I have to admit (rift)

[SavageWombat]

Though I'm against it still, if Rich has them going through the rift at this point - I'll admit it's justified now. The degree to which they're screwed is much higher.

Anyone else willing to bend on this point?

[Bulldog Psion]

The point seems massively moot since they're miles away from it, with a wizard incapable of teleporting.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'd rather the Snarl come out of the Rift, eat Tarquin's soul as slowly and painfully as possible and tell the OOTS they need to stop Xykon.

[Kish]

Though I'm against it still, if Rich has them going through the rift at this point - I'll admit it's justified now. The degree to which they're screwed is much higher.

Anyone else willing to bend on this point?
I was much more willing to "bend," as you put it, when the rift was, oh I don't know, anywhere near them.

If they have the ability to run all the way back (without an allosaur mount), through Tarquin's army, and into the rift, then they have either the ability to get away, or the ability to kill Laurin and Tarquin...with nonmagical daggers that do 1d4 damage per hit...because apparently Laurin and Tarquin will just be spending a large number of rounds drooling on their shoes.

[factotum]

Have to go with Kish and Bulldog Psion here--they're a good long way from the rift with Tarquin's army between them and it, there's just no opportunity for them to dive through it now.

[Souhiro]

They still have Laurie's portals. I don't know if those are still open.

But Durklon needs to keep himself under V's cloak, or he'll burn. Belkar should be out, or just plain dead (It depends if Tarquin was willing to use his Improved Unarmed Strike, a feat that he has, since it's prequesite to Snatch Arrows)

But then, remember: Tarquin is the kind of man that would shove a sword in his beloved son. Most of XXI century parents has trouble even when they need to use a lancet to get a drop of theys babies' blood, and Tarquin wounded his son, saying "You'll live".

[SlashDash]

That would make absolutely no sense.
If they get defeated by Tarquin, what odds could they possibly have against Xykon?

The orders has to win this chance around to show they are getting more powerful or else the entire story is doomed to begin with. Even if more powerful simply means more optimized because they are actually working together as a team - for once.

I also don't get why everyone assume the order is down for the count?
They still have heals from Elan, Haley is hardly injured, and clearly no one yet has any Xs on their eyes so everyone can still have a go at it.

I'm getting slightly more a vibe like Durkon vs Malack. Each side has a different strip in which he is winning.

[Trillium]

I also don't get why everyone assume the order is down for the count?
They still have heals from Elan, Haley is hardly injured, and clearly no one yet has any Xs on their eyes so everyone can still have a go at it.


Elan has no healing spells left, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html) for Banjo's sake!

[Souhiro]

Well, the Order has being fighting for the whole day.

They fought the Linear Guild (Two, Three times?) navigated some traps, battlen against Redckloak elemental, then against an entire army, and now against some Low-Epic dudes. Even the Order of the Scribble would be in trouble by now!

Yes, against Xykon and his slaves they would have to endure the same, or maybe more. But this -should they survive- would be a good test of their wit and strenght.

Also, they still can win. Because they have something that you, stats obsessed readers, have easily forgotten, and that is called Morale, or sometimes... HOPE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/Dset34geertu4534t891.gif).

[SlashDash]

Elan has no healing spells left, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html) for Banjo's sake!

Sorry, I missed that. My bad.
Still, I see no reason to assume there's a TPK going to happen

[Ermete]

I'd rather the Snarl come out of the Rift, eat Tarquin's soul as slowly and painfully as possible and tell the OOTS they need to stop Xykon.

Definitely. But only if the Snarl brings along also some refreshment and snacks.

[ThePhantasm]

That would make absolutely no sense.
If they get defeated by Tarquin, what odds could they possibly have against Xykon?

The orders has to win this chance around to show they are getting more powerful or else the entire story is doomed to begin with.

Hmm... I wonder... how on earth could the Order prove that they could defeat Xykon?

If only they had defeated him once before!

[Ninja Dragon]

That would make absolutely no sense.
If they get defeated by Tarquin, what odds could they possibly have against Xykon?

The orders has to win this chance around to show they are getting more powerful or else the entire story is doomed to begin with. Even if more powerful simply means more optimized because they are actually working together as a team - for once.

I also don't get why everyone assume the order is down for the count?
They still have heals from Elan, Haley is hardly injured, and clearly no one yet has any Xs on their eyes so everyone can still have a go at it.

I'm getting slightly more a vibe like Durkon vs Malack. Each side has a different strip in which he is winning.

I don't think they are going to defeat Xykon by overpowering him. The guy is millions of levels ahead of them, is a spellcaster, a lich, and he has Redcloak who is ALSO stronger than any member of the Order. And the Monster.

I think Xykon will be like Voldemort in Harry Potter. Someone you don't defeat, but outsmart. And I think it will be more interesting this way.

So yeah, they can lose to Tarquin and still be able to defeat Xykon. They have done that before, haven't they?

[Cirin]

I don't think they are going to defeat Xykon by overpowering him. The guy is millions of levels ahead of them, is a spellcaster, a lich, and he has Redcloak who is ALSO stronger than any member of the Order. And the Monster.

I think Xykon will be like Voldemort in Harry Potter. Someone you don't defeat, but outsmart. And I think it will be more interesting this way.

So yeah, they can lose to Tarquin and still be able to defeat Xykon. They have done that before, haven't they?

What if the MitD betrays Xykon?

We know Xykon has dominated the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon, but that's the only compulsion we know he has.

What if O'Chul's words to him, making him realize who his friends and enemies really are, helps and at a crucial moment the MitD turns on Xykon. Wouldn't have to be for long, in fact Xykon might be the only person who could defeat the MitD. . .but it would be a very powerful and very unexpected distraction at a key moment, maybe even one that could do a lot of damage to Xykon in that one round before he could react.

[Jay R]

I'd rather the Snarl come out of the Rift, eat Tarquin's soul ...Definitely. But only if the Snarl brings along also some refreshment and snacks.
If you're going to eat it, a soul is refreshment and snacks.



What if O'Chul's words to him, making him realize who his friends and enemies really are, helps and at a crucial moment the MitD turns on Xykon.
"Xykon! Your broken corpse will taste delicious lightly seasoned with nutmeg!"

(He has to go with this one. Xykon has no blood.)

[SlashDash]

I don't think they are going to defeat Xykon by overpowering him. The guy is millions of levels ahead of them, is a spellcaster, a lich, and he has Redcloak who is ALSO stronger than any member of the Order. And the Monster.

I think Xykon will be like Voldemort in Harry Potter. Someone you don't defeat, but outsmart. And I think it will be more interesting this way.

So yeah, they can lose to Tarquin and still be able to defeat Xykon. They have done that before, haven't they?

They did it before as a comic relief deus-ex-machine (as the Giant himself called it) which is exactly why he need to tear them apart (figuratively) in the next battle. Otherwise how is Xykon established as a threat?

The order can outsmart Xykon in the end, they can even outsmart Tarquin. There's no problem with that. But unless our heroes actually win this battle, they can't go to the finale battle. What would be the point in terms of story telling?

It needs to be established that the protagonists are the ones who need to save the world from xykon - otherwise they have no reason to exist in the first place.

If Tarquin beats them, then who needs them? He can go head to head with Xykon on his own. He doesn't want the world to fall under a lich either.

Just like it was important to establish that Roy and co were stronger than Hinjo and Miko to establish their portion of the defense of Azure city, it is important to make sure the Order prevails over Tarquin - one way or another.

They don't have to kill him, they don't have to outfight him - They do however, need to be the ones who walk off to the next gate with their head held high.

Otherwise, they aren't "the only ones" who can wrap this story up.

[Souhiro]

What if the MitD betrays Xykon?

We know Xykon has dominated the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon, but that's the only compulsion we know he has.

What if O'Chul's words to him, making him realize who his friends and enemies really are, helps and at a crucial moment the MitD turns on Xykon. Wouldn't have to be for long, in fact Xykon might be the only person who could defeat the MitD. . .but it would be a very powerful and very unexpected distraction at a key moment, maybe even one that could do a lot of damage to Xykon in that one round before he could react.

Man, he should snap only after eating Redcloak, or aftes having eaten 3/4 of redcloak, the bare minimum for it to keep living, but being crippled and unable to cast spells anymore. THEN, he would torture Red to death. Many times. AND THEN he would go on Xykon, and torture him to death many times, too.

[infomatic]

Sorry, I missed that. My bad.
Still, I see no reason to assume there's a TPK going to happen

I don't assume it either, but there's at least one reason why a TPK might be coming: Rich Burlew likes playing around with D&D conventions, and a Total Party Kill is one of those that he hasn't explored yet.

I suspect that, while the idea has some potential, it wouldn't be worth the trouble it takes to separate the characters into their respective afterlifes (especially as he's already done afterlifes) and get them together again.
And a big catch is Durkon. Vampires can't be raised and he doesn't have a coffin to retreat to, so he has to survive this fight.

As for "… the rift": I'd agree that it's too far away, but there are ways around that.

[Ermete]

If you're going to eat it, a soul is refreshment and snacks.





I was referring to the image of the Snarl coming out from the rift and telling the OotS to go and stop Xykon... whatever... :D

Truth is I cannot for see a viable way out...beside some super-awesome trick from Haley...but I cannot imagine what she can actually do...

I think that the rift is out of discussion...too far away...it would be really weird to have them engage a battle near the rift and not seing all the soldiers around.

TPK seems kind of "too much"...but again...maybe this is what will happen...

[orrion]

Though I'm against it still, if Rich has them going through the rift at this point - I'll admit it's justified now. The degree to which they're screwed is much higher.

Anyone else willing to bend on this point?

Might as well say they should jump through the rift in Azure City.

It's just as impossible in the current situation.

[StLordeth]

If they do, it's because for some reason Tarquin throws them into the rift. I can see that happening with Roy/Durk/Belk/V. Haley and Elan staying here. Next book will be about the four members in the rift, and Haley/Elan resolving the Ian/Tarquin issue.

But they are probably not going on their own accord, Roy already stated he refused to take that risk.

[pendell]

I think the giant's playing with us. As Kish said, the rift is a long way away.

There are only TWO sequences of events that allows them to escape through the rift, and that is if Haley is somehow able to force Laurin to open a wormhole from the current location to the rift, then have the party jump through.

How a rogue forces an epic-level psion to do ANYTHING is utterly beyond me.

Another possibility is that, rather than *force* Laurin to open such a wormhole, Haley *tricks* Laurin into doing so. If Haley can somehow convince Tarquin that the Portal is the OOTS equivalent of the Sarlacc , Tarquin may be persuaded to play the part of Jabba. Why kill someone if Elan has them resurrected? Why, the easiest way to prevent that -- if Laurin for some bizarre reason can't use disintegrate -- is to throw their bodies into the rift SO THAT THEIR SOUL MAY BE DESTROYED FOREVER! MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAH!

I can see that appealing to someone like Tarquin. But Haley would need a natural 20 on her bluff check to pull it off.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Menarker]

I think the giant's playing with us. As Kish said, the rift is a long way away.

There are only TWO sequences of events that allows them to escape through the rift, and that is if Haley is somehow able to force Laurin to open a wormhole from the current location to the rift, then have the party jump through.

How a rogue forces an epic-level psion to do ANYTHING is utterly beyond me.

Another possibility is that, rather than *force* Laurin to open such a wormhole, Haley *tricks* Laurin into doing so. If Haley can somehow convince Tarquin that the Portal is the OOTS equivalent of the Sarlacc , Tarquin may be persuaded to play the part of Jabba. Why kill someone if Elan has them resurrected? Why, the easiest way to prevent that -- if Laurin for some bizarre reason can't use disintegrate -- is to throw their bodies into the rift SO THAT THEIR SOUL MAY BE DESTROYED FOREVER! MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAH!

I can see that appealing to someone like Tarquin. But Haley would need a natural 20 on her bluff check to pull it off.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Haley could use the Briar Patch scam of pleading not to throw their weakened party into the rift, which would destroy their souls and prevent them from being resurrected, and Tarquin would probably throw them in to be cruel and to "ensure" that Roy is never resurrected by Elan.

Recall that Tarquin knows of the Rift by Nale, who had told him what he knew of the Rift via Lord Shoujo. However, that info is presumably inaccurate based on what V has discovered, but Tarquin doesn't know that.

So Haley could trick Tarquin into letting them go by trying to request not to give them the wost and most definatively final execution possible. In Tarquin's eyes, it is within his own self interest to throw them in to get Elan to forget about Roy because there is no point trying to res someone who is erased from existence.

The problem with this would be that Elan wouldn't be included. Although Elan could jump in at the last second. Although this would mean that Tarquin would suspect a scam and follow after them...

However...if up to this point, Ian Starshine, coincidently in the desert area sees his daughter being tossed in execution style by Tarquin and his nearby dastardly son, and thus takes revenge by throwing Elan. (Which would help the OotS out, but leave Haley distraught since it would mean that Tarquin would go berserk on Ian for completely destroying his son and he'd probably kill Ian... Unless Tarquin throws Ian in the rift too, unwittingly keeping him safe and preserving the illusion of the OotS being done for.)

[Kish]

Haley could use the Briar Patch scam of pleading not to throw their weakened party into the rift, which would destroy their souls and prevent them from being resurrected, and Tarquin would probably throw them in to be cruel and to "ensure" that Roy is never resurrected by Elan.
More likely, Tarquin would say, "I'm familiar with the story of Brer Rabbit and the Briar Patch, thanks."

It's easy to overestimate Tarquin, but it's important not to forget his genre-savviness, either.

[ThePhantasm]

Plus, Haley still doesn't know for sure that the rift won't destroy their souls.

[ThePhantasm]

:roy: "Shojo said that the Snarl destroys souls. If there's even a chance that's true... no, we can't take the risk." (920 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html))

You can't do the whole Brer Rabbit trick using a briar patch that might actually, for all you know, still erase you from existence.

EDIT: Did someone just delete their comment? Because when I started writing this one there was a comment there... and now there isn't...

[Menarker]

Well, Haley might feel differently from Roy. She might feel that when all practical and reliable means are gone, it's better to swing for the fence.

I did had a comment earlier, but when I doublechecked its validity it was found lacking.

[The Oni]

Belkar should be out, or just plain dead (It depends if Tarquin was willing to use his Improved Unarmed Strike, a feat that he has, since it's prequesite to Snatch Arrows)

It's unlikely he's dead. Meta suggests it would be a really bad time for him to die, and also Tarquin would not be likely to strike to kill any of his son's other friends (remember, he wants his son to be a leader, so killing ALL his friends is a bad idea).

[NerdyKris]

Even without meta, he's in better shape than Malack was, given that he has an elf in a robe on top of him, might be able to use his stone shape/walk spell again, and it's clearly almost sunset.

[orrion]

Even without meta, he's in better shape than Malack was, given that he has an elf in a robe on top of him, might be able to use his stone shape/walk spell again, and it's clearly almost sunset.

a) It's Meld Into Stone, not Hide In The Sand.

b) "I got naught fer magic."

[factotum]

I had a thought about this. I think it's pretty clear the Order aren't going through that rift under their own power. However, what if they're FORCED through it? What if Laurin's favour turns out to be: "Tarquin, don't kill them! Let's see what happens if we throw them into that weird portal thing we saw back there.". It would certainly explain why her favour is something that apparently only just occurred to her while she was standing in the middle of a desert miles from anywhere...

[Bulldog Psion]

I had a thought about this. I think it's pretty clear the Order aren't going through that rift under their own power. However, what if they're FORCED through it? What if Laurin's favour turns out to be: "Tarquin, don't kill them! Let's see what happens if we throw them into that weird portal thing we saw back there.". It would certainly explain why her favour is something that apparently only just occurred to her while she was standing in the middle of a desert miles from anywhere...

That seems like about the only way for them to get through the Rift at this point. Mind you, it doesn't seem impossible.

[Kish]

I don't think Laurin's favor is likely to be, "Give up what you're asking me for a favor for, Roy Greenhilt definitely dead," or that Tarquin is likely to go full-on Bond Villain and decide that thrown through a mysterious rift is as good as dead.

Besides, she already pinned Roy down, and just told Tarquin to go ahead and kill him, remember? (Nor is her approach to Durkon one compatible with particularly wanting to capture him undead.)

[Jay R]

... or that Tarquin is likely to go full-on Bond Villain ...

Actually, suggesting going full-on Bond Villain is the only argument that might be meaningful to Tarquin.

[Kish]

If I could remember the name of any Bond villain off the top of my head, I might agree with that. :smalltongue:

(In case this is unclear, it is my position that part of the definition of a Bond villain is utterly forgettable and overshadowed by the hero, and that Tarquin would see it that way, too.)

[orrion]

I had a thought about this. I think it's pretty clear the Order aren't going through that rift under their own power. However, what if they're FORCED through it? What if Laurin's favour turns out to be: "Tarquin, don't kill them! Let's see what happens if we throw them into that weird portal thing we saw back there.". It would certainly explain why her favour is something that apparently only just occurred to her while she was standing in the middle of a desert miles from anywhere...

You usually only ask for the fulfillment of a favor after the objectives of it have been completed. Tarquin's condition is that Laurin help him kill Roy. It'd be a little silly if she called in her favor before Roy is dead.

[rodneyAnonymous]

If I could remember the name of any Bond villain off the top of my head, I might agree with that. :smalltongue:

Several Bond stories are named after the villain (e.g. Dr. No, Goldfinger), so that doesn't make the point you want so much as "I am not very familiar with James Bond." :P

Being forgettable and overshadowed by the hero is true of some Bond villains, but I don't think it reflects reality to say that is part of the definition.

[Bulldog Psion]

You usually only ask for the fulfillment of a favor after the objectives of it have been completed. Tarquin's condition is that Laurin help him kill Roy. It'd be a little silly if she called in her favor before Roy is dead.

That is a really good point. Clearly, her favor does not involve, or concern itself with, Roy's living or dying.

[Peelee]

If I could remember the name of any Bond villain off the top of my head, I might agree with that. :smalltongue:

(In case this is unclear, it is my position that part of the definition of a Bond villain is utterly forgettable and overshadowed by the hero, and that Tarquin would see it that way, too.)

Blofeld (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Stavro_Blofeld) would disagree. Also, the best Bond film was named after the villain (Dr. No, since you are clearly not a die-hard Bond fan). Trevelyan was also a wonderful villain, and of course the series did have its fair share of ridiculous villains - Zorin and Baron Samedi spring readily to mind - but c'mon here... Blofeld is practically a cultural icon.

[Kish]

Blofeld (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Stavro_Blofeld) would disagree. Also, the best Bond film was named after the villain (Dr. No, since you are clearly not a die-hard Bond fan).

I'm not, but also, I think Tarquin would want his name to be automatically familiar even to people who aren't "die-hard Elan fans."


Trevelyan was also a wonderful villain, and of course the series did have its fair share of ridiculous villains - Zorin and Baron Samedi spring readily to mind - but c'mon here... Blofeld is practically a cultural icon.
Okay. I suspect an unacceptably (to Tarquin) high number of people considering him less important than Bond is encoded in that "practically," but I certainly can't prove it; Tarquin could easily automatically sympathize with Baron Harkonnen when he reads Dune, as Belkar did, and not understand in the least why anyone would view it differently.

[Peelee]

I'm not, but also, I think Tarquin would want his name to be automatically familiar even to people who aren't "die-hard Elan fans."

I could argue the Bond analogy a bit more, but I'll take the point as you meant it. You are indeed correct.