide and Move silenty)
LA: +1

Its very good and you can refluff it to Gruumsh Blessed or what not. Toss on the Half Minotaur and you are rocking it (Though Half Ogre might be better for fluff its not mechanically better because of the +2 Con and Skill Bonuses and a Bonus feat you can Chaos Shuffle around. If you can swing it with your DM to refluff it as well to better suit you then bonus!) So thats a +2 LA for +18 Str from the templates and size increase.

Thanks for the source. :)

I think for simplicity's sake though I'll stay with one half-template.
Probably Half-Minotaur.

Loth Touched seems cool, especially if I change it to another god.

[Karnith]

I'm looking at Unearthed Arcana now and Arctic doesn't give any CON boost.
The Arctic template being referenced, also called "Ice-Dweller," is in Dragon Magazine #306, and does give +2 Con and -2 Cha (among other things). It is separate from the similarly named Arctic environmental racial variant in Unearthed Arcana.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm not sure about taking weapon master now.
Because I'm looking at spiked chain for extra reach, and it's two handed so the extra STR damage wouldn't apply. So I have to ask, do people find the extra damage or the reach more vital?

Also, how is my weapon reach affected if I'm a large creature with the spike rather than a medium creature?


The Arctic template being referenced, also called "Ice-Dweller," is in Dragon Magazine #306, and does give +2 Con and -2 Cha (among other things). It is separate from the similarly named Arctic environmental racial variant in Unearthed Arcana.

Thanks for the clarification. :)
Though I think I'm sticking with Water Orc.

[JaronK]

Water Orc and Minotaur I admit are both tempting, the only issue in this case is explaining it properly through history. Where would of gain traits of water Orc's, and when would of a Minotaur entered the family? I'll probably pull out a family tree and get busy on character history, any ideas in this regard though would also be helpful. :)

Just assume some draconic heritage from a water type dragon (Black Dragon, for example). As for Half Minotaur, that's pretty self explanatory.


For the classes. War Hulk I love and will probably take the full 10 levels in.
Hulking Hurler though, I'm kind of unsure on. I mean I defelently see the applications, but can't I just pick up and throw things already before hand?

You can't throw things that are nearly as big or for nearly as much damage.

JaronK

[Gwazi Magnum]

You can't throw things that are nearly as big or for nearly as much damage.

JaronK

So when I juggled dragons in my past campaign it wasn't allowed? :smalleek:

[Gwazi Magnum]

So, my current build: Level 6(LA 2 buyoff)

Classes: Lion Totem and Horse Spirit Totem Barbarian 2/Kensai Fighter 2/Monk 1/Hulking Hurler 1
Race: Half-Minotaur Water Orc. Gone through Dragonborn ritual with Loth-Touched (Refluffed to be from an Orc God).

Point Buy: STR 19, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA 8
Overall scores: STR 35, CON 26, DEX 12, INT 8, WIS 6, CHA 6

Feats
With Chaos Shuffle to replace class feats, location feats and those needed as pre-requisites that weren't needed in it's own right.

Sources:
-Barbarian: 1
-Fighter: 1 (Technically Two cause Exotic Proficiency was needed)
-Monk: 2
-Hulking Hurler: 1 (Technically Two cause Throw Anything)
-Level: 3
-Flaws: 2
-Locations: 6
-Half-Minotaur: 1

Total: 17 (19)

Feats are:
-Power Attack
-Cleave
-Great Cleave
-Improved Bull Rush
-Shock Trooper
-Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
-Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
-Leap Attack
-Reckless Rage
-Air Heritage
-Extra Rage x2
-Deformity Tall
-Inhuman Reach
-Improved Initiative
-Intimidating Prowess
-Throw Anything
-2 Empty Slots I still need to fill

Flaws: Vulnerable & Meager Fortitude

So Basically he'll Pounce in (Preferably flying at 70 feet a round), with a full attack with power attack draining on AC and a Jump right before hand for extra damage. Then with a reach of 40 will proceed to cleave almost every enemy in sight.

Reach 40 = (10 Large + 10 from feats) * 2 Spiked Chain
Attack Roll +18 = -1 Size + 6 BAB + 12 STR + 1 Kensai (Feats cancel out)
Damage 2d6+42 = 2d6 Weapon, +18 STR, +(12 Power Attack)* 2 Leap Attack

I still need to pick traits as well.
And have yet to buy any equipment outside of the Spiked Chain (Non-Upgraded so far, still sorting out the build) and the 300gp for the chaos shuffle items.

So anyone have any additional advice on the build?

[Grod_The_Giant]

So when I juggled dragons in my past campaign it wasn't allowed? :smalleek:
Improvised weapons.

[shaikujin]

If the only thing holding you back from taking half-ogre is fluff, you could say a half-ogre water orc mated with a half-minotaur water orc.

Since you are already large from being half-minotaur, taking half-ogre as well is LA0.

Another LA0 template would be Unseelie Fey. Grants flight speed equal to 2 x land speed. (or is it the fastest non-flying speed?). If it's the latter, Water Orcs have a swim speed as well if land speed gets penalties for some reason.

Dragonborn ritual mean you lose most types of special qualities/attacks, but you keep the movement speed and stats.

Btw, do you lose the track feat from the minotaur template if you go through the Dragonborn Ritual?



Festering Anger is another way to get insane Str, but I'd not seen anyone actually use it in a game. Mentioning it for completeness.



You can use the feat Planar Touchstone : Catalogues of Enlightenment (War) to pick up weapon proficiency and weapon focus using just 1 feat.

Dragonborn allows you to do a diving charge using a piercing weapon to double damage.

I like the Quick trait. Extra movement speed to all movement speeds. Land speed gets increased, which is doubled by Unseelie Fey to determine flight speed. On top of that, you can still add the +10 to your flight speed.

[Aliek]

I'm pretty sure half minotaur and half ogre is actually counter-productive.

Part of the appeal half minotaur has is it changes your size one step to large, so if you're a medium creature, along with the +4 str template bonus, you'd also become large, and thus +8 size bonus, totalizing 12 str.

A half-ogre is already large, so with the +4 from half-minotaur that'll be only a +10.

A half-minotaur orc would rock tough. War hulk/Hulking hurler and stack those str boosters, carry around a piano to throw on your enemies or something.

Pumping str can be pretty fun at times.

[shaikujin]

The Half-Ogre Template, which is in the same Dragon Magazine #313 as the Half-Minotaur Template, is LA 0 if you are already large.


Are you referring to The Half-Ogre Race in Races of Destiny/Savage Species?

[shaikujin]

Knockdown and Improved Trip could be nice too.

Attack as per normal, the high str guarantees that you'll do at leat 10 damage, which trigger knockdown, (high str would guarantee trips as well) which then triggers improved trip. If you dispatch any opponents, it triggers Great Cleave, which triggers knockdown and improved trip again.

Each opponent basically gets hit twice if they don't die before that.

Combat Reflexes might not be worth it as much since you have only 14 dex. But 2 extra AoOs for a build with 40 feet reach would be nice. You can pick up items with +Dex to boost it later.

AoOs should also trigger Knockdown, Improved trip (and Great Cleave if you get a kill).

Karmic Strike could be useful as well. Trip attacks synergizes well with high Str, but it does become a lockdown build somewhat, not sure if that appeals to you.

[Metahuman1]

Just a quick trick before I run out to work. Take a few levels of the Kensai Prc, and get the ability to use concentration to get a Str boost. Not sure how helpful it is cause it's just off the top of my head, gotta run!

[Gwazi Magnum]

Extra Question.

With Flying, is there a way to fly to enemies, attack and then fly away with the remainder of your movement?
Also, other than size and the two feats I already took and spiked chain are there more ways to increase reach?


If the only thing holding you back from taking half-ogre is fluff, you could say a half-ogre water orc mated with a half-minotaur water orc.

Since you are already large from being half-minotaur, taking half-ogre as well is LA0.

Another LA0 template would be Unseelie Fey. Grants flight speed equal to 2 x land speed. (or is it the fastest non-flying speed?). If it's the latter, Water Orcs have a swim speed as well if land speed gets penalties for some reason.

Dragonborn ritual mean you lose most types of special qualities/attacks, but you keep the movement speed and stats.

Btw, do you lose the track feat from the minotaur template if you go through the Dragonborn Ritual?



Festering Anger is another way to get insane Str, but I'd not seen anyone actually use it in a game. Mentioning it for completeness.



You can use the feat Planar Touchstone : Catalogues of Enlightenment (War) to pick up weapon proficiency and weapon focus using just 1 feat.

Dragonborn allows you to do a diving charge using a piercing weapon to double damage.

I like the Quick trait. Extra movement speed to all movement speeds. Land speed gets increased, which is doubled by Unseelie Fey to determine flight speed. On top of that, you can still add the +10 to your flight speed.

Thanks :)

I'm thinking I'm cutting down on the races though (No-Half Minotaur and Loth Touched) since it's basically just ramping up numbers while killing the flavour behind my guy. Dragoborn makes sense though due to his grandfather being a Dragon Disciple Orc, so I'd keep Dragonborn. The fey I use as well though. This is because in my last campaign (where I played as his grandfather) he ended up liking a Nymph a lot, the campaign ended with the two on good terms but nothing was confirmed. It wouldn't be too far a stretch to say some years after the campaign that it went somewhere.

Water Orc I was just explain with Orc Breeding (Direct Parents), since he led a tribe of powerful warriors who ended up being majority orcs.

It makes sense to lose Track from then Dragonborn, but I figured replacing it with the Chaos Shuffle method would prevent it.

Festering anger, it's nice but I don't want to work about diseases on my character. :P

I'll give the touchstones a better look when I have more time available, thanks. :)

I know about the Dragonborn charge bonus I want to use it if possible with the spiked chain.

I did add quick after posting the build, but the double/triple boost you mention combined with fey just seems amazing. :P

40 Base Land Speed + 10 Quck = 50 land speed
50 land speed = 100 fly speed + 10 quick + 30 Air Heritage = 140 feet :P

Now it just seems like overkill, someone please try justifying such insane speed at level 8 for me? :smallbiggrin:


I'm pretty sure half minotaur and half ogre is actually counter-productive.

Part of the appeal half minotaur has is it changes your size one step to large, so if you're a medium creature, along with the +4 str template bonus, you'd also become large, and thus +8 size bonus, totalizing 12 str.

A half-ogre is already large, so with the +4 from half-minotaur that'll be only a +10.

A half-minotaur orc would rock tough. War hulk/Hulking hurler and stack those str boosters, carry around a piano to throw on your enemies or something.

Pumping str can be pretty fun at times.

High STR is amazing, it was what I did with this characters grandfather.
I'm only re-doing the idea since the DM who struggled with dealing with it last time says he knows how to counter it this time, so I'm testing to see if that's true or not. Hence why I'm also asking for roleplay applications to such a build for more creativity around DM barriers and such.


Knockdown and Improved Trip could be nice too.

Attack as per normal, the high str guarantees that you'll do at leat 10 damage, which trigger knockdown, (high str would guarantee trips as well) which then triggers improved trip. If you dispatch any opponents, it triggers Great Cleave, which triggers knockdown and improved trip again.

Each opponent basically gets hit twice if they don't die before that.

Combat Reflexes might not be worth it as much since you have only 14 dex. But 2 extra AoOs for a build with 40 feet reach would be nice. You can pick up items with +Dex to boost it later.

AoOs should also trigger Knockdown, Improved trip (and Great Cleave if you get a kill).

Karmic Strike could be useful as well. Trip attacks synergizes well with high Str, but it does become a lockdown build somewhat, not sure if that appeals to you.

Maybe, but they have to hit me in melee which already means getting through 40 reach (8 squares of AoO) and having a fly speed to say caught up with, so I doubt it.


Just a quick trick before I run out to work. Take a few levels of the Kensai Prc, and get the ability to use concentration to get a Str boost. Not sure how helpful it is cause it's just off the top of my head, gotta run!

I know of it, but that is both temporary and needs many skill points in a build that would be lacking them. Thanks though. :)

[Dlkpi]

Bit of a non-sequitur, but if you're looking for the MOST creative way to build a STR based character... build yourself a muscle wizard.

http://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/e/e4/Muscle_wizard.jpg/300px-Muscle_wizard.jpg

[Gwendol]

Flyby attack: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack

Don't forget to increase the bonuses to Jump from such high speed. Even when not flying you sure will appear like you are jumping around like that.

Take heedless charge for one feat (you're an orc, after all) and defensive sweep, because you want those standing in your death zone to really feel the hurt.

[Chronos]

But I remember once before finding something that let Strength determine psionics. Is there a way to get additional Power points according to my strength score?
You're probably thinking of 3.0 psionics, which was based on a different ability score for each discipline. Which really sucked. But it's been completely replaced by the new psionics rules in 3.5.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Bit of a non-sequitur, but if you're looking for the MOST creative way to build a STR based character... build yourself a muscle wizard.

http://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/e/e4/Muscle_wizard.jpg/300px-Muscle_wizard.jpg

:P

That might be fun, but when I go strength crazy I prefer going as a Martial Character.


Flyby attack: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack

Don't forget to increase the bonuses to Jump from such high speed. Even when not flying you sure will appear like you are jumping around like that.

Take heedless charge for one feat (you're an orc, after all) and defensive sweep, because you want those standing in your death zone to really feel the hurt.

Your Jump skill get's higher from a high movement speed? o.O
Awesome.


You're probably thinking of 3.0 psionics, which was based on a different ability score for each discipline. Which really sucked. But it's been completely replaced by the new psionics rules in 3.5.

Probably. Shame though, cause a good amount of Power Points from Strength would of been amazing.

[Metahuman1]

You could always snag one of the recharge tricks for Psionics, it's not quite massive PP, but it's close.

[Duke Arioch]

This is a character I once played. I only got the build to lvl 18, so you have 2 more levels to play with. It boasts 42 STR without any magic items or spells, is large. If you throw in a wizard friend, and spend a lot of gold, you can make him even stronger (pun intended).

Gari Stonefist, Dwarf (pick some variant dwarf or go with SRD one)

STR 18 (22-23 from levels)
DEX ??
CON 20 (2 from racial)
INT ??
WIS ??
CHA ?? (-2 from racial)

01 BAR flaw: meager fortitude, flaw: shaky, gr. fortitude, extra rage, imp. UAS; rage 1/d, pounce (spirit lion)
02 BAR imp. trip (wolf)
03 BAR power attack
04 BAR rage 2/d
05 FotF (CC) AC bonus (CON), fast movement, feral trance 1/d, primal living, 1d8 UAS
06 FotF endurance; uncanny dodge, untamed strike
07 FotF feral trance 2/d, scent, UAS 1d10
08 BW (CW) black bear form
09 DW (RoS) knockdown; track, trap sense 1
10 DW deep warden
11 BW -
12 BW multiattack; scent
13 BW -
14 BW brown bear form (has imp. grab)
15 WS (CW) morph. immunities, morph. weapons; feat?
16 WS morph. body
17 WS morph. reach
18 WS morph. healing; feat?

By lvl 8 he would have bear form 4/d w/ 28 STR, 14DEX and 24CON w/out any magic items doing 17/12 UAS plus 12/12 claw, 12 bite in 1 full attack.
By lvl 18 he would have 42STR, 14DEX and 32CON doing 33/28/23/18 UAS, 31/31 claw, 31 bite (with 1 more possible bite attack from feral trance), and all that without any magic item.


Just make sure you get 18 STR and 18-20 CON at char creation, and the rest is up to you.
Hope this helps :)

[Gwazi Magnum]

You could always snag one of the recharge tricks for Psionics, it's not quite massive PP, but it's close.

I'm more looking for a high total for the sake of feat requirements.
I doubt I'd actually be spending PP too much as my guy.

Though this does make me ask... my old Orc being dragon disciple has a level in sorcerer so he had a familliar and the message spell.

I was wondering if I could give this guy a familliar and telepathy or something in an easy way that aids him in melee?


This is a character I once played. I only got the build to lvl 18, so you have 2 more levels to play with. It boasts 42 STR without any magic items or spells, is large. If you throw in a wizard friend, and spend a lot of gold, you can make him even stronger (pun intended).

Gari Stonefist, Dwarf (pick some variant dwarf or go with SRD one)

STR 18 (22-23 from levels)
DEX ??
CON 20 (2 from racial)
INT ??
WIS ??
CHA ?? (-2 from racial)

01 BAR flaw: meager fortitude, flaw: shaky, gr. fortitude, extra rage, imp. UAS; rage 1/d, pounce (spirit lion)
02 BAR imp. trip (wolf)
03 BAR power attack
04 BAR rage 2/d
05 FotF (CC) AC bonus (CON), fast movement, feral trance 1/d, primal living, 1d8 UAS
06 FotF endurance; uncanny dodge, untamed strike
07 FotF feral trance 2/d, scent, UAS 1d10
08 BW (CW) black bear form
09 DW (RoS) knockdown; track, trap sense 1
10 DW deep warden
11 BW -
12 BW multiattack; scent
13 BW -
14 BW brown bear form (has imp. grab)
15 WS (CW) morph. immunities, morph. weapons; feat?
16 WS morph. body
17 WS morph. reach
18 WS morph. healing; feat?

By lvl 8 he would have bear form 4/d w/ 28 STR, 14DEX and 24CON w/out any magic items doing 17/12 UAS plus 12/12 claw, 12 bite in 1 full attack.
By lvl 18 he would have 42STR, 14DEX and 32CON doing 33/28/23/18 UAS, 31/31 claw, 31 bite (with 1 more possible bite attack from feral trance), and all that without any magic item.


Just make sure you get 18 STR and 18-20 CON at char creation, and the rest is up to you.
Hope this helps :)

Thanks. Though I don't want the STR to be from transformation. I want it to be in his unaltered humanoid form.

[Metahuman1]

I think there is a feat line that grants and improves Familiars.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I think there is a feat line that grants and improves Familiars.

I know there are.
I'm just curious as to if it would help/aid with melee at all.

[Metahuman1]

Apart form casting buffs for you while you fight (I think they can do that.), and the ever helpful aid another action, I can't really answer that question. I've never cared for Familiars or similar class features myself.

But here's a question this build out got me thinking on. I know one of the broken things about Hulking Hurler is that you can get like a billion damage dice on throwing insanely heavy objects. Could you do similar (though probably to a less extensive result.), if you had a super heavy Melee improvised weapon and it had enough weight too it?


I just have this silly image I'd like to do in a not too serious campaign of a massive muscle bound amazon with *insert large semi-comical but not inertly implausible object here.*, beating the snot out of most things with one shot while whining about there appearance or fussing about how bad they are or how they scared her or something.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Apart form casting buffs for you while you fight (I think they can do that.), and the ever helpful aid another action, I can't really answer that question. I've never cared for Familiars or similar class features myself.

But here's a question this build out got me thinking on. I know one of the broken things about Hulking Hurler is that you can get like a billion damage dice on throwing insanely heavy objects. Could you do similar (though probably to a less extensive result.), if you had a super heavy Melee improvised weapon and it had enough weight too it?


I just have this silly image I'd like to do in a not too serious campaign of a massive muscle bound amazon with *insert large semi-comical but not inertly implausible object here.*, beating the snot out of most things with one shot while whining about there appearance or fussing about how bad they are or how they scared her or something.

I'm pretty sure those buffs have to be from spells I know though. :/

As for the insane damage. I know wielding a wagon does 5d6 damage, but that's where a table I saw end.
But I bet one book has the table continued, I wouldn't know which though.

[Metahuman1]

What book was that in? I'd like to try extrapolating that table if I can, cause I like that idea I had and it sounds like it would be hilarious if I could make it work.

[Gwazi Magnum]

What book was that in? I'd like to try extrapolating that table if I can, cause I like that idea I had and it sounds like it would be hilarious if I could make it work.

It was either PHB or DMG.
I don't remember which, I've had trouble finding it again since that time. :/
Crtl+F through the documents ain't helping though which is odd.

[Pickford]

Gwazi_Magnum:

Grappling down the big bad dragon, hitting and killing everything in one hit, picking up and tossing dragons and castles at people, kicking down the strongest of walls

You auto-fail any hold attempt on an enemy more than 2 size categories bigger. (i.e. If you are medium, and the opponent is Huge...you can't actually force a grapple on them, though they can start one with you).


...try to bear in mind for the exceptionally monstrous builds being suggested...aren't you incredibly likely to get murdered for...well being a giant monster?

[shaikujin]

Extra Question.

With Flying, is there a way to fly to enemies, attack and then fly away with the remainder of your movement?
Also, other than size and the two feats I already took and spiked chain are there more ways to increase reach?


Flyby attack, which someone has already mentioned.

For reach, google for Personman's list. Offhand I remember MoI was one way, but his list is more complete.





I know about the Dragonborn charge bonus I want to use it if possible with the spiked chain.



Since spiked chain is a piercing weapon, this would work.





I did add quick after posting the build, but the double/triple boost you mention combined with fey just seems amazing. :P

40 Base Land Speed + 10 Quck = 50 land speed
50 land speed = 100 fly speed + 10 quick + 30 Air Heritage = 140 feet :P

Now it just seems like overkill, someone please try justifying such insane speed at level 8 for me? :smallbiggrin:



It can be done at lower levels than level 8, so it's perfectly justifiable to be able to do it at level 8 :)

Wizards can do it better.

Even monks can do it better.

See? Perfectly justifiable :)




Maybe, but they have to hit me in melee which already means getting through 40 reach (8 squares of AoO) and having a fly speed to say caught up with, so I doubt it.


Good point, Karmic strike isn't that helpful.
Knockdown and Improved Trip is still ok if you haven't found better options to dcfs to.

[shaikujin]

...try to bear in mind for the exceptionally monstrous builds being suggested...aren't you incredibly likely to get murdered for...well being a giant monster?


So in your games, the DM sends murderers to go after players who just by circumstances of birth, are big and ugly?


Orcs (and Trolls) are people too!

Interestingly, folks don't think twice of the countless bands of adventurers that invade homes of (aka lairs), murdering kobolds, orc, dragons and their families, children, eggs etc. For the express purpose of XP and loot.

And when monsters raid a village or two, carrying off a few villagers, everyone's up in arms.

It's discrimination I tell you!



Note: Due the the Dragonborn Ritual, the character would look just like any large sized Dragonborn. So he should be more or less safe from most murdering hobos/parties.

[Pickford]

So in your games, the DM sends murderers to go after players who just by circumstances of birth, are big and ugly?


Orcs (and Trolls) are people too!

Interestingly, folks don't think twice of the countless bands of adventurers that invade homes of (aka lairs), murdering kobolds, orc, dragons and their families, children, eggs etc. For the express purpose of XP and loot.

And when monsters raid a village or two, carrying off a few villagers, everyone's up in arms.

It's discrimination I tell you!



Note: Due the the Dragonborn Ritual, the character would look just like any large sized Dragonborn. So he should be more or less safe from most murdering hobos/parties.

No, I was actually referring to what the Wizards of the Coast product Cityscape has to say on the issue (under the section "Monsters In Their Midst")


any "monster" that seeks to make its home in the city has many years of proving itself-assuming it can avoid being slain or imprisoned on sight-before it can approach anything resembling a normal life.

[shaikujin]

No, I was actually referring to what the Wizards of the Coast product Cityscape has to say on the issue (under the section "Monsters In Their Midst")

Ahh I see.

It's a bit vague though, away from books, are there more rules after that passage?

What criterias would have to be met to have a player race constitute as monsters in this context? Being non-humanoid?

Being monstrous humanoid?

Would a large sized Dragonborn be considered a monster?

Would Half Giants be considered monsters?

Would Orcs and half Orcs be considered monsters?

Would Elves and half elves be considered monsters?

Would a human in an elven/dwarven/orcish city be considered a monster?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Flyby attack, which someone has already mentioned.

For reach, google for Personman's list. Offhand I remember MoI was one way, but his list is more complete.

I did see the list already, however I missed the fact that I applied for Extended Reach due to Inhuman Reach.
Thanks for this :)


Since spiked chain is a piercing weapon, this would work.

Awesome :)
Are there any special rules to Charging in the sense of flying or reach?

As in if I have a reach of 50 ft can I end the charge 50 feet away?
If I'm using flyby attack is there anyway to turn around again after the charge or do I need to fly right over the enemy?


It can be done at lower levels than level 8, so it's perfectly justifiable to be able to do it at level 8 :)

Wizards can do it better.

Even monks can do it better.

See? Perfectly justifiable :)

Thank you! :smallbiggrin:


Good point, Karmic strike isn't that helpful.
Knockdown and Improved Trip is still ok if you haven't found better options to dcfs to.

Combined with Great Cleave, Shock Trooper and Dragonborn Dive attacks.
It seems ridiculous. Almost guaranteed to kill someone in two attacks, so Great Cleave just lets me go on to the next target.

Only hole I can see is a natural 1, but is there a way to remedy this? :P

[Gwazi Magnum]

Also, what's the source that details bonus STR according to size?

[Pickford]

Ahh I see.

It's a bit vague though, away from books, are there more rules after that passage?

What criterias would have to be met to have a player race constitute as monsters in this context? Being non-humanoid?

Being monstrous humanoid?

Would a large sized Dragonborn be considered a monster?

Would Half Giants be considered monsters?

Would Orcs and half Orcs be considered monsters?

Would Elves and half elves be considered monsters?

Would a human in an elven/dwarven/orcish city be considered a monster?

As a DM these are probably questions you would want to ask yourself:

I disagree that it's vague. This is a standard question that a DM should be considering, how NPCs will react to characters. If you create a world where Half Giants are normal, than of course they aren't monsters. But if you're playing in one where they are rare, and Giants are monsters to the standard population of whatever region the game is taking place in...than it makes sense they would react badly (to include: murdering the PC on sight).

To answer your questions on Elves/Half-Elves (Orcs/HalfGiants are rolled into monters based off the sections in the book)


Other races often object to elves involving themselves in politics, and a few cities even enact laws explicitly forbidding or restricting such activities.


Half-elves might still face some amount of prejudice


urban orcs usually find themselves in trouble with the authorities

So yes, Half-Giants, Dragonborn et al would be considered monsters according to the standard rules.

[shaikujin]

Thanks for this :)


You are very welcome, glad to be able to help :)




Awesome :)
Are there any special rules to Charging in the sense of flying or reach?


When you fly, you don't have to worry about all the terrain and ground based obstacles when charging your opponent. And from flying above, you would have a direct line to your targets. So it's pretty nice! (Of course, that also means ranged opponents have unobstructed LOS to you)




As in if I have a reach of 50 ft can I end the charge 50 feet away?


Yes, you can stop the movement part of the charge 50 ft before your opponent and initiate your attack.

From
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge

"You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent"

Do note that normally, you need to move at least 10 ft directly towards your target as part of the charge action.

So if an opponent is already 20 ft away, when you charge, you have to close to 10 ft.




If I'm using flyby attack is there anyway to turn around again after the charge or do I need to fly right over the enemy?


You can move anywhere after the charge attack if you still have movement left, doesn't have to be over or past your opponent. Though how quickly you can turn around depends on your maneuverability:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#tableManeuverability

Note that you have used up your move (Flyby Attack) and standard actions (standard action charge) by now and cannot initiate another attack until the next round. So it's normally better to get out of harm's way.

That is, unless something triggers an AoO from you (and/or Greater Cleave), or you have a way to get more actions.

[shaikujin]

Also, what's the source that details bonus STR according to size?

It's in the DMG iirc, it's also on the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases

Refer to the table for both old and new sizes. For each size increase, raise Str/Con/Natural Armor by the amount indicated and reduce Dex/AC/Attack.

[shaikujin]

So yes, Half-Giants, Dragonborn et al would be considered monsters according to the standard rules.

So it doesn't even have to be "exceptionally monstrous builds being suggested", right?

As long as any half-elf/orc/dragonborn PCs go to any cities, there's a similar danger. Even humans, being the most prevalent race in most settings, would probably have similar issues of being murdered when they step into dwarven/elven cities. Not to mention other planes.

Your game group is really harsh.

I can understand that as a DM, to add to game play, I'd want to pose fun social challenges (or even street combat) for half-elf/orc/other monstrous players that visits villages/cities that are known to be even slightly xenophobic.

But to simply murder the players just because of their race seems like "Rocks fall, everyone dies" kind of DM'g.

Of course if you are referring to these monstrous players having extra chances of CR relevant combat, and hence extra chance at XP & loot, then that's probably welcome (at least in my group).

[shaikujin]

Combined with Great Cleave, Shock Trooper and Dragonborn Dive attacks.
It seems ridiculous. Almost guaranteed to kill someone in two attacks, so Great Cleave just lets me go on to the next target.

Only hole I can see is a natural 1, but is there a way to remedy this? :P

Yup, that's why the extra attack from knockdown + improved trip is so nice. Allows you to toggle great cleave more often.

Also, they continue to be useful even if you are facing a single tough BBEG instead of a bunch of mooks.


As to the natural 1 question, non-cheesey solution is rerolls - eg luck domain, luck feats, loading up on 0-wish luck blades, mantle of 2nd chances, there's also a cheaper 5000 gp item in MIC as well (which name escapes me).

Cheesey method involves the Surge of Fortune spell and psionic tattoos to always get a natural 20. The build in my null uses this. And I had since found a way to trigger it as much as I like in the same round.

Though it is really cheesey. It has the potential to turn a 0 BAB commoner into a 1 hit kill crit fisher.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm also asking this here cause the topic I made for it got completely ignored...

Does anyone know of any location feats you can get that aren't from Complete Scoundrel?
I tried looking for them in the books people said they were from but I couldn't find them anywhere, and once again I ran out of feat slots and this build being an area control flier who takes extra utility in strength is using up a lot of them, even with chaos shuffle where I don't need to worry about Prerequisites.


When you fly, you don't have to worry about all the terrain and ground based obstacles when charging your opponent. And from flying above, you would have a direct line to your targets. So it's pretty nice! (Of course, that also means ranged opponents have unobstructed LOS to you)

Nice. I'm working on getting high HP and some miss chance items though to try to counteract this.


Yes, you can stop the movement part of the charge 50 ft before your opponent and initiate your attack.

Sweet! :)


You can move anywhere after the charge attack if you still have movement left, doesn't have to be over or past your opponent. Though how quickly you can turn around depends on your maneuverability:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#tableManeuverability

Note that you have used up your move (Flyby Attack) and standard actions (standard action charge) by now and cannot initiate another attack until the next round. So it's normally better to get out of harm's way.

That is, unless something triggers an AoO from you (and/or Greater Cleave), or you have a way to get more actions.

I thought Charges had to be in a straight line though.

Also are there ways to increase maneuverability?


It's in the DMG iirc, it's also on the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases

Refer to the table for both old and new sizes. For each size increase, raise Str/Con/Natural Armor by the amount indicated and reduce Dex/AC/Attack.

I happened to find this in the Monster Manual a few hours after asking the question.
Thanks though, I had no idea that going large gave such a large STR bonus or that it also gave CON. :D

[shaikujin]

I'm also asking this here cause the topic I made for it got completely ignored...

Does anyone know of any location feats you can get that aren't from Complete Scoundrel?
I tried looking for them in the books people said they were from but I couldn't find them anywhere, and once again I ran out of feat slots and this build being an area control flier who takes extra utility in strength is using up a lot of them, even with chaos shuffle where I don't need to worry about Prerequisites.


Athenaeum of Boccob (Complete Champion Pg 151) costs 2,000 and grants Sudden Empower & Sudden Maximize.

Metamagic Storm (Complete Mage Pg 151 as well!) costs 5,000 and grants any 1 Metamagic feat for 1 year.

For more feats,
1) Read the feats section with regards to Armor Proficiency Light/Medium/Heavy, Shield Proficiency and Tower Shield Proficiency.
These are all bonus feats that classes with these proficiencies get. DCFS them away before you multiclass into another class that grants them. Then DCFS away those you don't need (like shield). If you can reduce ACP of the armor you are using to 0, you don't even need armor proficiencies.

2) AE&G has rules for items to grant feats, add 5,000 gp to the cost for each feat. If the feat has prerequisites, add 5,000 gp for each prereq. Replace some of your own feats that do not need to be used as prereqs with these items.

3) Intelligent items has a list of powers to chose from. Some of them grant feats. Use them like option 2.

4) Each Weapons of Legacy have a specific ritual to grant the "Least Legacy" feat. You can have multiple Legacy weapons that you don't use and perform only the Least Legacy ritual for them. Then DCFS away.

5) Cheesy - Use Planar Touchstone feat to get War domain. Which grant 2 feats. DCFS both away. DCFS Planar Touchstone away. Repeat.

6) Cheesier - Get a Familiar or Psycrystal that grants Alertness when they are near, DCFS away. Step away 5 ft, then step back to regain Alertness. Repeat.

7) TO cheesy level - Savage Species custom race, any race that have 2 OR MORE bonus feats is +1 LA. Make a custom race with a billion bonus feats. It still costs only 1 LA. Buy off LA. Ignore section that says you should compare the custom race with an actual race to see if it's balanced.




I thought Charges had to be in a straight line though.


Yup, the movement you make as part of the charge needs to be in a straight line.

But you can take a normal movement action before you charge. This allows you to move to anywhere on the map you want up to your normal movement rate. This is where Flyby Attack comes in so that you don't need to use up all your movement speed before attacking.

Now that you have taken your movement, you can no longer do a full action charge.

You can still charge, but this means you are restricted to only a standard action charge.

Standard action charge means you cannot move double your normal distance before you attack. You can only move up to 1x your movement speed. This movement is part of the charge and needs to be in a straight line (barring other abilities that allows you to charge in non straight lines like the Drunken Master).

This movement that is part of your charge, ends at the square you stopped at before you make your attack rolls. Some DMs allow remaining movement to be used to continue moving in a straight line.

Because of Flyby Attack, when you took the movement action, it allows you to make a standard action (which was used to do a standard action charge) at any stage during your move action (even when you have barely moved 0 ft). The remaining movement from this is the part that allows you to move to somewhere else after your charge.




Also are there ways to increase maneuverability?


You can do it with feats like Improved Flight which give +1 step.
Or items like Greater Pectoral of Maneuverability which gives +2 steps. (Draconomicon pg 83).

[Gwazi Magnum]

Athenaeum of Boccob (Complete Champion Pg 151) costs 2,000 and grants Sudden Empower & Sudden Maximize.

Metamagic Storm (Complete Mage Pg 151 as well!) costs 5,000 and grants any 1 Metamagic feat for 1 year.

For more feats,
1) Read the feats section with regards to Armor Proficiency Light/Medium/Heavy, Shield Proficiency and Tower Shield Proficiency.
These are all bonus feats that classes with these proficiencies get. DCFS them away before you multiclass into another class that grants them. Then DCFS away those you don't need (like shield). If you can reduce ACP of the armor you are using to 0, you don't even need armor proficiencies.

2) AE&G has rules for items to grant feats, add 5,000 gp to the cost for each feat. If the feat has prerequisites, add 5,000 gp for each prereq. Replace some of your own feats that do not need to be used as prereqs with these items.

3) Intelligent items has a list of powers to chose from. Some of them grant feats. Use them like option 2.

4) Each Weapons of Legacy have a specific ritual to grant the "Least Legacy" feat. You can have multiple Legacy weapons that you don't use and perform only the Least Legacy ritual for them. Then DCFS away.

5) Cheesy - Use Planar Touchstone feat to get War domain. Which grant 2 feats. DCFS both away. DCFS Planar Touchstone away. Repeat.

6) Cheesier - Get a Familiar or Psycrystal that grants Alertness when they are near, DCFS away. Step away 5 ft, then step back to regain Alertness. Repeat.

7) TO cheesy level - Savage Species custom race, any race that have 2 OR MORE bonus feats is +1 LA. Make a custom race with a billion bonus feats. It still costs only 1 LA. Buy off LA. Ignore section that says you should compare the custom race with an actual race to see if it's balanced.

You probably just set me for life... :)

I love the armor Proficiency one, that's a ton of feats right there! XD
I'll probably avoid 5-7 though. That's just insane easy and OP.


Yup, the movement you make as part of the charge needs to be in a straight line.

But you can take a normal movement action before you charge. This allows you to move to anywhere on the map you want up to your normal movement rate. This is where Flyby Attack comes in so that you don't need to use up all your movement speed before attacking.

Now that you have taken your movement, you can no longer do a full action charge.

You can still charge, but this means you are restricted to only a standard action charge.

Standard action charge means you cannot move double your normal distance before you attack. You can only move up to 1x your movement speed. This movement is part of the charge and needs to be in a straight line (barring other abilities that allows you to charge in non straight lines like the Drunken Master).

This movement that is part of your charge, ends at the square you stopped at before you make your attack rolls. Some DMs allow remaining movement to be used to continue moving in a straight line.

Because of Flyby Attack, when you took the movement action, it allows you to make a standard action (which was used to do a standard action charge) at any stage during your move action (even when you have barely moved 0 ft). The remaining movement from this is the part that allows you to move to somewhere else after your charge.

So basically I only do the straight line before the attack and can keep moving how I want after the attack?


You can do it with feats like Improved Flight which give +1 step.
Or items like Greater Pectoral of Maneuverability which gives +2 steps. (Draconomicon pg 83).

Awesome, now most of the movement penalties are gone. Thanks! :)