Characters and LA

[Xuldarinar]

A few general questions on the subject really.

What templates are worth their level adjustment for player characters, and what is the highest level adjustment one should ever even consider having?

[Ruethgar]

Mineral Warrior
Feral
Unseelie Fey
Arctic
Dragonborn
Magic Blooded

I would say that you probably shouldn't go above LA +3.

[Karnith]

Some other good choices include Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur (Dragon Magazine #313; each is usually LA +1, and they can be stacked together for a total of only LA +1), Lolthtouched (MMIV; LA +1), Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a), Dark (Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave has probably the best version, but the one in ToM is fine; LA +1), and Dragonspawn (Dragonlance Campaign Setting; White Dragonspawn is the best at LA +1, but Black and Green Dragonspawn are LA +2 and can be fine).

I personally don't like playing characters with more than LA +1, but depending on your starting level up to +3 can be pretty workable if LA buyoff is allowed.

[ArcturusV]

I generally see the limit of useful LA at +1. If it was Gestalt and you can just stack it on one side... then it doesn't matter. Go ahead, take +10 LA, won't impact you that badly from what I've seen.

But... when you start talking about +3 LA, think of what you're talking about. In terms of say, a Fighter, you're talking -3 BaB, -1 to your saves, potentially -2 to Fort. 2 less Fighter Feats, - 25 HP on average.

In return you usually get something that doesn't quite equal to it. Like take a good +3 LA I like, such a Demonblooded. So that you gain:
30' (20' if small) fly speed. Summon Monster I as a 1/day SLA (CL 1). Electric Immunity. Fire Resistance 10, Poison Immunity. DR 5/good or holy. Natural Attack: Claw x2 at 1d3. Telepathy 100'. Natural Armor +1 (I'm presuming a level 4 character).

The Fly Speed is the best benefit. But at level 4 it's not really paying off unless you fight something like a Dire Bear. The DR and Resistance will help with the -25 HP issue, but only having 13 HP at a level where your enemy is guaranteed to overcome that +1 natural armor, and be able to inflict 18 HP to drop you (And then take falling damage if you're flying to finish you off...). A summon monster I just isn't going to cut the mustard at this level either. That one round of having a single Fiendish Rat is just going to do squat.

Compare to the level 4 Human Fighter. Who has +3 BaB, so +6 damage over you on his attack. He lacks the DR and Resistances, but with 38 HP he's able to take a hit much more than you. You lack flight, but you make up for it in having +2 Fighter Feats, +1 Any Feat, allowing you to either be on the way to mastering your combat trick, or at least be well rounded with stuff like Power Attack, Improved Initiative, etc.

Unless Flight and Telepathy comes into play A LOT in your campaign... you're not getting the mileage. You're strictly worse because you took it.

Even worse if you're talking about casters. +3 LA means you're anywhere from 1 to 2 full spell levels behind your party and where you should be. That guy casting Sleep at level 4 just ain't anywhere near as imposing as the guy who breaks out Glitterdust.

I dunno. Anytime I have a player approach me with something where they want to play some Half-Dragon Vampire or the like (Always someone who does) I try to talk them out of it. No one wants to coddle the guy in a level 11 party who only has 12 HP and poor saves.

[KoboldMasteRace]

I think the only template of even +2 LA that I've ever seen worth considering without LA-buyoff rules in place has been the Saint template. Other than that, more than +1 is infinitely not worth it... If you're a caster.

If you're a mundane with a high enough Con to offset loss of HP? The rules change entirely, and you should stack as many as you can without making your BAB suck.

[Xuldarinar]

I appreciate the input thus far. Just to add another question to the mix:

When there is the option for it, is it better to take a template as a whole all at once, or to take the template over the course of a couple of levels?

For example, would it better to simply take the lich template, or to take the lich template class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a)?

[KoboldMasteRace]

Taking it all at once is strictly better from a mechanical standpoint, and with something like Lich in specific it only really makes a lot of sense taking it all at once rather than somehow "developing" into a Lich over time. However, it might be more fun for your group as a whole if you take the progression rather than all-at-once.

[ArcturusV]

Honestly I'd take it all in a single lump. With an acquired template like that, you're not starting the game with it generally speaking. In the case of something like the Lich, the chief reasons you would take it (such as practical immortality on an undead chassis), requires level 4 of that class anyway.

It's one of those times where the power spike of a template is actually worth it. Because if the entire party is level 11, and you suddenly get bumped up 2 or 4 LA with Powers in return, it does make you a bit tougher than the party. And by the time they catch up level wise with you, it's not as painful.

... though still painful to be level 11 in a level 15 party, and casting level 6 spells when your allies have level 8. But level 6 spells are also at a point where they're always more or less effective. Unlike the level 1 versus level 3 concern where Level 1 spells (At CL 1) are basically approaching useless compared to what you face.

[lunar2]

as has been stated, a caster never wants more than 1 LA, maybe 2 with buyoff, but only if you're already high enough to contribute despite being behind.

a martial character can get away with more LA if they get the CON and STR boosts to make up for the lost HD and BAB. especially if you are also getting one of those "necessary" abilities like a fly speed or alternate senses.

[Zanos]

Phrenic is pretty rad for +2 LA. The fact that psi like abilities are always treated as being augmented up to your ML is amazing. In addition, pretty much every power it gets is awesome, with only a couple of exceptions. Combine with magic in the blood for fun.

[Bandari]

Whoever decided that feral was worth +1 LA was smoking crack.

[Angelalex242]

Speaking of LA, Half Celestial is rated +4 in 3.5, and +2 in Pathfinder.

Which system has the right of it for how fair, over all, that template is?

[KoboldMasteRace]

Speaking of LA, Half Celestial is rated +4 in 3.5, and +2 in Pathfinder.

Which system has the right of it for how fair, over all, that template is?

Honestly, the template just doesn't work overall. +2 feels too weak for the humongous stat boosts and swell abilities going by the Level Adjustment rules, but at the same time, just having it at +2 LA is already fairly crippling for a character. +4 is WAY too much and basically a nerf-to-death sentence, but it follows its own system's guidelines better. Gonna say PF's +2 is more fitting, but it isn't quite as powerful as the 3.5 one anyway if I remember correctly.

[Angelalex242]

Creating A Half-Celestial

"Half-celestial" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or higher and nonevil alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A half-celestial uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type

The creature’s type changes to outsider. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves. Size is unchanged. Half-celestials are normally native outsiders.

Speed

A half-celestial has feathered wings and can fly at twice the base creature’s base land speed (good maneuverability). If the base creature has a fly speed, use that instead.

Armor Class

Natural armor improves by +1 (this stacks with any natural armor bonus the base creature has).

Special Attacks

A half-celestial retains all the special attacks of the base creature and also gains the following special abilities.

Daylight (Su)

Half-celestials can use a daylight effect (as the spell) at will.

Smite Evil (Su)

Once per day a half-celestial can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.


HD

Abilities

1-2 Protection from evil 3/day, bless
3-4 Aid, detect evil
5-6 Cure serious wounds, neutralize poison
7-8 Holy smite, remove disease
9-10 Dispel evil
11-12 Holy word
13-14 Holy aura 3/day, hallow
15-16 Mass charm monster
17-18 Summon monster IX (celestials only)
19-20 Resurrection

Spell-Like Abilities

A half-celestial with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher has two or more spell-like abilities, depending on its Hit Dice, as indicated on the table below. The abilities are cumulative

Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level equals the creature’s HD, and the save DC is Charisma-based.

Special Qualities

A half-celestial has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities.
•Darkvision out to 60 feet.
•Immunity to disease.
•Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10.
•Damage reduction: 5/magic (if HD 11 or less) or 10/magic (if HD 12 or more).
•A half-celestial’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
•Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35).
•+4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.

Abilities

Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4.

Skills

A half-celestial gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) × (HD +3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-celestial gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

Challenge Rating

HD 5 or less, as base creature +1; HD 6 to 10, as base creature +2; HD 11 or more, as base creature +3.

Alignment

Always good (any).

Level Adjustment

Same as base creature +4.

(That's the 3.5 version...)

Most half-celestials are born of a mortal who loved a good outsider, but powerful holy magic can also create one.

Creating a Half-Celestial

“Half-celestial” is an inherited or acquired template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more. A half-celestial creature retains the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

CR: HD 5 or less, as base creature + 1; HD 6–10, as base creature + 2; HD 11 or more, as base creature + 3.

Alignment: Any good.

Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves.

Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +1.

Defenses/Qualities: A half-celestial gains darkvision 60 ft.; immunity to disease; +4 racial bonus on saves vs. poison; acid, cold, and electricity resist 10; DR 5/magic (if HD 11 or less) or 10/magic (if HD 12 or more); and SR equal to CR + 11 (maximum 35).

Speed: Unless the base creature flies better, the half-celestial flies at twice the base creature's land speed (good maneuverability).

Special Abilities: A half-celestial gains the following special abilities:


Smite Evil (Su)

Once per day, as a swift action, the half-celestial can smite evil as a paladin of the same level as its Hit Dice. The smite persists until target is dead or the half-celestial rests.

Spell-Like Abilities

A half-celestial with an Int or Wis score of 8 or higher has a cumulative number of spell-like abilities depending on its Hit Dice. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level equals the creature's HD (or the caster level of the base creature's spell-like abilities, whichever is higher).


HD

Abilities

1–2 Protection from evil 3/day, bless
3–4 Aid, detect evil
5–6 Cure serious wounds, neutralize poison
7–8 Holy smite, remove disease
9–10 Dispel evil
11–12 Holy word
13–14 Holy aura 3/day, hallow
15–16 Mass charm monster
17–18 Summon monster IX (celestials only)
19–20 Resurrection

Abilities: A half-celestial gains a +4 bonus on three ability scores of its choice and a +2 bonus on the other three.

Skills: A half-celestial with racial Hit Dice has skill points per racial Hit Die equal to 6 + its Intelligence modifier. Racial class skills are unchanged from the base creature's. Skill ranks from class levels are unaffected.

(Pathfinder version)

They both have:
+1 NA
Flight at double landspeed (Good maneuverability)
Equal spell like abilities
Darkvision 60'
Immunity to Disease
+4 poison saves
Resistance 10 cold, acid, elec
DR 5/Magic to 11 HD, DR 10/magic at 12+ HD
Ability to overcome DR/Magic by natural attacks and any weapon it wields

Differences:
Spell Resistance:10+HD in 3.5 vs. 11+HD in Pathfinder. Advantage, Pathfinder
Stat Boosts:
+4 Str, Con, Wis, Cha, +2 Dex, Int vs. 3x+4 of your choice and 3x+2 of your choice. Advantage 3.5, though Pathfinder does offer flexibility.
Smite Evil:+ damage only vs. Paladin Smite. Advantage Pathfinder
Daylight at will vs. nothing. Advantage 3.5
Stackability with Aasimar:+5 LA vs. +2 LA. Advantage:Pathfinder.

Overall, I'd say the Pathfinder variant is stronger, unless you love daylight at will.

[Xuldarinar]

I'd say the PF half-celestial looks a little more worth it, though perhaps a bit strong for it's LA. Then again I'm not the best judge on that.

While going over some templates, I took notice of one from Savage Species that saw an appearance later on in dragon magazine. I find it interesting, but there is one big problem with it, the level adjustment.


For reference:

Umbral Creature Template; Savage Species [3e]

“Umbral creature” is an acquired template that can be added to any aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid. The creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) must have a Charisma score of at least 8. An umbral creature has all the base creature’s characteristics except as noted here.
Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead, and it takes the incorporeal subtype.
Hit Dice: All the base creature’s Hit Dice change to d12s.
Speed: The creature gains a fly speed of 40 feet if it did not already have a faster fly speed, and its maneuverability becomes perfect.
AC: The creature loses its natural armor bonus but gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier or +1, whichever is greater.
Attacks: The creature loses all its attacks and gains an incorporeal touch attack.
Damage: An umbral creature’s incorporeal touch attack deals Strength damage based on the creature’s size, according to the table below.
Special Attacks:An umbral creature loses the base crea- ture’s special attacks and gains the special attack of Strength damage, described below.
Strength Damage (Su): The touch of an umbral creature deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living foe. A creature reduced to Strength 0 by an umbral creature dies.

Size|Damage
Fine|1
Diminutive|1d2
Tiny|1d3
Small|1d4
Medium-size|1d6
Large|1d8
Huge|2d6
Gargantuan|2d8
Colossal|4d6

Special Qualities: An umbral creature gains the four special qualities described below.
Create Spawn (Su): Any aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by an umbral creature rises as an umbral creature in 1d4 rounds. Such a spawn is under the command of the umbral creature that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s death. The spawn does not possess any of the abili- ties it had in life but gains the umbral creature template. An umbral creature can control a number of spawn equal to its HD × 2. If it creates a spawn that causes it to exceed this limit, the spawn longest under its control is released.
Incorporeal Subtype: An umbral creature can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, +1 or better magic weapons, spells, and spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. The creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source, except for force effects or attacks made with ghost touch weapons. An umbral creature can pass through solid objects, but not force effects, at will. Its attacks ignore natural armor, armor, and shields, but deflection bonuses and force effects work normally against them. An umbral creature always moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be.
Turn Resistance (Ex): An umbral creature gains turn resist- ance +2.
Undead Traits: An umbral creature is immune to mind-affect- ing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, and any effect that requires a For- titude save unless it also works on objects. It is not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, or death from massive damage. An umbral creature cannot be raised, and resurrection works only if it is willing. The creature has darkvision (60-foot range).
Abilities: +2 Dex, –4 Int (minimum 2), +2 Wis, +2 Cha. As an incorporeal undead, an umbral creature has no Strength or Constitution score.
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground.
Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3–4), or swarm (6–11).
Challenge Rating: Base creature’s CR +3.
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil.
Level Adjustment: +5.


Umbral Creature Class: Dragon Magazine #322 [3.5]

Level|CR|Special
1st|+0|Darkvision, light fortification, Move Silently +5, -4 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
2nd|+1|Moderate fortification, Move Silently +10, Dex +2
3rd|+2|Fly 40 ft., heavy fortification
4th|+2|Undead type, turn resistance +2
5th|+3|Create spawn, incorporeal subtype, inescapable craving

[Chronos]

That umbral template doesn't look obviously wrong to me: +5 is a lot, but on the other hand, incorporeal is really nice. The only other incorporeal template I know of is ghost, and that's also a +5, so it at least seems consistent.

[Xuldarinar]

That umbral template doesn't look obviously wrong to me: +5 is a lot, but on the other hand, incorporeal is really nice. The only other incorporeal template I know of is ghost, and that's also a +5, so it at least seems consistent.

Granted. But then in lies the question, would it be worth that steep LA?

[ImaDeadMan]

Getting back to the original question, I believe the most LA any character should take when starting off is +3 and even then, only if you're level 10+. The reason being, is that you're losing so much with the LA. You lose all kinds of class features, HD, BAB, saves, spells, and you're behind the rest of the party and feel useless if your LA is too high. As has been stated above, the benefits from a lot of templates simply isn't worth the LA. The best time to have LA is in the mid to high levels of gameplay since then, you won't feel so far behind and your character is still fairly useful in most situations.

The other issue with higher LA is that with each point of LA, the level at which you are allowed to buy off your first point of LA increases by 3. Rules for LA buyoff here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

[Prime32]

Speaking of LA, Half Celestial is rated +4 in 3.5, and +2 in Pathfinder.

Which system has the right of it for how fair, over all, that template is?Pathfinder doesn't have LA; the +2 is a CR adjustment. In 3.5 the template's CR adjustment is +1 to +3 depending on level.
EDIT: Wait, where are you getting that +2 from (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/half-celestial)?

Also, relevant: Tier system for templates (brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044)

[OldTrees1]

Remember the Template Classes from Savage Progression allow multiclassing. Thus the Ghost template class is actually 5 +1LA templates. You can choose how much Ghost you want to take.

With that in Mind,
Ghost gives: Undeath, Incorporeal, Lesser Ghost Power, Rejuvenation & Major Ghost Power for +4LA (5th level is not worth the +1LA)

Umbral gives: Undeath, Incorporeal, Create Spawn & Strength Drain for +5LA

My rule of thumb is that each ability worth mentioning can justify up to +1LA.
The first 4 levels of the Ghost template class can justify +5 LA. (Value > Cost :smallsmile:)
The Umbral Template can justify merely +4LA. (Value < Cost :smallfrown:)

[Tokiko Mima]

The +4 LA Pixie race can be worth it if it is matched with an especially suitable class, like warlock. It's all about the near perfect synergy for that combo, especially if you're going Glaivelock.

[Fax Celestis]

Half-Fey is pretty awesome for +2: whole host of SLAs, blanket immunity to enchantment, non-magical flight, and some solid stat boosts.

[Lans]

What's the source for demonblooded?

[Angelalex242]

Yeeeeah, if your goal is to be Holy, the Saint Template is definitively where it's at...

But that makes a different question:

If the Half-Celestial Template varies in CR by HD, does that mean, if you're GMing one, they should only be one level down at low levels, 2 levels down at mid levels, and 3 levels down at high levels?

[Curmudgeon]

Whoever decided that feral was worth +1 LA was smoking crack.
Why do you say that? There are some things to note about the application of Feral:

It changes your type to Monstrous Humanoid. As such, you do not qualify for the Humanoids and Class Levels exchange of 1 racial Hit Die for your first class level. Enjoy your 1 HD of Monstrous Humanoid and +1 LA while everyone else has 2 class levels to your none.
All the Feral Special Attacks are based on monster HD, not total HD. So your 1 HD of Monstrous Humanoid will give you Improved Grab, but you won't get any more items from that table. Only the Feral Special Qualities are based on total HD. If you follow the rules, I don't think Feral is worth more than +1 LA.

[ArcturusV]

What's the source for demonblooded?

Book of Erotic Fantasy.

[Chronos]

Quoth Angelalex242:

If the Half-Celestial Template varies in CR by HD, does that mean, if you're GMing one, they should only be one level down at low levels, 2 levels down at mid levels, and 3 levels down at high levels?
Challenge rating and level adjustment are not the same thing. The CR of Half-Celestial depends on what you're sticking it on, but the LA of it does not.

[Xuldarinar]

Remember the Template Classes from Savage Progression allow multiclassing. Thus the Ghost template class is actually 5 +1LA templates. You can choose how much Ghost you want to take.

With that in Mind,
Ghost gives: Undeath, Incorporeal, Lesser Ghost Power, Rejuvenation & Major Ghost Power for +4LA (5th level is not worth the +1LA)

Umbral gives: Undeath, Incorporeal, Create Spawn & Strength Drain for +5LA

My rule of thumb is that each ability worth mentioning can justify up to +1LA.
The first 4 levels of the Ghost template class can justify +5 LA. (Value > Cost :smallsmile:)
The Umbral Template can justify merely +4LA. (Value < Cost :smallfrown:)

With template classes, how would buy off be effected by it's LA? Is there a way you could space out level gains in it to eliminate the LA entirely prior to epic levels?

For example, if you are willing to space out the ghost template class, could this work?
Gain levels in Ghost right after class levels: 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th and 13th.
Taking the LA buyout at class levels: 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, and 16th.

[Angelalex242]

The Half Celestial LA, however, is inordinately high in 3.5 for the benefits. (It just isn't worth 4 levels, which is why it's very low on the tier list)

In Pathfinder, at +2 ECL, it's now more reasonable to consider giving up two levels for it. As such, the template isn't worth 4 levels, but it might well be worth two.

[lunar2]

Why do you say that? There are some things to note about the application of Feral:

It changes your type to Monstrous Humanoid. As such, you do not qualify for the Humanoids and Class Levels exchange of 1 racial Hit Die for your first class level. Enjoy your 1 HD of Monstrous Humanoid and +1 LA while everyone else has 2 class levels to your none.
All the Feral Special Attacks are based on monster HD, not total HD. So your 1 HD of Monstrous Humanoid will give you Improved Grab, but you won't get any more items from that table. Only the Feral Special Qualities are based on total HD. If you follow the rules, I don't think Feral is worth more than +1 LA.

monster HD isn't a defined game term. it doesn't say RHD, so it means all HD. typos are fun.

as for trading out RHD for class levels, the heading says humanoid, but the actual rules text says creatures. and if we go and look right in the MM, we see non-humanoids who are presented with class levels, not RHD. such as the half-dragon human fighter. either humans never had RHD to begin with (in which case a feral human still has no RHD) or nonhumanoids still count as creatures when it comes to trading out 1 RHD in the rules text (in which case a feral human still has no RHD).

[OldTrees1]

With template classes, how would buy off be effected by it's LA? Is there a way you could space out level gains in it to eliminate the LA entirely prior to epic levels?

For example, if you are willing to space out the ghost template class, could this work?
Gain levels in Ghost right after class levels: 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th and 13th.
Taking the LA buyout at class levels: 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, and 16th.

LA Buyoff enables you 1 buyoff after 3X levels from the previous buyoff/LA change where X= Your current LA.

So a Ghost Halfling Rogue would look like
Halfling Rogue 1 / Ghost 1 / Rogue 3 / Buyoff 1 / Ghost +1 / Rogue +3 / Buyoff +1
So Buyoffs at Ghost 1/Rogue 4, Ghost 2/Rogue 7, Ghost 3/Rogue10

So your example is correct.

However if they wanted to get some of the higher Ghost powers earlier, there would be a higher cost:

Taking Ghost after class levels 1, 1*, 10, 13, 16
*(2 Ghost levels in a row)
LA Buyoff after class levels 7, 10, 13, 16, 19


Edit: I do not know if a Necropolitian could count the level lost as a level towards the next LA buyoff point.

[Angelalex242]

So Aasimar could elimate their ECL at level 3...

But Half Celestials under 3.5 could only do so at level 12...

And Half Celestials in Pathfinder can do so at level 6?

[lunar2]

So Aasimar could elimate their ECL at level 3...

But Half Celestials under 3.5 could only do so at level 12...

And Half Celestials in Pathfinder can do so at level 6?

aasimar at level 4, actually. LA +1 and 3 class levels.

half celestials at 16. la+4 12 class levels.

PF half celestials never, since pathfinder has no LA buyoff.

[Angelalex242]

That's not what this says.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

[Karnith]

That's not what this says.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm
An Aasimar character would be eligible to buy off her LA at character level 3, which would be ECL 4 (because Aasimar have LA +1). A Half-Celestial character would be eligible to buy off his (first point of) LA at character level 12, which would be ECL 16.

[OldTrees1]

So Aasimar could elimate their ECL at level 3...

But Half Celestials under 3.5 could only do so at level 12...

And Half Celestials in Pathfinder can do so at level 6?

Buyoff at character level 3, 6, 9 and 12 using the transition template class. (ECL 4, 7, 10 and 13 being reduced to 3, 6, 9 and 12)

I do not know the Pathfinder part (I thought the designers forbid monster characters by not having rules for monster characters.)

[Angelalex242]

Oh, I see. The table is correct, because you pay it off when you appear to hit ECL 4, then you drop to be ECL 3 when you're done, hence, you're paid off at 'level 3.'

[lunar2]

no, they just changed it so that ECL = CR. a half celestial's CR adjustment of 2 is its LA of 2.

[OldTrees1]

That's not what this says.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

For instance, a gnoll's level adjustment is +1. When a gnoll character gains his third class level (remember, the gnoll's 2 starting Hit Dice don't count), he can pay an XP cost to reduce his level adjustment to +0.

If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.

I think it is clear.
A Drow has a LA of 2. After 6 class levels (ECL8) they can buy off 1 LA. Their LA is now 1 (ECL7). The process repeats. After 3 more class levels (ECL10) they can buy off 1 LA. There LA is now 0 (ECL9). If they took the first level of the Ghost template class their LA would become 1 (ECL10). The process repeats. After 3 more class levels (ECL13) they can buy off 1 LA. There LA is now 0 (ECL12).

[Angelalex242]

I wonder, though...Vampire is noted as the weakest template available...

What should the actual ECL of a vampire be? That is, if Vampire was supposed to be as good a template as Saint, what ECL would you have to chop it down to? It starts at +8, so there's LOTS of room for chopping.

[OldTrees1]

I wonder, though...Vampire is noted as the weakest template available...

What should the actual ECL of a vampire be? That is, if Vampire was supposed to be as good a template as Saint, what ECL would you have to chop it down to? It starts at +8, so there's LOTS of room for chopping.

Well if we apply the up to +1LA per mention worthy ability:
1) Undeath [Ex: Necropolitian]
2) Energy Drain [Ex: Soul Eater class]
3) Energy Drain continued
4) Create Spawn
5) Fast Healing [Ex: Evolved Undead]
6) Alternate Form & Gaseous Form
7) Coffin

So I would cap it at +7 LA before factoring in the vulnerabilities. Your evaluation may vary.

However to bump it to the level of Saint(3 abilities / +2 LA) would require vampire to have a +4 LA before factoring in the vulnerabilities.

Saint
1) Stat to AC
2) Fast Healing
3) Protective Aura

I consider the Vampire Vulnerabilities (Unable to enter areas[Garlic or Private Ownership], Being held back with a standard action, Running Water) to be very crippling. I would consider it to be equivalent to -4 abilities. (So +3LA or +2 LA when compared to non RP saint) Again your evaluation may vary

[Chronos]

Quoth lunar2:

monster HD isn't a defined game term. it doesn't say RHD, so it means all HD. typos are fun.
It was a defined term in 3.0, which is the environment Savage Species was written in. 3.0 "monster HD" means the same thing as 3.5 "racial HD".

[Angelalex242]

Hmmm. How would you evaluate vampire vs. saint if the RP factor of the Saint (ZOMGWTFBBQ Good) is left in?

[lunar2]

It was a defined term in 3.0, which is the environment Savage Species was written in. 3.0 "monster HD" means the same thing as 3.5 "racial HD".

huh. learn something new every day. i thought savage species had already switched over to 3.5 terms.

edit: at saint. RP requirements don't factor in to how good a something is, imo. RP and mechanics are separate. "needing to be alignment X" is not a reason any class is in its tier, so it shouldn't be a reason a template is in its tier.

[OldTrees1]

Hmmm. How would you evaluate vampire vs. saint if the RP factor of the Saint (ZOMGWTFBBQ Good) is left in?

With the RP factor Saint become a balanced template.
3 abilities + RP factor / +2LA ~= 7 abilities + Vamp Vulnerabilities / +3 LA


edit: at saint. RP requirements don't factor in to how good a something is, imo. RP and mechanics are separate. "needing to be alignment X" is not a reason any class is in its tier, so it shouldn't be a reason a template is in its tier.

The RP requirement of Saint specifies "Must make an extraordinary sacrifice (not necessarily his or her life) for the good of another" and other such requirements. So unlike the RP requirement of Dragonborn(must be good), the RP requirement of Saint has significant mechanical influence.

[Zanos]

For vampire to be reasonably playable at all, created vampire spawn need to have a cap, and created vampires should be completely free-willed. Otherwise every humanoid you fight is potentially another soldier, complete with class levels and awesome template abilities.

[Angelalex242]

Oh, THAT's why it's +8. Every being you turn into a vampire is your slave, so it doesn't matter if YOU suck...as long as you've got an army of slaves that don't.

[Doc_Maynot]

The RP requirement of Saint specifies "Must make an extraordinary sacrifice (not necessarily his or her life) for the good of another" and other such requirements. So unlike the RP requirement of Dragonborn(must be good), the RP requirement of Saint has significant mechanical influence.

Don't forget those three required exalted feats to gain the template, the fact that you can't have it until level 6, and the fact that one " Must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be exemplary of the exalted path described in this book." And that can be considered to put a paladin's code to shame. :smallannoyed:

[OldTrees1]

For vampire to be reasonably playable at all, created vampire spawn need to have a cap, and created vampires should be completely free-willed. Otherwise every humanoid you fight is potentially another soldier, complete with class levels and awesome template abilities.

Agreed on the need for a cap to create spawn. Normally I assume DMs don't allow 8th level clerics to have a Wightapocalypse.

[Angelalex242]

It's not THAT damn hard to meet the standards of Saint unless you've got a 'Gotcha' DM.

A helpful DM will just tell you 'Oh, you need to do X to continue being saintly', at which point, you nod and do X.

And if RP is enforced, FOR THE LOVE OF ALMIGHTY WHOEVER YOU WORSHIP, buy a phylactery of faithfulness. It will conform to your code. Even the supercode of a Saint.

[Ghost Nappa]

A lot of people are saying you shouldn't take large LA's unless you are at level X+ and such.

I disagree with this position for one specific scenario:

If the player with the LA adjustment shows up more often than those without, in such a way that the LA EXP slowdown "cancels out" with their relative participation.

EX: I'm play a Drow Bard in a campaign right now. Only myself and the druid have attended every meeting. I'm close to hitting Level 2, he's close to hitting Level 3, everyone has barely hit Level 2.

[lunar2]

@sacrifice: not necessarily mechanical in nature. allowing yourself to be taken prisoner so some villagers can escape would qualify, for example.

@exalted feats now that is a mechanical prerequisite. touch of golden ice, nymphs kiss, and what else? i don't think there are any more really good exalted feats.

@code of conduct. doesn't actually make the template less good, because you aren't going to take the template unless you planned on playing that way anyway.

[ArcturusV]

An interesting point Ghost Nappa. But I feel that it's undercut by something else.

Basically the longer you sit at level 1, level 2... the less control you have over your character. Those are dangerous times where your resources are sharply limited, your equipment is meager, and you are desperately seeking to gain enough power to get a level of security and surety to your adventuring life. Do you really want to be sitting at 8 or so HP when your teammates are more around 15-20 HP and monster encounters are scaling up to significantly challenge those totals? Granted at 1 level down, it's not so bad compared to say, the goober in one of my campaigns who picked up Vampire and had 12 HP at level 9.

[Angelalex242]

That's why we've just determined the actual LA of Vampire is something like +3, at best. +8 is just plain dumb, unless the idea of the character is a vampire apocalypse.

[OldTrees1]

It's not THAT damn hard to meet the standards of Saint unless you've got a 'Gotcha' DM.

A helpful DM will just tell you 'Oh, you need to do X to continue being saintly', at which point, you nod and do X.

And if RP is enforced, FOR THE LOVE OF ALMIGHTY WHOEVER YOU WORSHIP, buy a phylactery of faithfulness. It will conform to your code. Even the supercode of a Saint.

Unlike the Paladin Code, the Saint requirements seems to be meant as a penalty/cost. DM's shouldn't make you fall but neither should they let you off the hook for the cost implied.

Sidenote: I do not think the Phylactery should exist/have a cost. The Player and DM should settle that OOC.

However if you do not see the RP requirements as a cost(less severe interpretation of the requirements?), then use an evaluation that does not consider them.

@Ghost Nappa. Players that get more xp than other players are advised to use less optimization so that they do not overshadow the other players. Taking lots of LA early is one way to do so.

[lunar2]

An interesting point Ghost Nappa. But I feel that it's undercut by something else.

Basically the longer you sit at level 1, level 2... the less control you have over your character. Those are dangerous times where your resources are sharply limited, your equipment is meager, and you are desperately seeking to gain enough power to get a level of security and surety to your adventuring life. Do you really want to be sitting at 8 or so HP when your teammates are more around 15-20 HP and monster encounters are scaling up to significantly challenge those totals? Granted at 1 level down, it's not so bad compared to say, the goober in one of my campaigns who picked up Vampire and had 12 HP at level 9.

well that was his own fault, since you can't be a vampire before you have at least 5 HD anyway. he should have been a vampire spawn, which iirc is LA +2 according to the Libris Mortis monster class.

[Angelalex242]

No, the phylactery of faithfulness is GREAT. It means that the supercode of a Saint becomes quite easy to manage, as the faithfulness will just act as a shock collar should you accidentally do something wrong.

"Oops, shouldn't have tried to kill that kobold, guess I need to take him prisoner..."

Besides, players are only human, we might have a bad day at work or a fight with our spouse, and accidentally be a bit meaner then we should be. Faithfulness will counter that.

[OldTrees1]

No, the phylactery of faithfulness is GREAT. It means that the supercode of a Saint becomes quite easy to manage, as the faithfulness will just act as a shock collar should you accidentally do something wrong.

"Oops, shouldn't have tried to kill that kobold, guess I need to take him prisoner..."

Besides, players are only human, we might have a bad day at work or a fight with our spouse, and accidentally be a bit meaner then we should be. Faithfulness will counter that.

I seem to have miscommunicated.

I do not think it should be an Item.
I do not think it should be a class feature/template special quality.
I do think it should be the result of clear OOC communication between DM and Players.

1) This promotes better communication
2) It avoids the whole "Paladins are immoral __s that need an item to know right from wrong"

[ArcturusV]

True perhaps Angelalex, but I feel that his point is that characters shouldn't have to have one.

I mean, if you're a Paladin, or a Saint, or any sort of Exalted Character, your vows, code, principles, etc, is at the very core of your being. Not only are they a fundamental part of who you are, but you derive power and strength from it.

So if you were about to violate it, either because your DM or you have a different understanding of the codes, or because you were having a bad day, etc, a good DM should drop a hint (Without the need of an item) like "... are you sure? Something about this situation strikes the very core of your being with a sense of wrongness". Rather than waiting to go "A HA! YOU FELL! How dare you not buy a silly magic item!"

Granted the DM hint like that won't protect you from something like a Helm of Opposite Alignment, just actions. So the phylactery still has purpose in that it can give you mystical "Something is trying to subvert you" warnings, rather than being needed as a warning for things your character should already be aware of.

[Angelalex242]

The corollary to that are GMs are people too, and they could also have a bad day at work or a fight with their spouse.

With the magic item, if the GM pulls "Aha, you fell, moron!" You can counter with, "I did not, I've got a magic item that'd warn me if I were about to fall, and if you don't give me fair warning, you can't make me fall."

In short, the phylactery of faithfulness is an item whose purpose is to prevent Jackass GMs from doing bad things to your holy powers, or to rein yourself in when you are the jackass yourself.

[Curmudgeon]

as for trading out RHD for class levels, the heading says humanoid, but the actual rules text says creatures.
Certainly; that means Humanoid creatures. After establishing what creature type the rule is for in the header, it would be needlessly redundant to repeat the "Humanoid" (i.e., to write "Humanoid creature" instead of just "creature") in the rule text.

and if we go and look right in the MM, we see non-humanoids who are presented with class levels, not RHD. such as the half-dragon human fighter. either humans never had RHD to begin with (in which case a feral human still has no RHD) or nonhumanoids still count as creatures when it comes to trading out 1 RHD in the rules text (in which case a feral human still has no RHD). or the Monster Manual has bad examples, which don't follow the rules they're supposed to illustrate. (Shocking, isn't it? :smallwink:)

[OldTrees1]

The corollary to that are GMs are people too, and they could also have a bad day at work or a fight with their spouse.

With the magic item, if the GM pulls "Aha, you fell, moron!" You can counter with, "I did not, I've got a magic item that'd warn me if I were about to fall, and if you don't give me fair warning, you can't make me fall."

In short, the phylactery of faithfulness is an item whose purpose is to prevent Jackass GMs from doing bad things to your holy powers, or to rein yourself in when you are the jackass yourself.

The man with a crutch can stand up after being patted on the back. The man without a crutch has the reflexes not to stumble when patted on the back. If you rely on a crutch like the Phylactery then you will not have the necessary OOC discussion with the GM. Don't let an item make jackasses out of you and your GM. Mature discussion should always be the first line of defense. Not "Did so. Did not."

[lunar2]

Certainly; that means Humanoid creatures. After establishing what creature type the rule is for in the header, it would be needlessly redundant to repeat the "Humanoid" (i.e., to write "Humanoid creature" instead of just "creature") in the rule text.
or the Monster Manual has bad examples, which don't follow the rules they're supposed to illustrate. (Shocking, isn't it? :smallwink:)

well, let's skip the creature type discussion and get to the crux of the matter. no humanoids are ever printed with 1 RHD to begin with. a human never had an RHD to trade away. a feral human has no RHD because a base human has no RHD, and nothing printed states otherwise.

[Curmudgeon]

well, let's skip the creature type discussion and get to the crux of the matter. no humanoids are ever printed with 1 RHD to begin with. a human never had an RHD to trade away.
Well, that's nonsense. Humanoids in the Monster Manual are printed with 1 class level of Warrior as example creatures. Just because the book uses that convention for display purposes says nothing about them never having racial hit dice before their first class level. (If it doesn't have any hit dice in D&D, it's not a creature.) If an example Humanoid has 1 HD of Warrior, it got that by exchanging their single Humanoid Hit Die.

If it's a Humanoid (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_humanoidtype&alpha=H) creature, it has the following characteristics (excerpted):
Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

Features: A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class.
Check out every other creature type in D&D, and you won't find any such 1 HD exchange requirement. It's a Humanoid-only rule.

[lunar2]

well, damn. you're right. although pixies do have the same rule, so that's weird.

that said, i found a little exploit with this. according to the DMG, creatures with 1 RHD still gain a feat with their first class level. so a feral human fighter will start with 4 feats (1 to start the game, 1 for being human, 1 for first class level, and for fighter). so that's a weird little exploit. having 1 monstrous humanoid HD on a melee build isn't so bad, anyway, since it buffs your bad saves. especially since it is a D10 HD, instead of the usual D8.

[Curmudgeon]

well, damn. you're right. although pixies do have the same rule, so that's weird.
There are race-specific 1 HD conversion rules for Pixies (Fey) and Warforged (Constructs). Other than that, I think it's just Humanoids.

[Zanos]

There are race-specific 1 HD conversion rules for Pixies (Fey) and Warforged (Constructs). Other than that, I think it's just Humanoids.
The example Aasimar and Tiefling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm) are both first level warriors, despite being outsiders. There's no specific rule that says they exchange their 1 RHD for a class level, I believe. Whether or not you consider that an incorrect creature is up to you.

[Angelalex242]

Considering Aasimar and Tiefling would be FAR more formidable with an outsider hit die then they would as a warrior (Hell, the races themselves might be more powerful overall if they could choose to take an outsider HD...), I'd say that's proof that anything with 1 HD loses it when they take a class.

[Craft (Cheese)]

The corollary to that are GMs are people too, and they could also have a bad day at work or a fight with their spouse.

With the magic item, if the GM pulls "Aha, you fell, moron!" You can counter with, "I did not, I've got a magic item that'd warn me if I were about to fall, and if you don't give me fair warning, you can't make me fall."

In short, the phylactery of faithfulness is an item whose purpose is to prevent Jackass GMs from doing bad things to your holy powers, or to rein yourself in when you are the jackass yourself.

If the DM is having a bad day and is out to screw you over to make himself feel better, all the magic items in the world can't help you. OoC issues need OoC solutions.

Either way, the phylactery doesn't work because codes of conduct don't work.

[lunar2]

Considering Aasimar and Tiefling would be FAR more formidable with an outsider hit die then they would as a warrior (Hell, the races themselves might be more powerful overall if they could choose to take an outsider HD...), I'd say that's proof that anything with 1 HD loses it when they take a class.

actually, no. i considered that argument, but curmudgeon is correct. examples are just that, examples. the RAW is only directed at humanoids and certain select races that are mentioned in their entries. templated humans in particular you could get by with because humans aren't monsters, but that's it.