Restricted-List Casters: Brainstorming

[Grod_The_Giant]

The fixed list casters are one of the best ideas WotC came up with. They're flavorful, good at what they do, and fairly versatile without being absurd. I'd love to 'brew a few more, to try and cover all the arcane-casting bases. But before I start, I'd like to brainstorm, try to figure out what I'll need.

Already, we have:

Beguiler: Illusion and Enchantments.
Dread Necromancer: Necromancy.
Healer*: ...Damage!
Warmage: Damage and battlefield control*

*In theory

To that list, I'm thinking about adding:


Conjurer: Summons and... well... spells about conjuring objects out of nothing.
Shaper: Transmutation.... but like the Conjurer, focusing more on flavorful spells that actually involve changing than those like haste that are just sort of generic buffs.
Seer: Divinations, for the most part. I'm thinking probability magic as well, or possibly a secondary rogue-y role, a la Alex Versus.
Warden: Defenses, defenses, defenses! Abjurations and protective buffs would be this guy's shtick. Might fold Healer into this.
???: More offensively-minded buffs like haste and fly.

Along with an Ultimate Magus style theurge PrC for mixing two (or possibly more) of these guys.

So I guess the question is... what am I missing, and where should I put it?

(On the Divine side, I've done the old "Clerics cast spontaneously with a list based on their god's domains." Druids are basically forced to take the Shapeshift and Spontaneous Divine Caster ACFs; I might go whole-hog and write a fixed-list for them as well).

[gorfnab]

A Utility Mage - teleportation (plane shift, teleport, dimension door), travel (mount, phantom steed, regal prosession), adventuring type spells (knock, shatter, sending, message), security (alarm, secure hut, magnificent mansion)

[Deophaun]

Healer's aren't fixed list. They still have to prepare their spells ahead of time. If healers were fixed list... they'd still be terrible. Not only are they mediocre at their stated role, but their role is so narrow that they just sort of stand to the side on the battlefield and hope someone on their side gets hurt so they can feel useful.

And that's the lesson here. Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, these classes can stand on their own two feet. A seer? That's going to be worth nothing but a couple level dips. Warden? Great, you're like the monk: no one can hurt you, but no one cares as you aren't a threat. There's a reason these two concepts are PrCs, not base classes.

When you get to Shaper and, more specifically, Conjurer, you can quickly cross into Tier 1/2 territory, as their concepts are nothing more than embodying one of the two most powerful and versatile schools of magic. Is your Shaper not going to have polymorph or shapechange? How are you going to justify leaving gate outside the Conjurer's bailiwick? Or prevent characters from Advanced Learning those spells?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Healer's aren't fixed list.
I did say "in theory."


A seer? That's going to be worth nothing but a couple level dips.
Hence my musings on a secondary role beyond "casting divination spells."


Warden? Great, you're like the monk: no one can hurt you, but no one cares as you aren't a threat.
That one would be a party support character, like the marshal. But I might perhaps fold the unnamed "offensive buffer" into this guy.


When you get to Shaper and, more specifically, Conjurer, you can quickly cross into Tier 1/2 territory, as their concepts are nothing more than embodying one of the two most powerful and versatile schools of magic. Is your Shaper not going to have polymorph or shapechange? How are you going to justify leaving gate outside the Conjurer's bailiwick? Or prevent characters from Advanced Learning those spells?
The primary goal is the simplicity of the fixed-list caster verses a prepared, or even choose-your-own spells. Balance is secondary-- though it will be greatly improved in any case. Some borked spells are probably too iconic to leave off the list, though I might shift things like alter self and polymorph up a level, but for the rest... these aren't going to be "all [school] spells" casters-- I will be putting more thought into the lists than that. The Shaper, for instance, probably won't be getting haste, or fly, or knock (apart from a few Advanced Learnings)-- instead, we're talking enlarge person, gaseous form, stone shape, things like that.

[CyberThread]

Well if you want to do in theory, may I suggest , Warlock as that is such, Duskblade, and runescarred beserker.


Assassin and Suel Arcanamach

[FinnDarkblade]

Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, these classes can stand on their own two feet. A seer? That's going to be worth nothing but a couple level dips. Warden? Great, you're like the monk: no one can hurt you, but no one cares as you aren't a threat. There's a reason these two concepts are PrCs, not base classes.

When you get to Shaper and, more specifically, Conjurer, you can quickly cross into Tier 1/2 territory, as their concepts are nothing more than embodying one of the two most powerful and versatile schools of magic. Is your Shaper not going to have polymorph or shapechange? How are you going to justify leaving gate outside the Conjurer's bailiwick? Or prevent characters from Advanced Learning those spells?

Also keep in mind though that another aspect of the fixed-list casters is that they actually have class features outside of their spells. This gives another opportunity to add flavor to the classes along with another, admittedly not very powerful, tool to help balance the schools. Caster's specialized in less powerful schools can be given more powerful/versatile features and casters in more powerful schools less powerful/versatile. It won't solve everything but depending on how cleverly it's done, it could help quite a bit.

[Snowbluff]

I would roll the conjurer into warmage. Get some orbs.

The abjurer could be made into a 3/4 d8 chassis for some melee, but I think it would make entering Abjurant Champion silly easy.

Healer is best used casting Sanctified and Corrupt spells. :smalltongue:

[zlefin]

Aren't there several of these in the homebrew section already that cover the other mage types?

I remember sketching out a plan for a transmuter one, but it clocked in too powerful iirc, so I didn't post it, as a lot of the point is getting them down to tier 3.

[Novawurmson]

I really like restricted-list casters, too. The PF Summoner is a decent look at what the conjurer should look like.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Aren't there several of these in the homebrew section already that cover the other mage types?
Yeah, probably. I'd still like to do my own versions, just for the fun of it.

[JaronK]

I think a base class version of the Abjurant Champion would be great. Think of a magic heavy gish whose primary abilities involve self buffs for defense and anti magic spells. Use Abjurant Champion, UA variant Abjurer, and Focused Specialist on Abjuration as the inspiration for this class.

The idea would be to specifically make a class that's really good at attacking enemy casters by controlling magic in the area.

JaronK

[Iferus]

The divine oracle could be expanded into a base class to make a powerful seer. Make a spell list, add some tracking skills and you're done.

[Snowbluff]

For shaper, how about tuning down the power level by making it similiar to wildshape ranger? They would get a few spells, but most of their shaping is done as a class feature.

I think a base class version of the Abjurant Champion would be great. Think of a magic heavy gish whose primary abilities involve self buffs for defense and anti magic spells. Use Abjurant Champion, UA variant Abjurer, and Focused Specialist on Abjuration as the inspiration for this class.

The idea would be to specifically make a class that's really good at attacking enemy casters by controlling magic in the area.

JaronK
This sounds good. I'd like to point out I've played a few Abj Champ Masters, and they can really wreck spells really easily.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I like how the OP says they're good at what they do, and then 2 of the 4 he lists are Healer and Warmage... :smalltongue:

I like the idea of them, but between those two failing epically and Beguiler being too strong compared to a bard (who prior to beguiler WAS "the enchantment and illusions" guy), it's obvious they haven't been implemented very well so far. Heck, I'm mostly claiming ignorance on Dread Necro; for all I know, that class doesn't work or is overpowered, too.

[Snowbluff]

Dread Necro functions quite well. They get a few good debuffs and only a couple of their class features are dysfunctional. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

A Utility Mage - teleportation (plane shift, teleport, dimension door), travel (mount, phantom steed, regal prosession), adventuring type spells (knock, shatter, sending, message), security (alarm, secure hut, magnificent mansion)

So what's he do the rest of the time?

[Sception]

Theme casters are great. My favorite classes in 3e, actually. As mentioned, the conjuration theme-caster has pretty much already been done in Pathfinder's summoner (literally the only class I've ever had fun playing in that game), so you might as well add that to your list.

For any theme healer or divine caster, remember that, while party healing can generally be covered with a wand, party divine casters are also typically expected to be able to fix a wide variety of curses, diseases, and conditions during down time that all tend to have separate spells to fix - it's one of the many reasons spontaneous divine casters with limited spells known tend to fail - you don't have enough spells known to take both restoration and remove disease and stone to flesh and so on. Point is, remember to include all of those on the known list for divine theme casters / healers.


Healers / Diviners also need some gimmick other than in-battle healing, given how poor that gimmick tends to be (useless or until someone has access to heal, then entirely covered by that one single spell). Even if you give them swift action healing abilities (which you should) so that healing in combat even approaches being an option, you still need them to have some sort of other gimmick to spend their standard action on. Maybe a range of buff, summoning, battlefield control, or holy energy laser beam spells? Not sure, but you're likely going to need to write a full spell list, and maybe the actual spells themselves, if you want a theme caster healer to actually work.


Otherwise, yeah, I'd love to see a full caster shape shifter / polymorpher, maybe with a druid-like wild shape ability? idk

[Grod_The_Giant]

I like how the OP says they're good at what they do, and then 2 of the 4 he lists are Healer and Warmage... :smalltongue:
Warmage isn't the best, but it's a fun class and hardly an epic failure. As for Healer... you did notice the "in theory" footnote, right? I'm well aware of the pile of fail that class is.

As for the Summoner... I like the class, and I'd totally play one, but it's not quite what I want. Too much focus on the eidolon, and it only goes up to 6th level spells, so it wouldn't be symmetrical with the others.

So, the big questions at this point is, I think, are does the hypothetical Warden become a base-class Abjurant Champion, or a souped-up Healer/defensive buffer? and where do the offensive buffs fit?

[The-Mage-King]

I actually did an "abjurer" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177861) a while back. Folded some of Conjuration into it, too. Kinda wound up being anti-spellcaster, but... May be worth taking a look at.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So, the big questions at this point is, I think, are does the hypothetical Warden become a base-class Abjurant Champion, or a souped-up Healer/defensive buffer? and where do the offensive buffs fit?

I'd give most of the defensive buffs to the Seer: the Seer would focus on Divination and Abjuration so he can see threats coming and then do something about it. :smallwink: The Warden could then be Conjuration/Abjuration, specifically the terrain-related conjurations (wall spells and such) and "wards" (e.g. forbiddance, glyph of warding, and other passive/reactive area abjurations), so he can control and protect an area and the people within it.

I'd actually give most of the offensive buffs to the warmage. It's a war mage--not just a blasting mage or evocation mage--and you need good mobility to get troops into position, enhanced weapons to break through enemy defenses, etc. If nothing else, being able to turn a mindless artillery platform into a fast, well-defended, flying artillery platform would be valuable.

[bekeleven]

I actually did an "abjurer" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177861) a while back. Folded some of Conjuration into it, too. Kinda wound up being anti-spellcaster, but... May be worth taking a look at.

Indeed. I attempted a tier 3 summoner here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16179650#post16179650). Some people said that giving a class SM9 makes it tier 2 regardless of anything else, including the tier system's definition of tier 2. :smallsigh: But if such a feat is possible, I think I pulled it off.